Kol Isha

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  • #593824

    Cedarhurst
    Member

    If I hear a woman singing on a supermarket radio, must I immediately leave said supermarket?

    Note: I do not listen to taped Kol Isha.

    #723252

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    i don’t think there’s an issur to hearing i think it’s listening (B’poel)

    #723255

    bennaishek
    Participant

    mbachurs halacha is correct its from the rabeinu yona in the third perek in brachos

    #723257

    RSRH
    Member

    TMB: Why does doing one preclude doing the other? Obviously, in order for the Jewish people to be an effective or lagoyim, they must be an or to each other and insure that k’hal Yisrael is presenting the proper Torah-observant image to the world. But I am not sure why looking out for our own conduct and development, as well as that of our fellow Jews prevents us from projecting the Torah view of a better world to the non-Jews all around us – our colleagues at work and school, the mailman (woman), the bank teller, the grocery checkout girl (guy), and anyone else we come in contact with.

    #723258

    blueprints
    Participant

    Yes. People like you shouldn’t be out in the first place. !!! WHAT CHUTZPAH!!!

    just cos he has some religious standards and you don’t!

    that’s sickening!!! cos he wants to keep halocho to the best of his ability he should hear this?

    P.S. mods: I can’t understand how that comment got through

    but this one is a necessity

    #723263

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    mbachurs halacha is correct its from the rabeinu yona in the third perek in brachos

    baruch shekivanti!

    ‘People like you shouldnt be out int he first place’

    I don’t understand the message’ Can someone please explain?

    the person who posted this was trying to make a joke (like other commentators), albeit a sick one, by saying that someone that asks this is being overly machmir and shouldn’t walk out of his house b/c maybe he will see or hear something he shouldn’t

    Why is a halachic shilah being addressed to the anonymous commenters here? This is a question for ones own rav!

    I thought i said the same thing Idk why the moderator took it out

    #723267

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Shev, Feif Un, Tzippi-

    I have no idea why this poster deserves such a mean attitude, and I fully agree with blueprints’s comment. Does someone else’s desire to do the right thing make you feel uncomfortable? And by the way, if someone were ask how to take ma’aser from salt it would be a disgusting thing to tell him it’s a stupid question. When we say that’s what Eisav used to ask Yitzchak the point is he knew better and asked anyway in order to feign piety, which BY THE WAY Yitzchak was fooled by, so obviously such a person, at least according to Yitzchak Avinu, is not meant to be brushed off, if you don’t know that he’s trying to cause problems, which in this case YOU DON’T. I once heard over I think from R’ Moshe – “There are no stupid questions; only stupid answers”.

    Oh and by the way this is coming from someone who actually listens to kol isha on the radio. But I can actually stomach other opinions.

    #723269

    Cedarhurst
    Member

    I appreciate everyone’s defense. As to the question why I don’t address the foolish posts, my response is see Mish’le 26:4.

    #723271

    shlomozalman
    Member

    The answer to the question of the OP is that it is ok to stay and shop.

    #723272

    RuffRuff
    Member

    While we’re at it, although a nice and cute idea, I never saw a reference in Chazal showing that our purpose is for the Goyim. But, even if you like that new concept, you can’t make that your guiding factor.

    #723274

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    If I hear a woman singing on a supermarket radio, must I immediately leave said supermarket?

    Note: I do not listen to taped Kol Isha.

    What Rov told you you can’t listen to taped?

    Go back & ask him your question.

    If you didn’t ask anyone the first time, then go ask.

    #723275

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Shev143-

    Blueprints thought that it might be a good idea to have religious standards like the Taliban or Iranians.

    Excuse my tone, but that is just a really bad argument. You could make the same point about kosher meat. You can’t disprove a religion by saying it’s hard to keep. If you want to prove that he’s wrong you’re going to have to back yourself up with a real argument, like, maybe try to prove from the Torah itself that he’s wrong. Otherwise your comments sound either really narrow-minded, or they preclude the premise that the Torah as is defined by the general consensus of Orthodox Jewry is true.

    #723276

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Similar question: Must an avel immediately leave a store if they play music?

    The Wolf

    #723277

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Cedarhurst,

    Would it be feasible for you to bring headphones with you into the store and listen to your own music while shopping (thus rendering yourself unable to hear the store’s music)?

    #723278

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Cedarhurst, I think this is more than just about the Kol Isha.

    When you leave your house, you know you are going to be confronted with issues that don’t occur within your house. You are going to be exposed to improperly dressed women and kol isha and signs you wouldn’t want to see.

    The question becomes how far you go to avoid these things? Do you only shop in Jewish stores? Do you only leave your house at night to minimize your views on the streets? Do you order everything online for delivery?

    That is more of a hashkafic issue to discuss with your Rav than a pure halachic one I would think.

    #723279

    blueprints
    Participant

    thank you yitaywingnut

    shev143: can you not live your own life

    it’s one thing to get heated about someone not performing acc to halacha (which I doubt has ever crossed your mind)

    but to be annoyed about someone trying his best to serve his creator is unforgivable! it’s a bizoyon to yidishkeit! you need to do a cheshbon hanefesh!

    go stick your nose (and other leytzonus) off from this website of yiray shomayim who appreciate the chumros of others [even if we don’t keep them ourselves]

    and tzippi+feif un: maybe you should cool off a little too

    there is nothing wrong with trying your best to be a good jew there IS something wrong with doing your best efforts to stop that

    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    #723280

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Cedarhurst-

    The gemara in Shabbos (30b) says that with regard to Torah we apply the next verse; ???? ???? ??????. Rashi explains why Rabban Gamliel held this way in practice – ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ?????.

    #723283

    Are the fools who yelled go ask your LOR going to yell at The Wolf for asking an identical question above?

    Or, perhaps, as yitayningwut pointed out while the OP’s question made you feel uncomfortable with the halacha, The Wolf’s did not? Hmm…

    #723285

    RuffRuff
    Member

    Wolf, I believe he doesn’t. He didn’t do anything to listen to music, and there is no Chiyuv to run away from music. On the other hand, the OP is asking whether hearing a Kol Isha even by chance is a problem. As for that, I think that it falls under the category of Leka Darka Achrina, since he is in that store for other reasons and didn’t choose to specificaly go to the area that the singing can be heard.

    #723286

    jewish source
    Participant

    Wolf Its totally two opposite questions

    The Halacha is,By Aveilus like the lenient view , verses the question at hand , maybe A person that could come to improper thought might have to leave the premises If we hold that through a recording there would be KI

    #723287

    Aishes Chayil
    Participant

    Wolf,

    Even if your in a taxi wher the music is on. He’s not michuyov to close the music even if you ask him. He is listening for himself.

    #723288

    tzippi
    Member

    My apologies. I was being quite serious.

    Let me rephrase what someone else said if that wasn’t gentle enough: if this is a halachic inyan, CYLOR.

    #723289

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Even if your in a taxi wher the music is on. He’s not michuyov to close the music even if you ask him. He is listening for himself.

    Of course he’s not required to turn off the radio for you. But that wasn’t the question. The question in this case would be, if he won’t, is the Avel required to leave the taxi immediately.

    The Wolf

    #723290

    blueprints
    Participant

    What does OP stand for?

    #723291

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The Halacha is,By Aveilus like the lenient view , verses the question at hand , maybe A person that could come to improper thought might have to leave the premises If we hold that through a recording there would be KI

    Is it? Do you have a source for that?

    The Wolf

    #723292

    msseeker
    Member

    Wow, something has changed in the CR. Way to go, guys. Get rid of the leitzim. Let them go to one of the so-called “Orthodox” frum-bashing sites (I’m sure there are plenty around) and keep our discussions intelligent and informative.

    #723293

    RuffRuff
    Member

    Sac and others,

    Mitzvos, and especially Aveiros, are not reserved for the elite. There is no “getting to that level”. Perhaps you thought that Kol Isha was a Chumra or Inyan. That’s understandable, but please realize that it is a Halacha just like covering the hair.

    #723294

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Are the fools who yelled go ask your LOR going to yell at The Wolf for asking an identical question above?

    OK, I’ll make you happy…

    Wolf, go ask your LOR!! 🙂

    The Wolf

    #723295

    blueprints
    Participant

    What does OP stand for?

    #723296

    blueprints
    Participant

    Sacrilege: you may well be right

    But there’s no excuse for leytzonus

    just ignore the entire thread if you think the poster’s being foolish and looking for an argument

    #723297

    blue: Opening Post (or opening poster) i.e. the first post of the thread.

    #723298

    op=original poster

    im very close to being certain that you do not have to leave the store for recorded kol isha, even an aval. if there was live singing, im not sure

    we all know ask your LOR. everyone knows this

    nevertheless Halachic questions and discussions are very appropriate here.

    #723299

    not I
    Member

    The same halacha applies during the sefira or three weeks. if the music was not turned on for your enjoyment you may keep listening..

    Everyone knows when they go to shoprite they will hear the music. If you forgot that chances are you will forget what you came to buy as well.

    Make the decision b4 you go! Or as suggested CYLOR

    #723300

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    If you forgot that chances are you will forget what you came to buy as well.

    Or if you already have a shopping cart (I think New Yorkers call this a wagon:-) filled with frozen groceries and bagged produce, would it be right to just abandon it in the middle of the store?

    This is a half-serious question.

    #723301

    Jose
    Member

    Wolf,

    I don’t see how the two cases are at all the same. By aveilus there would be an issur to proactively listen to music (For enjoyment). In a taxi or store you are not “listening ” to music although you may hear it.

    If this is a case of KI ervah, the issur would not be to listen, it would be to hear.

    To make it a little easier to understand, imagine if it were a naked individual, you would consider what you see ervah regardless if you went to look or it was there and you were seeing it, both would be ossur. (Depends on whether a recording of kol isha is ervah, but if it is, then there is a very clear difference from aveilus)

    #723302

    RuffRuff
    Member

    Wolf,

    The Gemara says that in Aveilus we go after the least stringent view. Also, I recently learned a Tosafos that said that when it comes to Aveilus we rely on a logic that we don’t hold of otherwise.

    #723303

    The Gemara says that in Aveilus we go after the least stringent view.

    Many people like to extend that principle to all areas of halacha. And when they can’t find one, you’ll often find newly minted least stringent views.

    #723304

    TMB

    i do believe that in the case of aveilus there are many True Talmidai Chochomim, not scholars, who hold like that, or at least rely upon in if there is a reason.

    #723305

    Mod-80: For aveilus I think you are absolutely correct. Like RuffRuff pointed out, there is a specific Gemorah telling us to be meikel.

    That gemorah also demonstrates you cannot be meikel in all areas, as you needed the special gemorah to tell us to be meikel in a specific area of halacha.

    #723306

    yes

    #723307

    RuffRuff
    Member

    Just to clear one point: The main difference between live singing and a recording is the fact that you don’t know the person and don’t see them. According to the Gemara in Sota that says that there is no Taava to anyone not alive, perhaps a bigger Hetter would be to listen to old recordings.

    #723309

    bombmaniac
    Participant

    the issue of kol isha is that maybe it will give you hirhurim when you hear it…but there are those who hold that this only applies of you know what the woman looks like, and if it’s live. according to what you said its not an issue…plus when you go to the supermarket you arent going for the kol isha youre going for teh sale on cheese…

    #723310

    Cedarhurst
    Member

    Actually it was the blueberries… but like I said, the question pertains to one who cannot listen to recorded kol isha (which I think, in any event, is what a majority of frum people go by.)

    #723311

    blueprints
    Participant

    yep that’s the correct shita [wether or not it’s live]

    but I’m a little skeptical that a supermarket is a problem I’m sure as people have said that it’s hearing not listening so muttar

    #723312

    In the sefer Avenei Yashpei, it says that if a bus driver plays music with a female singer, it’s best (I’m not sure if he says that it’s a must) to ask him to turn it off. I think that by law he is required to turn it down so that only he can hear it if passengers request that.

    #723313

    blueprints
    Participant

    Hah!

    In Britain it’s unheard of for a bus driver to play music (I doubt there is even a capability)

    #723314

    tzippi
    Member

    My apologies, I actually haven’t checked in in 8 hours. But yes, if and when it’s nogeiah l’maaseh, hopefully not for a very long time, Wolf should ask a rav.

    Or he could extrapolate from what I was told some time ago when in aveilus: when I rode Jewish transport (on a longish trip) I was told I did not have to tell anyone I was in aveilus and to turn off the music. (In fact, it would not be fair to the tzibbur were I to inform them I was in aveilus.)

    #723315

    Sam l Am
    Member

    The OP asks a good shaila. Once you have that recorded Kol Isha is issur erva, and the issur is hearing it at all (not necessarily limited to intentionally listening to it) – just like seeing a naked person is an issur even if you didn’t come to the place to see that person – then what heter, if any, is there to remain in a place that is playing a singing woman?

    #723316

    kapusta
    Participant

    the issue of kol isha is that maybe it will give you hirhurim when you hear it…but there are those who hold that this only applies of you know what the woman looks like, and if it’s live. according to what you said its not an issue…plus when you go to the supermarket you arent going for the kol isha youre going for teh sale on cheese…

    Now lets do the Jewish understanding of this. I would say its pretty uncommon (if it ever happens) for a frum store to have music with a female singer playing. So lets assume someone is going into a major chain supermarket. But, most non-Jewish stores wont have chalav Yisroel cheese on sale. The real question here is why hes eating chalav stam cheese.

    😉

    *kapusta*

    #723317

    Sam l Am
    Member

    Again, once you accept that even recorded Kol Isha is erva, how is it any different to guy into s supermarket or anywhere that has Kol Isha than to go into a supermarket or anywhere that has an undressed woman? Even if it wasn’t your intention to hear or see the Kol Isha or undressed woman, it is still forbidden to hear or see (respectively) the erva.

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