Married Women Learning Daf Yomi?

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  • #604392

    I am a married woman who has been learning Daf Yomi for the last 10 years (thank you Art Scroll). I find it gives me a common source of conversation with my husband who learns full-time. We always shmooz and pilpul in the same sugya. I get to see his yediya in Roshonim and Achronim and poskim as they relate to the sugya.

    Such conversations are far more enriching then simply shmoozing about the parsha!

    It also makes me feel better that I did not cause “battala” for my husband because our time spent talking wasn’t wasted and was spent “v’dibarta bom” speaking in learning.

    My husband says that he wants me to be his chavrusa in the Yeshiva Shel Ma’alah – what a great compliment!!! I tell him that in the Yeshiva Shel Ma’alah, he will be my Rosh Yeshiva!! This has enriched our sholom bayis and fortified our home into one of Torah.

    How do others feel about married women learning Daf Yomi for this purpose and have others “discovered” this amazing “mehalech”?

    #1028116

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    How do others feel about married women learning Daf Yomi for this purpose and have others “discovered” this amazing “mehalech”?

    You’ll find some here that say that it’s wonderful and others that say it’s absolutely forbidden.

    Personally, I knew a woman who made a siyum on Shas three times in her life. She was one of the smartest people I knew in life.

    The Wolf

    #1028117

    BTW – in the beginning, learning Daf Yomi was VERY hard. You know, the crying babies, shopping and making supper was a distraction, but as I continued, and it became addictive. It is now part of my daily routine. L’havdil, just as I have time to shower, I also have time for the Daf!

    B’H I was zoycha to finish shas and I now learn the Daf with Tosfos!

    My husband has more appreciation when I finish a mesechta than the fanciest cake or gourmet meal (which I make for our siyumim).

    #1028118

    choppy
    Participant

    Jewish Law, as codified in Shulchan Aruch and all the other codes, prohibit the teaching of Oral Law (most notably Talmud) to girls and women.

    #1028119

    shlishi
    Member

    Did you “learn” what happened to Bruria?

    #1028120

    2scents
    Participant

    did PBA change his screen Name to Goldenpupik?!

    #1028121

    Sam2
    Participant

    Choppy and Shlishi: The Drishah is a tremendous Amud to be Somech on, and certainly for someone who is literally teaching herself. You don’t have to let your wife do it, but to say that it is Assur is misleading.

    #1028122

    Curiosity
    Participant

    I don’t think we publicize such a thing, even if you do learn for the right reasons (shalom bayis, not battelling your husband, etc). It’s just not traditional in the orthodox world to do this and we are very cautious of it becoming a trend and having women learning for the wrong reasons, like femenism, “equality”, “proving” themselves, or seeking recognition. These reasons are very much in line with Reform Judaism, and that’s why, especially today, we seek to distance ourselves from that slippery slope. I suggest that if you do do it, (obviously with a heter from a reliable posek) that you are not mefarsem it to your friends and family. But this is just my personal take on it.

    #1028123

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Jewish Law, as codified in Shulchan Aruch and all the other codes, prohibit the teaching of Oral Law (most notably Talmud) to girls and women.

    No one taught it to her, she self-taught (or learned it on her own). Therefore, no Tiflus was taught.

    #1028124

    WIY
    Member

    Troll

    #1028125

    apushatayid
    Participant

    All we need is a bridge and three billy goats gruff.

    #1028126

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    troll

    #1028127

    To clarify, I don’t learn the Daf for any Feminist or MO c’v reason, but simply to have a “shprach” with my husband.

    He is a true ben Torah and couldn’t care less about the sale in Macy’s or other things that we women love to chat about, however, he loves to shmooz in learning.

    This enhances our sholom bayis and makes him appreciate me more – that should take it outside of the chazal of “kol hamelamad bito Torah…tiflus”!

    Halacha is matir many things for a women to do so that her husband should find her attractive. Is this also an area that can be mutter if done l’shem shomayim?

    #1028128

    BTW – a fringe benefit is that I chazer with my boys, who are in mesivta, their gemorah, I also farher them and even help them sometimes write a shtikel Torah.

    #1028129

    Sam2
    Participant

    This could be a troll thread, but not necessarily. There are hundreds (maybe more) of women who learn Daf Yomi with their husbands, family, or by themselves.

    #1028130

    Health
    Participant

    GAW -“No one taught it to her, she self-taught (or learned it on her own). Therefore, no Tiflus was taught.”

    Your implication that the S’A would hold in such a case that it would be Mutter is wrong.

    I’m quoting Joe here from another topic, only because I didn’t want to write the whole thing over myself:

    “Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah siman 246 sif 6.

    Shulchan Orach:

    “tzivu chaza”l shelo yilmad adam es bito torah mipnei sherov hanashim ein da’atan michuvanos l’hislamed u’motzios divrei torah l’divrei havai l’phi anius da’atan, amru chaza”l kol hamilamed es bito torah k’ilu milamda tiflus”

    So from S’A it comes out the problem is for them to learn it and therefore you can’t teach it to them -“u’motzios divrei torah l’divrei havai”. So the avg. woman can’t just learn Gemmora because it will come to “Hevel” (nothingness). There are exceptions to the rule, like Bruria and that’s why the S’A says “Rov”. But who nowadays can claim that they are on such a level and can learn Torah without the possibility of it turning into “Hevel” (nothingness)?!?!

    #1028131

    golfer
    Participant

    How come i never saw Goldenp’s name before?

    Interesting.

    So, for an encore, let me tell you all how I am Anastasia, last member of the Romanov dynasty.

    Anybody here old enough to remember?

    #1028132

    Toi
    Participant

    i checked her profile before shrying troll. seems shes been a member for a while. so no troll. al kol ponim, while this may be praiseworthy if done quietly, most people on here that approve of this type of thing are the feminist kav, so making this into a campaign will quickly dteriorate into an equality shmooze.

    #1028133

    simcha613
    Participant

    Health and Choppy- why would they receive reward for doing something that is clearly assur? Can you give me another example of something that is clearly assur but the violater actually receives reward instead of punishment? If the Shulchan Aruch doesn’t want women to learn, why would the Shulchan Aruch tell us that they receive sechar for doing it (this is the first line in that halachah that Health conveniently forgot to quote)?

    #1028134

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    I don’t believe this is a woman.

    #1028135

    I think PBA was inspired by the multiple screen name thread.

    #1028136

    BIO: I am a married woman. My husband is a well know talmid chochom who learns every moment of his day. I have more than a handful of kids, a few of my boys are in Mesifta. I started learning Daf Yomi around 10 years ago. I thank Art Scroll!! For the past few years I also learn it with Tosfos (and select Maharsha). I also use the Bar Ilan Program to access all seforim and inyonim – it is AMAZING! I have been a member of the CR for many years.

    #1028137

    Hi. would anyone be interested in a daf hayomi shi’ur here in Yerusholayim for ladies? just instead of two halachois at the end, they should share two recipes!

    #1028138

    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: While I can’t say that that’s not Pashut P’shat in the M’chaber, it is against the Drisha, who at the very least is a strong enough support for anyone to rely upon (especially as we do have the “Ma’aseh Rav” of B’ruriah, Rashi’s daughters, and several other women throughout the generations of the Rishonim).

    #1028139

    golfer
    Participant

    I see Toi is expecting an “equality shmooze.” So here’s my bit for the equality shmooze if and when it comes. Interesting to note, men have a tremendous yetzer hara pushing them not to learn Torah. Women’s yetzrei hara keep busy pushing them away from doing what they are supposed to do, Torah learning not on top of the list. Aside from learning halacha lemaaseh & maybe a little mussar, probably not on the list at all. So a woman actually trying to sit down and learn the Daf every day will have greater hasmada with less effort than her husband.

    Lfum tzaara agra.

    #1028140

    pcoz
    Member

    yisrefu divrei torah ve’al yimasru le’isha!

    #1028141

    Chacham
    Participant

    golden popa

    #1028142

    Kozov
    Member

    I don’t understand how anyone would want to converse with a non-existent person.

    #1028143

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    For your information: shulchan aruch orahc chaim ,siman 47, se’if 14:”Noshim mevorchot birchas hatorah” -women have to make the brocho on the torah” says the biur halocho (in the name of the mogen avrohom); because they have to learn the halochos that pertain to them.

    The fact that women should learn their halochos means that- to some extent- they learn torah shebaal peh.

    The Shulchan aruch in joreh deah repeats the rambam’s wording. However, a number of Poskim (see the drisha,as sam2 pointed out) allow women to learn. there is no inherent issur-just an understadning that their mental ability does not empower them.(I am not entering into a feminist versus anti-feminsit debate)

    #1028144

    choppy
    Participant

    Tur (Yoreh Deah 246:15): Most women’s minds are not geared toward being taught, but if she had begun to study properly herself, not making Torah into foolishness, she is no longer like most women and she is rewarded…

    Sefer Hachasidim: One should teach his daughters practical law – not because there is a requirement for them to learn, but so that they should know the laws. Once they know the laws, there is no need for them to learn any more.

    Aruch Hashulchan: We have never taught women from a sefer, nor have we ever heard people actually do so. Rather every mother teaches her daughter well-known rules women should know.

    Torah Temimah: Girls do not have the intellectual stability and are, therefore, unable to make profound inquries with a sharp mind and appreciate the depth of the Torah. It is possible thay by using their own minds, they will transgress the Torah.

    #1028145

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    I was going to comment on this thread, but then you would think that I either learn the Daf, am a woman, both or neither. So, I’ll leave it to Rebbitzen Golden(pickanicerscreenname). If you really HAVE TO know, you’ll have to ask Mommy.

    One thing I will say, I truly merited to be a part of this most massive siyum! Thank you HaShem!!! (thank you again for turning off the water, to make it more comfortable for the attendees)

    #1028146

    Avi K
    Participant

    Rav Soloveichik allowed women to learn Gemara in our time where they have extensive secular (and often legal) education. Others disagree. As for Beruria, some say that that story was “inserted” into Rashi (it does not appear in the Gemara) and, in fact, it is very puzzling how Rabbi Meir could send a talmid to try to tempt her for several reasons. BTW, the Maharsahl says in one of his teshuvot that his grandmother was a rosh yeshiva – however, she taught bachurim from behind a mechitza.

    #1028147

    choppy
    Participant

    No one questions the fact that Rashi wrote that Bruria committed suicide.

    And the Gemora says Bruria succumbed to sin (almost – the Talmid cancelled at the last moment).

    #1028148

    interjection
    Participant

    If you’re truly learning for such holy reasons, why do you need validation?

    #1028149

    interjection
    Participant

    “Torah Temimah: Girls do not have the intellectual stability and are, therefore, unable to make profound inquries with a sharp mind and appreciate the depth of the Torah. It is possible thay by using their own minds, they will transgress the Torah.”

    Oh.

    #1028150

    choppy
    Participant

    interjection: What the Torah Temimah is saying is said as much by Rashi in the Mishna Sotah 20a where it says teaching Torah shebalpeh to women leads to tiflus, which Rashi explains means arayos (immorality). The Rambam says so too. And Shulchan Aruch paskens as such.

    #1028151

    Health
    Participant

    simcha613 -“Health and Choppy- why would they receive reward for doing something that is clearly assur? Can you give me another example of something that is clearly assur but the violater actually receives reward instead of punishment? If the Shulchan Aruch doesn’t want women to learn, why would the Shulchan Aruch tell us that they receive sechar for doing it (this is the first line in that halachah that Health conveniently forgot to quote)?”

    I already responded to your “Kashos” over there.

    See the topic called –

    “Words from an ex IDF solider for Yom HaZikaron”!

    #1028152

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“Health: While I can’t say that that’s not Pashut P’shat in the M’chaber, it is against the Drisha, who at the very least is a strong enough support for anyone to rely upon (especially as we do have the “Ma’aseh Rav” of B’ruriah, Rashi’s daughters, and several other women throughout the generations of the Rishonim).”

    I discussed this in the other topic. See the topic called –

    “Words from an ex IDF solider for Yom HaZikaron”!

    As far as being Somieach on the Drisha because I believe the S’A holds it’s Ossur – if you have a Rov that holds like him, i.e. -YU, then fine. If you are mainstream Yeshivish -you can’t just hold this way on your own -you’d need a Rov to be Somieach on.

    #1028153

    simcha613
    Participant

    Helath I already responded to your “teiretz” over there.

    See the topic called –

    “Words from an ex IDF solider for Yom HaZikaron”!

    #1028154

    Chortkov
    Participant

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    #1028155

    If the OP ain’t a troll-

    KOL HAKAVOD

    #1028156

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    To this non-existent husband I say “Al tarbeh sicha im ha’isha…”

    #1028157

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Wolf “she was one of the smartest people I knew in life”

    Hitler was a pretty smart person too…

    #1028158

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    When Sarah Schenier started Beis Yaakov there was much opposition , but eventually most of Poland accepted it. However they never really accepted it in Hungary and it really wasnt until after the war was Bais Yaakov (or similar) accepted in those communities.

    #1028159

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Hitler was a pretty smart person too…

    That, IMHO, is pretty low and beneath you. To compare any Jew who learns Torah to Hitler?

    I’m really disappointed in you -42. That was mean and uncalled for. If you wanted to argue that she was wrong, there are far better ways to do it than with a comparison to Hitler.

    I know I didn’t state it here, but this person was a major influence in my life and a large part of the reason that I am frum today. While there is no way you could have known that, I am still deeply hurt by your comment and comparison.

    Next time, please reconsider before you start throwing around the “well, so was Hitler” line.

    The Wolf

    #1028160

    2scents
    Participant

    -45,

    Although I also doubt that this is really a women, in fact I think that this is a POPA style thread.

    But you should know that your a MOD, which means that your word means a lot.

    Do not accuse unless you really know what your talking about.

    Do you know really know the gender of the OP?

    #1028162

    yungerman1
    Participant

    2scents- you read my mind!

    #1028163

    choppy
    Participant

    Wolf: 42’s point was that even if someone is smart, does not mean that what they are doing is correct or justified.

    #1028164

    2scents
    Participant

    yungerman1,

    Of course I did, how else would I know what to post?!

    #1028165

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    I don’t know who mod-42 is, but his first remark (about toeva) is even more offensive than his remark about Hitler,jemach shemo.

    I wanted to thank yekke 2 for his wonderful contribution to this discussion- a very thorough analysis.

    I knew many of the sources but I was very happy to see some later Poskim that certainly allow women to participate in learning Torah shebaal peh.

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