May 13, 2011 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #596874
Isn’t tznius more than just covering your elbows, but also a general manner of behavior and dress, not to draw attention?
I’m just wondering (in a curious, not accusatory way) what are the justifications of wearing makeup in public, especially if one is not married or on a date?May 13, 2011 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #768135
yid although your post was specifically directed at women
1. you are certainly correct about tznius in your first paragraph. this is largely ignored today sadly.
2.i believe the problem with wearing makeup in public is adaraba, it is a question with married women. unmarried women are encouraged to make themselves attractive in public to some extent.May 13, 2011 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #768136
Thanks Mod 80,
You remind me of a partial answer to my own question; in Taanis it discusses how a na’ara in aveilus R”L may be able to wash with cold water and wear her makeup.
Unclear how society worked back then though in terms of making shidduchim etc.
But the Mechaber discusses how grave it is for man to smell a woman’s perfume… so I just wonder if the gemara means that she should be presentable, not necessarily actively enhancing her appearance.May 13, 2011 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #768137bptParticipant
Yes. As long as its not red. (unless you call it something else, like mootchie goochie (gucci?). Then, anything goes!May 13, 2011 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #768138
yid.period, you’re correct. An unmarried woman should only wear makeup while she is involved in shidduchim, and a married woman while shes at home.May 13, 2011 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #768139
R Avrohom Blumenkranz z”l used to say that women should be attractive & not attracting.
As you may know, he also approved the application of powdered makeup if it was brushed/loosened before Shabbos/Yom tov. The idea is to apply a natural look & not a loud, “look at me” look.May 13, 2011 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #768140
ahh but to defend my post partially, yid asked about wearing makeup in public and asked it daafka if unmarried women could wear it in public, ergo implying that married women could wear makeup in public.May 13, 2011 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #768141
I accepted your correction to my op; I didn’t write it clearly enough.May 13, 2011 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #768142
I disagree with the premise.
Tznius does not mean that a woman is supposed to conduct herself in a way that is unattractive. It does not mean that a woman is not supposed to try to make herself look nice.
I generally like the quote above from Rabbi Blumenkranz, which I take to mean that a woman should look attractive, just not in a way that attracts extra attention. (like flashy clothes, etc.)
Wearing makeup is part of being a woman, and feeling like a woman. I am surprised when people object to young girls wearing makeup. Do they object to young girls brushing their hair?May 13, 2011 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #768143
Tznius does not mean that a woman is supposed to conduct herself in a way that is unattractive
correct. no one has said a woman should make herself unattractive. what what said is that certain women should not make themselves attractive, ie married women in public.
there is a world of difference between not setting out to make oneself attractive, and setting out to make oneself unattractive.May 13, 2011 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #768144
this will surely be a painful threadMay 13, 2011 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #768145
No, there isn’t a difference. Why should there be?May 13, 2011 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #768146
The question above sounds as if there is only a black & white answer. However, the middle ground is obviously the amount & color of makeup being applied. Therefore, a blanket statement such as the one above that a married woman should not wear makeup out of the house period, is unreasonable.May 13, 2011 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #768147
youre rightMay 13, 2011 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #768148
As mod 80 said, nobody said women should be unattractive, only minimize the amount of attention they are drawing.
I’m just curious why you take it so for granted that wearing makeup is “part of being a woman, and feeling like a woman” ? This is in my opinion a societal phenomenon, not an instinctive one. It’s therefore important to evaluate how it manifests itself in the frum community.
Brushing one’s hair is making someone look presentable, which we all agree is expected of a yid… It does not draw or not draw any more attention IMHO.
I know if i said this is probably a self esteem issue that makes makeup such a necessity for women (and therefore should be avoided by young insecure girls) I’d be reprimanded by the women… so I won’t.May 13, 2011 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #768149
“Brushing one’s hair is making someone look presentable”
(What follows is not directed towards the person who wrote this line, am just using it)
Presentable is a very subjective term. What is presentable to me, might be unkempt to you. Some people may need half the makeup in Macys, just to reach the level of presentable, while others are presentable as soon as they roll out of bed in the morning. Making blanket statements about how much, how often, where etc.. shouldn’t be made.May 13, 2011 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #768150bbubbeeParticipant
This is a very interesting topic. There is make up worn that is complimentary for the woman and there is MAKE UP that is worn to call attention to oneself.
In the type of buisness that I work in, I feel it necessary to wear a little bit of make up so that when I meet people that are not Frum, they will not think that all Frum Women look frumpy. To me it is a Kiddush Hashem to wear a little bit, not like I was going to a Chasuna. But I also agree that to a certain degree, some women wear too much make up on a daily basis.
The fine line is wearing enough to be attractive for your husband, or potential shidduch, and not attractive to other men.May 13, 2011 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #768151
Ok, so what I am hearing is that women should not be attractive to her husband if they leave the house.
If you feel makeup is not tznius then do not wear. There are people that disagree with the premise and would not dare walk out of the house with it.
My opinion is wear whatever color you like, how much you like to wear as long as your husband likes it!!
If you feel it will attract other men that means other wives do not look attractive because they do not wear makeup and hence they will look. if all women look attractive to their husband’s in and out of the house, we would all be better off.May 13, 2011 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #768152
“Some people may need half the makeup in Macys, just to reach the level of presentable”
That is completely fallacious. Anyone who talked that into themselves, is just looking for an excuse.May 13, 2011 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #768153
“My opinion is wear whatever color you like, how much you like to wear as long as your husband likes it!!”
Exactly — in the house. That’s where your husband can enjoy it. Outside, other husband’s, Jew and gentile, will — and shouldn’t.May 13, 2011 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #768154smartcookieMember
If you’re wearing that much makeup, that it turns people’s eyes in your direction, then yes, it’s a problem.(And you probably look like a clown too.)May 13, 2011 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #768155
In the Gemora, Shabbat 64b, R’ Akiva allows a women to apply makeup even while she is a niddah!! This is a time most things are uisser, but we see makeup is mutter because of Shalom Bayis! The makeup is not for the women to feel attractive. We see from this gemorah that women wear it to make their husbands attracted to them.
One the the Takakna of Ezra was for salesmen to travel to every community to perfume or other things.
This is a VERY sensitive issue that one should not mess with! If a women wears makeup like a clown it is none of your business if her husband wants her to wear it! This is a shalom bayis issue and none of our opinions matter, but the husband and wife.May 13, 2011 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #768156
While I concur with anon1m0us that we should not concern ourselves with what a husband likes, I write separately, to stress 2 things.
First, I do think that the woman’s feeling about herself is just as important.
Second, I am disturbed a bit by what sounds like saying that a woman should decide how to dress based on her husband’s likes.May 13, 2011 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #768157
i don’t think presentable is as subjective a term as you are making it out to be. Presentable is not the same as attractive.
The fact is some people are more attractive than others… it’s just how Hashem made us.
doesn’t matter if someone’s wife is the prettiest woman in town, everything gets boring after long enough, and the new is exciting. Also, you are assuming just because someone puts on makeup they look equally attractive to everyone else. Having everyone dress up isn’t going to solve anybody’s problems.May 13, 2011 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #768158SherlockMember
anon1m0us: The Gemorah in Shabbos 62b says that a reason for the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash was women used excessive cosmetics, and that a women should care about her appearance for the purposes of not being repulsive to her husband.May 13, 2011 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #768159
yid.period- The point is, DON’T look at other women!!! What you are suggesting is that men will always be looking at other women! If that is the case, the problem is the man, not the woman.May 13, 2011 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #768160
“Second, I am disturbed a bit by what sounds like saying that a woman should decide how to dress based on her husband’s likes.”
The Torah tells us to dress based upon our husband’s likes (inside the home; and b’tznua outside.)May 13, 2011 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #768161
The Torah tells us
What specifically are you referencing?May 13, 2011 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #768162
I don’t think makeup is a problem, if worn in moderation, on a live person.
It’s a big problem, though, in a newspaper photo. 😉May 13, 2011 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #768163
of course, in an ideal society men would not look at women. But lo nitnu hatorah limalachim. The world in its current state is not the ideal.
but there is another issue here, specifically addressing the women, regardless of any men around. One must still be tnius in the privacy of their own home. If “not being provocative” is an attitude, regardless of anything that may result ie men looking, whether men are looking or not is irrelevant.
the question is where “the feelings of the woman” are coming from and whether they are justification, in terms of halacha.
clever haha. It’s interesting to see people’s opinions on the contrasting issues. Pacman is consistently for side of modesty when in doubt… I want the kindelach in here (teenage girl demographic) to see what they thinkMay 13, 2011 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #768164
good shabbos to all. speak to you soonMay 13, 2011 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #768165
Thanks, 80, it happens sometimes 😉May 13, 2011 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #768166adorableParticipant
this is like asking if a skirt is tznius. of course it is just make sure that one is ok…. everything is ok just in moderation. heavy makeup? NO but nice refined makeup that enhances your natural beauty? why notMay 14, 2011 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #768167goldenkintMember
Tznius cannot be judged outside of the society’s norms and without relating to the individual wearing it. heavy make up is not tzanua if its eyecatching but certainly what is considered heavy makeup is relative from place to place. you can also have this discussion regarding inappropriate wigs and clothes. the bottom line is to follow your rav and try to go with the spirit as well as the letter of the law and recognise that the standards will differ from community to community and not try to impose your ideas on everyone.
On another note. i know of two girls who were reprimanded for wearing makeup in high school . The irony was that neither one was, they just were naturally blessed and looked really beautiful. the principal could not believe that it was natural. so sometimes all this talk may be a case of sour grapes. one girl was so pretty that short of wearing a burka to cover her from head to toe she was noticeable, and in nondescript clothes without makeup. people sometimes forget that Hashem created women and many times they are very beautiful because that’s how Hashem made them. It’s not an aveira to look good.tzinius is also how you comport yourself etc.May 15, 2011 1:50 am at 1:50 am #768168
“That is completely fallacious.”
I prefer the term hyperbole.May 15, 2011 2:04 am at 2:04 am #768169
Isn’t it a question of how one uses or applies it? Its like asking is applesauce tznius?May 15, 2011 2:21 am at 2:21 am #768170oomisParticipant
As the Torah makes a point of telling us of the beauty of the Emahos, clearly making oneself beautiful is not the issue as not all of us are blessed with the bone structure of the Emahos. Making oneself beautiful in such a way as to be prutzahdig, however, is not consistent with the tznius with which our emahos conducted themselves, and that is the sole issue IMO.May 15, 2011 2:31 am at 2:31 am #768171s2021Member
Makeup is very hard to know the line between tznius and not because its very individual, theres no blanket rules like there is with clothes ( elbows, knees, fit, color..) One eyeshadow can make one girl look nice while it can make another girl look very atracting. You cant know till its experimented with and once it starts being applied its quite hard to stop.. However I think its extremely important for girls to have their makeup (obviously in proper amounts.) I strongly do not agree with high schools who dont allow a trace of makeup to be seen on a girls face. I think its cruel and unusuall and bad for the self esteem. If girls start learning how to apply when their in shidduchim/married there is an excellent chance they will be putting on too much…May 15, 2011 3:28 am at 3:28 am #768172takish mamishMember
I think their is absolutely nothing not tznius about makeup. We are allowed to look pretty-aren’t we G-d’s princesses? Besides, most ppl wake up and can either look tired or washed out- it’s a total savior! As long as u see your face in front of the mirror- not a cake lol, putting on makeup is as crucial as puttin on an oufit that isn’t wrinkled and looking 10 years old!! But that doesn’t mean you should put on heavy eyeliner/eyeshadow or even better, cat eyes. All in all, makeup makes most girls feel pretty. What can be so bad about that. I think its kidaiy every girl learns how to do it properly.May 15, 2011 3:57 am at 3:57 am #768173ShrekMember
personally, without makeup, I look kind of like a green ogre.May 15, 2011 4:07 am at 4:07 am #768174popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I agree with manohmanMay 15, 2011 4:47 am at 4:47 am #768175
I agree with Shrek.May 15, 2011 4:49 am at 4:49 am #768176
Isn’t it a question of how one uses or applies it? Its like asking is applesauce tznius?
I generally apply apple sauce in moderation. It helps me moderate tzniusly.May 15, 2011 6:10 am at 6:10 am #768177mischiefmakerMember
I heard from someone that the girls in the times of the gemara wore make-up and I think it was encouraged so if they could, we can. There’s a difference between attractING and attractIVE. Some might look like they’re dressed for their wedding but there’s nothing wrong with looking super-good if it doesn’t scream out (most girls don’t). It’s the natural thing for a girl to want to look pretty. There is NOTHING wrong with H.S. girls wearing make-up to a normal degree. As for married women, I can’t speak because I’m not married.
Everyone complains about the levels of tznius nowadays and the worst is usually in H.S. but I’m there and IMHO, girls are burnt out of these speeches. Teach more about middos and sincerity in yiddishkeit and hopefully tznius will seep in too.May 15, 2011 6:26 am at 6:26 am #768178hanibParticipant
my understanding is that there are two approaches to make-up and both have backings by mainstream frumkeit (at least in Eretz Yisrael, among charedim).
1) no make-up in public at all, even if possible, not to wear at one’s own chasunah.
2) wearing make-up is a mitzvah; it’s a mitzvah to look nice and attractive in a kavodick way – can look temimsdik with the right amount and right kind of make-up.
there are also some people who say yes to make-up, but no to eyeliner, quoting a passuk, i think in a navi.
actually both 1 and 2 back themselves up with quotes from pesukkim, but i don’t remember what they are. 🙂May 15, 2011 11:43 am at 11:43 am #768179
I generally apply apple sauce in moderation. It helps me moderate tzniusly.
It works; we can’t even tell if you’re a man or a lady.May 15, 2011 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #768180ShrekMember
I get the feeling sometimes that there are CR posters who would be happy to see frum women start wearing burquas, hijabs, the whole Moslem getup.
and then there would still be discussions like:
are the burquas black enough?
maybe to be really tznius women should wear multiple burquas at one time?
is it tznius for a woman to wear makeup under her burqua?
is it tznius for a woman to carry a brightly colored pocketbook while wearing a burqua?
Come on, already.
I think it’s time for men to focus on their OWN religious issues. Make a big fuss about men who come late to minyan or talk during davening. Why don’t we see posters about that?
I don’t understand why it’s appropriate for men to be addressing female tznius issues, issuing proclamations, putting up posters, etc. Men are totally finished perfecting themselves? Only the women are left to fix?May 15, 2011 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #768181shlishiMember
Shrek: Do you also object to those men who wrote halacha seforim discussing the issue (i.e. S”A, etc.)? If something is lacking in one area, it doesn’t justify breaching another.May 15, 2011 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #768182May 15, 2011 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #768183
Just for the record, as the OP, I wasn’t attacking women for wearing makeup, and I certainly don’t advocate burkhas (SHREK). I’m actually quite “lefty” (at least relative to most other posters here).
I was asking an innocent question regarding a societal phenomenon I had difficulty justifying, so I opened up a thread for other people’s input. I certainly didn’t mean to offend anybody and I apologize if to anybody who took it that way.
But seriously, I was just trying to include all the females in the picture and get their take on things. (hehe)
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