July 16, 2010 4:36 am at 4:36 am #591975
I noticed as of late that many business people and some non business people are very lax about wearing hats and jackets especially to mincha and especially in the spring and summer. Has anyone else noticed this? Why the recent laxity in kovod hatefillah?July 16, 2010 4:47 am at 4:47 am #690469KashaMember
WIY — you are absolutely correct.
Some previous discussions:July 16, 2010 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #690470rescue37Participant
I rather daven with a minyan of non hat jacket wearers than of that with wearers that chap a minyan on the quarter hour. That is much less lavod hatefilah to have a minyan factory.July 16, 2010 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #690471
rescue, You don’t have to compromise in one area for the other area.July 16, 2010 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #690473
“There are way more issues faces Klal Yisroel today, than this one.”
More pressing issues are no excuse to be less vigilant on “less pressing” issues. Halacha requires a hat and jacket today (see MB) regardless of what we did in the midbar.July 16, 2010 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #690477
There is no relevance of what Moshe Rabbeinu wore for this purpose. We are required to wear the Jewish uniform of our time.
And make no mistake about it. While the uniform did change over time, there always was and is a Jewish uniform.July 16, 2010 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #690478
Mr. Max Well Shmart:
“We are required to wear the Jewish uniform of our time.”
Why?July 16, 2010 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #690479
I tell you, sometimes threads like this make me just want to not daven at all. 🙁
The WolfJuly 16, 2010 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #690480
Because you are a son of Hashem, a prince of the palace, a royal soldier, a king and a priest.July 16, 2010 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #690481
Why not? We did so in Mitzrayim, are we to abandon it today??July 16, 2010 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #690482
“Why not” is not a great answer. We don’t need the Mitzrayim connectors since we have the Torah Hakedoysha (not my vort).
Come on, there is a better answer.July 16, 2010 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #690483
Thank you gavraJuly 16, 2010 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #690484
Baruch T’Heye, Reb. Mod.July 16, 2010 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #690485rescue37Participant
If we need to wear the uniform of our time, then wouldn’t a suit be required at davening during the week and a nicer suit on shabbos? How does wearing an old shabbos hat and mismatched old shabbos jacket become a presentable uniform?July 16, 2010 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #690486
When I was 21 my Rebbe told us, if you wont wear it on a date, dont wear it to davening. A reference to the dusty smashed hats and filthy, sometimes torn, jackets we would haphazardly throw over our shoulders and precariously perch on the backs of our heads.July 16, 2010 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #690487
Your Rebbe was telling you (and it isn’t clear you understood him) that you should wear a bakovidik hat and jacket both on dates and of course in shul.July 16, 2010 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #690488
Your Rebbe was telling you (and it isn’t clear you understood him) that you should wear a bakovidik hat and jacket both on dates and of course in shul.
Funny, I didn’t wear a hat and jacket when I was dating my wife… and I still don’t when we go on dates today. I guess I’m not showing her enough kavod. 🙁
The WolfJuly 16, 2010 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #690490SJSinNYCMember
Wolf, if you help out at home, then you are SURELY not showing her enough kavod. It is undermining her obligations to cleaning. Make sure to never lift a finger and you’ll do fine 🙂July 16, 2010 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #690491
Wolf, if you help out at home, then you are SURELY not showing her enough kavod. It is undermining her obligations to cleaning.
You laugh, but I know that there are some who actually take that view. Very sad.
The WolfJuly 16, 2010 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #690492
Max Well. when are you available for chazaras hashiur?July 16, 2010 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #690493
Speak to Rebbi and get back to me.July 16, 2010 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #690494
I wont understand him anyway. I might as well get it straight from you, who seem to know better.July 16, 2010 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #690495Mayan_DvashParticipant
You’re missing the point: Hachana for Tefilah – mentally prepare yourself to daven.July 16, 2010 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #690496blinkyParticipant
I don’t understand why ppl wouldn’t wear a jacket by davening. Would you go in front of a king w/o it? Or maybe on todays level-would you walk into a court to fight a speeding ticket without it on? Its just more put together and dignified looking. Period.July 16, 2010 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #690497AinOhdMilvadoParticipant
To ME, hachana for tefilla means straightening up your clothes (whatever they are), washing your hands, and mental hachana.
Do you mean to tell me that if someone is an electrician or a plumber, etc. and is wearing work clothes (maybe not even so clean) that he is expected to change clothes?!?
Or maybe he should daven b’yachidus?!?July 16, 2010 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #690498
R’ Chaim Kanievsky has letters printed in a few seforim where he says that it’s better to daven b’yechidus with a hat & jacket than in a minyan without it.July 16, 2010 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #690500
I don’t understand why ppl wouldn’t wear a jacket by davening. Would you go in front of a king w/o it?
Would you go in front of a king in *anything* but your best finery? If not, then why not wear your best clothing to every davening?
I know I’m an idiot who can’t put two sentences together cogently to save his life, but, I’ve always found that argument to be very specious. If you’re going to make the argument that HKBH only deserves the best, then you should wear your best suit, shower, polish your shoes, etc. before every tefillah. What? You don’t do that? Would you go before a king without doing all those things?
The WolfJuly 16, 2010 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #690501blinkyParticipant
Wolf-you are correct we really should do it like we are going to a king, but i switched my example to going to court because that is s/t more on our level that we can understand and do. In the olden days im sure rabbonim dressed as if they were meeting with a king to daven but i don’t think we can achieve that today.
“I know I’m an idiot who can’t put two sentences together cogently to save his life,”-and why do you say this? I actually enjoy your posts and think that you have a pretty logical way of thinking (e/t I might not necessarily agree with you)July 16, 2010 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #690502chofetzchaimMember
How does wearing an old shabbos hat and mismatched old shabbos jacket become a presentable uniform?
I agree. It is a bizayon to the tefilla the way some people dress in the name of frumkeit. When I was Bar Mitzvah my mother told me I can wear a hat and jacket for davening as long as the jacket matches and the hat is worn properly with the brim down.
Here’s a question for the hot, summer months: is it better to stand in front of Hashem sweating in a hat and jacket in the 100 degree heat that can take away your concentration, or to daven without the hat and jacket and be able to concentrate better and be more presentable by not dripping with sweat?July 16, 2010 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #690503
We SHOULD do that before every davening. nevertheless we do what we can. our failure to live up to the highest ideals should not prevent us from striving towards them.
besides its an an analogy wolf, as you know an analogy is an analogy.
i dont know why you feel it imperative to knock down every ideal you see posted here. i suppose in the interest in seeking the truth.July 16, 2010 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #690504
i dont know why you feel it imperative to knock down every ideal you see posted here.
I don’t feel an imperative to knock down every ideal. I do feel an imperative to protest when someone tries to make the ideal de riguer on everyone else. But what the heck, we all know that I’m far from the ideal Yid anyway, so I suppose it’s only natural for me to go after the lowest hanging fruit.
The WolfJuly 16, 2010 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #690505
“is it better to stand in front of Hashem sweating in a hat and jacket in the 100 degree heat that can take away your concentration, or to daven without the hat and jacket and be able to concentrate better and be more presentable by not dripping with sweat?”
There aren’t many shuls around without air conditioning during the summer. Even if there is, I believe Rav Chaim Kanievsky answered your shaila – see above.July 16, 2010 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #690506
okay, it just seemed that way.July 16, 2010 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #690507
my feeling would be that if you are noheg to always daven with a hat and coat, that you should do so even in situations of discomfort (unless there is a possibility of actually becoming sick) and consider it an opportunity to invoke your powers of concentration to try to not pay attention to the discomfort, ideally.July 16, 2010 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #690508
okay, it just seemed that way.
Truth of the matter is that I have two sons. One wears a hat and jacket to davening and one does not. I don’t knock the one who doesn’t and while I do encourage the one who does, I don’t praise him to the point where it will make the other feel negatively about not doing so.
The WolfJuly 16, 2010 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #690509SDRMember
Where did this so called uniform come from anyways? I don’t mean a hat & jacket, but the whole black & white thing. I’d rather dress like am alter Mirrer.July 20, 2010 12:37 am at 12:37 am #690510
The concept of one considering to enter a makom kedusha without a hat and jacket, is a difficult one to contemplate.
Really a Yid should wear a hat and jacket anywhere he goes.July 20, 2010 3:38 am at 3:38 am #690511
“R’ Chaim Kanievsky has letters printed in a few seforim where he says that it’s better to daven b’yechidus with a hat & jacket than in a minyan without it.”
I’m not mikabel.July 20, 2010 3:45 am at 3:45 am #690512
“The concept of one considering to enter a makom kedusha without a hat and jacket, is a difficult one to contemplate.”
“Really a Yid should wear a hat and jacket anywhere he goes.”
If you wear your hat and jacket everywhere you go, then it goes without saying you should wear it into a makon kadosh. the question is, how is your hat and jacket anything special for davening or do you have a special davening jacket? do you put on a tie? Do you wear your hat with brim up in the street and down by davening?July 20, 2010 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #690513kids at risk rabbiMember
i think people here are missing the boat
nobody is saying that there isnt kovod by wearing a hat or jacket for davening.it all depends on your hashkafa
in todays day and age the hat and jacket became important and davening doesnt. people tell me all the time i would become frum but i dont want to wear the uniform
if u would ask hashem “do u want daveners or hat and jacket wearers”? what would he say?
[just so everybody knows im a black hatter and try to wear my hat and jacket all the time for tefilla}
i think we should stress going to davening and what its about and then work on halochos and kovodJuly 20, 2010 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #690514smartcookieMember
Whoever made a big deal when obama entered the oval office without a jacket…
There is some kind of respect when wearing a jacket and hat. It should be worn when talking to Hashem.July 20, 2010 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #690515Feif UnParticipant
The Mishna Berurah says that you should wear a hat and jacket to davening because that was the respectful mode of dress in those days – i.e. if you were going to visit the president, you would have worn a hat and jacket. In modern times, this is not the case. If anything, in many places considered “respectful” areas, such as a courtroom, you’re not allowed to wear a hat. Therefore, the MB’s opinion of wearing a hat and jacket doesn’t apply today.July 20, 2010 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #690516
I would like to see that paskened inside a sefer that bezman hazeh one doesnt need to wear a hat and jacket by davening. Just because the world went nuts and nobody has respect for anything anymore doesnt mean wearing a hat is not the way to show respect. Until the last few decades all gentlemen and respectable govt figures wore hats.July 20, 2010 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #690517
I sincerely doubt any lawyer would show up in court to represent his client in front of a baaser vdom judge without a jacket.
Is Hashem any less?July 20, 2010 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #690518Derech HaMelechMember
Whoever wrote about Rav Chaim Kanievsky saying that it is better to wear a hat and jacket and daven b’yichidus over davening with a minyan without a hat and jacket- I just looked it up in the shu”t Sh’eilos Rav (p. 194).
Which is preferable- to daven with a minyan without a hat and jacket (beged elyon) or b’yichidus with them?
Is it enough to wear a tallis (gadol) over the shirt without a jacket (beged elyon) during davening?
L’chatchila it is not correct.
According to the din does a person have to cover his head with two coverings during davening or is the whole hakpada just to have a hat on and it is unnecessary to have another covering under the hat?
It is good to cover with two coverings.July 20, 2010 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #690519fabieMember
I try to always have mine on. Maybe open a hat and jacket incentive. A dollar a day help keeps the hat and jacket on.July 20, 2010 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #690520
Are you nor embarrassed to suggest that?July 21, 2010 3:25 am at 3:25 am #690522
Derech HaMelech: thank you for providing the source to HaRav Kanievsky’s statement that its better to daven beyichidus with a hat and jacket than in a minyan without a hat and jacket.July 21, 2010 3:46 am at 3:46 am #690523
WIY: If it is SOOOOO important that some claim R’ Chaim Kanievsky says it is better to daven beyichidus that to daven without a hat and jacket, then why is ANY incentive to get people to do so, so silly? (Yes, I know you didnt say it is silly, but I cant come up with any other reason why you feel he should be embarrassed at the suggestion).July 21, 2010 4:32 am at 4:32 am #690524oomisParticipant
“It is good to cover with two coverings. “
It is good does not mean the same thing as it is mandatory. I do not believe that question was answered as a p’sak halacha. The loshon is ambiguous. A lot of things might sound “good” but are not actually required. Is there a single poseik who says you may not allow a young man in to daven with a minyan if he has no hat on? If so, who is he and what are his precise words?
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