girls lighting

Home Forums Yom Tov Chanukah girls lighting

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  • #601182

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    our family minhag is to have the girls light menorah. my sister is almost 5 and is starting this year. this year as chanukah came near, i had/have a funny feeling. i don’t feel like i want to physically light the menorah. i don’t know why or where this came from but my heart is not feeling the urge to light like it has in other years.

    do i light because it is our minhag or can i say to my father, you know i think i am going to forgo lighting licht this year.

    opinions, ideas, thoughts?

    #911587

    Sam2
    Participant

    The Mitzvah is equally as incumbent upon women as on men.

    #911588

    sam4321
    Participant

    The Mishna Brura says that a woman is yotzai with the man of the house,but if she is by herself then she is mechuyav to light.He also says that if she wants to light then it is like any other mitzvas aseh sh’zman grama.See it here seif katan 9(http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14166&st=&pgnum=290&hilite=)

    #911589

    passfan
    Member

    Sam: Women are generally motzei with their husband/father.

    #911590

    Sam2
    Participant

    Passfan: A married couple are counted as one person for being yotzei Mehadrin Min Hamehadrin by lighting Channukah candles. That is strange enough in its own right. There is no reason whatsoever why a daughter who is a Bas Chiyuv should not light for herself. None. She has her own Mitzvah and if the family wants to actually do Mehadrin Min Hamehadrin then she has to light her own (or her father lights a whole extra Chanukiyah for her if you want to use the way some Rishonim bring down the Minhag).

    #911591

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    sam4321 –

    You seem to be misreading it. He does not say it is actually like a mitzvas asei shehazman grama, because in truth a woman has a real chiyuv. He is just making a conceptual comparison to allow her to make a bracha even when she is in fact being yotzei with her father/husband.

    #911592

    sam4321
    Participant

    Yitay:I am sorry for not being clear, that’s what I meant when I said if she is by herself she is mechuyav and with her father or husband like a zman grama.

    #911593

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    I hear. Got it.

    #911594

    hello99
    Member

    Sam2: it may seem strange to you, but it the accepted Halacha in Shulchan Aruch. Additionally, there is a clear Minhag for hundreds of years that single girls do not light. The Chasam Sofer addresses one possible reason.

    #911595

    apushatayid
    Participant

    It might be a “clear minhag” in some places that girls don’t light. In my family the girls do light, my wife does because she grew up doing it too.

    #911596

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “do i light because it is our minhag”

    To be safe, give a coin to your father so that you share in the mitzva.

    #911597

    Sam2
    Participant

    Hello: I’m not saying that it isn’t okay (there are plenty of strange things we do well within the framework of the Shulchan Aruch, the way we make Eruvim being a big one), I’m just saying that since it’s against the Gemara with no real hint in the Gemara, it’s enough that we stick just with Ishto K’gufo and not somehow apply that to daughters as well. And the only ones I know of who don’t have girls light is Chabad. Who else doesn’t?

    #911598

    miritchka
    Member

    I use to light until i felt like i shouldnt anymore and was yotzei with my father. Now, I am yotzei with my husband and my kdis are starting to light on their own! Its so exciting and bring backs such wonderful memories…

    #911599

    mamashtakah
    Member

    My daughters have always lit their own.

    #911600

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    BS”D

    Girls do not have to light.

    Boys do not have to light.

    The mitzva is ONE candle.

    The house (husband OR wife) should light, and is Yotze the other via Ishto K’Gufo (for example, the wife should light if the husband will be home late). If a high school girl will be the only one home at the Z’man, she should really be the one who lights, and is Yotze everyone else who lives in the house, including her parents.

    Mehadrin Min HaMihadrin is that (Al Pi the Rema) each member of the home lights (including girls). There is a valid minhag that all women of the home do not light (including girls over Bas Mitzva), but that is not like the Rema or the Mishna Berura (C”V that I am saying it is an issue, just the facts).

    Furthermore, (from what I understand, but ask your LOR) one should have in mind NOT to be Yotze with the head of the household if they will light at a later time, so that they will have not already been yotze & be making a brocha Livatala.

    Ask your LOR, & YMMV.

    P.S. There is (IMHO) absolutly no reason for a Ben (or Bas) Bayis to be Mistatef B’Priti (give a coin).

    PPS: Sam2, I believe it is a minhag Chassidus.

    #911601

    A Heimishe Mom
    Participant

    yenting: the best answer, is ask your father! maybe the minhag came about simply because you enjoyed doing it and isn’t really a mesorah at all!

    For all practical purposes, women/girls are generally yotzei with their father/husband. I think I remember lighting once – in Pre1A when we made a menorah in school. My daughters light their arts & craft ones. Once they stop those (1st grade I think) they stop lighting. My boys light.

    As to the lighting at the z’man, even below bar mitzvah boys should light then even if the baal habayis is not home yet (yes, we asked our LOR).

    #911602

    Sam2
    Participant

    GAW: Being Yotzei Mehadrin Min Hamehadrin could very well have the status of a Neder for most of K’lal Yisrael and you may need to be Mattir Neder if you want to be Yotzei just the basic Mitzvah.

    #911603

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    GAW: Being Yotzei Mehadrin Min Hamehadrin could very well have the status of a Neder for most of K’lal Yisrael and you may need to be Mattir Neder if you want to be Yotzei just the basic Mitzvah.

    Really! Source?

    #911604

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    As to the lighting at the z’man, even below bar mitzvah boys should light then even if the baal habayis is not home yet (yes, we asked our LOR).

    I hear. However, no one else is Yotze by that lighting, so that wasn’t my point. It is a good point none the less.

    #911605

    Sam2
    Participant

    GAW: I don’t have one but it’s very Mistaber. It’s no less than a Minhag Tovah that you’ve done 3 times in a row or Devarim Hamutarim Sheacheirim Nahagu Bahem Issur.

    #911606

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    GAW: I don’t have one but it’s very Mistaber. It’s no less than a Minhag Tovah that you’ve done 3 times in a row or Devarim Hamutarim Sheacheirim Nahagu Bahem Issur.

    OK. When you find a source, get back to me. Meantime, SA & MB say you are Yotze (not that it is “Mehadrin min HaMihadrin” or anything 🙂

    #911607

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Some posters here (including the OP) have cited “something not feeling right” as their reason for not wanting to light chanukah licht. I’m kinda curious (and confused) – why exactly did you feel that way? I mean, I’m a girl who lights, and I can only imagine feeling weird NOT lighting (since my whole family does).

    #911608

    passfan
    Member

    If their mesorah is that girls don’t light, it is very understandable that a girl will feel something wrong by them lighting (and thus going against the mesorah).

    #911609

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    oooookkkkk thanx e/o for the halacha class. not really what i had in mind…..

    oneofmany, i can’t really explain it. i kinda always had a part of me that didnt want to light cuz i was minority of minority in my class that lit. this year, i don’t know. i feel like i would appreciate it more if i didn’t light. (side point, my younger siblings make it a contest who can sing better so it got trivialized in my house)

    i told my father i didn’t want to light this year and he was fine w/ it.

    #911610

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    passfan: I’m talking about someone whose mesorah is that they DO light.

    yentingyenta: Still don’t get it, but you’re entitled to your feelings. 🙂

    #911611

    hello99
    Member

    Regarding a lack of Mehadrin; the Meiri, Shiltei Giborim and Magen Avraham all write that it is only necessary for adult children to light and not minors. There is no need to indicate the total number of people in the house to fulfill Mehadrin, only those obligated. The Mikraei Kodesh quoted above suggests that the same exemption should apply to girls and women.

    #911612

    hello99
    Member

    sam2: I have to object to calling Halachos in the Gemara and Shulchan Aruch “strange”!!!

    #911613

    passfan
    Member

    hello99: Do you use the bar illan cd to find sources, go by your own phenomimal memory, or have some other method of finding all the relevant sources? Thanks

    #911614

    Sam2
    Participant

    Hello: By “strange” I meant Halachos in the Shulchan Aruch and later Poskim that are accepted yet don’t quite seem to follow from the Gemara and/or Rishonim. I didn’t mean strange is in illogical. And the Gemara says “Af Hein Hayu Be’oso Hanes”. What better source do you need for women to light?

    #911615

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    oneofmany, it would help if i myself understood my own feelings!

    #911616

    hello99
    Member

    sam: I understand, but still feel it is disrespectful

    #911617

    hello99
    Member

    passfan: I don’t have Bar Ilan

    #911618

    Sam2
    Participant

    Hello: That’s okay. I’ve been told I speak disrespectfully in learning my whole life. I think I’ve only actually crossed a proper line of respect once.

    #911619

    plumba
    Member

    I’m confused. Shouldn’t the most important factor be whether or not her father is makpid? She did say the minhag of the family is to light. If her father is makpid it is a d’oyrassa of kibbud av.

    #911620

    winny1
    Participant

    when in my house my daughter always lit her own but after she was married her husband said his minhag is that the husband lights and it includes her so she should not light.

    #911621

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Yenta why do u think its this particular mitzvah that is giving you trouble? do u have a bad memory associated with chanukah?

    If its just this mitzvah there must be a reason why and if its not just this mitzvah then maybe there is a deeper issue.

    #911622

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    goq, that’s the problem! i don’t know why i feel this way but i only feel like this towards this one mitzvah. B”H i have only happy memories of chanuka. i don’t know why i’m having such ambivalent feelings about lighting this year. when i went to sem and was boarding, i don’t think i lit bit when i went to my cousins in chicago for shabbos chanukah… oh great now i don’t remember if i lit there or not. but i remember in sem like it wasnt chanuka cuz i didn’t light. uuurrrrr now i feel like i’m going to start crying cuz i’m so frustrated!!!!!!!!!!!

    #911623

    Sam2
    Participant

    GAW: I had someone ask Rav Schachter for me today. He said it’s not a Neder because that’s how the Mitzvah D’rabannan was framed. So I guess I’m outgunned on this.

    #911624

    TheGoq
    Participant

    I say light on the first night if that doesnt put you in proper mood let your father do it the rest of the nights. I hope you can rekindle your appreciation of this mitzvah.

    #911625

    passfan
    Member

    hello99: How do you find all the sources for an issue?

    #911626

    ultrajew94
    Member

    im pretty sure that my rav paskened women are halachikly unable of holding anything related at all to a mitzvah. its a genetic thing

    #911627

    pbj223
    Member

    i’m not sure who your rav is, but he is wrong. are you conservative?

    #911629

    babygoose
    Participant

    well. my family also had this minhag, and my 18 yr old sis would put up a fit, how it doesn’t make sense and she’s os embaressed about it… till my dear grandpa spoke to her and explained to her the shitah we hold and why this is what we do, and after she gets married iy”h she will not havta light cuz “ishto kegufo”

    from that day on…. all was quiet

    #911631

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    hello99: Doesn’t change the Shulchan Aruch that says that girls should light for Mehadrin Min Hamehadrin (Minors would be Chinuch only, not a cheleck of the mitzva of the home). I’m not saying there is not a valid minhag for girls not to light, but “new custom”? Do you consider the SA “new”?

    BTW, have you ever seen that Chasam Sofer inside? Interesting S’vara, no?

    Sam2: Thanks for asking.

    OneOfMany: I would think that we are talking about older (dating) girls, who feel bad that they are not part of “Ishto K’Gufo”. That would certainly trump any reason to light.

    #911632

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    BTW, have you ever seen that Chasam Sofer inside? Interesting S’vara, no?

    I have seen it inside (not recently, though). IIRC, it wasn’t a sevara, rather, a historical basis for the minhag.

    #911633

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I have seen it inside (not recently, though). IIRC, it wasn’t a sevara, rather, a historical basis for the minhag.

    Or post-facto justification. It wouldn’t be the first time that an Achron justified a questionable minhag.

    #911634

    passfan
    Member

    gavra: your lack of understanding a long established minhag in klal yisroel, doesn’t make it a questionable minhag.

    #911635

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    passfan: Of course not. None the less, it still has to be justified in Halacha. The Chasam Sofer sees the need to justify it, not me.

    Perhaps it was a bad choice of words. Replace “questionable” with “incomprehensible, at first glance”. Questionable infers that the Minhag is not valid, vs. not having any reasoning behind it.

    #911636

    passfan
    Member

    The Chasam Sofer was probably providing a teshuva to a shaila presented to him asking if females should light on Chanuka. That isn’t him “seeing a need to justify” the minhag, but rather him simply answering a shaila and explaining the teshuva.

    #911637

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    The Chasam Sofer was probably providing a teshuva to a shaila presented to him asking if females should light on Chanuka.

    Someone didn’t read the Chasam Sofer. Read it and get back to me.

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