May 29, 2013 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #609477
Akuperma said yesterday that the Nazis, YSZ, were only a “mere annoyance” I think anyone who still takes him seriously ought to reconsider.May 29, 2013 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #957102WIYMember
Where did he say this?May 29, 2013 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #957103zahavasdadParticipantMay 30, 2013 1:12 am at 1:12 am #957104WIYMember
If you follow the discussion and what he is saying I happen to agree. Maybe I wouldn’t use those exact words. The point that he was making is that a threat to our spirituality is many many many times worse than a threat to our physical well-being. If they kill us so be it we are dead, we die physically but live forever in olam habah with Hashem. Howver if they kill us spiritually and get us to chas veshalom renounce our religion then even if we are alive its as though we were dead and such a death is eternal death.May 30, 2013 5:26 am at 5:26 am #957105
While there are differing opinions in Chazal on that point, in no way shape or form has anyone suggested “killing” anyone spiritually. You would be able to push of service to learn for 3 years, you would be able to be fully 100% shomer torah umitzvot while in Sheirut Leumi, and then return to Torah learning.
The Nazi comaparions are sickenign and disheartning. I’m sure many people here are descended from survivors, let’s not insult them or the collective Jewish past.May 30, 2013 5:30 am at 5:30 am #957106popa_bar_abbaParticipant
While there are differing opinions in Chazal on that point, in no way shape or form has anyone suggested “killing” anyone spiritually.
I don’t think it is unreasonable for someone to think that a large part of the purpose here is to change chareidi culture, and make it less fervently religious.
You might disagree, and reasonable people can disagree on this. But that side is not unreasonable.May 30, 2013 11:29 am at 11:29 am #957107
It might not be unreasonable. Comparing today’s situation to the Nazi Germany is unreasonable. And insulting.May 30, 2013 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #957108zahavasdadParticipant
Its never right to compare anyone especially a fellow jew a Nazi.
Unless you will throw people out of their house round them up, Imprison them in a ghetto , deport them to a death factory and kill them , their wives and their chidlren and creamate their remainsMay 30, 2013 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #957109SpiderJerusalemParticipant
The war is against the Haredi system and/or the Chassidic culture. We’re not going to pretend living in an 18th century ghetto while intentionally remaining poor and impoverished is a valid way of life. Haredim are not entitled to live in a similar fashion to the Leviim. The way Haredi leaders have chosen to handle this situation is nothing short of deplorable, and only strengthens our resolve to uproot your harmful, dangerous culture. Pull your own weight.May 30, 2013 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #957110
1. Pogroms happen. They have been happening for several millenia. Before that, we had problems like foreign armies hauling away most of the population. We are old hands at surviving genocide. To a “Reform” Jew who believed that the European were the greatest civilization in history, and that the Germans were the most civilized and most advanced people in the world – the holocaust was a horrible shock. To frum Jews, it’s a matter “oh, that again”. They try to kills, HaShem stops them, we survive and carry on. In a few years we recover. It’s happened before, and will probably happen again. Live with it.
2. At this point in time, if we consider how many people would be putting on tefillin this morning if nothing happened – going back to 250 years (i.e. to just prior to the start of the modern period) — the leading cause of reducing the number of Bnei Torah is not the holocaust or even pogroms in general during the period — but assimilation. In fact, most Bnei Torah in America today are the descendants of the refugees from, and survivors of the holocaust. The 90% of American Jews who roots predate that period are for the most “gone”. A handful survived, and a handful of those on the verge of being lost became Baalei Tsuvah — but almost all are lost just as much as the ten lost tribes, or the six million who died during the last world war. It’s nice that most Americans (and probably most goyim in Europe and Middle East) have some Jewish DNA (or rather, DNA inherited from Jews), but what matters are the number of people learning Torah and doing mitsvos.
Thus you shouldn’t get all bent out of shape about the Arabs (with whom we have a disupte about real estate – dinei mamonos at best), but should be panicing over Lapid. You should not place your faith in the IDF to protect you since they incapable of saving us from what threatens us, but you should be worried about the “war” be launched against the yeshivos in Eretz Yisrael, since that is our first and only line of defense against what really threatens us.May 30, 2013 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #957111Rav TuvParticipant
Thus you shouldn’t get all bent out of shape about the Arabs (with whom we have a disupte about real estate – dinei mamonos at best)
The Arabs are murdering scum. Calling it a dispute over real estate is disengenuous and insulting to the families of victims of Arab terror. Shame on you!May 30, 2013 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #957112
“musser zoger” — What do the Arabs demand? What do the Israelis demand? Territory, economic control, etc. Is either side making demands reflecting anything other than gashmius? Are we demanding they give up Islam? Are they demanding that we give up learning Torah? Look at everyone’s solutions – it’s about borders, settlements, governments, etc. – only thinks affecting the prozdor. We kill, they kill. We destroy, they destroy. That is how wars are fought. If you oppose killing and being killed after matters pertaining to this world, feel free to become hareidi, and worry about real world (as opposed to the world of sheker)May 30, 2013 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #957113ToiParticipant
always thought you were a girl.May 30, 2013 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #957114
I don’t agree with everything akuperma posted, but I wanted to point out that it is not “we” Jews who have a dispute with the Arabs over real estate, but rather it is the Zionists who idiotically insisted on having that dispute. Jews asked them to NOT do so but they went ahead and did so anyways and convinced the world to allow them to represent world Jewry during WW II and beyond.
Gedolim have written that the reason the Zionists are Zionists is to shmad, to change the Jewish faith and people from Jews to R”L Zionists. This MO still goes on today, albeit in slightly different form.May 30, 2013 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #957116
Gedolim have written that part of the reason that a “Yom HaShoah” is against the Torah is that doing so mistakenly makes the Holocaust distinct from the rest of the bitterness of galus.
Just prior to the Holocaust, in Ikvisa DiMishicha, Rav Elchonon Wasserman made (in my humble opinion) a very insightful point. The two most common idols that some Jews worshipped pre-WW II were Nationalism (i.e. Zionism) and Socialism. Thus, Hashem sent a hybrid of those two, Nationalism-Socialism, otherwise known as the Nazis, YM”Sh, as a messenger of chastisement.
Other gedolim have written that Hitler YM”Sh was a messenger of chastisement for supporting/insufficiently protesting Zionism.
This may not explain the full horrors of the Holocaust, Hashem Yishmor, but it is obviously still very significant.
Then, Zionists during WW II, frustrated the rescue efforts of Rabbi Weissmandl (see Min HaMeitzar) and committed other various forms of treachery against Jews that cost untold numbers of Jewish lives. Before WW II, the things the Zionists wrote about Jews rivaled much of what the Nazis wrote and could have been the source of some of those Nazi opinions. And during WW II, the slogan of Zionism was “Rak BiDam Tihye Lanu HaAretz”. Zionists admit to this, too, and these things can be found on pro-Zionist sites as well.
It would be wise to understand how odious is this “Rak BiDam…” before even beginning to study that painful period of galus.
May Hashem redeem us all with the coming of Moshiach BB”A.May 31, 2013 5:02 am at 5:02 am #957117E-O-MParticipant
There are not only two sides to this conflict- in fact, there are probably as many sides and opinions either way as there are people in our nation.
Any Torah loving Jew can appreciate the stubbornness of the gedolim and haredi community to not lose an ounce of learning and to protect and grow our young men.
However I think that there is a tremendous chiyuv first and foremost to promote unity at all costs among the ????? ???? ????? of our nation, and an equally important chiyuv to properly deal with the hilonim, which unfortunately is the majority. However this plays out, if THEY start to take steps over the next few years that prove the conspiracies that this is a war waged on the Torah way of life, so let them lose their ???? – the yeshivas are welcome to leave to BH many countries that will openly accept them and even provide them with benefits. Of course this would be tragic, but this is all IF it comes to that. I just think from a logical POV that the manner this is being dealt with is far more exaggerated than it has to be, thus drawing world wide negative attention on the Jews, and resulting in bittul Torah and a further division of ?? ????? for many of those (myself included) who choose to take a stance on the issue, whether proactively or mentally. I cant help but think- Nothing good can come of this. We’ve had 2000 years to try and fix ???? ????. we are living in one of the most flourishing eras in jewish history, our people are united through the mutual connection to our country BH and throughout the four corners of the world due to globalization. BH this is a great time to be a jew and love our fellow jew, and yet we still can’t come together … There is an element of ingratitude or lack of ???? ???? for those who protect our nation and this should be addressed. I also hope that the boys who choose to willingly serve and then continue learning do not become taboo in the yeshiva world. I think it’s a very high ???? to be a Torah observant soldier. This is all my (perhaps) twisted logic… What I’m confused about is that the gedolim are calling this a harsh gezeira and are deeply concerned. I am worried there’s something we are missing. Time will tell. Maybe the conspiracy theorists are dead on, maybe they’re off. Maybe they’re dead on, but are reacting improperly. Maybe not… Who knows? Only HKBH knows. Love your fellow Jew. Worry about your Torah and your kids torah. Then worry about everyone else’s torah.May 31, 2013 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #957118
I agree with hatzolajew. You can argue that the draft may be harmful, but putting git on the level of comparing it to the Holocaust is mind-boggling.
akuperma: Nice to see what kind of regard you have for Jewish lives. Are you only saying this because it was other people who were killed and not you or your family?
This is harsher than I usually write, but, for a change, I think it deserves it.May 31, 2013 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #957120Derech HaMelechMember
I think akuperma makes a very good point. Growing up in Yad VaShem’s “Never Forget” mentality makes it difficult for me to hear a comparison to the Holocaust. But the truth is that when you compare the Nazis killing Jews to the Israeli government taking Jews out of the Beis Midrash, which one sounds more like “asher karcha baderech”?
Its a hard comparison to hear, but I don’t think it should be disregarded on principle alone.May 31, 2013 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #957121Derech HaMelechMember
writersoul: That comment is entirely uncalled for. He didn’t attack you, so why are you attacking him for the valid opinion that Jewish souls are more important that Jewish bodies. Do you honestly think that anyone who cares about Jewish souls can’t also deeply care about Jewish lives?June 2, 2013 2:59 am at 2:59 am #957122
Derech HaMelech, get it through your head: It is not an inborn unalienable right of the Israeli Chareidim to stay in kollel forever on the Israeli taxpayers’money. To compare the denial of that “right” to the Shaoh is an outrage. Many of the Akuperma’s post are outrageously off!June 2, 2013 3:08 am at 3:08 am #957123WolfmanParticipant
Regarding akuperma’s comment about the demography of American Jewry. He states that 90% of Frum Jews today descend from survivors while the previous generation is gone. I am not a demographer and perhaps an expert reading this blog can chime in with statistics but I’m not sure he is correct. Although the “hashpa’ah” of the survivors led to a resurgence of Yiddishkeit and as a result we have shteiged to incredible levels, I believe that by birth, most Frum Americans descend from the old-timers. I could be wrong. Experts?June 2, 2013 3:40 am at 3:40 am #957124nfgo3Member
Re akuperma’s post that begins, “Pogroms happen.” Your cavalier notion that frum Jews have a ho-hum attitude toward the extermination of 6,000,000 fellow Jews is an insult to frum Jews. It also reflects a fundamental and egregious misunderstanding of the Torah view of Jewish life, which is that every life is precious, and no Jew is expendable. Jews and others will be struggling with the meaning of the Holocaust for many more decades – or centuries, perhaps – and I do not purport to understand Hashem’s relationship to that horrible phenomenon. Your suggestion that the Holocaust was business as usual for Hashem is too wrong to put into words.June 2, 2013 3:46 am at 3:46 am #957125
Nfgo3, Parshas Ki Savo and Bechukoysai speak of the Holocaust, but I agree that his cavalier attitude towards the Yiddishe tzoros is very wrong!June 2, 2013 3:59 am at 3:59 am #957126
EOM, achdus is nice, and sinas chinam is not (not that I believe there is necessarily sina of any kind here). But this does not justify shmad. The IDF is a cultural organ, first and foremost. It happens to also be an army.
But any step to try to get chareidim into the IDF is for the sole purpose of acculturating them to the idolatry and kefirah of Zionism. As a bonus, the giluy arayos is also included.
As for akuperma’s “cavalier” attitude, I think his point is that, contrary to Zionist theology, the Holocaust is a part of galus just like the many other tragedies before it, Hashem Yishmor.
nfgo, since you mention the Torah’s great value of Jewish lives, what is your opinion on the thousands of Jewish lives sacrificed on the altar of Zionism and the State of Israel, especially before it “protected” any Jews?June 2, 2013 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #957127
Yea, HaKatan, if one soldier gets killed in in the IDF, you and your ilk go positively crazy with anti-Zionist rhetoric. In golus, however, if Jews died in their thousands or worse, who cares much? Right?June 2, 2013 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #957128
There was discussion beforehand about getting more Chareidim into the army. Did we all forget about that? They were discussing opening positions that are more inline with our values. In fact, the number of Chareidi soldiers rose and was on the rise.
This Rasha decided to use an easy target to sit on and rise politically using his target as a cherry picker. Hayu Tzareha Larosh — not anything new.
He started with the army then went to economics and moved on to private buses. Oh, it has nothing at all to do with waging a war, although it was actually explicitly stated that the intention here is to ‘normalize’ the Chareidim. I guess, something like how Russia ‘normalized’ us.June 2, 2013 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #957129
E-O-M, does your Safek outway the Vadday of Gedolei Hador? Do you really dismiss years of toiling on the Torah, Gemara, Rishonim, Poskim, Achronim, that it leaves one as he began?
Do realize, Rav Shteinman is quite open-minded. He was pro the Nachal Chareidi. Now he is calling this a war and a Shmad.June 2, 2013 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #957130NaftushMember
Akuperma, if “everyone’s solutions [are only about] things affecting the prozdor, and if by becoming hareidi one becomes disembodied and concerned only with the “real world (as opposed to the world of sheker),” your apocalyptic visions are pure sheker. Gog-and-Magog budget battles, hareidi soldiers turning their guns on their commanders, handing Eretz Yisrael to the Turks, all the rest — they’re all totally “embodied.”June 2, 2013 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #957131Josh31Participant
Shmad is someone dressed as a Jew that keeps Torah and Mitzvos, but showing disrespect when the siren goes off on Yom HaShoah.June 2, 2013 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #957132E-O-MParticipant
“But any step to try to get chareidim into the IDF is for the sole purpose of acculturating them to the idolatry and kefirah of Zionism. As a bonus, the giluy arayos is also included.”
This is not something that can be proven right now. Sadly, i think some actually WANT to believe this- but there is no classified checklist locked in a defense ministers drawer that reads “list of ways to break frum people and turn them into secular zionists after enlistment”… Some of the conspiracy-like things being said may (hopefully) turn out to be just that- made up paranoid conspiracy theories.
Everyone knows and feels that there is more to both sides official stances on the issue, that among other things, there is an underlying agenda for the Haredim to stand strong and protect the Torah empire that has been built. And that the Hilonim have a hidden agenda of destroying religious Jewry as we know it. However, if you ignore those “unwritten/unspoken” things, and you just look at the high level facts from an outside point of view it’s just a game of politics that has to be played.::
The reality is- the haredim say they didnt want a country and dont agree with the govt, yet feel no problem learning, while living off the land, in a society that requires all of the things that a society would require- skilled professionals, laborers, doctors etc … a society that desperately requires a strong intelligence and military defense, particularly because of its close proximity to almost a billion of its worst enemies R”L. BH the country has provided funding for our yeshivas, financial and social benefits to the poor, largely including bnei torah (and the bad eggs who don’t want to learn but don’t want to work) that willingly choose a certain lifestyle. There is however, a seemingly unanimous lack of ???? ???? for all of this by the haredi. Clearly, the extreme secular are resenting the extreme religious for being on the receiving end, so they coined the term “share the burden”…
I think what the haredi side has to do, as it would have done if they were living in a gentile regime, is appease the other side, and try as hard as possible to amicably work out the best possible deal for themselves. Treat it like esav…. I don’t get why widening the gap with the promotion of resentment, and things like the demonization of secularists, and stubbornness/unwillingness to negotiate or compromise is the right way to go. I am not one to question the likes of hakham ovadia shlita, so my guess is that we’re on the brink of something much worse than is being revealed to us right now.
What we all need to do is make peace among ourselves and pray. And stop your kvetching already.June 2, 2013 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #957133
Or not eating turkey on Thanksgiving Day, Josh.June 2, 2013 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #957134About TimeParticipant
Menachem Begin for one understood (though his hatred for them was pathological), that the nazis were just another continuation of the present exile and attempted to abolish Yom HaShoah
“.. yet feel no problem learning, while living off the land, in a society that requires all of the things that a society would require- skilled professionals, laborers, doctors etc … a society that desperately requires a strong intelligence and military defense, particularly because of its close proximity to almost a billion of its worst enemies R”L. BH the country has provided funding for our yeshivas, financial and social benefits to the poor, largely including bnei torah (and the bad eggs who don’t want to learn but don’t want to work) that willingly choose a certain lifestyle. There is however, a seemingly unanimous lack of ???? ???? for all of this by the haredi. Clearly, the extreme secular are resenting the extreme religious for being on the receiving end, so they coined the term “share the burden”…
What we all need to do is make peace among ourselves and pray. And stop your kvetching already.”
Sure ” a society that desperately..”
Tell that to any senior official,you’ll get a smirk.June 2, 2013 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #957135
“but there is no classified checklist locked in a defense ministers drawer that reads “list of ways to break frum people and turn them into secular zionists after enlistment”…”
Actually the Defense Minister believes that the conscription of hareidim is a dumb idea since it will recruit many soliders who will not be helpful in defending the country (unlike the hareidi volunteers, who in fact might not continue to serve once conscription of yeshivos is put in place), and will be soldiers who will be very expensive to maintain (since married draftees, especially with children, are paid substantially more). From a military perspective, there is no “case” to be made for conscription of yeshiva students.June 2, 2013 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #957136
Derech Hamelech: My comment was entirely separate from the political issues- I was just utterly shocked at what nfgo3 called akuperma’s “cavalier attitude” toward the loss of Jewish lives. Whether this is better or worse than shmad doesn’t enter the picture (though I really don’t think that there is a straightforward answer), but comments like “pogroms happen,” “we are old hands at surviving genocide,” “to frum Jews, it’s a matter ‘oh, that again’,” and “live with it” just don’t, to put it way more mildly than it deserves, really show a lot of compassion, caring and horror when something like that happens.
As much as people (obviously) hate to admit Stalin was right, his quote about one person being a tragedy and a million being a statistic just seems to be pretty apropos. If something like this were to happen right now in Israel, would akuperma say “Oh, that again! Pogroms happen- live with it!”? I sincerely hope not.June 2, 2013 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #957137
I”If something like this were to happen right now in Israel, would akuperma say “Oh, that again! Pogroms happen- live with it!”? I sincerely hope not. “
It would be sad if the Jewish community of Eretz Yisrael, or Brooklyn, or Lakewood, was destroyed, but it would not be the end of the world. Such things will happen, have always happened, and will always happen. It is inevitable.
Remember that Stalin and his disciples, could only perceive the world of sheker, and from that perspective a murder, or a massacre, or an act of genocide is definitive. You live only for this world. We however know this world is a mere “prozdor” and nothing more. We perceive the world of emes, and realize that the problems in the prozdor are, in the final analysis, inconsequential.June 2, 2013 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #957138
The Zionists are the ones who go crazy trying futilely to defend their idolatry.
If not for Zionism and the State of Israel, there would be no IDF casualties, CH”V. And tens of thousands of Jews would not have been sacrificed on the altar of Zionism. Not to mention the shmad and all the rest.
We could debate and speculate what would have happened had Zionism never entered the world’s stage, but we know for sure that the above tragedies only happened because of Zionism.
This also has nothing to do with the tragedies of galus, CH”V, including the Holocaust.
I don’t see why that is so difficult to understand. The truth doesn’t fit in with your worldview?June 2, 2013 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #957139
Our gedolim have written that the point of Zionism is shmad, and therefore the Zionists need a State, not the other way around. And that Zionism is Avoda Zara and Religion mixed with Zionism is merely Religion and A”Z biShituf.
Zionists wanted Zionism to, CH”V, replace Judaism as the religion of the Jews.
It is clear to anyone who observes what goes on there that this still holds true today, even if the Zionists’ methods have changed since Yaldei Teheran, et al. But this is besides the point.
Once you understand what Zionism is, it is clear that pro-Zionist means pro-Shmad even if the pro-shmad part is unintentional.
The Zionist “favors” are to either further trick people into believing in Zionism as, CH”V, the new Jewish religion and/or to buy influence and votes. (Of course, the “religious parties” in their parliament do work for the welfare of their constituents). Pirkei Avos basically says as much; this is not a chiddush.
As mentioned, the “Chareidim” lived in Eretz Yisrael before the Zionists came along and started up with the Arabs against the expressed wishes of Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld and the existing Chareidi population.
As for Hakaras haTov, I’ve previously posted the example of an arsonist who sets fire to a massive building complex and, while the fire rages, then goes to get his firetruck.
Once you’ve clarified what, if any, hakaras haTov, is due this arsonist, then you can determine the same for Zionism.June 3, 2013 12:38 am at 12:38 am #957140
akuperma: You don’t seem to get the point. From the point of view of this world, death may not be definitive (though it’s not that easy to see the world to come in regular life- our perspectives are limited in this world)- but still we cry when someone dies. Why? Why isn’t there a party? After all, they’re going to a better place!
The point is that as humans, death is sad and tragic, and you are coming across as supremely unfeeling. If you were to go and visit the families of those murdered in the Mercaz HaRav attack, for example, would you say, “Oh, this is normal happens all the time- just live with it”? My point with the Stalin quote (and obviously, it kills me to use Stalin as a positive example for my point) is that if one person was murdered, you’d feel all horrible (or even if one person just passed away of natural causes, you’d mourn), but if millions of people have been killed in pogroms, it’s just like “pogroms happen all the time.” You just come across as quite shockingly insensitive, even though I’m sure that’s not the way you intend to come off.June 3, 2013 1:50 am at 1:50 am #957142nfgo3Member
HaKatan: Your question to me is a good one. I am not sure I have a good answer, but the one I do have is this: The Zionists are not in the business of killing Jews, but the Nazis were. The Zionists know that in pursuing their goal of a Jewish state, some Jews will die, but they are acting in good faith (though maybe not your faith as you interpret it), and therefore the comparison between Jewish lives lost in pursuit of Zionism is not the same as Jewish lives lost in the Nazis’ pursuit of Judenrein.June 3, 2013 3:17 am at 3:17 am #957143
HaKatan, I’m sorry to tell you that the old Brisk accusation that the sole purpose of Zionism is to shmad Yidden has nothing to do with reality.
Secondly, it is the cavalier attitude of Akuperma that revolts many here. Get it?June 3, 2013 11:19 am at 11:19 am #957144
Zionism clearly negates the value of Jewish lives that you expressed, as in “rak biDam tihye lanu haAretz” among other quotes and actions.
Zionism also has the dubious distinction of holding Nazi-like opinions about (pre-Zionist) Jews and (partly due to this) Zionism is also a force of shmad.
As we know, gadol haMachtio yoseir min haHorgo.
So, given the rightful recognition of the terrible evil of the Nazi mass murder, how is it that Zionist shmad is not regarded with at least the same horror as those murders?
Instead, Zionists of all stripes are not only seemingly apathetic to this shmad (speaking of being “cavalier” against the Torah’s values), but go further and obscenely and grotesquely graft Zionism onto, lihavdil, our holy Torah!
Where does “good faith” enter the picture when discussing secular Zionism?June 3, 2013 11:35 am at 11:35 am #957145
Here is a small sample of quotes:
Ben Gurion wrote:
“If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter…”
And Ben-Gurion wrote this blood libel, in the N.Y. Times, 4/22/1963:
“Jews are, in truth, a separate element in the midst of the peoples among whom they live; an element that cannot be completely absorbed by any nation. For this reason, no nation can calmly tolerate it in its midst.”
And on Zionism leaving Judaism behind:
“Our code must be framed to…fuse the returning tribes into a homogeneous national and cultural unit…cleansing of our lives from the trivia and dross which gathered upon us in dependence and exile…We have set up a dynamic State, bent upon creation and reform…Laws…merely a digest of experience and the lessons of the past, are useless to us. We need to…clear the path for circumstantial change.”
This is, of course, a primary function of the IDF.
Rabbi Gifter and many others bring up some of this.
Google “Jewish life is a dog’s life that evokes disgust”, which is also a Zionist quote, and see “The Zionist Illusion” in Google Books.
The Zionists don’t hide that they despise Judaism and its adherents and the Zionists have gone to extreme lengths to attempt to CH”V replace Judaism with, lihavdil, Zionism. As the Brisker Rov said, the Zionists need a State in order to shmad, not the other way around. There is plenty to read here and elsewhere that confirms this, not that he needs my confirmation.June 3, 2013 12:07 pm at 12:07 pm #957146
Also, see page ix in that book, where he quotes Ben-Gurion that “the essential purpose of Zionism is to “normalize” the Jewish condition”.
So, if the Brisker Rov is not good enough for you, there it is from, lihavdil, the horse’s mouth.
Again, the Zionists need a State in order to shmad, not that they shmad in order to have a State (which would be bad enough, of course).June 3, 2013 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #957147
HaKatan, when oso roshah spoke of normalizing the Jewish conditon he meant giving them a land and a state of their own where they’ll be safe and become like the rest of the world.
Agreed, most of the Zionists were frei– hence their views. The primary purpose of the movement was,however,to create a safe haven for Jews. Do you know how and why Hertzel decided to create the movement? Do you know why most of the support they had came from Poland and Russia? Go learn some history then we’ll talk.June 3, 2013 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #957148
The more you read, the more you see the Brisker Rov was absolutely right.
The more you observe current events, the more you see how he is still just as right.
Even in your own view about what he meant, he is still spouting kefirah, hence proving the Brisker Rov’s point.
Zionism believes that Jews need a State to be “normal” and that they need to be just like the nations and that religion had to go and the old Jew would be gone and the “new Jew” would be a Zionist, CH”V. His goal was “normalcy”, not safety. This is not within acceptable Jewish belief any way you slice it.June 4, 2013 3:04 am at 3:04 am #957149
HaKatan, did you review the history of the subject as asked? Like I said most of them were frei. A lot of them were kofrim. The Brisker claim is,however, that they started the whole movement in order to take Yidden off the derech. And that was not what happened.June 4, 2013 3:23 am at 3:23 am #957150MDGParticipant
The point of the thread is the heartless sounding comments about Jews being slaughtered. Zionism is bad, but that does not justify flippant talk.June 4, 2013 11:56 am at 11:56 am #957151
mdd, please see my post above and read (at least part of) that book and others. See “From Herzl to Rabin”, if you want another example.
The Brisker Rov stated the simple reality, as can be seen from any work on Zionism.
Let us be very clear: the purpose of Zionism was and is to redefine what is a Jew and to change, our people, in their words, from a despised Jew to a proud Hebrew. This is, of course, shmad.
Included in that happens to be the need for a State, but even that need was not for security as you falsely believe but rather for identity and culture. Zionist literature is not at all shy about this.
You are believing in Zionist mythology and missing the essential and obvious truth of the Brisker Rov which can be confirmed by simply reading the Zionists’ own writings.
Evidently, the gedolim are far more worldly than some kofrim give them credit for being. The Brisker Rov knew as plain as day what Zionism is about, yet, today, with everything available online, many “sophisticated” Jews still know almost nothing about how diametrically opposed is Zionism to, lihavdil, our holy Torah.
Again, it is plain as day that the essential purpose of Zionism is shmad (i.e. to change a Jew into, lihavdil, a “Hebrew” goy in every since of the word), far more important than anything else including a State.
You are arguing with not only the Brisker Rav, but with historical fact.June 4, 2013 1:30 pm at 1:30 pm #957152About TimeParticipant
“Let us be very clear: the purpose of Zionism was and is to redefine what is a Jew and to change, our people, in their words, from a despised Jew to a proud Hebrew. This is, of course, shmad.”
Even you are giving more credit than (many of)them deserve.
They wished to resolve the ‘judishe frage’.
The old purpose for which the jewish people represented(a supra nation which would bring the world up)and existed was unappreciated and unappealing.
They preferred the Riviera ,but felt guilty about it.June 4, 2013 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #957153yichusdikParticipant
It might do for some meilitzei hevel here to study actual history, primary sources, and base opinion on fact, rather than select, twist, or ignore facts based upon opinion – no matter how “holy” the source.
If you think the “Zionists” are intent on your spiritual destruction and replacement as their raison d’etre, you assume they have been asleep for 110 years or so, since the last ideologue who cared about your spiritual predilections wrote his last screed against you.
You who lash out at chilonim and religious zionists think way too much of yourselves. The secular don’t WANT to think about you. They would much rather be thinking about their business, or their wife or their wayward kid, or their next vacation. They don’t care what you do in your home or your beis medrash as long as it doesn’t infringe upon their rights and freedoms, and as long as you take up some simulacrum of the civic responsibilities they have been doing.
They don’t ideologically care what you study, they don’t ideologically care what you eat, they don’t ideologically care how many children you have. They do care about their civic rights and the responsibilities of all citizens. If you impinge on one and ignore the other, they will respond – at the ballot box, in the courts, and in the knesset, as you have seen. But deep down, it is pure and simple gaiva to think that Joe Secular from Cholon is more ideologically interested in destroying your spiritual life than in enhancing his own – spiritually, materially, or however he likes.
Who do you think you are you self appointed spokesmen, some characters in a Dubno Magid Moshol, giving a black and white object lesson in morality as the Magid did so well? That di andere is the devil and within the machne all are angels? That power, or the lack of it, now, in government, has NOTHING to do with the geshraai we hear from the chareidi street?
In only one way are the Zionists comparable to the Nazis. The Nazis didn’t discriminate between Orthodox and Reform, between chasidishe and litvishe, between ungarishe and galitzianer. Their plans applied to us all. The Medinah takes in all – from the Ethiopian and the Kavkazi you have written off, to the surfer dude from California you ignore, to the Baalei Tshuva from London you smile at, but whose kids you would never let marry your own.
The saddest part of this whole discussion is this. The great majority of the chareidi community does not agree with many of the fundamentalist rants of spokesmen like those here, or others we hear from. The vast majority are ohavei yisroel, are people who can see reality in front of their face, who would give the clothes off their back for their fellow Jew, even one in an IDF uniform. They visit the sick and injured, regardless of whether they are frum. They understand that economic realities will catch up with them, sooner or later. They know that halocho doesn’t demand that women sit at the back of the bus, they understand im ein kemach ein Torah, they want to live in harmony with all of their neighbors.
But they are too scared of what the implications are for their communal life, for shiduchim, for friendships, for being allowed aliyos or the omud in their shuls, for the ostracism of self appointed guardians of morality, to speak up.
What a shame.
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