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I wonder why whenever I enter a Nusach Ashkenaz shul there always seems to be a selection of Nusach Sefard siddurim if anyone is of that persuasion, however in many Nusach Sefard minyanim (especially a Chassidishe Shtieble) there are no Ashkenaz Siddurim to be found. A little condieration for a guest would seem to be in order.
the Sefardi Shul i often daven in has a large number of Ashkenazi Siddurim
Sorry FG you are going in the wrong direction with this one not a very nice implication.
I daven nusach Ashkenaz. I often find myself davening in a nusach Sefard shul. While I consider it nice if there is a NA siddur handy, the bottom line is that, as a guest in the shul, they do not have to have my particular nussach siddur on hand to accommodate me.
In short, if you aren’t going to daven the nusach of the shul, bring your own siddur. Don’t complain that they don’t have your nusach.
The Wolf
The Arizal stated that his nussach can be used by all of Klal Yisroel.
The Ashkenazi Poskim generally state that one should follow his own minhaggim.
The Chasidishe shul I daven in in Queens has a nice size of nusach ashkenaz siddurim and when Im in Flatbush by my in-laws I daven by R Sherer’s shul and they do too
and Mod 80,
I been to Sefardi Shuls where I can’t find an ashkenaz or sfard so I have to daven from my Smartphone
how can you make such a generalization.
there are some that do have both types of siddurim, and there are some that do not have.
just like in a YI shul I davened in that I couldn’t find any nusach Sfard siddurim
Bezalel: Rav Moshe, one of the biggest Ashkenazi posek, says that they should change to Ashkenaz.
Shein: He said they could, not should.
I’m not refering to instances where someone joins a community that has different minhagim than his own (or previous community). I’m talking about when someone is davening with a different community as a guest or on a temporary basis without being a member of it.
First of all, any shul I ever davened in, has both Nusach Sfard and Nusach Ashkenaz. Some even had different flavors of Sfardi. Second, as a part of the tzibur, the individual should follow the nusach of the shul. I bring my own during the week and for the parts said out loud I follow the tzibur.
;
Consider buying a few siddurim of your nusach and giving them as a donation to the shul where you find yourself daavening.
I once had a Rebbe who was a student of R’ Aharon Kotler. He told us the following story which he witnessed:
Some bochurim (including my Rebbe) were traveling with R’ Aharon to a simcha. On the way, they stopped at a nearby shul to daven mincha. The shul davened nusach sfard. R’ Aharon asked if he could daven for the amud, and they said yes. He walked up, and davened nusach Ashkenaz.
Afterward, one of his students asked him why he did this, if the minhag hamakom was to daven sfard. He replied, “Minhag hamakom is proper at times, but this is the proper nusach!”
That “story” is a bubbe maisa.
Obaminator: If the mods here will allow it, I can even tell you the name of the person who told it to me. He learned in Lakewood under R’ Aharon Kotler, and was there when the story happened.
Let me know so I can call and check the veracity. Awaiting.
it is difficult to imagine R’ Kotler doing this.
even if he held he could not Daven Nusach Sefard because it is stam incorrect. i cant see him asking for the amud knowing he would then denigrate an entire Kehillah, even if he had Yahrtzeit.
its difficult to imagine
The person’s name is Rabbi Marder (I think I spelled it right) from Brooklyn. I believe that after teaching in the morning, he learned in a kollel in R’ Scheinerman’s shul on Ave P. He told me the story, and said he witnessed it himself.
If we want to get technical about the Minhag of the Klall ruling, the fact is, that America is technically a Sephardishe Medina – as in Sephardi from Sepharad, Spain, not Nusach Sfard. After all, the Spanish and Portuguese came first (some via The Netherlands).
How is that food for thought?
Nechomah: “Consider buying a few siddurim of your nusach and giving them as a donation to the shul where you find yourself daavening.”
+1
git gezugt!
shein
Rav Moshe, one of the biggest Ashkenazi posek, says that they should change to Ashkenaz.
If your going to quote Rav Moshe, do so correctly. Don’t be part of the 90% of people who say things in his name which is either untrue or skewed.
What Rav Moshe said was that if you daven Nusach Sefard you can permanently change to Nusach Ashkenaz. However if you daven Nusach Ashkenaz it is assur to permanently switch to Nusach Sefard.
A Heimishe Mom: That’s a bit silly. Just because the first Jews on this continent were Sephardim that makes the whole continent a Makom where the Minhag is Sephardi? I once heard a Rabbi say that any new community in Israel has to have Sephardi Minhagim because the oldest community in the country is Sephardi so the Minhag Hamakom is Sephadi. It’s silly. One are can’t determine the Minhag Hamakom for an entire country or continent. Each community has the right to establish (or bring) its own Minhagim.
It always bothered me that people Daven only their Nusach. If you are in a Ashkenaz Shul. Daven Ashkenaz. If you are in a Sefard Shul. Daven Sefard. Don’t be different than the Tzibbur.
Sam2: Not necessarily. If there is a real established community, with one recognized Rav, you are not allowed to go in and start another group with its own minhagim – you are transgressing Al Tisgodedu, which is a d’Oraysa. A friend of mine lives in Elizabeth, and he told me that there, everyone must follow the minhagim of the community, led by R’ Teitz, because of this.
justsmile
the Halachah is to daven your own Nusach for the silent Shemoneh Esrei
if that bothers you, speak to someone about it
It isn’t silly. It just isn’t the way things panned out is all. When a yachid joins an established community he should take on himself the minhag hamakom. The first non-Sephardi Jews in America were yechidim who came to a Sephardic community.
Feif Un: I agree. But would the Minhagim of Elizabeth bind a new community in California? “America” is not one community. You cannot call all the individuals coming to America since the 1500s as coming to the established Sephardi community of “America”.
Rav Moshe held that if you Daven in a Bais Medrash who’s nusach differ’s then you own, you can daven with your own nusach. The only thing that you must say in tandem with the rest of the minyan is the Kedusha in Chazoras Ha’shatz.
I daven ashkenaz but the shul I daven at is Lubavitch so you are lucky if you can find anything but nussach ari. I only daven shachris there so I always have a siddur with me. Very often I find that when I’m at a sefard shul they don’t have any ashkenaz siddurim yet the place I daven mincha maariv is ashkenaz and there are plenty of sfard, sfradi, and lubavitch siddurim.
The Frumguy – You should have brought it up at the roundtable discussions, I’m sure you would have lit up the place by introducing this rare-discussed pressing topic that is troubling today’s yiddisheh society!!!
🙂
funny enough, i daven ashkenaz and, as per halacha, say kedusha nusach sfard when davening with them. i find that chassidim usually say their own nussach when in ashkenazi shuls. do they have a psak of their own?
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