March 12, 2019 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #1693717
I was brought up in an environment that wasn’t to positive about Chabbad. This made me more curious to learn about Chabbad and its hashkafos. My experience is that they are more positive and have a better outlook on life than what I learned from litvish/heimish people. The main thing that’s stopping me is that people will make comments and call me weird, a kofer, and other things. Am I right?March 12, 2019 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #1693769
Why are you joining? Is there something wrong with the kehila/hashkafa you’re currently affiliated with?
One isn’t supposed to change away from their father’s minhagim.March 12, 2019 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #1694179
It is not so poshut to join Chabad.
Did you go over the 15 page application form?
Then they have requirements that take hours of each day!
The bare MINIMUM is you gotta spend lots of time each day doing what they call “Chitas” – the entire parsha WITH Rashi! A chunk of Tehilim. And almost a chapter in Tanya.
But that’s not all! No youi aren’t done with the MINUMUM requirements yet!
You also gotta do THREE preokim in RAMBAM – daily.
They also expect you to learn many of the weekly sichos and attend regular farbrengens (almost weekly or at least 3 a month!) …
and that is the MINIMUM requirements for…girls.
Boys gotta do so much more!
And don’t forget the expectation that you leave civilization and open up a Chabad House in places that you never knew existed. (Not a single kosher pizza shop or restaurant within a 4-hour flight radius!)
Is that what you want to join?
We make fun of Chabad with comments because we are intimidated by them. They are scary people! The stuff they do is not what we are used to and that makes us uncomfortable. It makes us feel safe when we call them weird or a kofer or anything else – that way, we don’t need to do the stuff they do for other Jews .
(Chabad is only good if you need a minyan or kosher kugel in the Congo, Africa or you need wine and challah in Vietnam. Oh, it is also good if chas vsholom your daughter goes off the derech, stops keeping shabbos or kosher, got a tattoo and went to Napal with her goy-friend, that is when you call Chabad in Napal and they will help you – even if you called them kofrim! But for us who live the good life – Chabad is not what we idolize).
Life is good. Why join and turn your world upside down?
The application to join,,,the commitment…fugetaboutit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!March 12, 2019 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #1694336
UJM I think they make more sense, on a lot of things. And while shlichus is someghing they aspire to, they’ll warn you that you will be on your own. Part of it is revelling against the system in a Jewish way.March 12, 2019 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #1694344
historically speaking, Chabad was for many years the closest type of Chassidus to the Litvishe velt. The Meshichists changed everything, but as long as you align with the type of Chabad which doesn’t proclaim a sort of Judaism which looks dangerously similiar to christianity, I don’t think anyone will think you’re a Kofer, or strange. Different, maybe disgruntled in your own community, but not a kofer….March 12, 2019 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #1694422
1: Many people certainly become Lubavitchers. A Chabad shliach told me that he estimates that about one third of all shluchim are BTs. I actually know one guy who raised his kids totally Yeshivish and yet the son became Chabad and is now a shliach in a big city, and his kids are shluchim too.
But contrary to Rebbetzin’s comment, most Chabadniks are not shluchim–most live in Crown Heights, some other big city, or Israel.
Keep in mind that it’s not all or nothing. Many people may learn Chabad chassidus, learn the Rebbe’s sichos, and even attend Chabad shuls and farbrengens, and yet retain a non-Chabad appearance, and retain regular Ashenazi nusach and minhagim. It’s the same with Breslov.
People shouldn’t feel stuck in the derech they were born in. Every combination and direction of change happens today–chassidim who become Litvaks, Satmar who become dati leumi, people who combine Chabad-Breslov-Kook-Carlebach, Ashkenazim who follow a lot of Sephardic kabbalistic customs, you name it. Whatever your soul is attracted to, go for it, provided it’s kosher–and see what works in bring you closer to HKBH.March 12, 2019 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #1694411
Captain “We only have to do 613 commandments” – speak for yourself, I only have half of them – the 365 lo sa’asey and the handful of mitzva assei she’ain hazman gerama plus a few exceptions like Ad Dlo Yada on Purim.
Besides, you are not being truthful!
Are you a kohen? Because many of the 613 apply only to kohanim bizman habayis, (so even if you are a Kohen, there is no Bayis).
And are you a melech (King from Shevet Yehudah)?
Becasue some only apply to him…
So you REALLY do NOT have 613 commandments!
But you made comment to try to put down a group of yidden – is that not violating a few of those 613 commandments?!
I am no friend of Chabad, but I do love Jews – even you.March 12, 2019 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1694447
Some really funny comments here. If you are a very non-judgemental yid who feels a need to engage in outreach to bring your brothers and sisters closer to yiddeshkeit and the chabad minhagim resonate with your own hashkafah, than “go for it” and don’t be locked in by your family’s historical alliances. As we have learned here over the past several years from Chabad Shalucha, there is more to chabad than running up and down Eastern Parkway waving yellow flags and singing Moishichist nigunnim.March 12, 2019 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #1694458
yytz – I did not say that all or most in Chabad go on shlichus, I wrote that there is “the expectation” that they go.
They have that goal and mindset – even though not everyone reaches that goal.
In my world most boys have “the expectation” of becoming a talmid chochom, but alas, few reach that goal. Among the girl, most dream of marrying a future godal and to support his learning all his live – few such dreams are realized.
We all need goals and dreams.
Just like in my world there are Yissochor and Zevulun – the learners and those supporting earners, in Chabad too there are the soldiers on the battlefront and those back home shipping supplies and training new soldiers for the future.
Chabad is not my cup of tea but like great art, I stare at it with admiration..March 12, 2019 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1694502
Btw you forgot the 7 mitzvos drabananMarch 12, 2019 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #1694500
I don’t want to do outreach. I just like what they do.March 12, 2019 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #1694507
“People shouldn’t feel stuck in the derech they were born in. Every combination and direction of change happens today–chassidim who become Litvaks, Satmar who become dati leumi, people who combine Chabad-Breslov-Kook-Carlebach, Ashkenazim who follow a lot of Sephardic kabbalistic customs, you name it. Whatever your soul is attracted to, go for it, provided it’s kosher–and see what works in bring you closer to HKBH.”
This is a falsity. Halachicly one should not change from his father’s derech, minhagim, etc. That a requirement. Judaism isn’t a shmorgosboard menu of picking and choosing what you like best. Born a Litvak (love that gebrochts)? Tomorrow become Sephardic (kitniyos tastes good)! Didn’t work out? Change right over to being Yekke (three hours fleshings.) Not your cup of tea? No problemo, tomorrow you’ll be Satmar (here comes the mitzvah tantz.)March 12, 2019 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #1694562
Captain “I am a man and havea constant chiyuv to learn Torah”
You keep spouting untruthful comments!
There are times during the day when it is FORBIDDEN for you to learn Torah (when using the lavatory).
There are times when you are POTTUR from learning Torah (e.g. during davening…)
There are times when you are UNABLE to learn Torah (during sleep).
No, the chiyuv is NOT “constant “!
What possess you to make untruthful comments?
`March 12, 2019 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1694593
Following the Rule of Joseph, we all know the major differneces within our own circle, between a Lakewooder and a Telzer, A Brisker and a Mirer or a Ponevitcher. We must stick to our mesorah, and a Chaim Berliner must not become a Ner Yisroel’nik, and chas v’sholom a Brisker going to Ponevitch.
Those that know, know the differences. Because the Rule of Joseph becomes “nosata d’vorecha l’shiurim”, this is not as “vayt” (pronounced: white with a v) from that, but this is…as decided by King Joseph.
Proof is that all Jews keep their mesorah, hence by doing so over 2000 years, they are all…the same (and any differences are a figment of your imagination).March 12, 2019 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1694596
Captain _ “Even if we cant physically do a mitzvah, by learning about it, its as if we do it.”
So if we learn about Chabad, its as if we become Chabad!
And if you learn about tefillin – you don’t need to put on tefillin?!
Let’s learn about moshiach and then we don’t need him…NOT!March 12, 2019 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #1694763
Why don’t you find out WHY your mesorah was against chabad instead of assuming they’re wrong?March 12, 2019 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #1694774
To rebbetzen goldenskdmffndndnf.
Get a life.
You don’t know anything about chabadMarch 12, 2019 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #1694776
Don’t decide what your doing from yeshivah world.
And whatever this rebbetzens garbage is?
2 of my bros became lubbavitch
You don’t change drasticlly from one thing to another and no they don’t learn the entire chumash everyday day. Just one aliyah and you besides that you don’t need do everything.
I am not chabad and I do chitasMarch 12, 2019 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #1694777
HATERS GONNA HATE!!!!March 12, 2019 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #1694760
While you’re at it, why not explore Lev Tahor?March 12, 2019 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #1694798
“…WHY your mesorah was against”
Like finding out why esov soneh l’yaakov.
But in truth no one claims such a “mesorah” of hate. The OP wrote he “was brought up in an “environment” that wasn’t to positive about Chabad” – “environment” means friends, neighbours, classmates etc – not “mesorah”
The “environment” fostered a hanhogah which is anti-Torah. Torah demands ahavas Yisroel. Sinas Yisroel is for Esov. No one can be bound to a mesorah of Esov, just like someone brought up in an “environment” of chilul shabbos does noty have a “mesorah’ of chilul shabbos.
To question: .Why don’t you find out WHY your mesorah was against chabad instead of assuming they’re wrong?” is like saying: “Why don’t you find out WHY your mesorah was for chilul shabbos instead of assuming they’re wrong?”
Yes, going against Torah is wrong. Promoting going against Torah is a maysis u’mediach!
LerntminTayrah – are you a maisis u’mediach?!March 12, 2019 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #1694808
Just stop these threads. Every side has there strengths and weaknesses. Each side thinks they are right. You want to stay where youre at do it, you want to leave, do it. Dont make a whole scene. This thread is going to turn ugly quick. Mods should stop approving such sinas chinam threads. And I mean sinas chinam from both sides. All sides have what to work on. Enough of these sick arguments!March 12, 2019 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #1694813
This Thread was quite funny until people took this personal
Don’t worry about rebbetzingoldenpupik she(/he – so she claims) has a good sense of humer. Especially cuz she has no clue abt anything in chabad.
– yes she may have been making fun but she definitely holds of ahavas yisroel so shes allowed to, no?March 13, 2019 2:16 am at 2:16 am #1694847
“Halachicly one should not change from his father’s derech, minhagim, etc. That a requirement. ”
Can you please explain then how Chassidus or Chabad came about? At some point their ancestors did not daven Nusach Sephard/Ari etc.
It is far from as simple than the black and white you have stated. There are minhagim that can not be switched and there are some that can, with certain conditions. However, the main thing is you need to follow “a” mesorah. If you decide to join Chabad you need to keep all chabad minhagim. Same applies the other way around..March 13, 2019 2:17 am at 2:17 am #1694832
Joseph: One is not allowed to change mesorah where it pertains to minhagim, however regarding hashkafa there is no such thing as following in your fathers mesorah. No one (unless he knows your shoresh haneshama) can tell you which path of avodas Hashem is the best for you. Ultimately hashkafa is just another way of saying how one can grow in avodah, and since everyone is different, what worked for you parents may not necessarily work for you. Since none of us are big enough to actually forge his own path we must follow a path already made, however, which one can be different for each individual.March 13, 2019 8:00 am at 8:00 am #1694947
Can a a Lakewooder switch to Telz? What about a Brisker checking out Mirer? And can they then try out Ponevitch? ” We must stick to our mesorah” so a Chaim Berliner must not become a Ner Yisroel’nik. That doesn’t make sense.March 13, 2019 8:02 am at 8:02 am #1694909
I just remembered, another book which might be of interest to several forumers here…
This is back from the days of the old Misnagdim. One Chossid of the Tzemach Tzedek (and I think he was the chossid all the way back to the Alter Rebbe, if I’m not mistaken) who was challenged by a very serious Talmid Chochom who was a misnaged, regarding several questions on Chassidim. One of the main questions was one of the change of Minhagim.
Well, what ensued was a sort of debate which was printed in a book in recent years called “Vikucha Rabba” ויכוחה רבה, which is fairly in-depth, on the matter…March 13, 2019 8:29 am at 8:29 am #1694961
“One is not allowed to change mesorah where it pertains to minhagim, however regarding hashkafa there is no such thing as following in your fathers mesorah.”
How do you propose that works? Suppose someone changes from Litvish to Satmar or, say, from Ashkenazi to Sephardi, how does the former Litvak now Satmar, or the former Ashkenazi now Sephardi, stick to his original mesorah insofar as Litvish minhagim (Shmini Atzeres in the succah, gebrochts, etc) or Ashkenazic minhagim (selichos, kitniyos, nusach Ashkenaz, etc.) but suddenly start following the “hashkafos” of Satmar or Sefardim, respectively.March 13, 2019 8:38 am at 8:38 am #1694959
“Don’t worry about rebbetzingoldenpupik she(/he – so she claims) has a good sense of humer. Especially cuz she has no clue abt anything in chabad.”
I love Chabad because they are yidden, and I love all yidden, because that is a mitzvah (V’Ahavta). Just as I keep shabbos, kashrus and ad dlo yada – I also keep V’Ahavta l’rayacha lo’mocha.
Anyone that b’shita does not love ANY yidden is simply not frum (= not a shomer mitzvos).
Yes we make jokes about yekkas, and Telzers, and Chaim Berliners, and Briskers (don’t get me started on Brisker jokes) and Chabad, and Breslov…but it is only good humored fun (just as we might make fun of ourselves) without any viciousness or hatred.
Yidden are like my cholent – there are potatoes, beans, barley, meat, onions and all my secret ingredients. We need each ingredient to make the cholent and if one is removed, the cholent won’t be what it should.
The beans in the cholent might make fun of the potatoes, and the meat might think that he is the “real” cholent and the onion is not part of the Cholent Tzibbur, but that is pure silliness.
So if you are the barley or the spice – without the rest of us you do not make the Tzibbur of Klal Yisroel.March 13, 2019 8:41 am at 8:41 am #1694874
Apart from all the petty & ignorant misconceptions about Chabad (from many of you), my comment is… Rebbetzin etc, you really should get more sleep and take something to help you focus before you blither on.
Hating other Jews is not exactly in the spirit of Ahavas Yisrael. But I do agree with you on one point… you sure know where to find us when you’re stuck. Because nobody else is there, physically or in any other way, when you are stranded in Vietnam, the Amazon jungle, Addis Abbaba or any other strange place.
Chabad can always rely on being despised & used by the rest of you. You nailed it.March 13, 2019 8:59 am at 8:59 am #1695005
How many idiots ever go to Vietnam, the Amazon jungle or Addis Abbaba?!March 13, 2019 9:59 am at 9:59 am #1695011
Mrs Joseph asks How do you propose that works? Suppose someone changes from x to z … stick to his original mesorah insofar as x minhagim…but suddenly start following the “hashkafos” of y?
Let me answer slowly so you can follow.
Yidden from the Old Country arrived in the early Yishuv of EY.
Many kept their hashkofos but took on minhagei EY.
Example one of numerous, talmidei HaGra of EY have unique minhagim that the talmidei HaGRa of CHUTZ do not have.
That is how it works.
People “evolve” according to their community and hashkofos while keeping certain core mionhagim and mesorah. Yes, sometimes, those are lost and it is hard to identify them with the “original” mesorah (as exampe cited).March 13, 2019 9:59 am at 9:59 am #1695012
If someone moved to Amsterdam they very well could take up the Minhag of 1 hour between meat and MilkMarch 13, 2019 9:59 am at 9:59 am #1695017
Joseph, there are quite a number of lost Jewish souls, in the Amazon, whose ancestors came to the region looking to make a living and escape the tyranny in Europe. Ultimately, many of them ended up marrying tribal women. In vietnam, you’ll find Israelis.March 13, 2019 10:14 am at 10:14 am #1695066
“Can you please explain then how Chassidus or Chabad came about?”
Reb Moshe said he didn’t know their heter to be mevatel their minhagei avos. It’s not so simple that just because they exist, it must be mutar. The original generation of Chassidim who were mevatel minhag Ashkenaz were most likely over an issur (depending on the Chassidus; some are probably not a real shinui).March 13, 2019 10:40 am at 10:40 am #1695201
“If someone moved to Amsterdam they very well could take up the Minhag of 1 hour between meat and Milk”
You don’t even have to move to Amsterdam, according to the arguments here. Just declare yourself to accept the Dutch Jewish hashkafas (same way someone might become Chabad) and you can start eating milichigs 1 hour after fleishigs.March 13, 2019 10:41 am at 10:41 am #1695164
In Kabbalah, it’s bad to wear black on Shabbos. In Israel, you’ll find Yemenite and Sefardim wearing white on Shabbos. Our yeshiva system is also a change to something.March 13, 2019 10:42 am at 10:42 am #1695204
If there’s a piece of meat which many say is treif, and there are those with teirutzim to say why it’s not treif, you choose a piece of meat with no shailos over the meat which many say is treif. Safeik deoraysa lechumra.
Many gedolim say Chabad the way it is today is avoda zara / apikorsus. Chabad has teirutzim why it’s not, but why not choose a chassidus that doesn’t require teirutzim to not be avoda zara or apikorsus?March 13, 2019 10:42 am at 10:42 am #1695163
Neville or they were trying to bring back the old days that were changed in Europe. This rational, litvish approach was a reaction to the Sabbateans. However, Sefardim were into kabalah throughout the ages.March 13, 2019 11:05 am at 11:05 am #1695218
Mrs Joseph wonders: “How many idiots ever go to Vietnam, the Amazon jungle or Addis Abbaba?!”
Do you live in a cave?
Just a few days ago news headlines:
Mahgichim for major kashrus orgs (including the OU which you disparage their poskim), business chareidim (from all segments), frum tourist, and the OTD kids searching to escape…
But that is besides the point.
How dare you call yidden names? Chazal tell us: kol haposel b’mumo possel, so if you call them idiots, we must conclude that you are.March 13, 2019 11:07 am at 11:07 am #1695219
LerntminTayrah states: “Many gedolim say Chabad the way it is today is avoda zara / apikorsus.”
Challenge: name the MANY “gedolim”!
There are none.
You are simply creating a big lie that if kept repeated, you start believing it yourself as you try to create sinas yisroel and pirud ha’levovos. You howl at the moon like a rabid dog with saliva drooling into a puddle as he spews poison.
You need to be more carefulMarch 13, 2019 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1695240
Based on the how the Rambam held, it’s pashut avodah zarah.March 13, 2019 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1695241
There are about 100,000 Jews in Brazil (The Amazon)
Addis Abbaba had a large population of jews until around 1990 and still has around 4000 (Number is debateable because of the Falash Mura)March 13, 2019 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #1695256
So we all agree that I can be mekabel upon myself to accept being a member of the Dutch hashkafa, as much as the OP accepts Chabad for himself, and I can start eating milichigs one hour after fleishigs?March 13, 2019 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #1695247
I should explain that i described you as: howling at the moon like a rabid dog with saliva drooling into a puddle as he spews poison…
Because you used a moshel from ” a piece of meat which many say is treif”, and we all know treifa basodeh – la’kelev tashlichun oso (the piece of trief meat is given to the dog to consume).
Better be like the other dog that had the zchus “l’kol bnei yisroel lo yechratz kelev l’shono” (the dog that did not howl at ANY yid)!March 13, 2019 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1695594
There is truth in what you’re saying. And, you could certainly make that point to support the Chassidusim who base many of their minhagim in the Chasam Sofer and often follow the Rema more closely that most Litvaks (eg. yotzros). However, Chabad is not one of these Chassidusim. All the minhagim for which they are known are invented, not based in any sources whatsoever.March 13, 2019 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1695596
It seems that there is confusion with hashkafah and minhagim. Hashkafah is a derech in avodah, of how one should go around with achieving their tafkid; this can be changed. Minhag, although not all things actually count as one, pertains to halacha, not pure hashkafah, that cannot be changed simply. Waiting one, three, or six hours is not an hashkafik issue rather an halachic one.March 13, 2019 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #1695628
“…or they were trying to bring back the old days that were changed in Europe. This rational, litvish approach was a reaction to the Sabbateans. However, Sefardim were into kabbalah throughout the ages.
No, the above is a distortion. The Gaon and his talmidim learned Kabbalah. The Talmidei Chachamim that where holding by it among other Chassidim learned Kabbalah. Chabbad’s chidush was what amounts to a “Kabbalah l’am” approach. This was certainly an innovation. They themselves acknowledge this.March 13, 2019 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #1695631
Here we go again!March 13, 2019 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #1695654
@ The Fake Maven
“Ultimately hashkafa is just another way of saying how one can grow in avodah.”
No, this is so wrong I don’t even know where to begin. There are many differences in matters of hanhaga and matters that deal with Yesodei HaDas. Not at all comparable to going from Brisk, to Mir, to Telz, to Ner. Sorry, don’t have time for a more complete response right now.
“No one (unless he knows your shoresh haneshama) can tell you which path of avodas Hashem is the best for you…”
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