Letter about sheitels

Men don’t know women and women don’t know men. That’s why there are all these assumptions and theories. Fact one: there is no love and nothing that is connecting women and men now. That’s why You have such a movement like yotzim besheela. Because You lack comfort and mercy.
Fact two: its called shma Israel. LISTEN to your wife. Like G-d said to Abraham. Nekuda.

Avrum. You seem to be using the pasuk any way you want. It was an _action_ that was done by sotah to embarras the woman. Saying now woman have to cover their hair because a pasuk says something not exactly outright sounds exactly like your using the words to serve an agenda. I can also chop up any sentence and take one word or one letter and make it fit to whatever belief system I have. Talk about making anything serve your own purposes lol. Who’s doing that me or you. I like to read things _in context_ and live in reality. Hi

Ujm so?

Emesdik even if a married woman is supposed to do this and sapposed to do that your opinion makes sense I’m not negating that but. I think your just projecting your anger at yourself into them. Chill. Thoughts are not action. Second the yester hara problem is more to do with the fact that monogamy isn’t a mans nature. Maybe ask your rav if you can take another wife cuz otherwise it will lead to sin

Ujm so put blinders on when you go out then and don’t be human

Ellie7:
You wrote:
“The vibe of the whole letter is placing men’s issues squarely on women’s shoulders. You’re turning women into the bad guy and framing men as poor, innocent bystanders.”

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. It’s not “good (men) vs. bad (women)”. It’s that some women are doing something improper, regardless of whether or not they realize that it is improper.

“The way you describe the first type of man, especially-‘The Struggling but Sincere’-made me cringe. Why don’t you think that most women-even in the long, lace sheitals aren’t struggling but sincere? Why do you assume they aren’t trying their best? Why are you viewing them as an evil entity out to get men?”

Again, he’s not criticizing those women as “bad” and “out to get men”; the women, too, could certainly be “struggling but sincere” and “trying their best”. But, again, he’s raising awareness that those women may not realize that what they are doing is problematic.

“You can’t blame women for men’s issues. Yes, perhaps in an asifa for women this can be emphasized-without placing responsibility for men on their shoulders. No one bears responsibility for another’s actions. Period.”

I’m curious from which rabbi or BY school you learned that “hashkafa”. There is actually a straight-out mitzva in the Torah of “Lo saamod al dam raiecha”. According to your “hashkafa”, if you see someone at risk of drowning and you are able to help but choose not to save them from drowning, then that’s perfectly fine. But the Torah says otherwise. In fact, ironically for this discussion, if a man doesn’t save a woman at risk of drowning, then he is called a chassid shoteh.

There is also “lifnei iver lo sitain michshol”. Etc.

So, I think this is the crux of your issue. You are claiming that, as a woman, you are entitled to wear any sheitel you want (and you noted that you do wear a sheitel that is more tzanua than some out there) and not be considered wrong for doing so. Even if secular “culture” implies that, liHavdil, the Torah very much disagrees. So, yes, women do need to be aware of what they are doing and the effect of that on men (and other women, too, like being machshil them via peer pressure or negatively affecting their marriages, etc.).

Please try harder to view this from the Torah’s perspective. That should help with the anger you feel about this issue.

none2.0,

“You seem to be using the pasuk any way you want.”

Absolutely not! I only interpret it that way because we have a tradition brought down and codified in the gemara. I’m not going to deviate from that.

“It was an _action_ that was done by sotah to embarras the woman.”

And where in the pasuk does it say it was done davka to embarrass the woman? That’s not a plain reading either, it’s an interpretation. And where does this interpretation come from? The same place mine did! So the interesting question is why do you take chazal’s interpretation for the reason her hair is uncovered as an axiom, but reject everything else chazal say about it?

“I can also chop up any sentence and take one word or one letter and make it fit to whatever belief system I have. Talk about making anything serve your own purposes lol.”

No you can’t. The rules for interpretation come from our tradition and have strict parameters. For example, a gezeira shava is a way to derive a halacha for one case based on similar or identical words used in a separate, seemingly unrelated case. But we can’t just make up our own gezeira shava. It’s only valid if it has a mesora.

The rules come from tradition blah blah. Do you think for yourself. And who made those rules to apply to everyone. I still have a brain and my own thoughts. do you have yours?

none2.0,

“The rules come from tradition blah blah. Do you think for yourself.”

Yup.

“And who made those rules to apply to everyone.”

Hashem your G-d and the King of the Universe, who happens to not be what you see in the mirror.

*hair

none2.0,

“You have no idea how liberal your way of thinking sounds. Let’s use for example liberal speak. They use the words “red herring” they say there’s a “specific way” to interpret certain things that if someone is doing XYZ even if it makes perfect sense they are just using a straw man…..you don’t see the pattern your using”

This whole section makes no sense. What are you trying to say? Just a bunch or random stuff you think will bother me?

“What about reading the plain text and understanding it in context.”

That’s the very first step of learning. And based on your prior posts, you’re not capable of it.

“I’m ok with everyone’s interactions but I have my own too.”

You mean interpretations, and no, you are obviously not ok with everyone’s. Otherwise you wouldn’t be trying to insult me by saying I can’t think for myself, or whatever weird stuff you wrote above.

“And how do we know who’s is the truth. Not which authority tells me “how” to interpret things but whatever is of sound mind. Does that make sense. Thanks”

Yeah it makes sense inasmuch as I know what you’re trying to say, but it is stupid. You wrote somewhere that you’re not advocating for moral relativism, but your contention here is the textbook definition of moral relativism.

none2.0,

“ופרע את ראש האישה can roughly translate to loosen or uncover her [*hair]. You need an authority figure to tell you how your allowed to translate something….sounds like manipulation to me “

ראש means head.

Avram how do you know if the meforshim didn’t say it and codify it for you. Who gives you the authority to translate that word for yourself ?

thats the thing avram I believe Hashem ever asks anyone to fallow authority blindly. Because He never designed us that way. It’s not healthy it’s not natural and it’s also dangerous, I bet if the rabanim told you to unalive someone ( well in _that_ situation you’ll suddenly start thinking for yourself, of course cuz that goes against sanity) but, if they somehow found a way to justify unaliving someone using all the lovely manipulations of interpretation and using some pasuk in the Torah to do so, would you still listen to them

G-d did not tell you you can’t use your own brain your misconstruing what a human being said a few thousand years ago to what G-d wrote and told Moshe at har Sinai

Throughout history the wig was always used as a hair replacement to enhance and beautify one’s appearance. Originating in ancient Egypt until today wigs were worn to display status and wealth, to make a fashion statement, and to transform one’s looks. They were used as hair replacements NOT head coverings worn for religious reasons.

Interesting historical facts about wigs (which demonstrate how they were never used as a modest head covering and should not be today):

– Wigs first originated in ancient Egypt (Mitzraim).
– Egyptian men and women shaved their heads bald (because of the high heat and the infestation of lice) and replaced their natural hair with wigs.
– The Egyptians invented the concept of a wig so they could have the look of hair and experiment with different hair styles (as opposed to using a cloth
head covering).
– Wigs became a status symbol. The wealthier Egyptians wore wigs made out of human hair, the lower classes wore wigs made out of animal and
vegetable fiber.
– Wigs were used for fashion and beauty and many times were decorated with braids, curls, plaits, and all sorts of ornaments.
– Both wig making specialists and barbers made the wigs and wig making was considered to be a respectable profession in ancient Egypt. It was one of
the jobs available to women (like the modern day sheitel macher…).
– Wigs were scented with fragrant oils and petals or pieces of wood chips such as cinnamon.
– When wigs were not used, they were kept in special boxes on a stand or in special chests.
– Wig boxes were found in tombs and the remnants of ancient wig factories have been located.
– The Egyptians were buried with their wigs because they wanted to appear with beautiful hair in the afterlife.
– Some of the most famous Egyptian queens were well known for their great beauty (ex: Cleopatra) partly because of their impressive wigs.
– Wigs were also worn in ancient times in Mesopotamia, Crete, Greece, and Persia.
– Wigs fell out of fashion and then reappeared in England and France in the 17th century when wigs were worn by men and women (particularly the
nobility) for status, fashion, and beauty.
– Today, wigs of all lengths and styles are worn by many celebrities (actresses, singers, models etc…) and they have become a symbol of
glamour and fashion. They are the ultimate beauty accessory.

The Jews in ancient Egypt did not copy the dress and hairstyles of the Egyptians and that is one of the reasons why we were redeemed… yet here we are today wearing wigs for “modesty”, the very item that the Egyptians invented for pritzus, and an even nicer and more natural version than they wore! The wigs are angering Hashem and causing the shechina to leave our midst, it is certainly an area that women should be focusing on improving to help us merit a yeshuah from this long and difficult Galus.

None2.0:
No fear mongering was posted- maybe reread the posts.
Just educational info and some interesting historical facts, anyone who thinks can recognize that the current wigs are illogical and immodest.

Illogical and immodest. But that’s your viewpoint whether your wrong or right you cannot change the tide or choices of someone else. I definitely see your point but what will you do. Become the police. Maybe you and your wife shouldn’t do that and that’s it

The reason also that people find “loopholes” and then do whatever they want is because these things are not real. As in they are not morality or something that actually matters on a deep internal conscience level. Which means that the only way to get an entire population to force themselves to conform to it is through fear. And that’s all people are rebbeling and saying too bad. This is me

none: You beliebe in none of the Torah? If the Torah tells us what not to do (or what to do), as explained by our Rabbonim, that is an obligation you must follow.

The Torah doesn’t just say what not to do. It speaks of what happens to you when you transgress a moral sin. The repercussions of a lifestyle without morality it also says don’t add to my word. Who gave the rabbanim uthority to add to morality and add things that weren’t even written in the plain text. I can also, if I had some agenda, find any explanation for what I believe in by picking random things out of words that were there to. Especially if I convinced people instead of looking at the entire message to miss the firost for the trees

Therefore in real life nobody can force you to anything your only doing it cuz you agree with it that means you have free will even when you think you have to. You don’t have to do anything. Ever it’s up to you to find the truth and to figure out what makes sense not because morality is relative but because we were already driving endowed with some level of discernment. Regardless the whole shaital thing is very nice but again it’s not moral. It’s simply a rule put out by someone who took the letter of the law to some stringent degree and then forced everyone to do something based off a very vague sentence in the Torah. Regardless of how it came to be and whatever it is what I’m saying is that because it’s not a moral thing and our conscience is not activated about it. We naturally act out of rebbelion towards it because it isn’t something we truly believe deep down is moral. Real life and living in real life it’s more about moral right and wrong then religion and people only have energy for one. Not everything else .

After ruminating on this topic for several weeks, I had the opportunity to ask a prominent Rav/Posek about the content of the letter. The answer that I received was that the length and presentation of a shaitel is definitely worth analyzing, but, if a shaitel conforms to the general tznius guidelines in a particular community, it is generally unquestionably mutar. (This Rav was answering me. In my community, most don’t wear ultra long shaitels.) “In general, it’s advisable not to rely on kol koreis presented to the public. They do not qualify as psak halacha. When in doubt, ask a shailah.” He also mentioned that when one sees individuals take on stringencies that don’t reflect in the rest of their avodas hashem we are to be choshed that there is something not kosher going on under the surface and to stay far away.

This is not to say that women shouldn’t work on being more tznius in general – and it’s smart for us to question what we can do to improve ourselves on a regular basis. However, we need to remember that turning to extremes to solve problems is not the Torah way.