Tagged: Forum wars
February 2, 2020 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #1828192toastParticipant
Disclaimer: I’m not talking about Yidden with TVs in their bedrooms/living room…or who watch movies…
I’m discussing more committed types. Are you OK watching the Super Bowl even though you generally don’t watch TV/movies? If yes, why the exception? How do you avoid looking at cheerleaders and inappropriate ads? And do you agree that it is better to avoid it altogether?February 3, 2020 7:54 am at 7:54 am #1828253GadolhadorahParticipant
The Cheerleaders are NOT the problem. Indeed, compared to the halftime show entertainment, one could say they are dressed relatively tzinisudik for a frum sportsfan for whom a “wardrobe malfunction” is losing his kipah in the wind. The superbowl and other megasports events are no longer “family entertainment”. Yes, even for frum sportsfans, the superbowl is treifus unless you program your TV to block the halftime show.February 3, 2020 7:54 am at 7:54 am #1828258Amil ZolaParticipant
I watch the Super Bowl, this year there were no shots of cheerleaders. They are usually not the focus of most televised games due to the camera set ups. What I don’t get is the frumma who watch the Super Bowl every year and complain about the costumes or lack thereof at the halftime shows. Seriously you know the costumes are going to be an issue so find something else to do for 30 minutes. I wanted to hear Shakira and JLo so I took the tablet into the kitchen, and while it was facing away from me I wrote out my grocery list for the month.February 3, 2020 8:14 am at 8:14 am #1828256
People rationalize all sorts of aveiros; so expect a litany of excuses here why this aveira is okay and why this aveira (pritzus and whole list of worse things) “really” isn’t such an aveira. Or that one day a year is okay to take a break from not doing aveiros.February 3, 2020 8:38 am at 8:38 am #1828302
Joseph – It breaks my heart when super bowl sunday comes around and I hear people talk about getting together to watch it. and if there is any influence to be had on the decisions of those who go, then great. but I am always amazed at the free pass you give yourself to talk this way about klal Yisroel. You have a torah obligation to be dan lkaf zchus at least as much as your thrill to denigrate. If you want to be honest, even you must admit that your advance condemning and expectations of horrible behavior is wrong al pi halacha. Please don’t allow yourself the same sweeping rationalizations you accuse them of making.
there are people who genuinely care about what klal Yisroel spends their time on , instead of just condemning them. Those people have set up different options of watching the superbowl without commercials and half time shows, or incentives to be doing something better instead. I thank those people from the bottom of my heart for not sitting back and cursing klal Yisroel, but for taking action instead. May Hashem reward them with only good.February 3, 2020 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1828310lkwdstrongParticipant
k guys- i watched the super bowl last nite. heres what i did to make it more “kosher”- i only turned it on once the first quarter started so i didnt have to see anything before (in case there was anything not ok in the pregame show or if they showed the cheerleaders…) the ads were actually pretty decent- i was prepared to shut it off if something inappropriate started playing but i was pleasantly surprised, and during the half time show i shut the whole thing off and came back when it was over!! no, i dont think im the biggest tzaddik, but i dont think i did anything soooo terrible by watching something that i have a very big yetzer hara to see.February 3, 2020 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1828343lowerourtuition11210Participant
Attended the SuperSeder event (along with hundreds of others of all ages) cosponsored by Kollel Bnai Torah (Rabbi Eisen’s Shul) and Yeshiva Aderes Hatorah (Rabbi Senter’s yeshiva) at the Aguda Yisroel Bais Binyomin (AKA Aguda of Ave L. Speakers included Rabbi Senter, The Morah Dasra Rabbi Tuvia Leiff, and Rabbi Eli Mansour.February 3, 2020 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1828373
Syag: Would you say the same if the comment was made about a gathering of Reform thinkers? Not to say the CR is full of Reformers; but there’s certainly an element of reform-minded here, even if they won’t admit as much.February 3, 2020 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1828379toastParticipant
Syag Lchochma: What a thoughtful comment. May there be more of you in Klal Yisroel and less Josephs.February 3, 2020 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1828380
Joseph is a greater tzdiak than the Rabbanin at Aish who had a Hafttime streaming ShiurFebruary 3, 2020 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #1828432Eli51Participant
I watched the super Bowl went to maariv for a good part of Halftime & when I put the TV back on way still in the middle of Halftime & turned right off & put it back on fifteen minutes later just in time for the second half. So I would say if you watch it you must turn it off for halftime & probably some or many of the commercialsFebruary 3, 2020 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #1828429GadolhadorahParticipant
I recall a wonderful story here on YWN about a year ago concerning a well know rav from EY who was visiting with family in Scotland and who was caught on the liveTV cameras broadcasting an important football (aka soccer) game with the Israeli national team. He was shown on TV with his head buried in a sefer and serenely learning while sitting next to his daughter and son-in-law who was the Jewish chaplain at a local college who had taken a bunch of bochurim to the game. I don’t recall his being queried later about being a participant in “bitul torah” but simply was enjoying a few hours with his family engaged in some health recreation. See the YWN link belowFebruary 3, 2020 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #1828417BoysWorkParticipant
A word to Joseph and his amazing technicolor krumkeit. My rav gave a drasha shabbos and he mentioned that someone, well known, was dealing with a couple of thousand OTD teens. You know what the common thread was between all of them? They didnt have interest in sports or they were stopped from watching it by people like you. There is nothing wrong with children having an outlet. You can shut off the TV during halftime. And if anything else bothers you, well then I suggest you lock yourself up in your house and never come out. There is
nothing more in the streets that there is during a football game, and as the other guy said, the commercials were pretty harmless (and dumb). My 2 cents.February 3, 2020 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1828502
Find a more appropriate way to say it or leave it deletedFebruary 3, 2020 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1828516
lakwdstrng and Eli – Good for you that you found a way to gain some ground against your yetzer hora. I would feel even better if I heard you say that you hope to do better next year, that you realize there is still danger in waiting to see if there are still uncovered women on the screen before resuming watch. Maybe watch with someone else who can safely man the dial? and ultimately, May Hashem grant you the strength one day soon to find no draw in things like this!February 3, 2020 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #1828518
A non Jewish female coworker told me this morning that the half time show was so offensive and nothing short of pornography. She was horrified that the performers allowed their own children to watch, let alone the public. She said it was unprecedented.
When I think of any of you boys, men here, or any others I cross paths with, seeing such a thing turns my stomach and breaks my heart. Sincerely and honestly.February 3, 2020 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #1828574
I’ve heard the opposite too
There’s a family I know that their son liked watching soccer so when I asked the father why he lets him the father replied “you got to pick your battles”
The kid isn’t Frum nowFebruary 3, 2020 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1828594
Amil you have a tablet?
You know how harmful to the environment those machines are when you try to dispose them??
And previous generations lived just fine without them. As a matter of fact I don’t have one and I feel no lack in my life from it.February 3, 2020 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1828595
Can someone actually explain to me the draw of watching the Super Bowl If you don’t follow the sport all season? It’s just another game.
Big deal!February 3, 2020 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #1828619
This is what I said to my wife when she asked the same question
“All other professional sports have a series to decide who’s winner except for football it’s decided in one gameFebruary 3, 2020 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #1828628DovidBTParticipant
The Super Bowl isn’t really football. It’s four hours of commercials with bits of football in between.February 3, 2020 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #1828640
Dovid from hearing people’s comments that was what I gathered but then you have all the posters claiming not to watch the commercials or the half time show.
So what exactly is the big draw?
It’s just a stupid football gameFebruary 4, 2020 12:27 am at 12:27 am #1828660
Football is cool, I used to watch the highlights. Competitive sports are exciting, and therefore fun to watch.
Thats why one would watch it.
I never have watched the superbowl though, as others mentioned, its much more a hype than a football game.
And as Joseph so succinctly put it, who gives one a heter to do aveiros once a year? It is by now well known that the half time show is full of ugliness. Ugliness that pulls, at the taavos of every yid. You wanna associate yourself with that? disgusting.
If Someone were to turn it off, that would ‘technically’ be a different cheshbon. But we all know how it goes, “i’ll turn it off when she starts singing” or only by her dancing… woops.
So my answer? There is nothing inherently assur with watching the superbowl as lomg as the pritzus can be kept out. But it is a davar megunah, being that it is so intertwined and defined by its entertainment element. Furthermore, it is clear that those who stay away are for good reason, and those who join, well, you just have to guess how sincere his “but we turned it off for the half time show” is.
1 more point, i saw someone ballyhooing about the virtues of dan lekaf zechus, you are completely missaplying that principle as do most in their chanufa of the wicked. thereby fullfilling the gemaras comment that “muttar l’hisgaros berishaim …. v’kol mi sheomer ainu, mipnei shelibo nokfo”.
I would live to take on this topic in a different thread.February 4, 2020 12:33 am at 12:33 am #1828663
speaking of ballyhooing – you obviously haven’t caught yourself up on the halacha, or more likely you didn’t bother checking what was going on in the thread to see if your sermon applies.February 4, 2020 8:05 am at 8:05 am #1828699
What exactly did Joseph say that was so bad that you publicly excoriated him. I mean specifically on this thread. You condemned him for not judging favorably.
Who? Who did he not judge favorably??
He was not talking about anyone specific.
He was talking about the general idea of people who watch this dirt and then excuse it or try to kosher it up.
It’s actually forbidden to make excuses for such behavior.
See the Chafetz Chaim in sefer Chafetz Chaim where he excoriates those who sit between מנחה ומעריב On Shabbos and just talk where he enumerate a laundry list of sins that they commit. What happened to judging favorably? Why would he not? Judge, those people favorably and said, he’s very clearly rights for posterity that they are sinners tremendous Sinners and list of their entire list of sins.
Additionally the gemara states that one who walks past a house of ill repute and says I will walk past and I will not look If there was another way that he could walk he is. is a RAsha . I ask you is there any greater modern-day equivalent of this ??
and somebody who says I will watch the Super Bowl but I will turn off the halftime show. I will not look at the commercials is that not exactly somebody who voluntarily is walking past a house of ill repute and saying I won’t look at the indecent sites.??
So the gemara call him a Rasha It does not say judge him favorably.February 4, 2020 8:22 am at 8:22 am #1828703
kluger- thank you so much for your diatribe. I do have a personal shitta not to respond to people who aren’t listening and I KNOW I am going to be sorry for making this exception.
I didn’t defend any of those people.
I didn’t tell him to be dan lkaf zchus the people who turned off the commercials.
If you wipe your drool and read back you will see that I commented on expecting the worst from klal Yisroel BEFORE they open their mouths.
You do understand the concept of before and after, right?
Move on.February 4, 2020 8:59 am at 8:59 am #1828708
And another thing why does judging favorably always end when it comes to Joseph supposed. It seems that one comes to Joseph. There’s no commandment to judge favorably. How interesting could it perhaps be because Joseph makes people uncomfortable so they go on the defensive. When people see others Sending to God. It doesn’t bother them. So they are very quick to spout the judge favorably line. However, as soon as it becomes personal and they feel like somebody perhaps it’s attacking them they forget about the whole business with judging favorably and immediately, they start condemning and insulting very very interestingFebruary 4, 2020 8:59 am at 8:59 am #1828709
BEFORE what? This forum is over ten years old already with a demonstrated track record of certain commentaters here regularly defending the indefensible; specifically the aveiros that were referenced and much worse.
The Chofetz Chaim that KlugerYid referenced also generically referred to those the heilige Chofetz Chaim severely criticized BEFORE many of those who fell into the categories he described opened their mouths. Specifically to discourage them from doing so. But here we already have a decade of proven mouth openings defending aveiros.February 4, 2020 9:07 am at 9:07 am #1828713
kluger – IF you actually read the post you would have your answers.
IF I was defending the superbowl watchers you would be correct.
IF anything Joseph said applied to me you can rant about defensiveness.
Assuming you are here for the drama, perhaps I can interest you in an additional set of cotton balls.February 4, 2020 10:05 am at 10:05 am #1828737
Wow syag not sure what set you off like. That.
I wiped my drool and I went back and reread his post.
Here it is in its entirety
”People rationalize all sorts of aveiros; so expect a litany of excuses here why this aveira is okay and why this aveira (pritzus and whole list of worse things) “really” isn’t such an aveira. Or that one day a year is okay to take a break from not doing aveiros.”
Where is he badmouthing ”כלל ישראל”?
He is talking (so it states) about those who will defend waiting this filth. That’s it.
And he is clearly posting in a (properly in my opinion) derogatory manner about THOSE WHO WILL DO SO.
Nowhere can I find that he insinuates even, that this applies to the entirety of our nation.
Please show me which words in the comment I copied say otherwise.
Yes I’m listening.
What’s with the cotton balls?
I don’t have a first set so I’m not yet up to getting, another.
Maybe you should be dan me likaf zechus that I am honestly interested in a real exchange of ideas.
Or does the fact that I defended Josef (whom I do not know personally, nor do I even know who he is) exclude me from that mitzvah as well?February 4, 2020 10:28 am at 10:28 am #1828742
The Superbowl is not just a game, its an event. People get together , eat together and watch the game together.
thats why even not sports fans watch it.
If you can learn all day without breaks, then you should not be bittual torah for it, but for those of us not on that madreiga of the Choftez Chaim or other gedoli yisroel we need to pick our battlesFebruary 4, 2020 10:29 am at 10:29 am #1828741
“Maybe you should be dan me likaf zechus that I am honestly interested in a real exchange of ideas.”
If that was the case you would have stated, not spewed. and you would have stuck to the facts. But if I am wrong, then stating that would be sufficient. Assuming I responded because you were defending Josef is just dumb. and implies you aren’t commenting on the topic at hand at all. I have defended Josef’s views when appropriate and agreed with him when appropriate. Again, if you were commenting on the facts presented, you would have responded differently if you were actually interested as opposed to jumping in on a “joseph situation”. If I judged you wrong, thank you for letting me know. I make a tremendous effort to look at lots of sides before I say anything both here and in real life. When they are not putting down Torah values, the frum community or making a chilul Hashem I will go out of my way to find any idea that will judge them favorably.
There is a list a million miles long of things I don’t do or don’t do well but giving a limud zchus is something I work very hard on and don’t take lightly.February 4, 2020 11:02 am at 11:02 am #1828747
zdad – that is one of the lamest rationalizations so far. Seriously.
I can’t be Einstein so why take physics. And as long as I’m not taking chemistry either, why not mix dangerous chemicals since I’m not a chemist anyway.February 4, 2020 11:02 am at 11:02 am #1828748
Again, if I was wrong about your intent, I apologizeFebruary 4, 2020 11:03 am at 11:03 am #1828749
Syag how About just answering my Question.?
There is alot of verbiage in your latest comment. I don’t have the strength to pick through it all. But a few.
I spewed? How would one tell the difference in written words?
I didn’t stick to facts? Exactly what did I say that was conjecture?
You are making all sorts of assumptions about my comment, starting with stating that I am not interested in hearing what you have to say, then you tell me that I’m the one who is not sticking to facts.
Years ago from the tone and content of some of your comments I thought you were a man. When you posted at some point that you are a woman I was not sure if you were playing.
Now you’ve proved your femalehoodFebruary 4, 2020 11:27 am at 11:27 am #1828777
nothing proves sincerity like a personal insult.February 4, 2020 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #1828786
Its not lame at all, the problem is when someone is told to act like someone greater than them, and they fail, many times the con sequences are worse.
If someone cannot live up to be the Chofetz Chaim (Which they cant) they might give up saying its too hard (Making things too hard only creates opportunties for failure) . Better to live up to your best and not the Chofetz Chaim, You can succeed at being your best, you cannot succeed at being the Chofetz ChaimFebruary 4, 2020 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1828789
syag i assume you are reffering to this?
but I am always amazed at the free pass you give yourself to talk this way about klal Yisroel
as much as your thrill to denigrate.
you obviously haven’t caught yourself up on the halacha, or more likely you didn’t bother checking what was going on in the thread to see if your sermon applies.
kluger- thank you so much for your diatribe.
If you wipe your drool and read back
You do understand the concept of before and after, right?
IF you actually read the post you would have your answers.
Assuming you are here for the drama, perhaps I can interest you in an additional set of cotton balls.
oh, wait! those werent said by me. they were said by you !
sorry i got confused
i guess you mean because i called you a woman who thinks like a woman?
thats a personal insult?
so sorryFebruary 4, 2020 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1828793midwesternerParticipant
I had a grandson’s bris in Yerushalayim on Monday morning. BH I did not even have the nisayon of watching any of it, as it started at 1:30 AM.February 4, 2020 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1828792
zdad, no pritzus is expected of EVERY Jew, not just our Chofetz Chaim’s.February 4, 2020 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #1828816
You write that there is no commandment to judge favorably? That what you meant?February 4, 2020 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1828812
“zdad, no pritzus is expected of EVERY Jew, not just our Chofetz Chaim’s.“
We’re not talking pritzus here, we’re talking watching a football game while turning it off for the pritzus and watching something yid appropriate (Chazak or Simcha leiner)February 4, 2020 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #1828828
We’re not talking pritzus here, we’re talking watching a football game while turning it off for the pritzus and watching something yid appropriate (Chazak or Simcha leiner)
Aish had a halftime shiurFebruary 4, 2020 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #1828827
Also i take exception to your comment at syag that she is “thinking like a female” besides it being insulting as in to say that females cannot be as rational as men, it is also not an argument based on the merits of a disagreement.
Regarding the actual position that you seemingly assume, that females are less logical than males, or that males in general are smarter, i think it is a fascinating discussion. I really am interested in what the torah says about this, its a great topic for another thread. [actually it would theoretically be a great topic, save for the intense emotional and personal tone its bound to assume]. i’ll leave it to you to figure what gender i am… this is gonna be fun : )February 4, 2020 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1828876
i didnt say exactly that there is no chiyuv dan likaf zechus
i said and i have sources (starters in the chafetz chaim ) that an average person doing something which has greater than 50% odds of being wrong, one does not need to judge them favorably. a straight reading of the chafetz chaim actually says its forbidden to judge them favorably, but there are those who argue on his understanding of the source)
so in this discussion where we are really just discussing an idea, as there are no specific people being discussed, its difficult to fathom why or by what right one would look to judge favorably people who choose to walk past the door of the house of ill reputeFebruary 4, 2020 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #1828877
yes i think women on the whole are more emotional and less logical
no i dont think that correlates with “smart”
there is a thread “nashim daatan kalos”
i dont know if you are male or female nor do i careFebruary 4, 2020 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #1828902rationalParticipant
For those who enjoy watching the Super Bowl, but are committed to Torah, the solution is simple.
1. Perform the greatest mitzvah of all, Yishuv Eretz Yisrael. The game is in the middle of the night. Go to sleep.
2. Wake up, daven in shul, then watch the condensed game. No cheerleaders, no half-time show, no commercials. 42 minutes and done.February 4, 2020 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #1828920
Your well put, though i would clarify that the chofetz chaim in B’er mayim chaim says as such only for a person who you do not know, while still positing that its a midas chasidus to judge even him favorably.
– regarding women being more emotional, that doesnt necessarily equate with less logical, though it very well may, however in that case it behooves you to stick to logical discourse and not saunter down the path of “virtue by gender” no?
However i Happen to very much agree with a lot of what you write and always enjoy seeing how you respond to others. You come across as knowledgeable. And i find myself agreeing with you (think target story :0).
however as in the case above you responded while on afterburner and thus clarity was lost…
And just in case you do ever start to wonder, I’m a guy. Though truthfully i am still unsure about the gemarah that sais ashrei mi shebonov zecharim…..February 4, 2020 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #1828963
I did say there were those who did not take the view that it is forbidden. I didn’t remember who. I guess it was the c c himself.
Thank you for your compliments.
As you yourself pointed out. I usually ignore personal insults and I don’t report to them either as, as we both know they add nothing to a discussion.
In this case I just saw it was going nowhere fast and I thought maybe it would shake her up to respond rationally in order to disprove my point.
It seems not to have worked though.February 4, 2020 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #1828975
oh wow, thank you so much for having my best interest at heart. It sounded more like a knee jerk defensive response than a plan to help me grow but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt 😘
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