July 31, 2012 1:11 am at 1:11 am #1182028
What a shame that the children were so cruel and the R “Y didn’t have the common sense and know how to deal with the situation. Maybe the concept of karate now that he is older might not be a bad option to pursue again. It is not as if he needs the approval of his school friends or needs them to join along with him. Mon the other hand it might be considered cool among his new friends or at least for himself. He is allowed to do something for himself without asking permission from his friends.
If he has any talents he would like to pursue that might be another avenue to explore.July 31, 2012 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #1182029
aries2756-there was a time when he might have wanted to pursue karate, or some of his other talents. But now he is addicted to his android…literally. He spends every waking moment on that thing, with his earphones, and barely even comes out to eat or drink. He doesn’t have the ‘energy’ to do other activities. My main problem right now, is whether to let him use my computer, where he transfers all his videos/songs from one place to another, so he can then give them out to his chevra. I feel like I am participating in/perpetuating the problem if I say yes, but I will become his enemy if I say no.July 31, 2012 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1182030
here to help-I don’t see any other choice. Perhaps we can just continue, and ignore any diversions. Afterwards, we can respond to any questions/disagreements.July 31, 2012 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #1182031
I believe that there can be some negotiation with the computer. It does not have to be all or nothing. Is he sharing his android with you? Do YOU get to use it at will? If not I don’t see any reason to hand over your personal item for him to use at his beck and call either.
So from a coaching perspective I would use negotiations. ” I understand that you want to use MY personal computer. I also understand that your new “device” is very important to you. My computer is as important to me as your device is to you. I am no more comfortable just handing it over to you than you would be handing over your personal device to me or any other member of the family, so how do we bridge this gap? What can you do to make me feel more comfortable about this? What solution can we both come up with that would work for both of us?”.
He needs your cooperation. He needs your computer. Let him think about it. In the end he will get what he needs, but let’s see if he can think his way through it instead of just demand it. Let’s see if he can come up with a solution/negotiation to make it work. You don’t have to be enemies.
The best solution is if you allow him to use it in the kitchen, for an hour or two at a time so he doesn’t usurp it and that he recognizes YOUR need to use your own device. Don’t minimize your own need. It is not up to him to decide whether or not you yourself need it or how much you need it.
Let him know your concerns, your own need for privacy and therefore he can’t take it into his room, because you have things on the computer that are not his business no matter how neutral or pareve it is it still is not his business. Just as he has a need for respect and privacy so do you and you don’t want that line crossed. On the other hand you can agree not to watch over his shoulder or comment on what he is doing as long as it doesn’t harm the computer itself. He should also agree not to do anything illegal where you can get blamed and be shut down and also remove anything he downloads so it doesn’t use up the space on the computer and slow it down. You should also agree that he must only download from safe sites and that you have an updated virus protector on the computer that he must also check to see it is up to date and running before he downloads anything.
In addition if he downloads anything that will make unwanted or questionable pop ups appear he will lose the privilege of he computer.
This really needs to be a serious discussion and negotiation. You really have to make a specific written agreement with him including the consequences making it very clear that if he chooses to break the agreement ( don’t use the word rules) then he will choose to lose the privilege. Be sure to reiterate that if he lent you his android under the same conditions and he saw it doing funny things after he specifically told you what not to do, he would not want to let you use it again. After all you love music don’t you? Wouldn’t it be nice to sit down in the kitchen for twenty minutes with your feet up and your eyes closed just listening to your music plugged into your ears?
Why can’t he download from his own android, doesn’t he have Internet ?July 31, 2012 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #1182032
aries2756-my guess is that he has an enormous collection of videos/music on an external hard drive, so he needs my computer to transfer things to a USB or MP4. He told me he can’t do that on his android. The main issue I have, is that he’s becoming ‘the main man’ in his chevra, bc he can supply everyone with music/videos from his USB, bc of access to my computer. I don’t want to feed this.July 31, 2012 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #1182033ImaofthreeParticipant
Write or wrong, I am wondering if he is communicating with girls on his android.July 31, 2012 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #1182034
Imaof3-I don’t think he is, although I do think he communicates with his chevra on facebook. Mostly he’s watching movies, and downloading games.July 31, 2012 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #1182035
Ima, why should that be a concern at this point?July 31, 2012 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1182036
WOW, how is he downloading it to his external hard drive?August 1, 2012 12:01 am at 12:01 am #1182037
aries2756-he must have gotten a bunch of stuff from someone a long time ago (bc I never gave him the internet), via their USB to his hard drive, using my computer! Now, he transfers things as he ‘needs’ them to his USB, and shares with the chevra, or puts it onto his MP4. Don’t you think I should stop letting him use my computer? I know it would mean ‘war’, but I feel terible being a part of this, and helping him to become popular with the chevra..August 1, 2012 2:27 am at 2:27 am #1182038No One Mourns The WickedMember
Daniela, I’m not sure where you are getting your facts from, but it sounds like you are suggesting to W.O.W to put the child in a boot camp or correctional facility!
The situation sounds bad, but not any worse than what I’ve come across in general. All of us brilliant minds of the coffee room can sit here for hours and tell you how to raise your son, but at the end of the day it’ll be YOU that will have to deal with the repercussions. My only advice is to get your family a good therapist and rav who will be able to give you time sensitive advice…
I wish you much clarity and luck.August 1, 2012 4:02 am at 4:02 am #1182039
Wow, knowing his history and understanding his need to belong and even to be looked up to, it is very difficult to advise you to deny that to him. On the other hand helping him feel important and even succeeding at this small level might be something to consider. You will not stop him from hanging out with this chevra. You can’t choose his friends for him at this stage, so how can you help him and guide him? Sabatoging his mission will not help either one of you, he will find a way to make it happen without your help. So what can you do to form some kind of alliance with him?
Again I would suggest some form of negotiation for the use of your personal computer. Make an agreement of some kind, either in regard to where he can use it or how he can use it. For instance, he can use it only if he asks you and only if he tells you what he is using it for, again explaining that it is just as important to you as his android is to him. Negotiate with him and come to an agreement.
Personally, in my humble opinion, I feel that it would be the best compromise and option. I dont see it as you helping him being a big shot with his friends, just as you and your son working an issue out together. Especially since he is not downloading anything to your computer and is just using it like an extension chord. But still I would suggest that you maintain an anti virus program because the files are being transferred through your computer, meaning your computer is reading them, therefore you must take very precaution to protect your computer.August 1, 2012 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #1182040
No One Mourns the Wicked-we do have a therapist we are working with, and he seems to be in sync with aries2756 and some of the other posters.August 1, 2012 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #1182041
w.o.w. – I spoke with Avi and we came up with a possible solution but you need to contact me directly. I’m not sure how to go about that I guess we need the mods to advise.August 1, 2012 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #1182042
here to help-why can’t we continue the way it was? I know there were a few others who were also benefiting from your advice.August 1, 2012 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #1182044
Twisted Parenting needs to be administered in a very specific way and therefore needs to be explained that way as well. As mentioned here before, the initial visit with Avi Fishoff could be up to 12 HOURS! Then there are many follow ups and groups…etc. Giving you bits and pieces with constant interruptions, not to mention the time zone difference, is just not giving the method a fair chance to work.
We have a possible good solution though if I can get your direct email.
Others will be considered on a case by case basis if they would like. If anyone else is interested they can post here.August 1, 2012 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #1182045
here to help-so where are the mods??? I feel like I’m hanging here…August 1, 2012 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #1182046
WOW, HTH and I are coming from different perspectives. I have never sat in on these sessions with Avi, but I do respect him. HTH believes that you should not be getting advice from two different sources and that you should try this program with full commitment and concentration without any distraction from me and see if it works for you.
In all honesty I will tell you to do whatever you think will work for you and your child. I promise you that even though you can’t see the light at the end of the tunnel parents do survive the parsha and come out on the other side. I don’t know how you would get hold of HTH but I can tell you that you can google Avi Fishoff to find his number, google Twisted Parenting, or Home Sweet Home and somehow you will get to him. Let us know what you choose to do because I don’t normally comed to the coffee room anymore. However if you need be to check in here I will.August 1, 2012 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #1182047
aries2756-I like and value your input, and I don’t feel that I should ignore your perspective or anyone else’s just bc I’m following a particular technique. My husband alone is the biggest critic of Twisted Parenting! However, we do agree that nothing else has worked so far. I’m wondering whether TP can be tempered at times and still have the same effect. And what is the goal of TP exactly? If the goal is just to have peace in the house (which is great), I don’t think we have to act so extreme in order to have it. Perhaps the reason nothing has worked before is bc our goal was to bring our son back to the derech and get him away from his chevra. Is that also the goal of TP? I would like to understand the technique of TP and hear it in its entirety, and see if it works for us. But I do get a lot of chizuk and insight from you and all the posters, and would hope it continues. One doesn’t have to preclude the other.August 2, 2012 2:00 am at 2:00 am #1182048
WOW, in that case I am here for you for as long as the moderators will allow this thread to continue.
If your short term goal is to get your son away from the chevra and back on the derech, I’m afraid I don’t have any tricks in my bag that would help you. As a long term goal it can be achieved but it will be something he will come by on his own or more realistically with the help of other shelichim.August 2, 2012 5:43 am at 5:43 am #1182049
here to help- I just noticed an email address emailed to me from Twisted Parenting. Is that you?August 2, 2012 6:06 am at 6:06 am #1182050
aries2756-I actually think I have to change my goal, at least for the short term. I don’t think we can get him away from the chevra, and I’m not even sure we can bring him back to the derech. Probably that will have to come from shelichim, like you said. Right now, my goal is to get him to go to some program next year by being the voice of reason, love, consistency and support. I’m hoping my message will come through somehow bc I think, at least in the long term, my son isn’t going to be happy hanging out in the streets every night with his chevra. At some point, he’ll want money, or a job, and I don’t think he’ll be happy with the kinds of jobs some of the kids in the chevra have. But maybe I’m wrong? If he’s really so ‘twisted’, then nothing will work, except maybe ‘Twisted Parenting’. Anyway, I do appreciate all your advice and your commitment to helping me! I am so touched by the chesed of every one, and really, should not stop to thank you and all the posters…August 2, 2012 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #1182051
If you received an email address from TP it is probably from Avi.August 2, 2012 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #1182052
We are in the middle of a battle right now. My son just said he is going overnight with his chevra (I am guessing to Ashdod). He won’t say where, with who and when he is coming home. How am I supposed to react to this? I’m not handling it very well.August 2, 2012 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #1182053
He left.August 2, 2012 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1182054whatithinkMember
This might work in genaral for kids that are going off:
These kids in there eyes they are not doing anything wrong all they want is to be happy in life.
Every child at risk means i dont understand why we cant simply enjoy life?? why do i need all this rules for??? if the child does not recieve a very very clear answer which makes alot of sense to him he will always remain at risk no matter what approach you take with him. at the end of the day he wants to enjoy life and if yiddishkeit is not enjoyble then why practice yiddishkeit.
The job of anyone who wants to help another person to be erlich is simply to convince him why judiasm is an enjoyble way of life.
The mindset should be he is doing what he is doing simply because he wants to enjoy his day and does not understand what enjoyment really is.
The best way for a child to realize that yiddishkeit is actually a happy way of life is by seeing the parents enjoying yiddishkeit. Children thrive when they see their parents have a relationship to hashem in a very normal, practical and regular way.
It is best to discuss with children in early childhood that the world has a lot to offer and to be very specific according to age appropriate and then to explain in detail and in depth why it does not compare to judiasm for example to doing chesed or to enjoy a deep discussion in gamoro.August 2, 2012 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1182055oomisParticipant
Aries, I am delighted to see you posting again.August 2, 2012 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1182056
WhatIthink-It makes sense what you said. But it seems hard to compete with the temptations that are out there, even if the family is happy being religious. It could be that the mitsvos just don’t make kids that happy, especially when you see the secular world appearing to be ecstatic from other things. My son has been listening to secular music for a long time, and now he had the chance to go with his chevra to an outdoor beach party with some singer or DJ that he likes. Hundreds of kids dancing on the beach, loud music, beer… the intensity overpowers even the happiest of religious events. My son said the most telling thing as I was pleading with him not to go. He told me that he can’t be religious bc of me. I guess that is the bottom line. I feel like I’m in aveilusAugust 3, 2012 2:55 am at 2:55 am #1182057
w.o.w. – sorry I didn’t get back to you sooner. If you got an email directly from twisted parenting then it is probably Avi. Reply to it, he is somewhat familiar with your situation and should reply back. Hatzlacha Rabba, let me know what happens.
BTW you should really consider a visit to NY.August 3, 2012 4:07 am at 4:07 am #1182058danielaParticipant
Apologies, I was away from the computer.
I wish to clarify I was not suggesting a correctional facility, which I personally think it’s not a place to send our loved ones to (but which, unfortunately, law enforcement does send people to, and not always for valid reasons). I was suggesting a normal environment, like real life. My clothing does not magically iron itself, the dishwasher / house helper / computer etc. are very nice but come with bills attached, and if I were to disrespect someone, I would have to deal with the obvious consequences. The boy’s attitude is a problem regardless if he’s in yeshiva, in college, in business, or anywhere else. He needs someone, forgive me for saying it, to finally let him know that he is not the center of the universe, nor is he the top of the universe that no one may dare to express displeasure to. But I suppose it’s moot now. We should all wish the best to him now that he left home, and he is an underage whose cash will soon run out. My thoughts are especially with you wow who must be heartbroken beyond belief. I hope something good comes out of this tremendous difficulty you are going through. Please, see a good lawyer and tell him the story and ask for advice. Right now the priority is no longer mussar, it is protecting both him and your family – as you know very well, in israel certain services and agencies only wait for pretexts, and as soon as he gets recorded by any system – document check for security reasons, say – as an underage who left home, your family may be targeted as problematic. I hope nothing happens, that he just stays away for a few days and then returns home a different and better person. It will give him security to be on his own, and his “friends” can probably say to him what he would never accept being told by you and they might do so – let us try to see the good in everything. Be strong please, for yourself and everyone.August 3, 2012 4:21 am at 4:21 am #1182059
here to help-I don’t think the email was from Avi bc it was emailed to me on July 17th. (I haven’t been checking my emails lately). I did answer back, so so far haven’t heard anything.August 3, 2012 4:50 am at 4:50 am #1182060
WOW, did he mean that he can’t be religious because of you (something you did) or he can’t be religious because of you, meaning for you, if he doesn’t feel it for himself.
One thing I want to make perfectly clear. The home and the school are a partnership in the chinuch, nurturing and success of our children. If there is dysfunction in either the home or the school or they are NOT working in conjunction or are on the same page the children will know it and problems will arise. So when the family might love the child unconditionally but they don’t feel that love from their home away from home, the place that they spend most of their waking hours in, there is a huge problem. If the child does not feel safe, happy, nurtured but on the contrary feels humiliated, picked on, disliked, or otherwise sees hypocrisy and their role models are acting in opposition of what they are teaching there are going to be problems, huge problems.
Some children will react with just exaggerated behavior, not quite the “anov” yid they should be. Those are usually the kids who were not personally targeted. But those who were in the eye of the storm so to speak, or were the target of the negative attention and who were pained and burnt by it and carry the burden will react much differently, much harsher.
Think about it, the mechanchim who are supposed to be the greatest role models for our children, who display less than appropriate behavior make children feel that the religion is not real. And just like this mechanech and the administration who choose to allow him to continue “choose” which mitzvos they will follow or not, the kids feel that they too can “choose” what they will do or not, that the religion is NOT as serious as they were taught it was. That is when it all begins to crumble for them, it loses its stamina and they see the chinks in the armor.
The same thing happens when children who find that stability in the school but find their footing shaken in the home. Children have their two feet firmly planted one in the foundation of the school and one in the foundation of the home. If one or the other develop cracks the safety, security and stability of the child begins to crumble and the first thing that goes with it is what they counted on the most their entire lives, religion. The one thing they thought they could count on. That is the common thread that weaves through every area of their lives.
Children are just that children, their minds are not developed fully enough to understand more than that they have been crushed, pained and burdened. They don’t know how to deal with the pain other than to run and blame. They try to shed the pain by shedding what they think is causing the pain and look for ways to heal, other things to try other uniforms to try on. It takes time for them to mature and grow and figure things out for themselves. It takes time for them to get in touch with their pain and understand what is really hurting them or who really hurt them and why they felt so hurt or is still feeling so hurt. It takes time, maturity and some experience to understand what is right and wrong, especially for them, and how to differentiate between the two. It takes time and maturity to really understand who their friends really are, and how to make the best choices for themselves. Every kid thinks they know best, but when they look back in a year, they realize how foolish they were only a year earlier. My mom a”h always said “mit de yurin kimpt de seichel”, with the years comes the sense.
I only wish that we could truly trust every other Jew with our children. Unfortunately we can’t. Unfortunately we cannot protect our children from even our very own good intentions. When we send our children out the door we expect everyone to treat them as we do, or as we would like them to. That is a pipe dream. When we register our kids in yeshiva we expect them to hire only the best mechanchim and the best role models as if every single one of them were teaching their only child. It doesn’t happen, and we hope and pray that they treat our children as if our kids were their kids, and that doesn’t happen either or at least we hope that they don’t treat their kids the way some of our kids have been treated.
Let’s face it, you don’t need a license or training to be a parent, and you don’t need a license or training to be a mechanech. We have all learned that the hard way and unfortunately a lot of innocent yiddishe neshomas have learnt it the hard way too. I have recently found out that you don’t even need semicha to open a yeshiva and call yourself a Rosh Yeshiva. So for the most part children have managed to live normal lives and successfully move on into adulthood. Unfortunately for those who didn’t we have to help them through the challenge, as difficult as it is, we must do what we can because they didn’t ask to be in the position that they are in any more than we as parents asked to be here. No child who didn’t have any cracks in their foundation finds themselves in this predicament. No child in this parsha enjoys being here. So for those who say “OTD is a choice, these kids are choosing to leave the fold and are choosing the life they are living” I say, YOU Know nothing about the parsha and until you are in it, please don’t comment. I don’t wish any of you even 1/10th the pain these kids are suffering.
WOW, and whomever else is reading this, as difficult as this is for you, please keep in mind how difficult this is for him. I know it doesn’t seem that way at times especially when he runs off at the mouth. At the moment he feels like a man without a country. He is the black sheep of the family. He probably feels like no one in his home or family loves him or understands him. He probably feels like everyone hates him. IN HIS MIND he probably feels that the only ones who do understand him are his friends. In his mind he cannot comprehend that you would or could understand him. How could you understand that his Rosh Yeshiva was wrong? How could you possibly understand why he doesn’t want to go back to yeshiva, why he doesn’t want to be frum when you are so frum, when he is going against everything you believe in, when no one would even believe he is your child? In his mind he can’t understand why you would love him when he is spitting in your face? So he is testing you to see if you mean it, if your love is real or if you will only love him if he is religious, and he can’t be religious for you or because of you or in order for you to love him.August 3, 2012 5:03 am at 5:03 am #1182061
The email is actually from YWN giving me a twisted parenting email address. Unfortunately, coming to NY is not an option.
It’s 8am here in Israel, and my son still didn’t come home. How do people cope with things like this?August 3, 2012 5:17 am at 5:17 am #1182062
daniela-my son didn’t leave home completely, just overnight. But at this point, I don’t know what the plan is. Staying out all night can’t be something kavua, bc me and my husband can’t take it. It’s true that his attitude won’t work in any school or job, so I guess we just have to wait until he gets himself into something responsible where he can begin to ‘shape up’. Hope it doesn’t take too long.August 3, 2012 5:52 am at 5:52 am #1182063
WOW, some people cope by saying Tehillim and some don’t cope at all. Try to negotiate a compromise. Tell him it is inconsiderate to make you worry all night and that although you don’t agree that he should stay out all night, if he is going to be out all night he should let you know that and where he is so you don’t have to worry. Although he knows where he is and that he is alive and well you don’t, and your thoughts go as far as him being dead in an alley somewhere and that is not fair to you. If he chooses to be up all night it is not fair that you too should be up all night worrying about him. And you can no longer stop worrying about him than he can be religious today. Just as he wants and needs you to understand that, you need him to understand that you love him and worry about him and you can’t stop just because he says you should. If one of his friends would not show up one night and not answer his phone or text and no one knew where he was wouldn’t he and the rest of the boys worry or be concerned? Well then he should understand how much more you are concerned and worry. So you should come to an understanding to at least be considerate of each other.August 3, 2012 7:15 am at 7:15 am #1182064
aries2756-he meant that he can’t be religious by just following in my footsteps. Maybe I was naive thinking that bc we have a loving relationship with the kids, and shalom bayis, that all would be okay. You are right about the RY picking and choosing which mitsvos to follow, and giving the kids the subtle message that they can do the same. I am remembering a few incidents where my husband and I didn’t like what the RY did, and we felt it was a terrible message for the kids. But who knew it could have such serious repercussions? What could I possibly do to repair that type of damage? Do you think it would help if we spoke to the RY about it, and then ask him to speak to my son (about how wrong he was!!)?
My son came home now, and he is as happy as can be! The truth is, I couldn’t even look at him, he hurt me so much. None of my previous coping skills are working. I tried reading Tehillim, which I do every day, but I just couldn’t concentrate. Maybe one day my son will find himself, and heal. But he ripped out a piece of my heart, and it can never be replacedAugust 3, 2012 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1182065danielaParticipant
Thank G-d he is healthy and happy. But please step back. You do not have the right to tell another adult how to lead their life. You can change the lock if you don’t want him to come back, or ignore him, or welcome him, as you see fit (let me stress YOU). And so on for the internet, the liquor and everything – you are the parent and you decide. But you can’t try to manipulate him by using your feelings, because as you can see, he is doing the same to you. I realize you are worried for real when he leaves and does not tell you where is going, when he’ll be back, and cellphone is either off or you don’t dare calling. But you can’t afford worries. People who G-d forbid have bad diseases or have a child with such problems, don’t have time to worry, 24hrs a day are not enough to finish all they have to do. People did not worry during the war, they used that energy to do everything in their power to survive. You have to do the same and be strong. And, I realize that, like anyone else in your position, you are less than delighted about his lifestyle, but please don’t use light-heartedly expressions such as “he ripped my heart”, G-d forbid there are parents who have children who get in trouble with the most serious criminal laws, or in the “best” case, admit having chosen a lifestyle such as advertised by the Jerusalem parade.
I am not denying the possibility that some RY or teacher did something wrong to him (like you, me and everyone else, they are not perfect, and, your son is not perfect either) but even if it were so (I think something happened, but it is much less of a big deal than you think), yet you should not IMHO justify your son using it as an excuse. With this outlook, someone, even if surrounded by perfect tzaddikim, can say the same, can even blame G-d for “picking” mitzvot and neglecting some. You never heard about someone dying while doing the mitzvot that bring long life? I know personally such stories, besides them being recorded in the Talmud. But this is not how we are taught, is it. There are things we don’t understand, and when we don’t, we leave it at that. The more you feed into his delusions and the more he’ll be unhappy. He is happy with his “friends”, yet they don’t treat him with velvet gloves, they give him harsh “mussar” (within their outlook), they hold him responsible. Perhaps there is something to learn from that.
Shabbat Shalom to you and all your familyAugust 3, 2012 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #1182066mom12Participant
At least he came home…
hopefully if he is happy he is NOT disrespectful..
WOW- I was once told all our T’hillim and T’fillos go into a bank account and accumulate.. then at the end they come back to ‘save’ u..
so I just keep praying.. I know you do too, but you seem to think its not working. IT WORKS! we just dont see where or we will see it later.
It’s the only thing that keeps us sane and strong to go thru all this.August 3, 2012 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #1182067WanderingTeenMember
Seriously, i think you guys need to chill out. There is nothing wrong with enjoying life the way ‘at-risk'(as you guys put it) teens do! just because a child chooses not do follow in your footsteps entirely doesnt mean he’s bad! i think you guys are being wayyyyy too dramatic. Hassidic people seem to think that in judiasm, its their way or the highway. Thats where you guys are so wrong & causing such drama is what causes your children to back away further more! you guys dont realize that YOU are the ones that make your loved ones go ‘OTD’ by not accepting the fact that the child is just more modern or whatever. so stop all this drama, move on with your life. if you really love your children, you’d accept & love them regardless of which path they decide to go down!August 3, 2012 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #1182068BONDParticipant
I am not one who has the time and looks frequently at the coffee room of YW and I noticed that this topic has been going on for 3 month so I browsed through the 17 pages of bloggers and I have decided to write back to “write or wrong”. Firstly, you may never blame yourself or your spouse that your son is and wants to be the way he is. IYH he will come around and you will see and have much nachas from him, eventhough right now you think that is impossible. My son was able to be the poster child for any kids at risk organization and at age 15 he was hanging out with kids all hours of the night. My wife cried many days & nights and I do think that if a child sees a mother in the corner davening fervently and saying Tehilllim with tremendous kavanah the child will get somewhat bothered by it and may help the situation. You should have hatzlocha and see sooner than later the nachas you deserveAugust 3, 2012 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #1182069
w.o.w. I’m not understanding something. On one hand you describe your life as being unbearable. Your son’s life is obviously even MORE UNBEARABLE. I’m offering you something that can save your entire family yet you say that is “not an option”?
Forgive me for maybe jumping to conclusions you might have a really great reason for not coming to NY even for a short time. Think hard before you rule it out.August 3, 2012 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #1182070
W.O.W., I am extremely happy that he is B”H OK. On the other hand I do understand your hurt and frustration and I will not even attempt to minimize it one iota. It is what it is and you are entitled to your feelings. It hurts and it hurts badly.
Speaking to the R”Y is not a bad idea, although I doubt he will do anything or admit to any wrong doing. However, advocating for your child and letting him know from your perspective and from his what he did and what the result of that is will at least help you and maybe other children. In addition it will mean something to your child that you had the guts to go back to the R”Y and tell him that he was wrong, he hurt your child, and that he owes him an apology. Standing up for your child is always the right thing to do.August 3, 2012 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #1182071TheGoqParticipant
Hello Aries, good to see you back but why are you limiting your activity to just this one thread? we could use your sage advice in the rest of the coffee room 🙂August 3, 2012 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #1182072
W.O.W., btw, one small smile from him will heal your heart. Then it will be broken again and it will heal again. Hang in there, you are in for a long and heart wrenching roller-coaster ride. But we, if not us here in the CR, others in the parsha or familiar with the parsha will be here for you to offer support. You won’t have to go through this alone.August 4, 2012 9:48 am at 9:48 am #1182073yeabuddyMember
So many thngs wrong with this post. First, stop thinking that the kid is going to end up with the kids he hangs out with for the rest of his life. Next, realize that the fact that he puts on Tefilin and wears a Yarmulka every day shows that he respects and honors the Torah and he wont do anything that is prohibited. Im not talking about stealing and things of that nature, Im talking about talking to girls and eating non-kosher. Sure he goes to the movies with his friends until all hours of the night but that doesnt mean hes going off the derech. Im a young person and I know these things more than a 45 year old therapist does. Therapists work with the mind so they will tell you to talk to him and set rules and stuff. He couldnt care less if you told him that he needs to be home by a certain time or he needs to tell you what he did that day. He just wants to live for now and enjoy life for what it is. He will mature soon enough and realize that he needs an education to get somewhere in life so try sending him away. Maybe to Israel for a year or California. He needs space and he wants to be away from his parents because he thinks you are pressuring him. he doesnt realize that you only want the best for him but he will soon dont worry. After he gets some space and learns in a relaxed environment he will come home and he will be much more mature.August 4, 2012 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #1182074
daniela-you are right, and maybe I needed a strong dose of reality testing. But I’m not strong like you think. And I’m not so sure I’d be one of those who’d survive war. This is all still so new to me, and I guess I haven’t come to terms with it completely. Even though it started 3 months ago, it has evolved into something bigger, something I wasn’t really prepared for, nor do I have experience in knowing how to deal with it. I keep having dreams about it, and then waking up thinking it didn’t really happen, but then realizing it did. Maybe as time goes on, I’ll be able to get to the point you described. But unfortunately, I’m not there yet.
mom12-I know you are right, but if you knew how many hours/day my husband and I daven for this kid, you’d think the Yam Suf would split all over again. But, thank you for the reminder.August 4, 2012 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #1182075
Wandering Teen-It’s not a matter of love, we love our son no matter what. We’d also accept it if our son was modern, but he’s not. If it were merely an issue of him not following in our footsteps, but veering off a bit, we’d accept that too. If you’ve read the posts, you’d see it’s more like he fell into quicksand, but thinks he’s on steady ground. No parent can easily watch their child do something that will hurt them, or pull them into a bad direction. It’s not a matter of him rejecting an orthodox way of life. It’s a matter of him rejecting responsibility and direction, as well as Hashem. To stay out all night with a bunch of drop outs who are looking for action, doesn’t lend itself to success in life, religious or not.
BOND-thanks for writing. Did it help your son to come back? My son does see us davening, and he tells us not to waste our time. Thanks for your blessing, I hope it comes true!
here to help-I’m not saying ‘Twisted Parenting’ is not an option, only coming to NY is not an option. It is not financially nor logistically possible, given our situation. I’m hoping we can continue here…can we?
aries2756-I spoke to my husband about it, and he thinks that in a million years, the RY would never admit any wrong doing, let alone apologize to my son. It might have to come from us, but at a time when my son would be more receptive to hearing us. My son knows that we have always been on his side, and there were times when we wanted to go speak to the RY, but my son told us not to. He was always afraid it would make things worse for him in the long run.
The pain of all this does make a person feel very alone. It’s nice to know I can come here and feel support.August 5, 2012 4:43 am at 4:43 am #1182076
As I have said before TP is a process (a very successful one) and needs to be administered in a very specific way. I don’t think it would work in this type of setting. Optimally, I think a visit to NY is your best bet. Finances and logistics are NOT a good reason for not coming, especially considering what’s at stake.
There is another bedieved option but I would need your email or you would need mine. If Avi didn’t answer you yet then you must have gotten a wrong address.August 5, 2012 5:44 am at 5:44 am #1182077
W.O.W., you can’t go back in time and change things that were, you can only do what you can do today, tomorrow and in the future. You did all you could at the time and even consulted with your son at the time. He knows this and is really not blaming you for his pain. But you are the easy targets, you are the ONLY SAFE TARGETS. Believe me he is blaming himself too, and if he blames himself any more he might do something to punish himself. He is carrying enough of a burden, it is better for him to lash out at a safe target. He can’t possibly not ask himself why he didn’t stand up for himself, why he didn’t lash out at the bullies or why he didn’t answer back to the R”Y and tell him what he really thought of him, or why he didn’t listen to you and allow you to switch him into a different yeshiva where maybe there would have been a mentch at the head.
Who knows what is going on in his head? What if he feels like a failure and that he doesn’t deserve your love and your care? What if he feels that he let everyone down including Hashem and all he deserves is to live on the streets with other kids who gave up? What if he thinks this is all he is good for or good at? Or he doesn’t want you to put any more effort into him or pay any more money to yeshivas for him because it is a waste of good money? Or he wants to try everything that the R”Y said was not allowed because he was a hypocrite so he will do everything against HIM? Or he will doing everything to become the “bad kid” the R”Y claimed he was?
There is no way of knowing what he is thinking, only when he lashes out and you get a glimpse of his pain. Even when most of the things he says he doesn’t mean, there is always a bit of the truth that slips out with the bravado and garbage. You have to sort through it to get those little glimpses into his soul. How utterly sad that this is happening to him and to all of you. How utterly avoidable this entire parsha is.
It is heartbreaking when he tells the rest of you not to bother to daven. It is the worst possible feeling in the world to lose your bitachon and emunah. Nebach this poor neshoma, how absolutely lost he must feel without an ounce of bitachon or emunah. The only time I felt like that was when my father died and I felt that Hashem snatched him away from me. It was the most horrendous feeling in the world. It was as if the earth was gone beneath my feet and literally like I lost my footing. I don’t ever, ever want to feel that way again.August 5, 2012 8:22 am at 8:22 am #1182078
Sorry for your pain about your dad. How did you pick yourself up?
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