Many attempts were made for the Kallah. How would you proceed?

Home Forums Shidduchim Many attempts were made for the Kallah. How would you proceed?

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  • #597539

    Ofcourse
    Member

    B”H I recently made a Shidduch. I am one of those Shadchanim who spends an enormous amount of time suggesting Shidduchim, and now and then Im successful, obviously.

    While I dont expect any compensation at all for time expended making dates, I do expect monetary compensation when a Shidduch is made. Even though I dont mention a figure, I expect the going rate. Frum people are aware that its in the Gemarah that Shadchanus must be paid, just as paying doctors and lawyers, for completed Shidduchim.

    I recently made a Shidduch with a BT and they gave me a K’aroh for Pesach that I believe costed them about a hundred dollars and I was thrilled with it. I know theres limited funds there. The most recent Shidduch involves successful professionals, on both sides, who are frum, and should be aware of paying a Shadchan.

    The wedding was this week. Normally invitations are sent a month prior to the date. When I hadnt received an invitation at that point, I emailed the Kallahs mother and she answered that she sent an invitation with a check.

    Now that the wedding passed, with no invitation ever received, I emailed the mother saying that Id like some pictures and an invitation to put aside as remembrances of Shidduchim I’ve made. I got a one sentenece answer. “Ill have my kids print some”.

    In addition to this, neither the Chassan or Kallah ever called me since the engagement.

    This is pretty hurtful. Many attempts were made for the Kallah, which the mother is aware of.

    How would you proceed?

    #791111

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Leave it be. Or else you will look like a shnorror or someone who is out for money.

    #791112

    I wouldn’t make a big deal out of it. Sometimes people get burned in their dealings in life. The Chosson and Kallah should have included you in their life, especially since you were such a big part of it. However, if they didn’t want to include you (as seems the case) then my advice is not to bring up the matter again. You have not lost anything monetarily, only time and effort. All I can say is learn whatever you want from this experience and move on.

    #791113

    bpt
    Participant

    I would notify the couple. Its their shidduch you did, and if they are happy with the result, they should pay you. As is the case in many marraiges, they think mom and dad have taken care of everything, but indeed may have ignored one or two (vital) responsibilites. As far as the couple not calling you since engagement, chalk that up to today’s youth. But point it out to them, so they can learn from the mistake.

    The parents are rats, but that’s a different story

    #791114

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    It sounds like you didn’t make it clear up front that you expected to get paid, but rather relied upon the parties “knowing” that it is halachially required and/or socially acceptable to pay.

    In the future, you must make it clear up front to the parties involved, even if you feel that they should already know. Make it clear what you expect as for what your expected fee is, under what conditions you expect it to apply (first date, third date, engagement, marriage, whatever) and when the payment is due. If you can get it writing, all the better. If not, at least give your future clients a written (even email works for this) description of your fee.

    The Wolf

    #791115

    A Heimishe Mom
    Participant

    Try the chosson’s parents?

    I agree with contacting the couple. After all, it is their life that will be adversely affected due to the lack of shadchanus.

    And to Jewish and Working: Shadchanus doesn’t quite work that way. They HAVE to pay up!

    #791116

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    As far as I know, they owe you the going rate for shadchanus al pi din.

    I don’t know how you want to proceed, but the option of a din Torah is available to you. Ask a rov proficient in Choshen Mishpat.

    It’s then your personal decision whether or not you wish to proceed. Obviously, you should first communicate openly with the parents.

    I think speaking to the kids is, at best, a last resort. It could really lead to sholom bayis problems. (Although not paying the shadchan can too.)

    #791117

    hanib
    Participant

    mention it in a nice way to one of their ravs – kind of like asking advice how you should proceed, and hopefully they’ll do the dirty work.

    wolf – sounds like these people should know. from my understanding, it’s a pretty serious thing to not pay the shadchan anything.

    #791118

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    wolf – sounds like these people should know. from my understanding, it’s a pretty serious thing to not pay the shadchan anything.

    I agree that they should know. Nonetheless, the OP should spell everything out in the future. Many misunderstandings are avoided later on if both parties are explicit at the start as to what is expected.

    The Wolf

    #791119

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Wolf,

    When a plumber comes to your house to fix your leaky sink, I know he can’t know what the problem is before he looks at it, but does he tell you his rate structure first? As long as he charges fairly, he doesn’t have to. Neither does a shadchan, unless she plans on charging more than the going rate. It’s also not a good idea to, because it makes her come across as greedy (I know it’s not logical, but that’s human nature).

    #791120

    on the ball
    Participant

    Make every effort to be compensated as is your right. But if after doing so you fail, please do not bear a grudge against the parents or couple and try and find it in your heart to be Mochel the hurt they have caused. You would not want anything to befall them on your account.

    #791121

    Ofcourse
    Member

    WM It sounds like you didn’t make it clear up front that you expected to get paid, but rather relied upon the parties “knowing” that it is halachially required and/or socially acceptable to pay.

    Absolutely not! I mentioned while the Shidduch was ongoing, that when Shidduchim are made, I expect the going rate.

    #791122

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    DY,

    You’d be surprised… I *do* ask professionals how much they charge before they start work — including plumbers.

    It’s also not a good idea to, because it makes her come across as greedy (I no it’s not logical, but that’s human nature).

    On the contrary, it makes her look professional.

    The Wolf

    #791123

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Absolutely not! I mentioned while the Shidduch was ongoing, that when Shidduchim are made, I expect the going rate.

    Excuse my ignorance, but what does “when the Shidduch is made” mean? Introduction? First date? Engagement? Marriage? And, more importantly, do you *know* that the phrase means the same thing to your client as it does to you?

    The same applies to “going rate.”

    The Wolf

    #791124

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I mentioned while the Shidduch was ongoing, that when Shidduchim are made, I expect the going rate.

    I don’t think you even needed to do that (but if the rate would need to be discussed, it should have been done before the shidduch began).

    #791125

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Shadchanus doesn’t quite work that way. They HAVE to pay up!

    Why? I believe even Bais Din would not say so.

    DY: All professionals that I have dealt with have told me what they will charge up front. If they can’t give me a number but expect to be paid, then I will not use them (I tried it once and got burned, and decided it was not worth fighting the extreme overcharge).

    All in all Of Course is “right”, but I think “on the ball” has the best attitude here.

    #791126

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Just to make the point a bit clearer…

    I teach laining to Bar Mitzvah boys. When people ask me my rate, I am *purposely* vague. The reason for it is that I really do it for the love of it, rather than the money. So, if they pay me, then great — I have some extra spending money; and if they don’t, that’s okay with me too.

    But if I was truly counting on the money (which, it seems, the OP is), I’d be *very clear* up front what my fees are and when they are due. I wouldn’t just say “the going rate” and I wouldn’t be vague about at what point payment is due.

    The Wolf

    #791127

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You’d be surprised… I *do* ask professionals how much they charge before they start work — including plumbers.

    Sure you do – because they don’t tell you otherwise! I think you’re smart for doing so (I’m not surprised), I just don’t think it’s his obligation to tell you.

    On the contrary, it makes her look professional.

    Some people don’t like that in a shadchan and it’s her prerogative to decide

    what does “when the Shidduch is made” mean?

    Generally, engagement.

    The same applies to “going rate.”

    They can determine that themselves.

    #791128

    shein
    Member

    That’s different, since you are willing to accept whatever they pay, large or small.

    #791129

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why? I believe even Bais Din would not say so.

    In conversations with someone familiar with Choshen Mishpat, it’s clear that shadchanus is like any other profession and is entitled to compensation, and can have a beis din enforce that.

    The reason I differentiate between shadchanus and other work is because of the emotional aspect of it; people feel that shadchanim should really be doing it for the mitzvah, and are put off by financial talk (although they shouldn’t be).

    I think “on the ball” has the best attitude here.

    I agree.

    #791130

    i get the feeling from the op, that although he wishes to try and collect the fee in this case, he sounds like he doesnt want to make his shadchanus in general a “business” and would probably be uncomfortable discussing payment up front. sounds like he gets a lot of pleasure in doing this as well as some Parnassah?

    am i right?

    so sometimes a case like this might occur and then the question comes up how to handle it, not how he should change his practice so thaat it doesnt happen again.

    am i still right?

    if i am please dont say well if he doesnt discuss payment up front he has to expect problems sometimes. true but thats not the point. what is asking is how to handle this case now, yes?

    #791131

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Generally, engagement.

    Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps the OP’s client took it to mean marriage and since the marriage has not yet taken place, the fee is not yet incurred. Just because you think that the term “generally” means engagement, that does not mean that the OP’s client believed it to be so. The same goes for “going rate.”

    In short, if the OP has specific expectations for doing the job, then she should make those expectations clear up front. Failure to do so only invites situations such as the OP is facing now.

    The Wolf

    #791132

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    That’s different, since you are willing to accept whatever they pay, large or small.

    Yes, that’s my point. The OP, on the other hand, has specific expectations as to her fee. Therefore, she should be clear up front as to what those expectations are.

    The Wolf

    #791133

    golden mom
    Member

    I think u should mention it to somebody in the family that they should go bk and say I asked the shadchin what she got…and she said nothing. On ur parts pls be very careful on ur thoughts of the young couple I have heard of many stories first hand that the couple was experiencing problems like for example they couldn’t have kids and went for brochos and they were told first take care of the shadchin and they were shocked because they thought the parents took care…

    #791134

    rescue37
    Participant

    Out of curiosity, what is the going rate?

    #791135

    Ofcourse
    Member

    WM, And, more importantly, do you *know* that the phrase means the same thing to your client as it does to you?

    Well do you think it means zero?

    #791136

    a mamin
    Participant

    The Kallahs mother said she sent you a check with the invitation. Obviously asking for another invitation was not enough of a hint for her. You are not a schnorer for saying I never got that check. EVERYONE knows a shadchan is supposed to be paid in some form.

    #791137

    Ofcourse
    Member

    WM Perhaps the OP’s client took it to mean marriage and since the marriage has not yet taken place, the fee is not yet incurred.

    You missed in the original post: The wedding was this week.

    #791138

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    In conversations with someone familiar with Choshen Mishpat, it’s clear that shadchanus is like any other profession and is entitled to compensation, and can have a beis din enforce that.

    Interesting. I’m unaware (although granted not a Rov or expert) of any Kinyan or Chiyuv created by making a shidduch suggestion (although I could be wrong). Doing actual work would create a Kinyan in the chefetz, or a chiyuv based on the parties’ prior agreement.

    #791139

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Well do you think it means zero?

    I *don’t* think it means zero, but you know what? What *I* think doesn’t really matter. What matters (and only what matters) is what you think and what your client thinks — and it seems obvious that the two of you have very different thoughts on at least some points.

    The Wolf

    #791140

    Ofcourse
    Member

    UPDATE:

    I just got an email from the Kallah’s mother.

    “The kids know what they have to do. They are waiting for after Sheva Brochos”.

    How long do I wait, if I am NOT about to chalk this up after all my efforts, and what do I do next? I wonder if the “kids” even know that the parents didnt take care of Shadchanus and expect them to.

    #791141

    festa guy
    Member

    I don’t understand. The mother said that she mailed you an invitation and a check. Maybe she really did and you just never got it- it got lost in the mail. Now you are not asking her for money straight out and she thinks she sent it to you already. She probably thinks that you are now asking her for some pictures and an invitation to put aside and she doesn’t realize that you have alterior motives. Why don’t you just tell her straight out that you never got the original invite with the check? She probably doesn’t even realize.

    #791142

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    How long do I wait, if I am NOT about to chalk this up after all my efforts, and what do I do next?

    Send her a note thanking her for her response, wishing the couple lots of nachas and mazal, and that you look forward to receiving a check before date X (pick a date at some point — but not too long — after Sheva Brachos)

    The Wolf

    #791143

    Ofcourse
    Member

    WM Send her a note thanking her for her response, wishing the couple lots of nachas and mazal, and that you look forward to receiving a check before date X (pick a date at some point — but not too long — after Sheva Brachos)

    I like that and I did just that. Heres what I wrote- I think it’s non- threatening but to the point:

    __________________________________________________________________

    _ _ _ _, I want to make sure you understand that I never got a check.

    Did you ever mail me a check (Id really like an answer- why should I wonder) and if yes, what made you turn the responsibility over to the couple?

    Are they aware that they have the responsibility? If yes, Id really like it within a month, just as anyone likes to be paid for services rendered.

    #791144

    shein
    Member

    That sounds tough.

    #791145

    mewho
    Participant

    how about being a little softer and saying something like……..thank you for your email. i just want to clarify that i never received teh check or invitation. please call your bank to make sure the check was not found and cashed by someone else. i would appreciate it if you would then mail me a new check.

    once again mazel tov and have lots of naches

    #791146

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    gaw,

    It makes sense that it wouldn’t be different than any other s’chirus. If you hire a secretary to work for you (and she does), could you exempt yourself from paying her because no kinyan was made in a cheifetz?

    #791147

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Ofcourse,

    Save the emails. These sound like slippery people.

    Wolf,

    When no specific agreement is made between two parties, the halacha is that minhag hamakom prevails. That would apply to both the rate, and the expected date of payment.

    #791148

    Ofcourse
    Member

    After months of me mentioning that I expect Shadchanus, and her answering sure, and then telling me she mailed me a check in an invitation, then switching and saying the couple will take care of it, which is not really nice, to say the least, I think I had the right to sound a little tough. Shes been making a fool out of me, I feel. Im so turned off I cant think of Shidduchim. Im nauseaus. She was sooooo friendly while I was redding her Shidduchim.

    #791149

    Baal Boose
    Participant

    To wolf, As to when the obligatin to pay;

    It used to be minhag at the engagement- ewhen they had a real vort with tnoim.

    In todays time the obligation is when they actually marry.

    To Gavra, actually there is a special haloche that making a shidduch obligates you even if no kinyan is made.

    There are similar rules regarding “sirsur’ being a broker for anything.

    There is a siman in chosen mishpat dealing with this. (Im embarrased to say i cant remember which.)

    To of course, if the parents dont pay the couple is obligated.

    Speak to the rov, and then send a note to both michetanim (c.c. to each other) then send a polite note to the couple, wishing them siyata dishmaya. (Consider; Ask them if they would like to consider it as tzdoka)

    Actually you probaly just want the decency of recognition.

    In which case say you feel hurt they didnt invite you, and perhaps they can send you a note and a token of their appreciation, and an invite to the bris/kiddush

    #791150

    GeshmakMan
    Participant

    How about being happy that your brought Simcha to other Yidden and that Hashem will reward you in His way that is worth more than a few dollars?

    My wife and I made a shidduch, and the Kalla’s mother gave us a nice gift. And if she hadn’t, life goes on knowing that we BH brought Simcha to someone else.

    #791151

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    When no specific agreement is made between two parties, the halacha is that minhag hamakom prevails. That would apply to both the rate, and the expected date of payment.

    Is there a prevailing norm on either that is firmly established? I’m not so certain that there is.

    And, even if there is, it *still* makes good sense to have everything specified up front. I *really* find it hard to believe that you think that there is something wrong with specifying fees for services up front.

    The Wolf

    #791152

    Understand
    Member

    If someone makes a shidduch, the “minhag hamokem” is to pay before the wedding. It is not a choice if they want to or not, they owe the shadchon his/her wage. He/She worked hard on the shidduch (I would assume, most shidduchim are a huge headach) and even if it went easy that is norm in todays day and age.

    Ofcourse, you did the right thing by asking about the payment. BTW what about his side, did they pay you? Good Luck! Hope it’s a big check at the end of all this.

    #791153

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I *really* find it hard to believe that you think that there is something wrong with specifying fees for services up front.

    Nothing wrong, just uncomfortable when it involves shidduchim.

    Is there a prevailing norm on either that is firmly established? I’m not so certain that there is.

    There’s probably a range, and a beis din can probably only enforce the lower end of the range (as long as it’s not very atypical).

    As far as time of payment, Baal Boose might be right, and if there’s no firmly established minhag, they parents can probably choose the later date, but I’m sure there’s no later date expected

    than the marriage.

    #791154

    oomis
    Participant

    I don’t get any of this. If A shadchan was kind enough (paying basis or not) to help my child find the person he or she married, not only would they be paid SOME form of shadchanus, but they would have a seat of honor at the simcha! How could the mother not notice the shadchan was not at the wedding????????

    #791155

    Ofcourse
    Member

    oomis How could the mother not notice the shadchan was not at the wedding????????

    A Shailoh? I never got an invitation.

    _______________________________________________________________

    Im thinking- would it be more gauche of me than she has been if I ask her to perhaps lay out the money for the couple. Let them work it out between themselves. It is already overdue.

    Is there a tactful way to say it?

    #791156

    cherrybim
    Participant

    The shadchan should receive a hakaras hatov phone call once a year, every year, from the married couple.

    The shadchanis gift for suggesting a shidduch is such that the shachan feels satisfied and good with it. Of course, it should be given before the wedding and an invitation goes without saying.

    #791157

    ronrsr
    Member

    Does this constitute a crisis?

    #791158

    Ofcourse
    Member

    The Chassan and Kallah both are on Facebook. Is there a tactful way to let them know that their mother/mother in law expects them to take care of Shadchanus?

    If we believe that not paying Shadchanus can be harmful to Mazel, whether the Shadchan feels badly about it or not, then wouldnt I be helping them by telling them that it wasnt taken care of?

    #791159

    spiral
    Participant

    I was having difficulty doing a shidduch with my son. I knew that my own shadchan was not happy with the way my mother in law treated her. I went to my shadchan’s house and gave her an envelope saying that my mother in law decided to do the right thing. Well, six weeks later my son got engaged. At that point some of his classmates already had several children. I didn’t say anything to my mother in law, but was worried that the shadchan might thank her when she sees her at the wedding.

    I don’t know if his getting engaged had anything to do with the shadchanus being paid, but who cares.

    As far as I know a shadchan has to be paid.

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