Kiddush Shabbos Morning on bronf'n

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  • #601951
    greatest
    Member

    There is a Chasidishe minhag to make kiddush Shabbos morning on bronf’n (whiskey) in a small “bronf’n gleizel”. How do those with this shitta account for the general larger shiur held of by most others?

    #858866
    ED IT OR
    Participant

    there are many chassidish minhagim, who says they count?

    #858867
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    There is a valid chassidish opinion to do this. The theory is that the shiur is based on what is a normal chashuv amount to drink. With whiskey, that is the normal amount to drink.

    However, litvaks should not do this.

    #858868
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    This is based on the shittah of the Ta”z.

    The Mishnah Berurah, when discussing hilchos kiddush, does not even mention this shittah.

    It should also be noted that the M”B defines chamar medinah as the drink used when there is no wine in the city, so according to him, even with a reviis it would not be okay. R’ Moshe has a more liberal definition, according to which a reviis of whiskey would be okay for Shabbos day and havdalah (although all else being equal, wine is still better).

    #858869

    Hmmm..never saw this anywhere but in MO shuls.

    In Chabad, the trend is going away from mashke and to wine, but the holdouts, including myself on Shabbos Mevorchim and special shabbosim, are very careful to use Rav Noeh’s shiur for mashke.

    #858870
    sam4321
    Participant

    See piskei tshuvos he brings a few shittos on this topic.

    #858871
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Reb Ber: I see it all the time in chassidishe shteiblach (well the one I daven at, anyway). I also haven’t seen many lubavitchers switch to wine either.

    #858872

    The wine switch might be happening more in EY which is where most shluchim where I am are from. The Lubavitcher Rebbe ZYA was against using mashke, but it was an old minhag from the former USSR, where there was no wine during Communist times, and making your own kosher wine was risky. All most people could do in Communist times was to make wine in small batches from raisins.

    #858873
    lesschumras
    Participant

    There actually is a historical reason for the MB allowing whiskey. He mentions that wine was hard to get but not a the reason why. There was a mini ice age in Europe that lasted over 200 years that caused average temperatures to drop over 20 degrees, enough to kill off al vineyards in northern Europe. That’s when beer whiskey vodka gin started to be distilled out of what was locally available. Because north Europeans settled north America, Americans were not wine drinkers early on

    #858874
    Knacke
    Participant

    Mr ‘crazybrit’ if theres 1reason why moshiach isn’t here yet, then i think you have the clue. You’re a self-hating jew. Just because your minhagim differ, doesn’t mean they don’t count. Get a grip klal yisroel has enough tzorois without you adding your own hypocritical, anti-semitism.

    #858875
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The Tzanzer Rav used to do it. When he would visit Hungary, though, he wouldn’t. It wasn’t the Minhag in Hungary.

    The widely practiced Shiur is very inflated. Besides, there are many who have Mesoros from before the Chazon Ish with a smaller Shiur. Let’s not forget that a K’zayis is not supposed to be Kidei Svia. Does it really make sense that I have to eat a whole Matza to be Yotze a K’zayis? A K’zayis is the smallest amount that is considered eaten.

    #858876
    besalel
    Participant

    knacker: there are many things that chassdim do that most other observant jews consider to be aveiros. making kiddush this way is counted among them. if someone would do that in our shul we would tell him he is not yotzei kiddush.

    i heard that the satmar rebbe used to be mchalel shabbos after shkia until asked otherwise by rav kutler. if this story is true then the satmar rebbe would be considered a mechalel shabbos according to other torah jews. i am not chas veshalov trying to belittle chassidim, gd knows there are things about them we all should learn but facts are facts.

    i dont think you can call crazybrit an antisemite for suggesting that many things that the chassidim do are neged halocho according to everyone else.

    #858877
    WIY
    Member

    I just want to add that Bronfn is one of my favorite Yiddish words. No I’m not a drinker I just like the way that word sounds.

    #858878
    sushee
    Member

    besalel: what you write is fiction.

    #858879
    musser zoger
    Participant

    People who drink whiskey rely on the Taz in O.C. siman 210. His shita is halachicly reliable and in fact is not contradicted by the MB. Stop this silliness. The shita is NOT neged halacha!

    #858880
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    knacker: there are many things that chassdim do that most other observant jews consider to be aveiros. making kiddush this way is counted among them. if someone would do that in our shul we would tell him he is not yotzei kiddush.

    i heard that the satmar rebbe used to be mchalel shabbos after shkia until asked otherwise by rav kutler. if this story is true then the satmar rebbe would be considered a mechalel shabbos according to other torah jews. i am not chas veshalov trying to belittle chassidim, gd knows there are things about them we all should learn but facts are facts.

    i dont think you can call crazybrit an antisemite for suggesting that many things that the chassidim do are neged halocho according to everyone else.

    I’m going to be Moche on behalf of the Chassidim. You may be correct that there are certain shittos that Chassidim hold that are not universally accepted (such as Davening and doing Melacha after Shkia), but they have whom to be Somech on (such as Rabbanu Tam and the Taz). If you are being Motze La’az on those who follow their shittos, you are being Motze La’az on those who created them. Your beef is not with Chassidim, but with Rabbanu Tam.

    That being said, I agree that just because Chassidim hold of a shitta doesn’t mean that others need hold of it as well. He may be Yotze (you have no standing telling him he isn’t), but you shouldn’t be Yotze with his Kiddush (as has happened to me many times).

    #858881
    A Heimishe Mom
    Participant

    As far as I know, it is a Chassidishe minhag, and the litvish will not do it. Sources, I don’t know. But according to the litvish you need a reviis of whatever it is. I never came across anyone willing to make kiddush on a reviis of whiskey but something tells me that wouldn’t fly for a litvak. As for havdalah, even the litvish are more lenient – beer is perfectly acceptable for that (though again, I have never seen anyone make havdalah on any amount of whiskey).

    #858883
    musser zoger
    Participant

    “As for havdalah, even the litvish are more lenient – beer is perfectly acceptable for that (though again, I have never seen anyone make havdalah on any amount of whiskey).”

    Interesting! Shabbos morning kiddush is derabbonon and therefore would be easier to be meikel. Havdalla is d’oraissa and one should be more machmir.

    Boy i know I’m gonna get it for this but..methinks klal Yisroel has bigger problems than those that follow the Taz and make Shabbos morning kiddush on whiskey. Whether chasid or litvak.

    #858884
    sam4321
    Participant

    see Masharm who says why a little cup is ok and by wine it needs a shiur. 175 first paragraph, http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1386&st=&pgnum=183&hilite=

    #858885
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Knacker – I was gonna say the same thing you said but much more politely. I think speakeing that way pretty much defeats the purpose of the post measure for measure.

    Crazybrit – c’mon, for Rav Elyashiv’s sake if not all of ours, a little civility. (please)

    #858886
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    People who drink whiskey rely on the Taz in O.C. siman 210. His shita is halachicly reliable and in fact is not contradicted by the MB.

    The M”B in 272:30 does indeed contradict this shittah.

    #858887
    sam4321
    Participant

    DaasYochid : Doesn’t the Mishna Brura hold one can use whiskey l’chatchila if one likes it better but needs a reviis and drink a melo lugmav?

    #858888

    (though again, I have never seen anyone make havdalah on any amount of whiskey).

    I made it once on a reviis of 96! There is a segula to do this and then to pour the remaining 96 on the candle if you are in a property that is insured for more than it is worth.

    #858889
    147
    Participant

    The Lubavitcher Rebbe ZYA was against using mashke,

    I am not a Lubavitch, but I know one thing:- the Lubavitch Rebbe was an incredibly smart man; He graduated from the Sorbonne, so was highly intelligent, so if he said to stay away from mashke & make Kiddush on wine, clearly this is a smart & correct move.

    It will probably also help you fulfill the Chiyuv miDeoraiso of “veNishmartem Me’od leNafshoseichem”.

    #858890

    🙂 it is proper halacha from the Shulchan Aruch to make on wine. The Shulchan Aruch haRav does not mention using mashke either. It was hardly the Rebbe’s chiddush.

    Those who did make kiddush on mashke and continued to do so in the US and EY included many who lived into their 9th decade.

    #858891
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DaasYochid : Doesn’t the Mishna Brura hold one can use whiskey l’chatchila if one likes it better but needs a reviis and drink a melo lugmav?

    Wine was scarce, making whiskey chamar medinah at the time, in that location (he says bimdinaseynu).

    It would seem, though, that nowadays in the countries we live in, we don’t have chamar medinah according to the M”B’s definition. According to R’ Moshe’s definition, we do.

    #858892
    sushee
    Member

    What is the difference between “bronfn” and “schnapps”?

    #858893
    greatest
    Member

    Schnapps is a word in Yiddish, English, and German.

    #858894
    Toi
    Participant

    147- im not gonna get into an anti lubob shmooze here, but graduating from a prestigious secular school is hardly grounds enough to paskin halocho. and i dont think that smart and intelligent qualify one as a posek.

    #858895

    The Lubavitcher Rebbe ZYA was NOT a posek. When he spoke about wine vs mashke, he was rightfully concerned because Chabad was expanding far and wide, physically and socially outside its old base of Russian chassidim in NY, EY and Paris, and newcomers could have various issues with kiddush on mashke.

    He deferred to a community rov for simpler shylas and to Rav Moshe Feinstein for complex issues. The only real psak halacha the Rebbe was involved with had to do with ships traveling on Shabbos, and he was consulted davka because of his engineering knowledge.

    #858896
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Toi: You would not have dared to say that about any other rebbe, even one who did not produce nearly as much in both nigleh and nistar.

    #858897
    YakovL
    Member

    If you guys – and specially the ones with the critics are interested in the “sod” of schnaps/bronfen, I can reveal it. However, the consequences are that from this Shabbos onwards you will want to make Shabbos morning kiddush on schnaps/bronfen.Are you ready?

    #858898

    Yakov – hmm…sure!

    #858899
    longarekel
    Member

    YakovL: I’m interested in the ‘sod’. I’ll switch to bronfen if you can convince me.

    #858900
    sushee
    Member

    Let’s hear it, YaakovL.

    #858901
    Toi
    Participant

    actually, itch, i would.i prefaced my remarks by saying that i wasnt talking about the rebbe per say, rather pointing out that 147’s logic that being intelligent and graduating from an ivy league school, or an equivalent, isnt grounds to be a posek. i think you agree. your mistake was that since i responded about the lubavitcher rebbe it must have been a negative response, without reading my post. i would say it about any person, rebbe or not.

    #858902
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    I did read it, I know your opinion on Lubavitch from elsewhere, and you have shryed “bizui talmidei chachomim” on this forum when people have done much less than suggest that someone on your “good list” was not a posek.

    #858903
    ED IT OR
    Participant

    knacker, I just saw what you wrote and what to apologise if I offended you,

    I myself am a shtikle a chossid and have some interesting minhagim, which may not be right but according to my rav sometimes a minhag avoisainu is doiche a chumra derabonon.

    oh and I do make kiddush on whiskey, if you.look into it (as long as its a reviis) it could be better than grape juice which is a MASSIVE BEDI’EVED

    #858904
    ED IT OR
    Participant

    WHOOPS TO LATE TO EDIT, SORRY WANT

    #858905
    YakovL
    Member

    The Shabbos morning “kidduso rabo” is to bring out, as per the nussach,- the “ki sheishes yomim oso Hashem es hashomaim ve’es ho’oretz…” How did Hashem create the shomayim & the oretz? With the asoro maamoros. Therefore, we are looking to continue with a brocho which uses DAVKA SHEHAKOL NIHYO BIDVOROI; SHEHAKOL NIHYO (HOW ?) – BIDVOROI (the asoro maamoros).By using WINE for this kiddush, we would say the “borei pri hageen” and not “shehakol”. THEREFORE WE HAVE TO USE SCHNAPS/BRONFEN.

    #858907

    Great stuff, Yakov :)!

    #858908
    longarekel
    Member

    YakovL: Interesting. Can I make kiddush on water? What about on a piece of gefilte fish?

    #858909
    Toi
    Participant

    itch- I hear. In other words, you read my post, didnt attempt to understand my point, and based on a previous grievance decided to use this thread as a way to show exactly how much i despise what lubavitch has done to the world in the last twenty years. You said it, not me. Good job.

    Yakov- nice chassidishe’ pshat. But what happened to S”A?

    #858910
    babygoose
    Participant

    First of all, REMINDER:”minhag yisroel torah”.

    Second of all, Grape Juice is NOT the best thing to use. at all.

    i’m not chassidish and would rather use whisky then grape juice!

    #858911
    babygoose
    Participant

    and yakov – if that’s your own chiddush – it’s gevaldig!

    and if it’s already in there, well, it’s gevaldig anyway!

    #858912
    YakovL
    Member

    Are the following the only questions let on me? What “Toi” question?

    Longerakel: Can I make kiddush on water? What about on a piece of gefilte fish?

    Toi: Yakov- nice chassidishe’ pshat. But what happened to S”A?

    #858913
    Naysberg
    Member

    Yakov: Read above. Valid shittas have been cited for the smaller shiur.

    #858914
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Well, actually my Kasha is that we say Vayechulu on Friday night, not by day. Shouldn’t we therefore make Kiddush on Bronfun by night and wine by day?

    Another question is, do you think Kiddush on wine is a mistake? It has real ‘Sodos’, not just cute ones.

    #858915
    YakovL
    Member

    Naysberg: You are right there are valid shittas, but why not be simple-if we can and be ???? ??????? ??? ?????? by making kiddush on wine.

    Haleivi: In “Veyechulu” the focus is how ???”? rested from work and not that he created the world. (????? may not be from the ????? ????? as for example when Shabbos falls on Yom Tov, we dont say ?????)

    Kiddush on wine is not a mistake at all. Just there is a beatiful inyan to make on bronfun.

    #858916
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    YaakovL,

    We also say zikaron l’maaseh v’reishis at night, besides the fact that kiddush in the day is borei p’ri hagefen and the “nusach” you speak of is not me’ikar hadin.

    A cute pshetl is not a reason to do something which is questionable l’halacha.

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