Hechsher on soaps and sponges?

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  • #595057
    ef613
    Member

    Hello, can anyone pelase tell me why people are makpid all year around to only use soaps and sponges that have a hechsher?

    #743824
    real-brisker
    Member

    Because soap can have Triefa fats and oils in it.

    #743825

    Does Popa know if Starbucks cleans with agents that have hechsherim?

    #743826
    boredstiff
    Participant

    The soap touches all your dishes and pots, so it needs to be kosher, although I never heard of sponges that need/have a hechsher.

    #743827
    shlomozalman
    Member

    sponges should not be manufactured on shabbos

    #743828
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    sponges should not be manufactured on shabbos

    Neither should pots and pans… but you’re not makpid on that, are you?

    The Wolf

    #743829
    always here
    Participant

    “sponges should not be manufactured on shabbos”

    shlomozalman~ that is an hysterical, absurd comment! 😉

    I apologize to the poster shlomozalman for criticizing him publicly in this post. My comment has since been deleted

    #743830
    mamashtakah
    Member

    sponges should not be manufactured on shabbos

    Was your clothing manufactured on Shabbat?

    #743831

    bordstiff, most sponges are “pre-soaped.” If you’ll look at the packaging you’ll often see some mist on the plastic and when you take it out of the packaging it’s often moist – hence the need for a hechsher.

    #743832

    BS”D

    I serve sponges cooked in tomato sauce on Purim; it is an old minhag in Chelm and Szarkonosvary.

    #743833
    cherrybim
    Participant

    It’s all baba meisa, no hashgacha needed for soap or sponges. But once you have hashgacha for one brand, it creates the status quo.

    #743834
    Understand
    Member

    Most soaps have an ou. Just check the bottle.

    #743835

    its not a bubba meisa.

    i dont know the din in Halacha

    but i dont want to wash my dishes (or even my face) with traces of pig lard.

    maybe youll tell me they dont use lard anymore, could be, i have no idea, but i like to know a Kashrus organization is watching it. i feel better, and cleaner.

    #743836
    cherrybim
    Participant

    Pass the soap.

    No soap, Radio. Ha Ha Ha.

    #743837
    #743838

    some salient quotes:

    The common custom nowadays is to use permit all soaps, even when containing non-kosher materials . Although there are Gedolei Yisroel, past and present, that are known to have been privately cautious in this area, vigilance from soaps is considered a chumra. The accepted practice amongst the masses is to use all soaps.

    A lenient position based on the gemara in Avodah Zarah should apply even if dishwashing soap would contain non-kosher components in significant proportions. However, it is interesting to note that in reality the likelihood that a soap would contain non-kosher or animal derivatives is very minimal .

    Like all other issues, consumers should consult their Rabbonim for direction.

    #743839

    so i believe cherrybim is essentially correct

    i still dont like the calling of such concerns a bubba maisah however

    #743840
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    shlomozalman is probably in EY, where there is an issue of Meleches Yisroel.

    #743841
    cherrybim
    Participant

    If it will enhance shalom bais, use the hashgacha soap.

    #743842
    always here
    Participant

    “Sodium tallowate, a common ingredient in many soaps, is derived from rendered beef fat.” sorry, I don’t want that on my dishes, utensils, or skin

    #743843
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    See YD 95:4 Here:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9145&st=&pgnum=435

    Mechaber holds if you wash pots which contain meat and milk in the same pot, we can be meikel as long as there was also ashes (soap) in the pot.

    Taz, 95:14-15 is skeptical. He says if so it should be muttar if you wash your pot with soap that is made of non kosher fat as long as the soap contains ashes. He does not buy it.

    Yet, the heter is accepted. Generally, we will say if there was soap present in any issur, it is muttar bdieved.

    I don’t even think the soap should be a problem lechatchila, since the soap is already made, and itself is already b’dieved. (I am speculating)

    I would eat the soap.

    (Contrast 103:1-3. An issur which creates an unpleasant taste does not make a food assur. 103:1. Even if it only creates an unpleasant taste due to the presence of a third ingredient. 103:2.

    Apparently, the case in 103 is that due to the presence of the third ingredient, the issur actually did impart unpleasantness. In 95, the issur is still adding pleasant taste; it just happens to be mixed together with the unpleasant stuff.)

    #743844
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Taz, 95:14-15 is skeptical. He says if so it should be muttar if you wash your pot with soap that is made of non kosher fat as long as the soap contains ashes. He does not buy it.

    Does that mean it’s not a bubba maaseh?

    #743845
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Kind of. There is pretty valid support for his position. He notes that the position of the Mechaber does not appear in any rishonim. Look at it, I put the link.

    #743846
    ha ha ha ha
    Member

    Mod-80 well i never saw shampoos and face washes with a hecsher…. i guess you have to wash your hair and face with dishwashing liquid….

    #743848
    apushatayid
    Participant

    So, if one only uses cold water to wash their dishes, must one be makpid according to the Taz that the soap have a hechsher? I only use dish soap with a hechsher because my wife insists on it, not because my Rav does. In truth, its hard to find without.

    #743850
    cherrybim
    Participant

    All proofs from past poskim concerning non-kosher soap is not valid bizman hazeh , because even if there were a non-kosher fat in the soap, in our times the process entails a chemical transformation that renders (excuse the pun) the soap a non-fat entity.

    There are similar items and foods used today that start out with a non-kosher ingredient but the chemical transformation allows it for kosher use.

    #743851
    hello99
    Participant

    PBA: A more appropriate source would be the discussion in YD 103 if ????? ????? ????? ??? is mutar or patur. According to most Achronim it is not ??? ??????. see Pri Chadash, Pri Toar, Chavos Daas etc

    #743852
    hello99
    Participant

    cherrybim: whether a treif item that becomes inedible in the preocessing looses its non-kosher status is not at all a given. See Mishnas Reb Ahron and Igros Moshe who are machmir on gelatin.

    #743853
    cherrybim
    Participant

    But is matir soap.

    #743854
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    But is matir soap.

    Because you don’t eat soap?

    #743856
    hello99
    Participant

    cherrybim: I don’t disagree that soap is mutar, just with your logic that a chemical transformation automatically converts a non-kosher item into a kosher one.

    #743857
    cherrybim
    Participant

    It’s the logic of poskim, I can’t take credit.

    #743858
    hello99
    Participant

    As I pointed out, neither Reb Ahron Kotler nor Reb Moshe Feinstein agree with you.

    #743859
    bezalel
    Participant

    for the full story:

    http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/articles/single_print/1377692

    This just leads to more questions.

    1) Does the OU rely on the Pri Chodosh or not?

    2) Why do they certify so many dishwashing and laundry detergents but *no body soap?

    *I’m not certain but I don’t recall seeing a hechser on body soaps.

    #743860
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    hello99:

    I am not familiar with the soap making process. If the tarfus is degraded in itself, then we could apply the rules you reference.

    However, we can go further than that, since here we are not eating the soap; there is only nesinas taam. Therefore, we can use the rules of n”t lfgam that I referenced which are more meikel.

    Now, can you elaborate on the din of nveila sh’eina reuya l’ger? It looks to me like the Mechaber is matir when a rov issur falls into a miut heter and it is pagum lgamri in siif 2.

    #743861
    cherrybim
    Participant

    “As I pointed out, neither Reb Ahron Kotler nor Reb Moshe Feinstein agree with you.”

    Sorry to disappoint you, but I’m no posek.

    .

    #743862
    cherrybim
    Participant

    So it seems that Rav Moshe and Rav Aharon may indeed hold of the s’vara of chemical transformation, but assir the gelatin from a non kosher animal for a different reason.

    The posek who was matir gelatin made from pig’s bones was Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinski. Have you heard of him?

    #743863
    Homeowner
    Member

    Mod-80 said,

    i dont want to wash my dishes (or even my face) with traces of pig lard.

    You have said in previous postings that you are a doctor, presumably of medicine. Tell us, who gives the hashgocha on Hibiclens or Purell?

    #743864

    There may be a parve substitute for gelatin. Agar Agar when mixed with fruit water solidifies like Jello. I am not sure if Agar Agar needs a hetchsher or not. This is definitely a shailah with a Mashgiach in a Kahrus Company who has a background in Food Chemistry.

    #743865
    oomis
    Participant

    Since most of the items mentioned are probably made in Japan or China, etc. I doubt the Shabbos issue is shayach. Soap on the other hand might contain tarfus in it.

    #743866
    hello99
    Participant

    Not true!!!

    “Sorry to disappoint you, but I’m no posek”

    True! so why do you make a blanket statement permitting transformed foods.

    I am familiar with the teshuva in Achiezer, Rav Abramsky was also matir. But if you are NOT a Posek, why do you take sides in a machlokes.

    #743867
    cherrybim
    Participant

    hello: You say, “Not true”

    Are you saying that the Rav Hamachshir for kosher gelatin requires that it come from animals that had sh’chita? Hello, is that a new shita?

    I didn’t permit transformed foods, poskim have.

    I have not said anything anywhere that would imply that I hold of any shita that disagrees with Rav Moshe. And whose side are you on?

    #743868
    Health
    Participant

    From the cRc:

    “Bar-soap has always been made from (non-kosher) animal fat and there are respected halachic authorities that hold that one should not use such soap for washing their body. However, the common practice is to be lenient on this issue because (a) many disagree with the aforementioned opinion and (b) some argue that our soaps are sufficiently inedible that even the stricter opinion would agree that they can be used in spite of their being made from non-kosher animal fat.”

    #743869
    Health
    Participant

    From th OK -Kosher Kitchen:

    “Also necessary are separate sets of draining boards, draining racks, dish sponges, scouring pads, dish towels, and tablecloths. Dish soap, cleanser, and scouring pads used for dishes and pots must have a hechsher (kashrut certification).”

    #743870

    Agar Agar is Kosher. I googled about the Kashrus of agar agar. This is what I found. In an email correspndence Miriam Wudowsski of OK certifying agency said, “kosher gelatin is made from kosher fish/or agar agar”. oomis I don’t understand how the country of origin affect whether agar agar may be used to make Kosher Jello on Shabbas, Chagim, maybe with the exception with chag Pesach, and during the year. If agar agar is kosher certified and parve, and can be used as a vegetarian substitute for fleishig kosher gelatin what is the problem?

    #743871
    hello99
    Participant

    cherrybim: “Are you saying that the Rav Hamachshir for kosher gelatin requires that it come from animals that had sh’chita?”

    Absolutely. The Poskim who forbid gelatin from a beheima temeia would equalyy forbid from a neveila. All Hechsherim follow the machmir opinions, including Rav Belsky and Rav Shachter at the OU.

    “Hello, is that a new shita?”

    Not at all.

    “I didn’t permit transformed foods, poskim have.

    I have not said anything anywhere that would imply that I hold of any shita that disagrees with Rav Moshe.”

    But the Poskim who permit transformed foods are disagreeing with Reb Moshe!!!

    #743872
    cherrybim
    Participant

    EXCEPTED FROM THE ORTHODOX UNION PUBLICATION:

    There are many soaps today in which tallow is only a minority ingredient and still others in which the presence of tallow is difficult to determine. According to some authorities, there is a basis for leniency in both of these cases.

    It is also important to note that many liquid soaps are actually detergent, not soap, and therefore they may not contain any animal fat at all.

    #743873
    cherrybim
    Participant

    hello99 – You are misleading the CR readership because you make implications and assumptions and present them as definitive fact.

    Your entire post is presumption presented as fact; and in fact is not true at all.

    I spoke to with the Rav Hamachshir of a kashrus agency last night who told me that kosher gelatin does not necessarily come from animals that have had sh’chita.

    You have not addressed the issue that kosher gelatin is pareve even though its origins are meat.

    #743874
    Health
    Participant

    cherrybim “hello99 – You are misleading the CR readership because you make implications and assumptions and present them as definitive fact.”

    Funny you are doing the same thing here-

    “It’s all baba meisa, no hashgacha needed for soap or sponges. But once you have hashgacha for one brand, it creates the status quo.”

    I proved that the kashrus agencies hold there is a difference between hand soap and soap or dishwashing hand liquid/ soap sponges. I also found that they seem to hold that the powder or liquid going actually into the dishwasher doesn’t need a hechsher because it’s sufficiently strong that it’s poison. But it seems that all seem to hold that what you hand wash your dishes with- needs or should be kosher as opposed to body soap or actual dishwashing machine powder. Hence all the hechsherim on those liquid dish detergents. You might not have meant this in your above post, but you are misleading people!

    #743876
    hello99
    Participant

    cherrybim: I remember the good old days when the moderators would delete gratuitous, personal attacks.

    Anyways, basar b’chalv is not an issue with gelatin because it is a taam kalush that cannot create a new issur, just like nat bar nat. However, temea and neveila are already assur even when only a taam kalush and have not heter of nat bar nat or here with gelatin.

    As I have said previously, I consider all soap kosher, but not because of certain Poskim who hold a blanket rule that all transformed products are kosher. You have not answered how you can quote Rav Grodzinsky as an unquestioned fact and ignore Reb Moshe arguing.

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