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I personally know a goy who joined his Church and came out a Ger Tzedek in a black yarmulke. Etc.
somejew is continuing to equate a legitimate hatsalat nefashot activity to avoda zara
what planet is he living in ?
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Somejewiknow, I told you already your style of arguing just pushes people away from your shita.
YYA and ujm, I was talking about a person that I personally know. There are many other such stories. What about the shtark Mizrachim who go in shtark and come out shtark? Truth only, please.
@mdd1
what’s your approach? what does it accomplish better?My goal here is not to attract anyone to Torah, rather to ust to make the truths in Torah available to those who want it.
The Torah is beautiful without me having to sugar coat it….mdd1, what about the many many many many who go in shvach and come out frei? Or who go in shtark and come out shvach? Or who go in shtark and come out frei?
Are you in favor of granting an exemption from serving in the army to anyone and everyone who is shvach?
why are we guessing here. We live in the time when actual information is available. Can someone – on either side – either bring a citation, or ask your local yeshiva about fate of their gradutes?
Ujm, it is not a question of what I or you would like. It is a question of which deal it will be possible to work out.
mdd1 – There are many other such stories.
Tell me some more of them, I’m waiting… I actually checked it out, there are at least eight documented cases of people who fell from planes without a parachute and survived, including a flight attendant who’s plane was BOMBED cruising at over 30,000 feet… So never say never… But that isn’t the way to go. Show me eight people who became baalei teshuvah BECAUSE of the IDF…
Derech agav, near death experiences often stimulate people to think about the meaning of their lives. That has happened in the IDF, in the Russian Army, in vehicle accidents, and many other scenarios. That is also probably what happened to your friend. That doesn’t mean the IDF service itself made him a Baal Teshuvah… If anything, the credit goes to Hamas or Hezbollah, or whoever was shooting…
mdd1 – What about the shtark Mizrachim who go in shtark and come out shtark? Truth only, please.
Yosef Hatzaddik was very shtark, and came out of his experiences more shtark. The RZ kids, not so much so. Most come out less shtark, at best. They and their leaders don’t even deny this, but by them the IDF is a value unto itself that overrides everything.
re graduates from IDF …
I read a quote in the newspapers , coming from RZ educators themselves , saying that 30 % of their students lose their religion in the IDF
and that they still encourage their youth to enlist
because that price [of 30%] is a price worthwhile to pay for such an overarching ideal …..
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I am shivering while typing such a crooked and outrageous statement
but there you have it
—- from their mouth themselves : it’s THIRTY PERCENT !!!
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.I am not sure where this discussion going. I don’t think serving is something to consider for middos development. We don’t create nisayanos for ourselves to practice. You live in a country that is in the situation where it needs an army. So, it is a necessity. There is a legit idea that talmidei chachomim do not serve.
How does this work in a democratic state where half of population disagrees, I don’t know. I see how people can disagree here. There is a gemorah in bava basra where amei haaretz wanted T’Ch to share tax burden and threatened to leave, and left – and the tax was rescinded. Gemorah does not seem to say what would happen without the miracle. I presume talmidei chachomim would have paid. So, move away from Tzahal protection and see if you deserve a miracle.
But this relates to talmidei chachamim ™. Not everyone else who is hanging around them.
Not sure if this is relevant, but something to think about: in Shevuos, I think, there is a discussion: you should buy hard-to-check items (blue color for tzitzes, maybe used cars) from a talmid chacham whose integrity you can trust. Then, the question is – would you trust his household – wife/child/servant. And the answer seems to be – you presume that they learned integrity from the T’Ch but when you see something suspicious once, the presumption is off. So, we hope that integrity rubs off, but it is not guaranteed that if you hang out around T’Ch, you’ll have same middos.
In Tannis, there is a discussion why our generation learns more – even Uktzin, but do not deserve miracles as previous ones… Learning is not the only thing we are judged on.
mdd1 – it is not a question of what I or you would like. It is a question of which deal it will be possible to work out.
This is a very krum line of reasoning that is heard constantly from דעת בעלי בתים in discussions of this sort. Torah and Mitzvos have nothing to do with “what you or I would like”, and ממילא it is NOT a question of “which deal it will be possible to work out”. We are מושבעים ועומדים מהר סיני, regardless of personal preferences. This isn’t a business deal. There is no room for sacrificing Yiddishe Neshamos for the sake of the Holy IDF, even if there IS room for endangering Yiddishe bodies רחמנא ליצלן. (The safety of our soldiers comes before the safety of enemy civilians according to Halacha, and להבדיל every form of law except for Israeli Bagatz Progressive perversion.) I would not hesitate to send my sons to a real Jewish Torah army to do the Mitzvah of Hilchos Milchamah, but I would not send them to an Israeli shopping mall (for kedusha reasons), let alone to the IDF. This is completely separate from the debate on Zionism etc. On this issue there is no difference between Satmar and Rav Yitzchak Yossef, or anyone in between. Most but NOT all RZ do follow your line of reasoning, and that shows in the results…
AAQ – Learning is not the only thing we are judged on.
So what? Serving with girls and chilonim and being mechalel Shabbos is what will help us make the grade?!
The statistics I’ve seen was around the 50% mark as the figure of RZ/DL enlistees in the IDF that come out frei.
@ AAQ
“…there is a discussion why our generation learns more – even Uktzin, but do not deserve miracles as previous ones… Learning is not the only thing we are judged on.”
This is certainly true. But, it is the first step on any legitimate ladder. Many years ago I personally went to Yeshiva instead of the army after a conversation with a D”L Rav who pointed this out to me.
Ya’akov Yosef, you are insane. I meant that the non-Chareidim can cancel all the monetary support and so on and so forth. And so, the Chareidim might be forced to negotiate, Comprendo?
am not sure why AAQ insists on ignoring the imperative not to enlist
i.e. the fact that a significant percentage discards religion altogether
and that the sakanah of discarding religion is enough to warrant hilul shabat according to the poskim lema’aseh
showing that this is equal in severity to pikuach nefesh lfi hahalacha
all his sevarot about laws or other parts of the population are totally baseless in comparison ….
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.And AAQ’s classic diversion about negotiating is also irrelevant
what is his opinion re the status of the draftees until negotiation is finalised ?
and who says that it will be finalised at all – don’t forget the other side thinks
it has all the cards , for sure when it has AAQ as opponent …
should they enlist with the sakana to their entire yahdut over their heads ?
because of some [nonexistent] laws ?
because of some vague and privately concocted ideal about ‘half the population’ which has no real source in hazal ?
AAQ’s position is extremely weak
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.mdd1 – Ya’akov Yosef, you are insane.
Thank you. For what reason do you say so?
mdd1 – I meant that the non-Chareidim can cancel all the monetary support and so on and so forth. And so, the Chareidim might be forced to negotiate, Comprendo?
The State’s “monetary support” for the Yeshiva World is overrated. Most of the money comes from private donations. Since this has been going on already for a couple of years, the private donations have increased to cover loss of government money. There are quite a few rich Chareidim, if you don’t know. Satmar orbit mosdos never took government money to begin with. That ship has sailed without the Chareidim.
What is actually going on now, if you didn’t notice yet, is the use of criminal sanctions against Yeshiva Bochurim. That also won’t work, because you can’t arrest 80,000 people and disenfranchise 20% of the population.
The Gedolei Yisroel will continue to lead us, not the YWN peanut gallery.
mdd1: I would like to hear your opinion on the question of should shvach bochorim be completely and entirely exempt from army service, given the fact of how so so many shvach bochorim enlist in the IDF while observant but by time they’re discharged from service they’re frei.
Yes or no, Reb mdd?
YYA (somejewiknow ?), right. And that’s why the Gedolim from E. Yisroel have been going to chutz la’aretz to try to collect money to the tune of over 100 millions a year.
Satmar? They have able to have so many people in E. Yisroel and in kollel?mdd1 – No, I am not “somejew”, and a quick search will show you that I frequently disagree strongly with his opinions.
And that’s why the Gedolim from E. Yisroel have been going to chutz la’aretz to try to collect money to the tune of over 100 millions a year.
Exactly. That money is from private donations. What is your problem with that? The Yeshivos will keep on going, don’t worry…
Satmar? They have able to have so many people in E. Yisroel and in kollel?
They don’t just give to their own mosdos, of which there are quite a few. They support entire networks of Mosdos such as Toldos Aharon, Dushinsky, and all the other Eidah-affiliated institutions, from pre-school through Kollel and more, with tens of thousands of students, to the tune of $100M a year at least… None of those mosdos take a penny from the State.
YYA, already during the second year visit the Gedolim have not reached their fundraising goals, and they were told to reach a compromise regarding the military service, and the Gedolim said that they never knew they would have to come again. Ok?
And the over 100 millions is not all the money the government can cut.“YYA (somejewiknow ?), right”
LOL
mdd1 – And the over 100 millions is not all the money the government can cut.
Actually, it almost is. What hasn’t been cut already is support for Kollelim where avreichim are over 26, or Yeshiva Katana bochurim under 18. The more they keep it going, the more independent the Yeshiva World will be forced to become, which will reduce the government’s ability to apply any additional pressure going forward.
But that isn’t the real deal. The real deal is that Hashem runs the world, and we do the best we can to serve Him. The people who know best how we should do that are the Gedolei Yisroel. They hold that as long as the IDF remains the way it is at present, no frum boy belongs there – period. Let alone Yeshiva bochurim. The reasons for that include issues that are yehareg v’al yaavor in the literal Halachic meaning of that term, as has been discussed here many times. How Hashem chooses to provide for the gashmiyus needs of the Yeshivos is His business.
By the way, if you display such schadenfreude at the difficulties of the “Yeshiva World”, what brings you to a website called – “The Yeshiva World”?
In a smaller universe – a shul, a family – when people start arguing who gives more and who gets more, it is not a good sign. And usually a waste of air – I am cooking the dinners! I am taking the garbage out!
If you want to look at “support”, you need to count everything. Not just the funds for yeshiva, but also for the military, and for economic development, and for child subsidies. I don’t think you can count spiritual impact on the other side of the ledger. This would be an equivalent of forcing on non-religious, or even non-charedi, Jews an Issachar/Zevulun contract. Forced contract is invalid. Note that on general majority of Israelis are reasonably sympathetic to charedi needs – judging by the political decisions of providing various sources of support. This could not have happened just based on knesset-level coalition blackmail, this reflects values of Israeli citizens. It seems though, that the army issue crosses the line – this is not just about money, but about “my blood is redder than yours” attitude. Yes, not just the draft issue itself, but the attitude charedim are showing when discussing this. I hope you can see the problem.
yankel> should they enlist with the sakana to their entire yahdut over their heads ?
simple action plan that you can work out i a month:
– form a cybersecurity unit from the computer-educated charedim
– pass army tests or equivalent
– propose to the army to deploy you as a unit
– bonus: include farsi-speaking sefardi charedim
– extra bonus: perform some action against sonei yisroel on your own to demonstrate your capabilities. There are plenty of hackers who do that.mdd, like YYA pointed out to you — Satmar (and Brisk, Toldos Ahron, the Eidah HaChareidus and a number of others) never accepted Israeli government funding, ever, to begin with. Since 1948. And they are all still around. And thriving.
If the Yeshiva velt, the Litvaks, other Chasidim, etc need to give up every penny of Israeli government funding to keep the government out of our business and keep us our of their treife army, we’ll all give up every penny from their government and still stay far far away from the tuma army.
AAQ – form a cybersecurity unit from the computer-educated charedim…
Again with the bright ideas… The problem with the IDF isn’t the shooting etc. It’s the pritzus, combined with being משועבד to a Chiloni system 24/7, especially the ‘seven’. Deals have repeatedly been made, only to be broken by the IDF, or forced to be broken by the SC/AG. So it’s over. Finished. First deal with the Deep State dictatorship, then we’ll talk. From following the news lately, it seems that may already be starting.
– form a cybersecurity unit from the computer-educated charedim
– pass army tests or equivalent
– propose to the army to deploy you as a unit
– bonus: include farsi-speaking sefardi charedim
– extra bonus: perform some action against sonei yisroel on your own to demonstrate your capabilities. There are plenty of hackers who do that.
——-NAIVE .
@ AAQ
You are not addressing the crux of the problem. Mainly: “Deals have repeatedly been made, only to be broken by the IDF, or forced to be broken by the SC/AG (YYA)”.
On Oct 7 everyone who cared to look could see clearly that Chareidi yidden are willing to be moiser nefesh for our brother’s regardless of their background. But we will not put ourselves under the authority of self hating meshumadim.
I am not sure why you are not thanking me for the suggestion to form a cybersecurity unit and not following up with it. This suggestion is exactly to minimize the problems you are talking about. Such a unit will not have to deal with pritzus or anything else. If you are not sure how to proceed, find someone professional who can help. Start fundraising and open classes. When you start this, post about the group, I’ll help, bli neder, direct that group in the right direction.
AAQ – I am not sure why you are not thanking me for the suggestion to form a cybersecurity unit and not following up with it. This suggestion is exactly to minimize the problems you are talking about. Such a unit will not have to deal with pritzus or anything else…
Been there, done that, bunch of baloney… They had some cool code name for it though…
@ AAQ
“Such a unit will not have to deal with pritzus or anything else”
This is not so because the problem is not combat vs cybersecurity. The problem is that the people in charge of your life have an agenda to make you more secular.
AAQ
you are totally misunderstanding the essence of the IDF and the leftist establishment in the legal system and the MSM
so much so , that your suggestions sound like applicable for the moon …
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you really think that the leftist establishment likes the frum settlers who do serve ?
they are looked at with deep disdain and are considered abominable and hideous
time to open your eyes to …… reality , reality , reality ….
cannot say this pivotal word often enough
this word should lodge itself in your skull and not move until it enters your brain …..
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.AAQ – Even an honest secular Israeli (there are quite a few) would laugh at some of your suggestions.
[about charedi cyber unit]
YYA> Been there, done that, bunch of baloney… They had some cool code name for it though…why baloney? please share your experience with that
AAQ – why baloney? please share your experience with that
I wasn’t there personally, the Chareidi tzibbur “been there done that”… There was such a program, which started out separate, and sure enough ended up with problems. The key is that the SC paskened that any type of gender segregation in the IDF is automatically illegal, and there is a dedicated officer (YoHaLaM) with a department and staff etc. specifically to enforce this (and other progressive #$%!).
thanks, for the explanation. So, put forward legislation that changes that and makes such units possible. And if it passes, follow up on that. If it does not, the other Israelis will see that you at least tried.
AAQ – thanks, for the explanation. So, put forward legislation that changes that and makes such units possible. And if it passes, follow up on that. If it does not, the other Israelis will see that you at least tried.
Dear Reb AAQ – as Yankel Berel and I (and a few others) have tried to explain to you many times, legislation has been passed repeatedly over the last 20 years by the democratically elected government. The problem is that the non-democratic Supreme Court (lately including the AG who acts on behalf of them instead of her legal boss = the government) continuously strikes down any and every attempt to compromise. This is done mostly by forbidding any separation of genders as discriminatory. This emboldens the non-democratic IDF leadership to fail to enforce any existing programs even those that haven’t been struck down yet, and also feminist groups to file complaints against any kind of tzniyus agreements with the Chareidi tzibur. (This also hurts women in the IDF themselves in many ways, but Progressives never care about stuff like that.) In other words THE SC DOESN’T WANT THERE TO BE A COMPROMISE, they want blood, and they are the real overlords of the powerless government.
Naive AAQ
Unelected SC [illegally] appropriated for themselves the right to cancel laws passed by the elected MK’s if they deem it ‘unreasonable’ .
Obviously SC deems refraining from gender folly ‘unreasonable’ ,
so there is no use in passing such a law ….
.AAQ really thinks that the leftist establishment likes the frum settlers who do serve ?
they are looked at with deep disdain and are considered abominable and hideous
even serving is not going to get the haredim sympathy
there is only one thing which will get them sympathy …
and that that is – joining the multitudes who threw their religion to the wayside
at the instigation of those very same secularists
time to open his eyes to …… reality , reality , reality ….
cannot say this pivotal word often enough ….
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.The personal opinions of Secular Jews (Secular Israelis and their foreign counterparts) will not change if a resolution on the draft changes. However, what would change is the increase in those who are connected to Judaism but not Very-Yeshivish (only learning) to have the opportunity to be involved in the world via being involved with the Tzahal. The issue is the fact that many people in the government aren’t pushing for compromise. The draft is basically left on the table without a resolution.
Sociological categories from older generations don’t always apply to all people especially when Klal Yisrael has grown and now has all sorts of people including Career-oriented Yeshivish people…Thus, additional social groups can form. I happen to know some people who are very connected to Judaism who willingly joined the Tzahal. One of them is still learning. But there is no particular derekh that’s good for everyone.
Many Anashim Tovim like to quote Satmar, but Satmar isn’t for everyone. In fact, I know of Satmar people that are now OTD that never joined the army. I also know a Rav Kook-type who was deeply fascinated by Satmar. However, Satmar people are the type to be closer with people of their exact background while of the Ashkenazi Jews I know aren’t like that. Many, of those that I know, married Sephardim. Satmar has a different hashkafah that affects what they prefer.
I do agree that there’s a Supreme Court that doesn’t rule in favor of Judaism, but there are many Observant Jews in the army who want more of such units such as the “Haredi” unit. The issue is that no one is stepping forward with a resolution. And in terms of the future of warfare, Cybersecurity is something that the army should increase for obvious reasons. The Haredim in the army want more of such units, but the politics that’s on the upper eccholon of the Political Elite is not based on actually solving the issue. Yes, it’s the AG’s fault, but it’s also the PM’s fault. Bibi could do more if he wanted to. He could at least form a resolution that benefits the type that want to join even if it’s rejected.
All the so-called “Hareidi units” aren’t Hareidi. They are 90+% dati leumi/religious Zionists; and a small minority of mostly OTD Hareidim.
KGN> there are many Observant Jews in the army who want more of such units such as the “Haredi” unit. … but it’s also the PM’s fault.
Maybe the goal should be to find a position that unites a large block of population. It is usually about getting 51% to push a position and then it gets bogged down somewhere in the system. It is more beneficial in a long-term to get to 60% consensus – that in this case should include a larger percentage of non-charedi religious; of “traditional”, and maybe some “secular” who want shalom in society. With 60%, you can find out that PM and others will support that. As it is now, PM needs to balance multiple interests on multiple important issues, so he can’t advocate a position where he’ll lose support on other issues.
I don’t think you can get further than 60% – NY Jews are only 67% united against the muslim socialist, while opposing groups shows at 95%.
KGN and AAQ – The PM isn’t the problem, this is 100% the SC and company.
AAQ really thinks that the leftist establishment likes the frum settlers who do serve ?
they are looked at with deep disdain and are considered abominable and hideous
even serving is not going to get the haredim sympathy
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.yankel > they are looked at with deep disdain and are considered abominable and hideous
yankel, you are obsessed with analyzing feelings of other people, whether they are posters here or abstract representatives of social groups in Israel.
As meraglim said “we were grasshoppers in their eyes”. According to your thinking, everyone is so bad that you can discount all of them/us and say/do whatever you want. There is no halachik basis for such behasvior.
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