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sechel says j said not to keep mitsvos
mathew said j said to keep mitsvos
gmara sechel brings is not unanimously accepted as referring the founder of the xtian religion
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but I hear sechels safek proof
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.1] yehoshua b prachya lived much before the historical j we are talking about
so the j which is our subject was not the talmid discussed in that gmara
2] the second gmara mentions that j was busy with kishuf , which might explain the so-called wonders he allegedly performed
and that j was meisit umediach et yisrael
a term which normally is used for causing and promoting avoda zara
gmara does not state which avoda zara
the only avoda zara from those times we know about , is the belief and worship of j himself
so , besides j’s kishuf
and j’s promotion of self worship
he would not be worthy of any punishment
possibly because he was a shomer torah in all other aspects
if we are to believe this pupil of j , called mathew
.
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in other words according to the abovej was a shomer torah but in addition to his proclaimed shmirat mitsvot and professed belief in nits’hiyut hatorah , he was also
a self proclaimed navi , a self proclaimed messiah who promoted self worship and performed so called ‘miracles’ with the power of the samech mem.
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.I know firsthand of many attempts by xtians to draw on the similarities between the late rebbi of habad and their j ,
to justify and promote their own dead god
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.should habad not take this into consideration before they embark on their roller coaster novel theological experiments
designed to inflate and overstate their own leader’s importance ???
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.To Sechel
I’m sure you’re aware that logical arguments fall on Lubavitchers deaf ears. The Christian belief that J is the son of God is accepted by billions. Is the Chabad belief any less insane? Schneerson had a dream when he was 3 years old that he became the ruler of the world. Many Rabbis explain that all other religions begin with a single individual who claims to have had a Divine visitation. In contrast, all the Jewish nation heard the first 2 Commandments directly from Hashem. That’s why we know that our religion is true and the others including Schneerson’s latest are false.
sechel (sorry it’s from 3 days ago, but I’ve been busy): “Larger than life is not a good source. Look in the back where he gets the story from – one chasid -. Just a rumor.”
Yep, and thus far less reliable than all the garbage made up by the real chassidim.
…. in other words , according to the above
j was a shomer torah
but in addition to his proclaimed shmirat mitsvot and professed belief in nits’hiyut hatorah , he was also
a self proclaimed navi , and
a self proclaimed messiah who promoted self worship and
performed so called ‘miracles’ with the power of the samech mem.
.does anyone see similarities ?
.
To ARSo
I mentioned in an earlier post how Chabad dismissed Rav Shach and Dr. Berger. They take it one step further with regard to Rabbi Deutsch. They ignore whatever he wrote by saying that Rabbi Deutsch wanted to be the next Rebbe and therefore he made up lies about the Rebbe.
So I guess qwerty just admitted that he doesn’t believe in gemara. (regarding the gemaras about nevuah and every jew being redeemed, we went thru this already)
Just pointing it out. I wonder if he reform? Who am I debating with??!!@yankel berel
There are different options
By j we have chazal telling us the facts, you can’t argue with chazalI only noticed this thread quite late in the piece – I think it was up to page 14 at the time – and only yesterday I read the very first pages. So please forgive me if I’m rehashing stuff that was already mentioned.
First, is CS the same as Chabad Shlucha (and the same as Chabad Shluchah with an ‘h’ of old)?
Second, what is going on with that CS woman? She has her very own version of emunah, where she either has all the answers or she knows that her people have them, and she therefore feels sorry for those of us (and the vast vast majority of Yidden) who do not believe that the L rebbe was EVER a candidate for Mashiachship. Does she really not realize that the entire basis of her so-called belief is just like a house of cards, but in her case the bottom layer of cards are non-existent.
Not one of her beliefs in that area withstand the scrutiny of any non-Lubavicher – regardless of his opinion of Lubavich itself – who has the slightest understanding of limud Hatorah and real, reliable sources.
And she doesn’t learn much Tosfos because she has other priorities (thank the Good L-rd for that!), but she would if she had more time as her rebbe says she can. The same is true with Zohar!
Is this really what she and others consider Lubavich hashkofah?! Hashem yishmor!
On another related topic, Lubavich has always held that view – and don’t tell me it hasn’t because I daresy I’ve been around them a lot longer than nearly all of you others here – that the rebbe is the only one who can tell them what is right and wrong when it comes to innovations.
How then can they justify the almost-kishuf of opening the igros at random to get answers to their questions? As far as I am aware, there has never been anything like that in history, even by the most fanatical groups. And please don’t tell me stories about chassidim putting kvittlach into seforim written by their Rebbes. (In the past I have had a number of Lubavichers attempt that disingenuous and worthless explanation.) That is not the same thing at all, as they are not deriving any answers to questions from where they place the kvittel.
Yes, I know there’s the Goral Hagra, and other types of goralos, but this is something that was invented after the death of the L rebbe by common garden-type Lubavicher chassidim, not by any tzaddik or gadol Batorah.
Getting back to CS’s weird statements (and again, I apologize if this has already been dealt with): I estimate we have about 3 days before the True Moshiach is revealed and I want to reach as many Jews as possible before the time is up
(“True Moshiach” sounds so xian to me, but I’ll ignore that for the time being.) What on earth is this “3 days” about? You do realise that, like all Lubavich predictions in the past, your prediction fell flat on its face, as those 3 days elapsed over 150 days ago… or do you have some way of worming out of that one?
The secret Geula final ketz (which hasn’t happened yet and has also simultaneously passed) can be found in the Zohar
I try sometimes not to insult too much, but seriously, have you been taking your meds?
what’s unique about Chassidus CHABAD is that it brings G-dliness into human understanding and logic<\em>
Do you really believe everything you were taught in Beis Rivkah and in sem?!
Very likely techias hameisim is in 4 years
Does that mean that we may have to wait a full four years to ask you to answer that prediction?
To the group
Many years ago Rabbi Dovid Hollander told me, “Don’t try to understand a Rosho because you’re not a Rosho.” Sage advice but if you train yourself you can get into the head of a Rosho. Many non isobservant Jews ask how one can believe in Hashem after the Holocaust. The answer is simple. I believe in Hashem but I don’t understand Hashem. The same applies to Chabad. You can’t ask them any questions because they consider Schneerson God and so he can reject what the Torah says because he transcends the Torah.
To the group
Menachem Shmei, Nope and CS disappeared when they realized that no one is buying their garbage. Sechel , however, won’t give up. As I’ve clearly demonstrated Schneerson was a Kofer for rejecting the Gemara which said that there is no Nevuah until Moshiach comes and for rejecting the Gemara which says that only one out of 300000 Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach. These are the simple facts that every real Jew accepts. Sechel is part of a religion started by that dead Kofer so he has a different point of view.
To Sechel
I see that you learned two things from Nope your Rebbe. First, to hurl meaningless accusations a me. Second you refuse to answer my questions. But I don’t forget them. So I’ll repeat, Since Lubavitchers don’t believe in punishment why do you study Pirke Avos? This second question is a new one. Since your dead Kofer shut down Gehinnom why do you clowns say Kaddish for your loved ones? Of course we have the 3rd question, “If you don’t believe in Rambam why do you study him?”
Qwerty is a liar and keeps asking the same questions. Open up the gemara and read!!
I should follow Menachem shmais way, no point in arguing with people who reject gemaras and believe in the new testamentYou know redemption is a state of mind and a frequency so yes only 30000 Jews will be redeemed from galus. Lol this isn’t about coming out galus literally.
Also just because someone said something doesn’t make it true it needs to hold up to _scrutiny_ not just believed by Devine right. I can say trump is mashaich cuz he rode on a white donkey and trimpence was heard across the whole earth. We need to verify not just believe
you are simply not answering .
the first gmara you brought is not talking about j the founder of xtianity.
yehoshua b prachya lived a good few generations earlier.
—the second gmara you brought, mentions only kishuf and meisit umadiach [promoting to serve a’z ]
not any other averot – so other mitsvot j kept.
like the quote of his pupil matew
—which a’z was j guilty of promoting ?
himself
j turned himself into a’z
eerie similarities to a certain false messiah in our times
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that was my posthave not seen any answer from you yet …
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.Not to be mean to chabad I think at the end of the day every society holds weight and value and purpose. Maybe they connect with what the rebbe says. Just like you connect to what gemarah says. There idol worship in both our religions. Anyways tho about the kvitlach and the rebbe’s book with answers you can actually do that with _anything_ with the right “intention” if I make a book with pictures and I make them in a specific manner that they may mean something partianing to life and you come and have the intention to get answers you will actually always get an answer from this book. Even the Torah you can do it with. It’s called tarot cards lol. Same concept
according to the gmara
a] j was busy with kishuf , which might explain the so-called wonders he allegedly performed
and that
b] j was meisit umediach et yisrael
a term which normally is used for causing and promoting avoda zara
.
.gmara does not state which avoda zara
the only avoda zara from those times we know about , is the belief and worship of j himself
so , besides j’s kishuf
and j’s promotion of self worship
according to the gmara
he would not be worthy of any punishment
possibly because he was a shomer torah in all other aspects
as is documented , if we are to believe this pupil of j , called mathew
.
.so-
was j shomer torah ?yes.
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.To yankel berel
You got post 770. I hope that’s not a bad sign. Just Kidding. Leave Sechel alone. He looks like he’s on the verge of a breakdown.
To none2.0
You sound like the Lubavitchers I used to debate on VIN. Every group thinks their Rebbe is Moshiach. Every group thinks he’s a Novi. Every group thinks he’s god. No only Chabad says these things about it’s Rebbe.
Re examination of passionately held beliefs should not be cause for a breakdown
It should be a cause for the heady feeling of freedom and maturity
a feeling of not being enslaved by previous opinions
a feeling of openness and willingness to always learn more , know more , and
grow
—sechel , like the long disappeared menachem , is most probably digesting the new information and re considering his identity
otherwise why would they be so quiet for so long
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.To yankel berel
You’re rational and so you’re assuming that the Lubavitchers are also rational but that’s not so. Sechel and Menachem Shmei and Nope can’t digest what we’re telling them because it runs a foul of their entire existence. Sechel is now playing the stupid attack QWERTY game hoping he can find adherents. For me this thread is not about rehabilitating Chabad. There is no hope for them. My objective is to get the fools on the fence like Yaakov Yosef A to wake up. I know that’s not easy. My son fights with me about Chabad. He refuses to believe how sick they are and I know it’s because he attends a Chabad shul on Shabbos. When I presented clear cut evidence that the Rebbe convinced himself that he’s Moshiach when he was three, he grudgingly accepted it. I have no problem going to a Chabad shul. I know that the Rabbis are probably idolaters but they’re very nice. For me it’s just a place to get a minyan, but most people who deal with them become influenced.
Dear ywn modereaters if I said what qwerty613 said about the rebbe about rav shach or reb chaim kanievsky? Would it be allowed on this forum? I request that the official rabbinical supervisor of ywn should overview the comments written about a tzaddik who was baki in Bavli, yershhalmi, shulchan oruch with the noisei keilim as well an abundance of kabbalah seforim. He never did anything wrong in his life, he got very upset at people in 1960 when they wanted him to take on the leadership and made reb avrohom hayor pick up thousands of pamphlets saying the rebbes moshiach in e”y. Is it really so crazy to say that the rebbe who has brought tens of thousands of people back to yidishkeit (at least to some extent) taught hour long sichas each week explaining rashis and rambams with seeming contradictions and asking valid questions on almost all achronim on rashi, is bechezkas moshiach? It’s not so far-fetched. Do you have a better candidate who helped more for shleimas torah and mitzvas in this past century?
you see , I would not put in such stark language
I would not call them idolators
not because I do not see the rationale for doing so
I perfectly understand the rationale for considering them idolators
and I personally would be inclined to consider them as such
but the gdolei haposkim and gdolei harabanim did not go that far
so since I am not fooling myself as a ma’an de’amar in their presence I defer to their opinion
that does not mean that are not seriously ‘off the rocker’
I suspect that even you do not consider then idolaters with full meaning of the word
since you go there to daven with a minyan
I seem to remember that a clear idolater is not ra’uy to make up a minyan
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.Dear ywn moderators
Please read the above post of tunaisafish well. If anything at all it is THE reason not to censor posts about the L rebbe, about whom (according to tunaisfish) it is perfectly valid to assume he is bechezkas Mashiach. The L rebbe, according to tunaisfisch, clearly knew the entire Torah, in fact, I suspect that he thinks the L rebbe wrote it!
To yankel berel
Kudos for your outstanding post. Of course you’re right that I don’t consider Lubavitchers as literal idolaters. They can’t be officially in that category until our Poskin rule that way. This said, Artscroll states that idolaters are slavishly obsessed with their idols. Does that not describe the Lubavitchers on YWN and VIN. When I cited Cumin who said that the Rebbe runs the world, did any Lubavicher say he’s crazy or we disagree with him? Absolutely not. Instead they defended him. And now that Manis the Kofer has declared that no Jew can be punished no matter what he does Sechel farenfers him. So let’s just say that Chabad is very close to being idolaters and that’s not a good place to be.
To ARSo
Thank you so much for your last post. Last year Menachem Shmei appealed to the moderators to shut me up. The fact that Chabad is obsessed with me means I’m doing my job well. If you’ll note Tunabeigel wrote that Schneerson is the best candidate to be Moshiach. I’ve heard that argument used on two other occasions by other Lubavitchers. That think that becoming Moshiach is like winning an election. That is just like someone will be elected Mayor so too for Moshiach. In fact Moshiach will be the person who meets Rambam’s criteria and so this nonsense of the best candidate for Moshiach is a rejection of Rambam which is further proof that Lubavitchers are Kofrim. I think we are now officially friends again.
To the group
Tunabeigel writes, “If I said about Rav Shach and Rav Chaim Kanievsky what Qwerty613 said about the Rebbe would it be printed?” This is Lubavich logic. There’s nothing that can be said that’s negative about Rav Shach Rav Chaim or any other Godol or Admor. But in the case of Schneerson the fact is that he was a Kofer. Was he a genius? Most definitely but so was Spinoza. Mendy rejected fundamental principles of the Torah and so we must tell it like it is. He was, as my Rav said such a Baal Gaavah that he convinced himself that he’s god.
tunafish,
Yes, it really is so crazy, since the Rebbe, zt”l died on 3 Tamuz 5754 or didn’t you get the memo?
To ARSo
The Rebbe invented Moshiach Hador, Moshe Rabbein u Hador. Interestingly all three had to be Chabad. What a worthless liar.
To ARSo
The Rebbe invented Moshiach Hador, Moshe Rabbeinu Hador and Nassi Hador. Of course, all three had to be Chabad. He was an inveterate liar.
the following is an excerpt from tunasifish
…. [the leader of the habadi’s] got very upset at people in 1960 when they wanted him to take on the leadership and he made reb avrohom hayor pick up thousands of pamphlets saying the rebbes moshiach in e”y …
meaning the leader of habad made his hasid retract claims that the leader is mashiach [claim by tunafish]
why then did the very same leader encourage and publicly validate his own mashiach claim ???
did he consider himself mashiach or not ???
if he did , why did he order the retraction of the pamphlets in the 1960’s ?
if he did not , why all the crazy [pseudo xtian] public mashiach frenzy in the 1980’s and the 1990’s ??
what is tunafish’s REAL opinion ?
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.tunaisfish: Is it really so crazy to say that the rebbe who has brought tens of thousands of people back to yidishkeit (at least to some extent) taught hour long sichas each week explaining rashis and rambams with seeming contradictions and asking valid questions on almost all achronim on rashi, is bechezkas moshiach?
Truthfully, yes, it really is crazy!
Having just done a search I can point out that the only source for someone being chezkas Mashiach, is the Rambam in Hilchos Melachim, and he lays out certain criterie – NONE of which you cite in your post. The Rambam does not even say that Mashiach has to be “baki in Bavli, yershhalmi, shulchan oruch with the noisei keilim as well an abundance of kabbalah seforim” as you assume to be the case with the L rebbe.
It is so very woke, and so very Lubavich, for someone to say, “I think this person is great, therefore I’m allowed to declare that he is chezkas Mashiach.”
Boruch Hashem, the Rambam was not woke, and neither is the entire Torah. Unlike a vast number of the Lubavicher rebbe’s fan-base.
To the group
About ten years ago I heard Rabbi Daniel Mechanic speak. He had recently been in Hollywood and had the chance to meet Larry David, Jason Alexander and the late Kirk Douglas. He tried to be Mikarev them with the following approach, “*Either you’re right or I’m right. If you’re right so I never got to eat shrimp. If I’m right you’re losing out on Olam Habo.” The same argument can be used with Chabad. If they’re right so when Schneersohn comes back to life I’ll accept him. But if we’re right they have no Cheillek in Olam Habo. The fact that they can’t answer the simple questions we ask them is proof that we’re right. As for the contention that Schneersohn was a Torah giant. So we’re Yoshka and Shabbetai Tzvi. Checkmate.
qwerty > *Either you’re right or I’m right. If you’re right so I never got to eat shrimp. If I’m right you’re losing out on Olam Habo.
Pascal wager. Sad that none of the 4 people heard of that.
@Qwerty The same argument can be used with Chabad. If they’re right so when Schneersohn comes back to life I’ll accept him. But if we’re right they have no Cheillek in Olam Habo.
Actually I say the opposite, if the rebbe is not moshiach big deal, we just made a mistake. (As far as the gemaras you claim we regect, we just learn different and at most are mistaken) You guys making fun of the rebbe is called apikorses (see gemara Sanhedrin perek chelek) which has no chelek in olem habaTo GadolHadofi
Chabad has its own spin on the Rebbe’s death. According to some Lubavichers Moshiach can’t come from the dead. Those Lubavichers say he’s still alive. Others hold that zMoshiach can come from the dead and so they say he died. We should ask Sechel if the Chabad Rabbonim issued a Pack on this matter. Probably they’re waiting for the Rebbe to answer them with the Igros.
@ qwerty
even if the leader of habad would miraculously reappear I would not follow him
neither should any believing yid.
there is a whole parasha in the torah addressing this phenomenon specifically
what happens when the navi sheker gives an ot or makes a mofet ?
moshe rabenu our thue and klal yisrael wide true prophet forewarned us
ki menasseh hashem etchem
HKBH is testing us
are we truly following the torah or not
so definitely , no
even if habad’s leader will pretend to duplicate j’s alleged moftim
or pretend to copy shabtai tzvi’s rumored supernatural wonders
we , the collective yidden all over the globe , spanning all our generations , both present and future
will NOT bow down and will not be duped .
==
ani maamin be’emunah sheleima … shezot hatora lo tehei muchlefet .To Sechel
I liked your point and so I’ll ask a follow-up question, “If Moshiach isn’t the Rebbe will you accept him?”
To yankel berel
I was just using a hypothetical argument. Obviously there is no possibility that a lying Kofer like Schneerson could ever be Moshiach.
To the group
Sechel writes that Chabad doesn’t reject Gemaras it just learns them differently. The Gemara says that there’s no Nevuah until Moshiach comes but Chabad disagrees. The Gemara says that one out of 300000 Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach but Chabad disagrees. Rambam says that we won’t know Moshiach ‘s identity until he has fulfilled his mission, but Chabad disagrees. Many years ago I read an article in the Jewish Week by some deformed Rabbi. He said the following, “I’m a Rabbi and Maimonides is a Rabbi. Who says his opinion is more valid than mine?” Congratulations Sechel you now admit that Chabad is a Reform Movement as you reject the Rambam as well as Gemaras whose Pshat have been universally accepted for almost 2000 years. No I have no fear of calling Schneerson what he is a lying Kofer. And my Rabbis agree with me. Checkmate.
@qwerty so if I answer you that gemara, you’ll stop calling the rebbe a kofer and do teahuva? (It was already answered on a different thread)
I have one question: can any Lubavich supporter bring sources that the L rebbe is Mashiach from anything other than what he himself or his supporters said?
As far as I recall, all the ‘proofs’ are ‘proofs’ that he brings based on his own interpretations. What about something other than his own claims to grandeur?
To Sechel
There are two Gemaras. Feel free to answer one or both. But there’s one problem with what you just said i.e. that I should do Tshuvah. I don’t understand what you mean. According to Manis Friedman no Jew can be punished so why do I have to repent?
To ARSo
You nailed it. The Chabad religion is Mendyism. He decided he’s Moshiach. He decided he’s god clothed in human form. He decided he’s the Moshe Rabbeinu Hador and the Nassi Hador He decided he’s a Novi and his sheep accept whatever he says.
To Sechel
Why do you care what I say about Mendy? If he’s Moshiach let him take care of me and if he isn’t you should do Tshuvah and return to Judaism. The fact that you and the other Lubavitchers are so obsessed with me is proof that you know I’m right. If you guys insulted a real Godol I wouldn’t get upset I would just tell you that you’re playing with fire by starting up with Hashem’s close friends. I strongly doubt that the Rebbe and Hashem get along since he became god. Lol
To Sechel
I have a special “Three Weeks” deal for you. Answer my two questions and I’ll stop calling the Rebbe a Kofer. In fact, I’ll even apologize for having done so. The questions are, 1. If you agree with Manis Friedman why do you learn Pirkei Avos? 2. If you reject Rambam why do you make a Siyum on his work every year? Now here’s the special offer. I’ll even give you the answers to the questions. The reason you learn those things is because the Rebbe told you to but you’re not required to accept what those Rabbis said. If you agree with this answer just say I’m right and the Kofer tag goes. Of course you can give whichever answer you want but I may not accept them
Ok the gemara you quoted is Sanhedrin 111a, but on the same amud R Yochanan says that a third of the population will be redeemed which includes all JEWS and in addition even non Jews – see rashi there. There is also a second gemara there that one jew in his zchus the whole city and family will be redeemed. So bottom line saying every jew will be redeemed although it contradicts rava there but it’s perfect with R Yochanan.
We see in Sanhedrin 98b that the amoraaim said there rebbe is moshiach before he built the bais hamikdash. There is a difference between a belief or the rambam which is giving signs . SimpleQwerty, Where does the gemara say there will be no nevuah till moshiach comes? I quoted a rambam in igeres taiman that nevuah will return BEFORE moshiach comes
To Sechel
The Amoraim didn’t say that Rebbe is Moshiach. They said that if Moshiach is from the living it is Rebbi. So you have to resort to distorting the Gemara to try and disprove Rambam. You’ve learned well from the original Christians. Waiting for your response to my post from yesterday.
I accept 100 percent pirkai avos and rambam. Just I agree with Manis that hashem takes into consideration the hardships of the times and therefore doesn’t punish us today for avairos the same way as 2000 yrs ago. I believe this is what he meant, and his videos and cut out and skipped around maybe it came out different.
I say the same thing – if moshiach is from the dead it’s the rebbe. No difference. No one in chabad says moshiach already came.
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