April 21, 2011 2:27 am at 2:27 am #596407
The scene: Shul, the second night of Pesach right before Ma’ariv. The shul is an Ashkenazic shul that davens Nusach Sefard, and hence, says Hallel in shul on the night of Pesach
A fellow in shul was talking to another fellow, asking him what he was going to do, as he davens Nusach Ashkenaz. Was he going to say Hallel with the tzibur? Was he going to leave?
Another fellow*, sitting in the area, was apparently shocked to hear that someone doesn’t recite Hallel in shul on the night of Pesach. He announced “Anyone who doesn’t say Hallel on Pesach night is out of his mind.” The other people in the conversation told him that people who daven Nusach Ashkenaz don’t say Hallel on Pesach night. Nonetheless, he repeated his statement that people who don’t say Hallel on the night of Pesach are out of their minds.
At that point, I (who was standing a few feet away from him) closed my siddur, turned to him and said “then I guess I’m out of my mind since my minhag is not to say Hallel in shul on the night of Pesach.” I then left and chose to daven on the other side of the room.
I can’t understand how someone could say something that is so hateful and hurtful. He basically stated, outright, that tens and hundreds of thousands of frum Jews (if not millions) are out of their minds because they hold a legitimate minhag. It’s not as if people we’re talking about some fringe lunatic group which some bizarre minhagim** — we’re talking about people who daven Nusach Ashkenaz!! But apparently, he decided that we’re all “out of our minds.” And, apparently, he meant it because he repeated it after being told that people who daven Nusach Ashkenaz don’t have that minhag!
So, yes, I guess I’m out of my mind. You can call the men in white coats to come pick me up anytime you want.
* Interestingly enough, it was the same fellow that I ranted about here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/my-voice-will-not-be-heard-any-more
** Maybe he thinks that people who daven Nusach Ashkenaz are a fringe, lunatic group with bizarre minhagim?April 21, 2011 3:57 am at 3:57 am #760813
Addendum: Just so that you’re aware, it takes a *lot* to tick me off enough to directly say something to someone who annoys me. I’m *far* more likely to just sit and stew about something rather than directly confront the person who is annoying me. So, the fact that I responded shows that I was *really* upset about it.
Suffice it to say that it nearly ruined my seder night.
The WolfApril 21, 2011 3:57 am at 3:57 am #760814rosesharonParticipant
Hang in there wolf!April 21, 2011 3:58 am at 3:58 am #760815shlishiMember
why let every meshugana bother you?April 21, 2011 4:05 am at 4:05 am #760816melechalmakloMember
agree with shlishi. if someone wants to say a bizarre statement, fine. let him. its quite obvious that his statements is ridiculous. by getting offended, you are actually validating his comment and empowering him. a chuckle would have been a more suitable reaction….April 21, 2011 4:17 am at 4:17 am #760817yossi z.Member
I think the guy needs to learn the halachos and if he already learned them he should go back over them as it is a fully legitimate shita that many people hold. I happen to daven a nussach which says hallel pesach night but this year I didn’t say it in davening as I was davening in my cousin’s shul where they don’t say it
😀 Zuberman! 😀April 21, 2011 4:19 am at 4:19 am #760818truth be toldMember
If only our religious epiphany would be as directed at ourselves as it is at others. Something to think aboutApril 21, 2011 4:22 am at 4:22 am #760819amichaiParticipant
agree with shlishi. there’s all types. who cares what other pple say! almost ruined your seder nite? shame your kids had to see you upset cause of this guys words.April 21, 2011 4:31 am at 4:31 am #760820MDGParticipant
From your description of this guy, he does not daven to Hashem, but comes to shul to make himself feel good.April 21, 2011 4:44 am at 4:44 am #760821shlishiMember
wolf: another thought that crossed my mind is wouldnt this story be enough for the guy youre talking about to recognize himself in the story and to recognize who you are irl?April 21, 2011 4:46 am at 4:46 am #760822am yisrael chaiParticipant
This is similar to the Gebruchs thread in depicting people who are so self-absorbed, they have no room or regard for others’ minhagim. Only their way is the correct way.
Whatever happened to elu v’elu? Whatever happened to tolerance?
Obviously this guy didn’t do a great job getting rid of his spiritual chametz.April 21, 2011 5:14 am at 5:14 am #760823
wolf: another thought that crossed my mind is wouldnt this story be enough for the guy youre talking about to recognize himself in the story and to recognize who you are irl?
I don’t particularly care. If he does then he does.
The WolfApril 21, 2011 5:19 am at 5:19 am #760824truth be toldMember
I don’t particularly care. If he does then he does.
Lets take it a step further. Would you prefer he sees this? I’m guessing yesApril 21, 2011 5:27 am at 5:27 am #760825
Lets take it a step further. Would you prefer he sees this? I’m guessing yes
I was so disgusted by the whole thing that I really don’t care. Besides, I already admitted to him that I’m out of my mind. I don’t think he’d pay much mind to any rebuke from a person he considers to be crazy.
The WolfApril 21, 2011 7:39 am at 7:39 am #760826smartcookieMember
Wolf- stop listening to every dumb person’s Shtussim. Why are you even bothered by him, when it’s obvious that he’s got problems himself? No decent person knocks others like that. Please!April 21, 2011 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #760827Shticky GuyParticipant
While the guy is obviously the one out of his mind to say such things about people with a minhag different to his own, the truth is that here the OP has also made a slight mistake.
There is no such thing is a minhag not to say hallel on pesach night. Yes, Ashkenaz do not have the minhag to say hallel on Pesach night. But they do not have a minhag not to say it! There’s a big difference. And Gedolei Ashkenaz have paskened that because of this, that if an Ashkenaz person davens in a shul where they say hallel, he should say it and not be poresh from the tzibbur by going out early, because nobody has a minhag NOT to say hallel on Pesach night.April 21, 2011 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #760828walton157Member
Wolf, what you experienced is very upsetting and annoying. But, from what you wrote you already had a run-in with this guy. Obviously, he knows how to push your buttons and probably everyone elses’ also. The real question is: Why are you giving him so much power? You are old enough to be comfortable in your religious “activities”. Enjoy your family and the remainder of the holiday.
If I may suggest, next time this gentleman makes a remark that irks you, ask him what he means? Maybe what he says and thinks are two different things…April 21, 2011 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #760829AinOhdMilvadoParticipant
Sadly, the world is full of selfish, foolish, and often nasty people.
If we let them bother us, we’ll be miserable ALL the time.
With 20/20 hindsight, probably the best thing you might have done would have been to laugh and say … “And I think that people who think that THEIR minhag is the ONLY minhag are out of THEIR minds!”April 21, 2011 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #760830
There is no such thing is a minhag not to say hallel on pesach night. Yes, Ashkenaz do not have the minhag to say hallel on Pesach night. But they do not have a minhag not to say it! There’s a big difference. And Gedolei Ashkenaz have paskened that because of this, that if an Ashkenaz person davens in a shul where they say hallel, he should say it and not be poresh from the tzibbur by going out early, because nobody has a minhag NOT to say hallel on Pesach night.
Fair enough, thank you. I, in fact, said Hallel that night for precisely that reason — not to be separate from the tzibbur.
The WolfApril 21, 2011 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #760831
Wolf, what you experienced is very upsetting and annoying. But, from what you wrote you already had a run-in with this guy. Obviously, he knows how to push your buttons and probably everyone elses’ also.
To be fair, no… I never confronted him before. As I said above, I’m far more likely to just sit there and stew rather than say anything. This is the first time I’ve said anything to him. As a result, I don’t think he could have known that he was “pushing my buttons.” Likewise, I don’t think he would have known that I daven Nusach Ashkenaz and would have been offended.
The WolfApril 21, 2011 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #760832aries2756Participant
It is just so annoying and hurtful to see yidden not being YIDDEN and not behaving the way YIDDEN are supposed to behave. How can moshiach come when there is so much selfishness and cruelty among us? It is so easy to just be accepting and loving of our fellow Jews.April 21, 2011 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #760833Pashuteh YidMember
OMG, how could you all be so naive. Wolf took you all in.
He was referring to the old joke about a new Rabbi who comes into a shul. As he begins his position, the night of Pesach approaches. The Chazan begins to say Hallel. A fight breaks out. Some say we do say Hallel, some say we don’t. The new rabbi asks, what is the minhag of the shul, what did you do last year? Some balabatim yell we always said Hallel. Other scream, Liars, we never said Hallel.
The new Rabbi is totally perplexed how to handle this. After Pesach, he calls up the old Rabbi who had retired to Florida. He tells him, there was a big fight over Hallel on Pesach night. What is the established minhag of the shul? The old Rabbi tells him, that is exactly right, the minhag is to fight over whether to say Hallel.April 21, 2011 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #760834nitpickerParticipant
As an aside, some who daven asheknaz do say hallel.
In the lakewood yeshiva, they say hallel after waiting
a few moments for the non-sayers to leave.
Rav Shneur used to walk out also, and then slip back
in and say a hallel from the back of the shule.April 21, 2011 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #760835HadaLXTPMember
No Jew has a right to call another Jew any sort of names. V’Ahavta L’reiacha Komocha. The Chofetz Chayim says that one of the strongest forms of Loshon Hora is to talk about an entire community.
I Daven Sefard. Occasionally I Daven in a Litvisheh Shul that of course Davens Ashkenaz. I Davened there The first 2 nights of Pesach. The Minhag there is not to say Hallel by night. Being that there are a lot of people that Daven Sefard in this Minyan, they implemented, that after Kadish Basra they wait a couple of minutes for those who want to leave and then start Hallel. About 7 people walked out, the rest stayed including the Rov.April 21, 2011 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #760836ZeesKiteParticipant
Me too. Out of my mind. Back at noon!April 21, 2011 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #760837mexipalParticipant
honestly wolf, why should a stupid comment offend you? alot of people say a lot of stupid things. if we were offended by every one of them our lives would be miserableApril 21, 2011 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #760839rabbiofberlinParticipant
sorry to contradict ‘sthicky guy” on his understanding of hallel pessach night. Please check shulchan aruch orach chaim,siman “tof pei zayin” (487) se’if “arbah” (four). the mechaber paskens that we do say hallen (with a brocho) both nights ( minhag hasfardim,obviously). On that, the remo writes : ” Vechol zeh, ein onu nohagim kein, ki ein onu omrim balailoh be-bais haknesset ha-hallel klal” – translation; ” we (the ashkenazim)do not have that custom ,as we do not say hallel at all in shul that night”.
Clearly, minhag ashkenaz is NOT to say hallel at night. The sefardim and- importantly- minhag Ho-ari is to say hallel (see Be’er heitev). This is why the Hassidim say it.
Whether there is a minhag “lo lifrosh min hatsibbur’ -not to stray from the people’s minyan- , I do not know. That said, the remarks of that very ungracious gentleman was clearly wrong and stupid.April 21, 2011 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #760840Avram in MDParticipant
I’m sorry you have had two bad experiences at shul. I think you did the right thing by moving to a different location to daven. It might be best for your sanity and blood pressure to try and avoid sitting near this person again when davening at this shul.
Just a thought… are you sure this fellow is free from any emotional or mental handicaps? I once was davening at a shul during Yom Kippur (with services in a temporary structure), when a man came in either quite late, or had left his seat for an extended period of time, and screamed at another man, “You are sitting in MY SEAT!!!” and muttered more under his breath. As for me, my breath was taken away at the meanness displayed… on Yom Kippur no less! After glancing at him a few more times and thinking about it, I decided to myself that the man was probably mentally handicapped in some way and wasn’t aware that his behavior was inappropriate. My anger towards him dissipated pretty quickly after that.
I know based on a logical analysis of what he said, he thoughtlessly condemned thousands of Jews, but perhaps he wasn’t thinking his words through or wasn’t thinking logically.April 21, 2011 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #760841tzvideerMember
well Mr Wolf,
i cant agree with him, i dont think you are out of your mind for not saying Hallel.
you will though excuse me for being blunt,
but i think you are out of your mind for letting his stupid foolish comment upset you and make you change your seat.
please get back into your mind….April 22, 2011 12:10 am at 12:10 am #760842JustHoldMember
LO AM HA’ARETZ CHASSID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!April 22, 2011 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #760843Midwest2Participant
Avram in MD – how right you are. When I was in graduate school (many years ago) I was at a sheva brochos when a grandparent of the kallah took my hand and began a long discussion of how awful and anti-Torah college is and how I was endangering myself by going there. I felt quite resentful at what I assumed to be condescension by a “super-frumie.” Later I found out that this person was in the early stages of Alzheimer’s Disease. It’s sometimes hard to tell when a person is impaired. And if this person isn’t impaired neurologically, they’re certainly impaired socially – autistic, perhaps, or with some other problem.April 22, 2011 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #760844bptParticipant
Many times, you state an opinion on a topic (say, politics, or chinuch) where you form your opinion based on the facts and conditions as you see and understand them.
On the same topic, someone else may see the same situation, but apply different facts (or interpreted the same ones in a different light) and arrive at a completely different opinion.
Enjoy the rest of Yom Tov – BPTApril 24, 2011 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #760845ItcheSrulikMember
If you listen to every hat and their idiocies, you’ll be agitated all the time. When you hear something like that, just consider the source.April 24, 2011 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #760846HERROpreaseMember
@ everybody here
you all need to say tikkun klali more oftenApril 24, 2011 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #760847
you all need to say tikkun klali more often
Why do I need to say tikkun klali more often?
The WolfApril 27, 2011 4:01 am at 4:01 am #760848ItcheSrulikMember
It’s supposed to help you acheive simchas hachaim.April 27, 2011 4:14 am at 4:14 am #760849
It’s supposed to help you acheive simchas hachaim.
You mean I’m supposed to be HAPPY that I’m out of my mind for not saying Hallel on the first night of Pesach?
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