August 12, 2011 5:38 am at 5:38 am #598590
I was debating if I should put this out there or not but after repeatedly seeing the same issues crop up again and again ad nauseam I decided I have to speak up just to get myself to calm down.
I was in Walmart in the mountains today and I saw a # of things that just ticked me off.
I noticed that a frum Yid was in line with an ice cream and changed his mind about buying it so instead of putting it back in the ice cream freezer he put it in the fridge by the checkout line where they keep sodas. (Of course he did the Vayifen Koh Vechoi to make sure nobody was looking, but I noticed and Im sure Hashem noticed!)
Then there was the family waiting in line whos 9-10 year old kid was playing with the various gift cards that is on the side of the checkout line. He dropped a few on the floor and just left them there as if thats totally normal.
Then there was the guy who was done loading his car and just left the wagon smack in middle of the way of the lane that people would use to drive as opposed to putting it 20 feet further where they keep the wagons.
Then there was the frum guy who just threw some stuff out of his car window on a Boro Park street.
I see this type of activity from all sectors of the frum community and I ask myself, are these Jews?! Is this how a Yid acts?!
Theres a certain level of selfishness/laziness/aloofness/haughtiness/carelessness displayed by our people that is just way out of line. I dont know whats going on with us but this activity has to stop!
We have to start carrying ourselves with dignity and actually feeling responsible for our actions and holding ourselves to a higher standard.
Wheres the pride in being a representative of the Shechina? We are Bonim Lamokom, Hashems children. We need to act like princes and princesses, not like animals!
I hope that if any of you who read this are the type too do the things I mentioned above you take this to heart and realize, you are a representative of Hashem in this world. As a Yid you have an achrayis to act like a mentsch at all times and certainly in places where there are non Jews who can observe our conduct and see that we are “no better” than them and often a lot worse in some ways when it comes to basic middos.August 12, 2011 6:17 am at 6:17 am #799056MiddlePathParticipant
WIY, I am ashamed that Jews would act this way. Thank you for bringing it up. I think it is important for us, especially in public, to be meticulous about proper behavior and manners. People are always watching. And even if people AREN’T watching, it should be no different.August 12, 2011 8:54 am at 8:54 am #799057ToiParticipant
couldnt agree more. and for the record the goyim notice too. not that thats needed as a reason.August 12, 2011 10:30 am at 10:30 am #799058welldressed007Participant
This is not about frum people but the people themselves. We do not expect frum people to kill others but sometimes they do.August 12, 2011 10:37 am at 10:37 am #799059ImaofthreeParticipant
I have also noticed the behavior of frum Yidden at the Monticello Walmart. I think they are on vacation mode. All we can do is work on ourselves, and make sure to do a kiddush Hashem especially in public. If you are on line and have a full shopping cart, let a person who has just a few items go ahead of you. Be polite, walk on the side of the street and not the middle, just because you are in the country doesn’t mean there are no cars that need to go by.
By the way, you can alert the cashier that someone put icecream in the fridge and that there are cards all over the floor. Or pick them up yourself.August 12, 2011 10:41 am at 10:41 am #799060Shticky GuyParticipant
This bothers me to no end also. Its bad enough when it happens in a frum neighbourhood. But out in a place where this stuff is never seen then we come and ‘invade’ and behave as if we own the place… I cant take it. Happens unfortunately in too many places all over the world. Then those who wont give out apartments to jews are accused of being anti semitic!
Wake up guys!August 12, 2011 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #799062
In every group of people you are guaranteed to find some rotten apples. yes there are people that will do things that tick you off, and there are people who are inconsiderate of others all the time but think about all the times that Jews stretch themselves out to help others. What about all the people who went out of their way and stayed up for 2 nights straight looking for Leiby?August 12, 2011 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #799063OfcourseMember
Im not sure youre furthering your cause by posting all of these examples. Everyone who reads this who is the type to have done any of those things, will just think everyone is like me, whats the problem? and will continue doing what theyre doing, thinking they have lots of company among us (unfortunately).August 12, 2011 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #799064mikehall12382Member
I beleive Rabbi Hillel said it best…”What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation of this–go and study it!”…..August 12, 2011 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #799065oomisParticipant
Nothing to add to this. You are 1000% correct. People just do not give a hoot.August 12, 2011 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #799066
Here, here! I second that!August 12, 2011 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #799067
just for the record I think this is unheard of in OOT circlesAugust 12, 2011 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #799068haifagirlParticipant
Here, here! I second that!
Hear, hear! So do I.August 12, 2011 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #799069PeerimsameachParticipant
I always had that in the back if my mind, but never got around to saying it like you did! Good job! And for some reason I see it MUCH less in out of town communities .the parents tell their kids go put it back on the shelf! Also from people who are full time learners they and their children don’t act like that!I wonder if anyone can pinpoint what it is. And say it better. Like the people I see acting like this, are people who think everything is coming to them. And they are to cought up in themselves an what they are doing to care about anyone else.August 12, 2011 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #799070
WIY: Here’s a thought- instead of being Motzi Shem Ra here, you should go over to the offending party and point out what they’re doing is wrong.
;August 12, 2011 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #799071
I don’t think WIY is being motzei shem rah in the least. He is pointing out a flaw in thinking and acting. It is a tikun Olam that has to be taken very seriously.August 12, 2011 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #799072
anyways motzei shem ra is if it’s false
also the op isn’t naming any namesAugust 12, 2011 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #799073
coffee- you are right about this not happening so often in OOT communities.August 12, 2011 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #799074haifagirlParticipant
Recently I was at a museum and saw a woman climb over the rope to put her toddler son in an exhibit so she could take his picture. I told her it was a chillul Hashem. She looked at me as if I were from Mars.
You should know, it was Chol Hamoed, the museums are free and crowded, and most of the people there are not frum. That lady was.August 12, 2011 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #799075
I guess because in OOT societies we are more conscientious of the goyim, whereas in Brooklyn or Queens your whole block is frum so you have very little contact with the goyimAugust 12, 2011 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #799076gavra_at_workParticipant
(not related or meant evil toward Chassidim)
The species of Chassidah is well known for helping its own kind. None the less, it is not Kosher.August 12, 2011 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #799077EzratHashemMember
Obviously there needs to be some formal training in derech eretz for adults, esp to sensitize how it appears to the public. Specific examples should be used like the ones the poster mentioned. How can this be done?August 12, 2011 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #799078
I am not pointing fingers at any particular group and community because unfortunately I have seen that the people who act this way are from all spectrums of orthodoxy. We need to feel responsible for how we act in public. Bottom line is we represent Judaism whenever out on the street. Its a big responsibility but we need to be cognizant of that fact.
Yes we are wonderful and we searched for Leiby, and when it comes to displaying Rachmanus Klal Yisroel is unmatched. However it has nothing to do with my point. Im talking about basic behavior in public that people just do what they want as if nobody else exists.August 12, 2011 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #799079
So perhaps Rechilus is more accurate. I fail to see the “tikun olam” unless you went over to the perpetrator and told them what was wrong and how to fix it.
;August 12, 2011 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #799080
Most people are not open to being told that they did something wrong and I can’t go over to every person and “straighten them out.” In the case of the gift cards I picked them up. I have no problem picking up after someone else but I wish people felt the responsibility on their own.August 12, 2011 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #799081
Yes we are wonderful and we searched for Leiby, and when it comes to displaying Rachmanus Klal Yisroel is unmatched. However it has nothing to do with my point. Im talking about basic behavior in public that people just do what they want as if nobody else exists.
I just meant to point out that no group of people are good at doing everything and there are always sour apples in any group! Its just how it is. so you can focus on the many times that Jews are inconsiderate or u can choose to look at the good times.August 12, 2011 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #799082ObaminatorMember
The species of Chassidah is well known for helping all Jewish kind. It is very Kosher.August 12, 2011 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #799083kakoParticipant
Call me old-fashioned, but derech hertez / good manners is taught at home and I think we are not doing a good job at that.August 12, 2011 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #799085gavra_at_workParticipant
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Perek Yud Aleph. See Rashi.August 12, 2011 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #799086
Im not talking about isolated incidents. Its a lot of people doing a lot of inconsiderate things and instead of putting our heads in the sand as we have done with many issues, I think we need to do something about our middos. Let’s get this straight, you walk through the streets of certain Jewish communities and the streets are filthy there’s so much litter all over the place. Why are we so busy with our lives that we don’t have the time to act like humans?
Being Jewish means being a light unto the nations. Being a light unto the nations means always being a light. Not just being a light in some ways and not in others. Middos is basic to being a Jew. If you don’t have good middos you haven’t learned the aleph Beis.
Hillel said to the convert “what is hateful to you do not do unto others unto others, this is the WHOLE TORAH everything else is a peirush go and learn it.” The basics of Judaism is acting with good middos and being a mentsch.August 12, 2011 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #799087
I am raising awareness. I do what I can and most importantly I don’t act like an an animal in public.
I often clean up after others, but others siddurim away in Shul…. frankly it just hurts because I care. When was the last time you cleaned up a Shul and put away everyones siddurim? I do it often. For free.August 12, 2011 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #799088
I dont think you should say ur just letting it go and not going to be bothered by it and speak up. but remember as a whole we are a group of good people who make mistakes. i feel like there is a lot of “jews” bashing here lately.August 12, 2011 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #799089
Being Jewish means being a light unto the nations. Being a light unto the nations means always being a light. Not just being a light in some ways and not in others. Middos is basic to being a Jew. If you don’t have good middos you haven’t learned the aleph Beis. Hillel said to the convert “what is hateful to you do not do unto others unto others, this is the WHOLE TORAH everything else is a peirush go and learn it.” The basics of Judaism is acting with good middos and being a mentsch.August 12, 2011 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #799090YW Moderator-80Member
yes there is a lot of Jew bashing in the Jewish world in general, something which is close to non-existent in other cultures. we have become a nation with an inferiority complex
generally the less religious the more Jew bashing.
but dont mistake wiy. he certainly meant that this behavior is found among all people, only that among our Holy nation it is a much more severe lack of Derech Eretz because we are princes not peasants. this, i assume is what particularly bothers him and he posted here simply because he is frustrated in his inability to change it.August 12, 2011 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #799091
Thanks for getting it 🙂
Now Mayan Dvash understands why its impossible to go over to people. The second someone points out a flaw that we have even for constructive reasons he gets accused of Jew bashing. Im not a Jew basher and I love my fellow Jew. I care but I feel helpless. I can’t fix everything on my own.August 12, 2011 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #799092
MD, Try this, there are more people reading this thread than were actually standing and doing whatever he saw at the moment and needing correcting at that moment. Therefore, tikun loam. Now many more people are aware NOT to act in that manner.August 12, 2011 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #799094inspiredteenMember
I live out of town and I have to say that when I am in an “in-town” community, the things mentioned above drive me crazy. When in a restaurant out of town and I take my tray and put my stuff in the garbage, people look at me like I feel off the earth!!! I think its a lack of basic mentchlichkiet which I think is just Kavod Habriyos – doesn’t matter if you know the cleaning person in the pizza store or Walmart or not, and it also doesn’t matter what color he/she is – he/she is a person and there is no reason he should have to clean up after your laziness!August 12, 2011 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #799095
Kol Hakavod to you for being a mentsch. I also clean up after myself and get weird looks and im from intown lol.
Rabbi Wallerstein recently spoke about the Inyan of gratitude in the Shiur “You better tip your waiter” great Shiur so to the point.August 12, 2011 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #799096
???? ???August 12, 2011 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #799097zahavasdadParticipant
You dont have to go Monticello, just go to 13th Ave in Borough ParkAugust 12, 2011 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #799098ObaminatorMember
Or to Five Towns, Atlanta, Milwaukee, etc. I’ve seen it all.August 12, 2011 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #799099PeerimsameachParticipant
This thread makes me sad. I hate to have to focus on chestoinois. So instead of talking about where it apears more Nd in which circles, everyone just try To take this to heart nd if Ur someone who does that stop it! Nd enforce it with Ur children.:) Nd u never know who will set what u did it can make the biggest kiddush Hashem, most non Jews when they take something off the shelves they don’t go to put it bck, but we are a nation raised above everyone else. Verrumantanu mekol haleshoins. A non Jew can see u do that Nd say wow Jews are amazing! Also for a Jew to see they might b inspired to act in the same way. We can take this thread to a whole new level.!!!:)August 12, 2011 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #799100kol daveedMember
I understand and recognize this issue and yes, it is certainly sad when members of Klal Yisrael act in such a way as to bring shame to themselves, the Klal, and HaKadosh Baruch Hu. That being said, we need to recognize that the only individual we can control is ourselves. Moreover, the most effective way we can change others is to first change ourselves and serve as an inspiration for others. I believe it’s said by the saintly Chofetz Chaim ZTL that as a young man he wanted to change the world, then resigned himself to only changing Poland, then Radin, and finally only himself. Yet, in perfecting himself, he revolutionized Radin, Poland, and the world.
Lastly, I think the following explanation from the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch (copied from http://torah.org/learning/halacha/classes/class79.html) is especially relevant:
“One should regard everyone else as greater than himself…If the other person is on a lower level, both with regard to wisdom and financial standing, one should consider him more righteous. Since, his is less learned, should he commit a sin, it is considered to be an inadvertent and involuntary act. However, when one commits a sin oneself, it is considered to be a willful violation.” That being the case, when we Chas v’Shalom see one of our own fall, we need to give them the benefit of the doubt and think maybe on their madrega, this action simply wasn’t one of bechira (for more on this refer to Michtav M’Eliyahu – R’ Dessler).August 12, 2011 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #799101msseekerMember
“I guess because in OOT societies we are more conscientious of the goyim, whereas in Brooklyn or Queens your whole block is frum so you have very little contact with the goyim”
I think it’s because in OOT societies we live among more normal goyim, whereas in Brooklyn or Queens we live among meshu-goyim, so they think all goyim are like that. We need to educate them that the rural goyim act more normal ????”? than ?????? the city Jews.August 12, 2011 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #799102YW Moderator-80Member
the most effective way we can change others is to first change ourselves and serve as an inspiration for others.
but you know what
when i see something like this it makes me be just a bit more careful in my own behavior
and who knows who else it will change, a lot or even just a touch, now or maybe someday in the future.August 12, 2011 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #799103kylbdnrMember
Don’t make us sound so mean…
I was at the beach yesterday and I parked my car near Toys R Us without knowing that I can’t park there… There were a few Jewish men who were there and after a few minutes they came to me and asked me if I parked my car near Toys R Us because they heard that someone tows them away… These boys said they come to that beach every day just to tell the Jewish people there about the guys who tow the cars…I was very impressed. (BTW b4 anyone starts discussing the beach, I’ll just say it’s not really a beach- its just a place to stand there. Ppl don’t swim there so these boys weren’t doing anything wrong…)August 12, 2011 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #799104
100% I find that the only way I was able to grow was because certain flaws were pointed out to me by relatives or friends or because of things I saw written in sefarim articles or things I heard in shiurim.August 12, 2011 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #799105kol daveedMember
Mod 80 – There’s a story I read of a BT who years before returning to Yiddishkeit witnessed a few Torah Jews walking together on Shabbos. He how happy, fulfilled, and at peace they were. That small insight into what a frum life should be was enough inspiration for this man to change his own life and come back.
Our individual actions are of the utmost importance because we don’t know who is watching and the repercussions both positive and negative are without limit. When it comes to ourselves, we need to be honest and harsh judges. Why am I acting/speaking/thinking the way that I am and is it proper? When it comes to our brothers and sisters, we need to give them the benefit of the doubt and lead by example.August 12, 2011 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #799106StamperMember
msseeker: A goy is a goy.August 12, 2011 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #799107msseekerMember
True, Stamper, but the OOT “bessere” goyim are VERY different from the inner-city scum.
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