July 25, 2012 7:51 am at 7:51 am #1181977HaLeiViParticipant
They never realize that they are changing themselves to conform to another group and not even choosing to just be themselves. Go figure.
This reminds me of the Chovas Hatalmidim:
???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????. ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????, ??? ????? ?????.
????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????, ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?????.
Take a look how strange it is that someone would be inflicted with both opposite shortcomings, the lack of self identification and haughtiness and being too proud.
Since he doesn’t actually think for himself, and he’s merely bowing to the whole world, he took on this behavior as well. He then rebels against his teachers and parents.July 25, 2012 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #1181978
aries- couldn’t agree with you more.
no matter how many people try to change this situation, it has not happened.
When finally someone opens a yeshiva and allows all to enroll only the troubled ones go and the yeshiva gets a name- oh this yeshiva is for ‘bums’ or other colorful adjectives..July 25, 2012 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #1181979a maminParticipant
Aries: I have never read a more touching and beautiful thread like yours yesterday.July 25, 2012 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #1181980
WOW, he is a sixteen year old blinded by pain and too immature to understand. He doesn’t see the obvious, he only knows the pain that he feels and wants to do whatever he can to shed it. When I asked the question of the kids I was working with the look of shock and awe on their faces was quite telling. One girl who had a very combative relationship with her mom and kept saying “why can’t she respect me for who I am and the way I dress?” So I asked her, let me ask you something. You didn’t used to dress this way. You changed the way you dressed and basically who you were to fit in with your friends. Why? Why didn’t THEY respect you for who you were and how you dressed? Why didn’t they accept you just the way you were?
You could see the light bulb go off over her head. The relationship with her mother starting changing slowly afterward. She didn’t change her way of dressing, just her attitude toward her mother.July 25, 2012 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #1181981
aries2756-you get right to the punch, and it’s good that she heard you. But if a kid is immature, like my son is unfortunately, then he would only get defensive if I were to say something like that. I think a kid has to be at a certain maturity to be able to ‘hear’ and accept what you said. Does it pay to say things like that now when my son’s not able to accept it, hoping it will somehow sink in? Or do I have to wait for maturity to kick in?July 25, 2012 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1181982
WOW, you can’t say it at all. Unfortunately, he has to hear it from someone else. Kids are much more willing to accept a message that comes from another party rather than when it comes from their parents. They are closed off to what their parents have to say, and many times don’t even hear the words. They only hear and accept words of comfort and love and will not even allow criticism or suggestion to filter through to their brains. Those messages have to be relayed through a third party and that is ok. Right now your job is to offer him the love and comfort that he needs from you and not any form of correction.July 26, 2012 5:38 am at 5:38 am #1181983
Here -to help- please give advice for Shabbos, what to do, what not to do. And the next step in ‘twisted parenting’….July 26, 2012 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #1181984
OK, I’m glad to see you’re ready to continue. I’m assuming you reviewed our previous posts and prerequisites. Though I cannot offer any guarantees, I can say, this method has such an overwhelming success rate that if you don’t see results fairly quickly (within 90 days) then you are not doing it right 🙂
As a parent of course you want to be helpful. What you can do to help him right now is only one thing: find ways to keep him happy and to feel good about himself!
By showing that you APPROVE OF HIM on the low level that he is at right now, you give him the COURAGE to think that maybe just maybe he can be something!July 26, 2012 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1181985
The slightest bit of negativity or pressure from you will destroy your chance to see the miraculous affect that TWiSTED PARENTiNG can have on your child.
You are playing for keeps.
There is NO room for error!
(1) You realize that your child is emotionally wounded and suffering terribly.
(3) You agree that your child has the Halachic status of a ???? ??? , an emotionally sick person, and is therefore ???? from Torah and Mitzvos.
(5) You agree to STOP any and all parenting, controlling and setting rules and boundaries, because doing those things will NOT bring you the desired results.
If you do not agree wholeheartedly that ALL of the above is applicable to your child, then please let me know since what I will write does not apply to your situation.July 26, 2012 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #1181986
here to help-no problem with 1-4. Does #5 mean he’s not allowed to know that we’d like him home at a decent time? We don’t enforce it obviously, but usually before he leaves the house, I’ll say that I love him, and please try to pay attention to the time. Should I stop?July 26, 2012 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #1181987
WOW, I would not stop because it shows that you care but you might think of a way to do it that is not a challenge to him. Such as ” I hope to go to bed by…, you know I worry about you and can’t really sleep until you are home, could you please call me at “x” time, so I can hear your voice and know your ok?”. Of course that doesn’t apply to Shabbos. You can also have the discussion about sharing your key. Sharing your key would also make you a “team” in a sense, at least in this issue.
There is another challenge this week which might surprise you. Do you think he will participate or ignore Tisha b’av?July 26, 2012 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #1181988
Some of aries suggestion is good, i would leave out when you hope he will be in bed and do not specify any time to call. just let him know that he can always call you if he needs anything or to be picked up (in any condition at any time)if he calls on Shabbos I would assume that it is an emergency and you should answer, but you would need to ask your Rav (providing that you explain the situation in detail). If you find yourself worried about him at any time you can txt him a smiley face 🙂 but ONLY a smiley face.July 26, 2012 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #1181989
aries2756-the funny thing is, every once in a while he does something ‘religious’. I’m guessing he’ll probably fast and be on the computer all day, or sleep. But go out with the chevra at night, as usual.
here to help-our phone is disconnected on Shabbos. I’ll try to rephrase my language so he doesn’t feel any pressure. Thanks for all the suggestions, we’re in agreement and ready for further instructions…July 26, 2012 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #1181990
The core fundamental principle of TWiSTED PARENTiNG:
regular, normal, straight mussar; rebuke will HURT them, increase their emotional pain and cause them to REBEL MORE!
?????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???????? ??????? “
???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????.”
?????? ???? ??? ?’ ?? ?”?
The NESIVOS SHALOM explains that the single factor that must define everything that we do, must be: Will this bring me CLOSER to Hashem or will it push me away. Internalizing this simple concept will lead you to a life of closeness to Hashem.
In the very same way; when it comes to your child, the single factor that must define EVERYTHING that you do, must be: Will this bring me CLOSER to my child or will it push me away from him?
If it will bring you CLOSER to your child then you MUST DO IT! And if it will push you AWAY from your child then you MUST NOT DO IT!July 27, 2012 6:56 am at 6:56 am #1181991
here to help-He wants me to buy him cigarettes, so according to what you said, I should? Isn’t there any limit to this line of reasoning? He also wants hard liquor every once in a while.
Also, the more time he spends with his chevra, the more distant and disconnected/angry he is with us. If ‘the sky’s the limit’ in how much time he can spend with these kids, how will he ever come close to us again?
I hope we have a peaceful Shabbos.July 27, 2012 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #1181992
my son buys his own cigarettes or gets from ‘friends’
When he has enough money he buys strong liquor as well.
He once finished a pretty large bottle in 1 shabbos..
here to help- I am following your instruction as well..
only thing dad is not on the same page as me.. so I hope it does not backfire..
Thanx- Gutt ShabbosJuly 27, 2012 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #1181993
to all who are following – it is important not to jump into this in the middle, go back a page or 2 and review the posts.
w.o.w. – yes, you should buy him cigarettes, but there is a specific way to do it, so hold on we’re almost there. Second, through the steps you’re about to take, your relationship should improve greatly and you will begin to spend a lot more time with him. As a result he will automatically start to spend less time with his “chevra”
mom12 – you must get your husband on board, let him read the last few pages of posts and if he has any questions I will try to answer them.
After Shabbos, B’N, B’H; I will tell you exactly how to do this.
Good Shabbos ALL!July 27, 2012 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #1181994
WOW, I don’t believe in buying them cigarettes. It is a terrible habit, one that is very difficult to break. I refer to them as cancer sticks and I would not help him kill himself. I watched my own child struggle many times over trying to break this habit . B”H he did but when he was very stressed out in the past he would foolishly pick it up again and then stress himself out till he stopped again.
I would say instead “if I didn’t love you as much as I do, I would buy you the cigarettes. But they are a nasty habit. One that can’t be shaken easily and is harmful to you. I can’t contribute to something that can hurt you.”
Cigarettes are a gateway drug. It is the first step into other substances and I am sorry to disagree with here to help, but I do. You do have to draw the line and that is not helping them harm themselves and also not breaking the law. Here in the states you have to be 18 to buy cigarettes and 21 to buy alcohol. Parents do not have to break the law to show that they love their kids. Role modeling that they have to abide by the rules on the other hand and not breaking the law (at any time) shows kids that their parents are not hypocrites.July 27, 2012 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #1181995
here to help-Thank-you, and good Shabbos everyone..July 29, 2012 8:20 am at 8:20 am #1181997
here to help-By the way, in an effort to be sensitive to my son’s feelings of wanting cigarettes, my husband bought him the electric ones, thinking they aren’t harmful like the regular ones. But my son used it on Shabbos, and my husband now feels like he was a shaliach for him breaking Shabbos. If he had smoked the regular ones on Shabbos, it would be on my son’s cheshbon, but…July 29, 2012 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #1181998
Interesting that he used the cigarettes that your husband bought him on shabbos. Sometimes I get my daughter a mani/pedi certificate but since I bought it for her she does not use them on Shabbos.
I agree with aries2756. Do not buy him cigarettes or liquor. On the other hand, get him something that is good for him, a healthy outlet. For example if he likes to work out, get him a gym membership or weights, etc.July 29, 2012 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1181999
aries2756-I have to agree with you, it feels dishonest to buy him cigarettes.
here to help-I’m wondering if ‘twisted parenting’ is for every type of kid, across the board? If the child is manipulative and controling, dosn’t it just reinforce those middos, and not change him? And I’m wondering how many parents can actually put this into practice…
Friday night, my son stayed out the whole night, and came back during the Shabbos morning seuda. What he put me and my husband through that whole night, I can’t describe. Needless to say, we barely slept the whole night, and both of us wanted to just throw him out. He came home drunk (first time), and was EXTREMELY nasty and chutzpadik to us in front of the kids. I’m sure neither of us reacted the way you would have suggested. Motzei Shabbos, he told me he was going out all night again, and to leave the door unlocked so he could come in. I said, ‘if you come home at a reasonable time, the door will be open. Otherwise, it will be locked”. He came home around 2:00am. Last week, some kids and Rebbes from his old yeshiva contacted him, and we were happy that they seemed to be trying to maintain a connection with him. We had also gone to look at a couple of low pressure yeshivos, and he was thinking to go to one of them! On Shabbos, however, after spending endless hours with his chevra, he reverted back to his angry rejection of everything, and told us he’s not going/doing anything. At this point, my husband and I are starting to feel that our priority has to be the other kids. My son is on a downward spiral, and will bring all my other children down with him if he continues to live with us. We are considering locking him out of the house if he doesn’t conform, and letting him find his own way, whatever that means. We have tried endlessly to help him and to close our eyes to things, but his response is so nasty. We are hardly available to our other kids, bc we are always preoccupied,talking, praying, crying, over him. He has threatened to bring down each of our kids, and I don’t take his threat lightly. My husband is worried that we are helping to feed his anger and misbehavior by pulling back on our control, rules and boundaries. If you read my previous posts, you’d know that I never thought I would ever consider throwing my son out of the house. And I’m crying as I write this, but I’m starting to come to terms with the fact that I lost a child, and I just can’t bear to lose any more..July 29, 2012 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #1182000
WOW- I’m sorry to hear what you went thru..
I’m curious to see what hth will say…July 29, 2012 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #1182001
w.o.w. – twisted parenting is not for every type of child; But the child you’re describing is the perfect candidate. Though you may be feeling that you are not being “FAIR” to your other children, keep in mind FAIR doesn’t always mean EQUAL. Fair means giving each child what he/she NEEDS and right now your son NEEDS you more than the others. I’m not saying to neglect your other children but if they are normal HEALTHY children, they will understand. It seems I need to remind you of something.
Your child is sick and is in grave danger! But what is the SINGLE BIGGEST DANGER TO HIM RIGHT NOW? Drugs? Alcohol? Bad friends?
Those are certainly all terrible things, however the single biggest threat to his future is:
Why? Because you have the DEEPEST ACCESS to his very being!
Believe it or not, you have a tremendous power over him FOR GOOD OR BAD; lets try to use this power to heal him.July 29, 2012 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #1182002
here to help-He already feels those things. He said he hates his life and hates us, has threatened to use drugs, join a gang, get a tatoo and become a criminal. He has become the complete antithesis of anything we might have expected he’d become. All my kids tell me that we always ‘favored’ him, gave him more, said yes more..and still do! And they’re right, bc he ‘s the bachur, and we adored him! But for some crooked reason, he never felt it. My husband and I would die for him, and yet he has told us he wishes we would die…
We had an agreement that I would give him my computer, and he would come home at a reasonable hour, and speak to us with derech eretz. After giving in so many times, even though he spoke terrible to us, and cursed, and came home late, I still gave him the computer. But terrible mother that I am, I had a limit. And when he stayed out all night and pranced in cursing us at the shabbos table in front of our kids, and embarrased us in front of our neighbors bc he hangs out sometimes in front of our building with his loud obnoxious chevra, I took away the computer. I can’t write what he said to me, bc the mods won’t let it through. I’ll just hint that if I suddenly stop writing, you’ll know that it’s bc he gave in to his anger in the most extreme way.
Even today, when he told me that he knows that I hate him (bc I am saying no to the computer), I told him that me and his father have been loving him for 16 years, and we are so sad that he doesn’t feel it. I told him that I would do anything to help him, but that this time, he went too far…that even his chevra would not be his friends if he treated them the way he treats us. My daughter just told me that the reason he wants the computer is so that he can put things on his USB, and then give it to the chevra, making him a ‘big man’ with the crowd. I’m not sure I want to make him ‘Mr. Popularity’ with his street crowd. Do you still think he should stay at home? And probably, you think I should give him the computer, right?July 29, 2012 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #1182003No One Mourns The WickedMember
Your son is angry, sad, confused and probably doesn’t really know what he wants right now. As here to help said, you are his hope. Don’t throw him away, who will he have? Where will he go? As angry as you and your husband feel right now, remember that every parent loves their child unconditionally. You never want to look back at this time and regret your actions.
I’ve noticed that there is a lot of therapy bashing in the YWCCR. I am a student clinician with a strong background in psychology and it makes me sick to read some of the muckraking.
Love your son despite your ripped heart. Try to forge a connection. It doesn’t have to be a spritual one, just any connection will do. Don’t lose your son.July 29, 2012 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #1182004
He is too young to be kicked out of the house. He has no way to support himself and make it on his own. Who knows what will happen to him.
I say wait and be patient. In the winter the bad chevrah won’t be hanging out all night.July 29, 2012 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #1182005
No One Mourns The Wicked- I do love my son, with all my heart. But where is he? As much as I was angry on Shabbos, more than that, I am completely broken from the pain of this. He told me he hates his life, but I am hating mine as well. Yes, I cried all Tisha B’Av, like one who is mourning the destruction of the Temple, bc I am in mourning too! But I also cried on Shabbos. It’s almost impossible to forge a connection with him bc any time I try to talk to him, he screams that he doesn’t want to hear me, and he continues to listen to his music. When the fast was over today, I went and brought him (in his bed) something to drink, bc he fasted. He refused it, saying he doesn’t want it. I am at the point of giving up. My husband reads the whole book of tehillim for him EVERY DAY, and I pray as well. But I’m thinking of stopping everything. For all the time I put in praying for him, things have just gotten much much worse. I feel like I lost..July 29, 2012 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #1182006
Imaof3-I am not ‘kicking’ him out of the house. He has the choice to come home at a reasonable hour and sleep in his bed. And he has told us many times that he does have a place to sleep if we ‘throw’ him out. I’m not sure we can wait for the winter. Each day is gehennom, and here in Israel the winter doesn’t get cold until January. The question ‘who knows what will happen to him’ is the big question. Maybe something good will happen, or maybe something bad will happen that will lead to a change. (I might be willing to take the risk). Part of me thinks that he can’t hold on indefinitely to the fantasy that we were terrible parents. I keep thinking, that at some point he will miss our love, and all the good memories will start to kick in.July 29, 2012 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #1182007
I’m impressed that he fasted on Tisha B’av. Don’t give up, hang in there. Also, are you in touch with a Rov about this situation?July 29, 2012 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #1182008
Imaof3-We are more in touch with a therapist, but my husband does speak to the Rav periodically. That’s what I mean, every once in a while, he does something ‘religious’. In fact, even though he smokes on Shabbos, he still puts on Tefillin.July 29, 2012 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #1182009
I know exactly what you’re going through (been there). You’re situation is far from hopeless; believe it or not I’ve seen and heard much worse than what you’re experiencing and it wasn’t too late.
It seems that a lot of your giving to your son had some kind of attachment or condition to it. Remember, we are trying to show UNCONDITIONAL love and like. I’m on my way to shul now but I felt I had to stop and answer.
You need to start being twisted ASAP, B’N after I break my fast I will try to show you how.July 29, 2012 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #1182010
You allow him to put on tefillin?July 29, 2012 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #1182011
WOW, firstly as I am still fasting and weak, I can feel your pain and understand everything that you are saying. It is a terrible parsha to be in and one no parent should ever go through. Our children are our life, our reason for living, being, breathing, eating. They bring light into an otherwise dark world, and here in the parsha you feel the darkness with each confrontation and each step in the wrong direction. I hear you loud and clear and feel the agony that brings you here for help.
I wish I could tell you otherwise but I can’t. It is going to get much worse before it gets better. You and your husband will have to brace yourselves and hold on to your hats. It is almost likes surfing sometimes you glide in and sometimes you the waves get you. One thing I have to say is that you can’t give up on him nor can you throw him away. You will never forgive yourselves if you do and he doesn’t deserve it. He is not a bad kid, only a kid going through a very bad situation. He is frustrated and confused and believe it or not he is doing everything he is supposed to in his situation. He is doing everything every other kid does. It is pretty much a textbook story. How each set of parents handle it is the unknown in the situation.
I believe that kids need boundaries and that one needs to promote the concept of RESPECT. Try and keep that in the forefront. I don’t agree with handing over everything he wants and I feel that your husband actually came up with a very creative solution to the cigarette saga, so kudos to him. He is NOT responsible how and when he uses them, so please tell him not to go there. It was extremely clever of him.
He is going to get drunk because that is what kids do to ease the pain. They want to be numb. They do it to be “cool” to their friends but the effect is that they don’t feel anything and they are out of it. That is what they are looking for, not to think and not to feel; not to remember and not to plan. Believe me he wouldn’t like himself or recognize himself drunk.
I don’t feel the need to allow him to boss you around or to tell you whats what nor to make the rules in your home. Everything is a matter of choices and you speak in the language of choice. You gave him a choice when you told him that he had a choice to come home at a decent hour at which time the door would be open, if not the door would be locked. He tested you and he got in. Thats fine. He came home drunk and he should have been directed to his room to sleep it off. I would say “If you choose to get drunk that is a choice only you have control over, but the rest of us do not have to suffer the consequences of your choice. Go sleep it off in your bed or take a shower first, you will feel better”. You might also say and use your son’s name looking squarely in his eyes “stop spouting things you might regret later. Because you are in a drunken stupor and are not in control of yourself. You will not remember what you said or what you do but WE will never forget. It might also be advisable to video his behavior without letting him know. On a calmer day, you might have the opportunity to show him what he looked like drunk.July 30, 2012 12:39 am at 12:39 am #1182012
aries2756-We did try to direct him to his room, but he didn’t go there until he spewed out all his anger first. He wasn’t able to listen to reason at that time, and I’m sure whatever we would have said, he wouldn’t remember. If I’d dare to video/tape him when he is in his prime, I’m sure he’d be furious with us, and I wouldn’t want to take a chance he’d break the camera.
A special thanks to all who took the time to post today, when you were all fasting. In the merit of your chesed, may you all have much nachas from your children..July 30, 2012 1:53 am at 1:53 am #1182013
wow I am sorry to have to say, but if he throws a fit like that in public, and as you see he has no shame, he is going to a psych ward and/or to prison, where he will be savagely handled by his fellow inmates, as people like him are “disliked” to use an understatement.
I believe that as parents, you should take control of the situation.July 30, 2012 3:30 am at 3:30 am #1182014
w.o.w. – I am ready to show you what needs to be done but I’m not convinced that you really believe that your son is sick. If your son (C’V) had a severe physical illness and things got really bad, would you have the slightest thought of giving up? – This is no different, if anything this is worse. You need to stop feeling bad for yourselves and start feeling bad for your son. I’m sorry to have to use such harsh words but you and your husband need to get it through your heads that you are dealing with a sick child. No normal healthy child would “choose” to do what he is doing. You must realize that he has lost his bechira and you need to help him get it back. IT IS DOABLE, I am doing it and I have seen dozens of other parents do it. It will seem crazy (twisted)at first, but eventually it becomes second nature. I can honestly say it has changed me and my entire family (for the better) more than it has changed my son. I’m ready when you are 🙂July 30, 2012 3:44 am at 3:44 am #1182015
Daniela, he would NOT be arrested nor thrown into a psych ward. And if they could take control of him as parents or as any other loving people in his life who cared about them they would.July 30, 2012 8:24 am at 8:24 am #1182016
here to help-we are convinced that we are dealing with a sick child, but we see his sickness as contagious and are afraid the other kids will ‘catch it’. Anyway, I agreed with your previous post about me and my husband being the single biggest threat to him bc it does seem that he is so affected by everything we say/do. We don’t want to be the reason he goes ‘over the edge’ and will try to keep the bigger picture in mind. At the same time, I agree with aries2756, that kids need boundaries to feel safe, and protected. But if we remove them, how will he feel that?July 30, 2012 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1182017
Write or Wrong;
This is not an easy pill to Swallow trust me, but everything we tried and that your are trying (control) has not worked. I have met many of the Twisted family and everyone including myself agree that we will not fix the kid but life around him or her will fall into place. As to the kid;July 30, 2012 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #1182018
w.o.w. – First of all, think about what your saying. Your child is sick because of a severe trauma that HE experienced. Does that sound like something that could be contagious? (ridiculous). Healthy children will make healthy decisions. Like I said before, No normal healthy child would “choose” to do what he is doing. Furthermore, eventually you may need to explain to the other children what this mehalach is all about; but first you have to understand it yourself. BTW, my kids do it better than my wife and I do.
Secondly, what aries2756 said about boundaries is great for healthy children. YOUR CHILD IS BROKEN, if you would enter 2+2 in his “calculator” it would equal 7. No normal parenting will work at this point. You’ve been trying that for a long time already, has it worked so far? You said it yourself, he’s only getting worse. You are wasting precious time grasping for straws that are getting you nowhere. Remember, I’m here to help, but you gotta be ready and totally committed, You and your husband.July 30, 2012 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1182019
aries, people end up in prison or in psych wards for much less. You should ask around, I am sadly sure there are heartbreaking stories in your community as well.
Here to help, your advice is against what we have been doing for thousands of years, of course we may all be wrong and you may be right, but allow me to be wary of your advice. And from a practical viewpoint, while I realize none of us would like a 16 year old daughter who has “boys”, this is completely legal according to secular law, if all she does is going inside someone’s bedroom and close the door behind them.
I also have the feeling the family is about to snap: they are perceiving the boy to be dangerous or close to it, to the point they are afraid of being physically attacked. I have no idea if this is factual or if it is just their fear, but this is what the parents believe. What is going to happen when the family becomes even more afraid, say, they start to worry he may hurt his siblings? The stakes are very high. We have to protect the boy and his family from reaching that point.
As I already wrote three months ago, I believe this family needs a break. OK according to their son they did everything wrong, fair enough, but if so, the boy needs to be sent (ie the parents decide without consulting him and he complies) elsewhere. He needs to be in charge of someone whom he can’t blame for his supposed misfortunes, someone strong enough to discipline him (which means having his respect), someone who does not fuel his distorted sense of entitlement, someone who does not hand out cash easily. He wants liquor? he wants android phone and airtime minutes? he wants american clothing? he wants cigarettes? He wants to go to a fashion disco bar? Let him purchase all that with the sweat of his brow, especially given that he will be forced to do unqualified work (he preferred to sleep rather than study secular subjects, after all). And, he wants pressed shirts? Awesome, the iron is in the cabinet and the electric plug is available. Chances are that at the end of the day, he’ll fall asleep before being able to pour himself a drink.
It is of course only my humble opinion, I am no rabbi, I am no therapist, but I came across many more heartbeaking stories than I’d have liked to.July 30, 2012 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #1182020
daniela and other doubters – I will repeat (for at least the 7th time) this method is not for every child. It is specifically designed for the type of child w.o.w. is describing. The methods we’ve been using that have been working for thousands of years DO NOT WORK on these children. As has been admitted here over and over again. Someone who believes that if something doesn’t work, keep trying the SAME THING again and again and again, that person may need a visit to the “Psych Ward”. (No offense, I’m just trying to get you think a little) I believe if people would STOP making the same mistakes we would be hearing a lot less heartbreaking stories.July 30, 2012 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #1182021
Speaker-thanks for sharing your situation, and I wish you much success! So,then Twisted Parenting is for the family, not the child?
daniela-I don’t think my son is dangerous, but when he has his temper tantrums, he makes a lot of threats. I guess, if we pressed all the wrong buttons, G-d forbid, he could go over the edge, like hth said. But usually, we back down, and try to diffuse his anger. I hear what you’re saying, and believe me, I wish it could work out the way you say, that sensibility would just ‘kick in’. But for some reason, it isn’t kicking in, and I’m not optimistic. If he wants to buy something, he might just take money from the pushka. And if I don’t iron his shirts, he’ll just stop wearing them and borrow a tee shirt from his friend.
here to help-We are commited to doing this, and are ready to continue. But just as an aside, I’m not sure a therapist would agree against setting boundaries. Perhaps, ‘giving in’ more has therapeutic value, but to give up complete control feeds their insecurities and fears of abandonment…
BTW, what kinds of kids would this approach NOT work with?July 30, 2012 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #1182022
Daniela, the worst thing a person can do in this situation is offer unqualified help. I am sorry to say it and hope that you are not offended but we are dealing with a very serious and painful situation and one that outsiders really don’t understand or have no knowledge how to assist in unless they are experienced in the parsha. It is easy to peer inside the window and offer advice or opinions as to what others would do when you were never in the situation nor have no training to understand the situation. Believe me I don’t wish it on you or anyone you know. It is truly something that is beyond comprehension unless your are right smack in the middle of it.
I do have experience helping both kids and parents and Here to Help is in the parsha. So although we have different approaches and don’t always agree, we can agree to disagree, and yet offer “real” help. I do understand the need to help because it is heartbreaking for anyone with a heart when you hear the pain one goes through.
WOW, HTH and I are offering different approaches. I offer what I can from a “coaching” perspective, Twisted Parenting is a concept that Avi has proven with many families. I do have to say that kids need to feel that they are loved and boundaries make a child feel that you care. Obviously one does not use the same boundaries with such children as with the others, but the boundaries that you instinctly chose regarding the late night worked. The electric cigarettes was another boundary whether it was intentional or not. You don’t know what he is thinking and if you leave the playing field wide open he might feel that you don’t care. It might take some negotiation between you, and that is fine and he might feel that he won the negotiation and that is fine too, but he will realize that you care and you are not just throwing him to the wolves.
There is a tug of war going on here between keeping him safe from your perspective and him wanting his freedom to do what he wants to do. YOU see the danger of him hanging out with his friends, something that he is absolutely blinded to. He sees the need to pull away and make his own choices. He is being buoyed on by his friends. In the end he is in control of his choices regardless because you have given him the right to choose, but he also knows that you love him enough to negotiate.
On another note, if possible are you willing to discuss what his issues were, why was he bullied? I wonder if he would be willing to take self-defense courses. If he chooses to check it out, Karate is a very good form of self-discipline. If he is not in yeshiva he will eventually have to go into the army, correct? As a matter of fact, don’t you have to sign up at 16? Having experience in martial arts will give him a leg up in the military and will give him the self-confidence and self-esteem he lacks. Is he at all concerned about that?July 30, 2012 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #1182023
WOW – Correct Twisted is for BOTH parents and not the kid. Twisted gives you the tools to work with the kid and the family. Twisted has support groups as well and they are very important to attend.July 30, 2012 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #1182024
aries2756-He had a lisp, and spoke a very Americanized Hebrew, so the kids made fun of him. We didn’t even know about it until he started acting out in school, and then it came out. He went for speech therapy, and he got rid of the lisp. But the kids continued to make fun of him for years! The kids weren’t physically abusive, it was more of an emotional thing, since my son was desperate to fit in, but they gave him the feeling that he didn’t. He also had a very tough RY, who was very punitive, and non trusting. Most of my son’s class left the yeshiva over the years, with only 7 kids remaining. He expressed interest in taking a karate class, but when we tried to pursue it, he didn’t seem to want to follow through. Yes, the army is going to be an option if he isn’t in a yeshiva. He hasn’t registered yet, I don’t think that happens before age 17. Not sure what his thoughts are about the army, he used to say that he doesn’t want to go, but some days he’ll say the opposite. He seems unsure..July 30, 2012 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #1182025
w.o.w. – simply put, this approach should only be used when all regular forms of parenting are not working. Although, I must say many of the concepts here work for everyone, children and adults alike. You will be able to see the differences clearly once you begin.
I am thinking, however, that this forum may not be the best atmosphere to conduct this very sensitive and sometimes unorthodox (twisted) approach. Though some of the points made here are good ones there is a lot of outside distractions. The last thing you need while trying to concentrate on healing your son is distractions. So, I am going to confer with the man himself, Avi Fishoff, as to the best way to continue. I will let you know ASAP.July 30, 2012 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1182026
Speaker-so then, what’s the goal of Twisted Parenting?July 30, 2012 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #1182027
wow – Here to help is correct – it took one week to see change. It takes time, but if you give love the kid will come home. He may be Kippa Sruga but frum and part of your family for life.
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