August 19, 2010 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #592183
Here’s a great analogy for the shidduch scene. The game of musical chairs.
Boys are the Chairs
Girls are the participants
Segulos= hovering near a chair to make sure you are not left standing
More shadchanim = playing the music faster
At the end of the day there still aren’t enough chairs for the participants.
Any ideas on how to increase the number of chairs and/or decrease the number of participants that would thankfully put a end to the game?August 19, 2010 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #694095HelpfulMember
Can I take a totally random guess? Hmm…
Age gap???August 19, 2010 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #694096
I guess in this case sharing a chair will not work…:)August 19, 2010 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #694097SJSinNYCMember
Make sure more girls go OTD to equal out the playing field. Conversely, make sure to be mekarev more boys than girls to equal out the playing field.August 19, 2010 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #694098
I guess in this case sharing a chair will not work…:)
Truthfully, we should be looking at all options.
It is called a “green light” discussion. Nothing (that is not anti-halacha) will be disallowed.
Does anyone know the source that the Cherem of Rabbainu Gershom was only supposed to last for 1000 years?August 19, 2010 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #694099
“I guess in this case sharing a chair will not work…:)
Truthfully, we should be looking at all options.”
Gavra- im confused-do you mean to say that 2 girls should marry the same boy?August 19, 2010 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #694100SJSinNYCMember
Yes but I’m not sharing my husband.August 19, 2010 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #694101
IF the Cherem no longer applies, there is no Halachic reason not to.
And since we seem to have all these people here promoting the strict “letter of the law”, there would be no reason not to have multiple “halachic” wives.
But before we jump too far ahead, I think we want to determine the halacha at this point in time.August 19, 2010 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #694102
“But before we jump too far ahead, I think we want to determine the halacha at this point in time.”- thats a good idea.
But even if it is Halachically acceptable its not practical. Sorry gotta think of something else:(August 19, 2010 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #694104
Blinky, I think you’re on to something. I’d say bring your own chair to the game.
Meaning, don’t wait for whatever the shadchan brings you.. be proactive, find the match YOU want and then either approach the person yourself or have someone act as a shadchan (depending on your age and affiliation).
In many other areas we are VERY successfull (carrears, nice homes, talents, ect) and got there by hard work and planning. Not by just sitting back and waiting to see what comes down the pipeline. I don’t see why we should leave a choice as important as your life partner to the whim of someone else, who may or may not even be paying attention to you and what you really need.August 19, 2010 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #694106
But we cant look for boys/girls ourselves- you need other ppl for that. (also manytimes s/o that you have in mind for yourself is not what Hashem has in mind so looking for them is pointless…)August 19, 2010 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #694107
By deleting my response, you make it seem like I am actually trying to suggest polygamy is a solution (which I am not).
Just wanted to make that clear.
AZ: I think this ties in more with the (now closed) thread SJS started than you think.August 19, 2010 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #694108
Go to the other room which has all the chairs which “don’t pas”.August 19, 2010 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #694109btdaterParticipant
The herem still applies, it was renewed.
That being said, lemme get this straight, a guy dates and dates and dates, never finding a girl he clicks with. After going on countless numbers of dates he finally meets one he likes and she agrees to marry him.
They get married and he thinks he left the horrors of shidduch dating behind him, but no. He has to do it all over again.
Only this time instead of giving references for himself and his family, he has to give references for his wife and her family.
If you think people asked a lot of questions before, now youd never get them off the phoneAugust 19, 2010 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #694110
Make sure you aren’t too heavy for some of the chairs.August 19, 2010 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #694111
The shadchanim don’t supply the chairs, they just play the music.
to bad there aren’t that many chairs in that room either.August 19, 2010 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #694112
The herem still applies, it was renewed.
By who, and on what grounds?August 19, 2010 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #694113
You’re right, Blinky.. but parents can do it for them. We’re a few years away from the parsha, but when the time comes, we will spend more time tracking down parents of a girl we see at a vort or chassaneh, than trying to find out which shadchan she’s listed with. The shadchan has no qualms about approaching the parents.. why should we?August 19, 2010 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #694114SacrilegeMember
The bottom line is there is nothing you can do, after all you have done. So keeping with the analogy. After you run around, bruise ur hip and fall of the chair that someone pushes you off of, all you can do is sit on the side until the next game starts and wait till it happens all over again.
They key thing to remember is that while you are sitting on the side is not to sulk and be depressed its to daven because ultimately He is the one playing the music and stopping it.
(p.s. yes, I am single)August 19, 2010 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #694115
AZ- the chairs are there in the other room just not e/o sees it/wants to see it. These chairs are the chipped and shabby chairs but are still strong and standing straight. (meaning ppl think they are “damaged goods” and don’t want to consider them, but in reality they are very good chairs)August 19, 2010 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #694116
I’m with poppa – even though he wants me convited 🙁
There are loads of “undiscovered” gems, just waiting to be polished.
AZ – the shadchanim don’t just play the misic.. they play us too.August 19, 2010 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #694117
But HE didn’t decide on the number of chairs and participants. Perhaps he’s waiting for us to change that equation
Then no one will have to sit on the side and waitAugust 19, 2010 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #694118kapustaParticipant
Appeal to the teacher (or whoever else is in charge of the game) to bring back chairs.August 19, 2010 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #694119
BP: I don’t want you convicted, I tend to speak very strongly on these forums. Sometimes, I edit to tone it down.August 19, 2010 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #6941202qwertyParticipant
The 2 wives idea might be a good idea to insure that each family has 2 incomes. 🙂
On a serious note… i think people shouldn’t be affraid of a shidduch where the girl is older than the guy. And the only way to get rid of this stupid concept is to start teaching our kids that it’s ok if mommy is older than tatty.August 19, 2010 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #694122
The 2 wives idea might be a good idea to insure that each family has 2 incomes. 🙂
2qwerty – you realze this means 2 mother-in-laws!August 19, 2010 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #6941232qwertyParticipant
BP Totty “you realze this means 2 mother-in-laws!”
Yes that will insure that the guy actually sits in kollel the whole day.August 19, 2010 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #694124
2 wives means 2 different opinions, 2 different places to go for yom tov (which one?), and like what bP totty said 2 mothers-in-law….Im not sure its worth all the trouble:)August 19, 2010 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #694125tomim tihyeMember
I join Popa (and BPT): “Go to the other room which has all the chairs which ‘don’t pas'”.
My husband would never have been considered by most 20-year old FFB girls because he had been in Yeshiva for only 2 years at the time. I followed Popa’s advice and never regretted it for a second, B”H.August 19, 2010 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #694126tzippiMember
(You have to be middle aged for this one.) How to decrease the number of participants – Carousel for the older boys?August 19, 2010 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #694127sof davar hakol nishmaMember
some of you mentioned earlier, but it’s worth mentioning again. Many believe it’s the age gap. Think about it logically, in chassidish circles, they don’t have as bad as a shidduch crisis as the litvish world does. And by them the boys get married around the same time as the girls. About 18. (someone did once mention, that if there is a problem in the chassidish world, he thinks its because everyone is so particular to get someone from their exact chassidus… and just 30 years ago, they did “intermarry.” BTW, there was a “shidduch crisis” in the satmar community, after WWII. They asked R’ Yoel what to do, and he said, to marry sefardim. (if you ever noticed there are some vert dark chassidim)
back to the litvish world, think about it, every year a whole new “grade” of girls get out of sem and are automatically on the shidduch market. However, the boys, there’s no such thing. A boy 3-4 grades older than her, decides than that he’s ready for marriage so he has : all the girls his age, and a full 3 grades bellow them. I actually know of 2 sisters, who are 2 years apart, one married a boy a year older than her. The younger one than got engaged to a boy from the same class. (3 years older than her)August 19, 2010 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #694128
I’m with you on the age gap, but from a different angle. The reason 23-24 year old boys only considering 19 year old girls is because they cannot compete with girls their own age. They have few commercial skills, and have little ambition to aquire them.
This does not exist in the chassidishe velt, becuase they are both young and have no advanced schooling.
Solve the confidence crisis, and you solve the shidduch crisisAugust 19, 2010 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #694129apushatayidParticipant
Unfortunately, too many things go wrong in this game.
Some don’t know how to play the music, others play the wrong music. Some don’t know how to go around the chairs while others don’t understand what to do when the music stops. Some players crash the party while some can’t afford the ticket to play, while still others buy up 6 slots for themselves. Then there are the chairs. Some simply can’t hold up any of the players, while others can’t commit to allowing a player the courtesy of a seat even temporarily until the music starts up again.
To the casual viewer it looks like like a bunch of chairs going to waste while harried players go round and round looking for a seat waiting for the music to hopefully stop so they can finally grab a seat.
I’m exhaused.August 19, 2010 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #694130
az: can you think of anything other then the “age gap” myth???August 19, 2010 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #694131
I wish it was a myth but the facts say otherwise
boys get married to girls and still many many girls single (left without chairs to sit on….)
next year same game a bunch new participants and chairs but once again the cruel reality of not enough chairs for the participants.August 19, 2010 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #694132
Ok. Here’s popa’s take. While the “age gap” issue should not be minimized, there are many other issues we can also focus on.
As one wise man once told me: “For purposes of this discussion we will limit ourselves to problems which have solutions.”
There is no solution which will do very much to dent the “age gap” issue. Nobody is going to convince 20 year old girls to not go out, and it really is a bad idea for boys to go out before they are men (or guys). While making it accepted to marry an older girl (woman) is helpful, it will not nearly solve the problem. Besides, I know many older guys; there clearly are other factors involved.
So let’s work on the issues we can solve.
You don’t have to prove Fermat’s last theorem to see this.August 20, 2010 1:19 am at 1:19 am #694134SacrilegeMember
There is always going to be a “problem” if its not the “age gap” someone will think of some thing else. Do you think Hash-m didnt think of all these issues? bottom line is you have to be honest with yourself and look for whats important. If the girl didnt go to BJJ, wasnt G.O., is a size 12 instead of a 6 – THOSE are the narishkeiten that are hindering shidduchim. The fact that people focus on the wrong thing, THATS what is wrong and thats what is holding up the works, and that Hash-m has no control over because that is people’s own inane bechira.August 20, 2010 3:31 am at 3:31 am #694135
PBA: that’s where you are incorrect. there are very real solutions on the table how to add chairs or diminish the participants. Perhaps the CR with all its creative talent could come up with more effective and realistic ideas.
Hash-m didn’t make this problem WE did, and we can and should solve it. even if we eliminated all the narishkeiten in the world that still won’t add more chairs to the game or diminish the numbe of participants. All it might do is change which participants end up on chair and who get left out.August 20, 2010 4:03 am at 4:03 am #694136
az: We’ve discussed this ad nauseum in other threads and it has been conclusively demonstrated that the “age gap” is NOT a significant factor n the “shiduch crisis”. The statistics do NOT support it, the shadchanim do NOT believe it, historical research precludes it,the older singles know it is NOT the issue.
All this has been proven previously and why can’t you leave us alone.August 20, 2010 4:29 am at 4:29 am #694137mw13Participant
AZ – “there are very real solutions on the table how to add chairs or diminish the participants.”
I don’t see how adding chairs is possible, and what would be the point of “decreasing the number of participants”? The girls who wouldn’t be allowed into the game would be the ones stuck without chairs.August 20, 2010 4:52 am at 4:52 am #694138
“you don’t see” is why i posted here. perhaps there are some creative thinkers out there who can present viable solutions.
decreasing participants (though difficult to do) would mean they would enter the game at the next round after the present participants are seated up. At the time they enter, once again the number of chairs would be equal to the number of participants so long as continuously the number of entering participants don’t outnumber the entering chairs.
feel free to ignore the thread if it makes you uncomfortableAugust 20, 2010 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #694139
(completely green light)
Once a boy or girl has dated for 5 years, the parents of the children can select their Bashert, have a Bishow?, and the children (who both have been dating for 5 years) either agree or not.
Anyone who agrees gets married.
Anyone who doesn’t agree loses the right to complain about it.August 20, 2010 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #694140apushatayidParticipant
I wonder if the demands made by some of the chairs and perpetuated by the DJs who spin the music are causing some players to delay entrance into the game and others to opt out altogether. Perhaps they have taken up other games, such as charades and Life.August 20, 2010 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #694141
AZ: So you insist that there are solutions and suggest that maybe we will be brilliant enough to think of them.
Do you know a solution? Is this another “game”? Is this thread to see how smart we are? If you have an idea, this would be an appropriate time.
BP totty: Thinking of you, I rewrote much of this post.August 20, 2010 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #694142
GAW: how will that solve the problem of each year the game starts with more participants then chairs……….
you are sugggesting how to pair up the few “broken” chairs that dind’t “win” with all the extra participants. nice (green light) idea perhaps, but still isn’t makeing a dent in the root problemAugust 20, 2010 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #694143
popa: you must be new around here. AZ is absolutely obsessed with closing the “age gap” and imposing close in age shidduchim. He is convinced that this is the panacea for all shidduch related issues and will not consider any alternatives.August 20, 2010 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #694144YW Moderator-80Member
i would say hello was right on the mark. normally this can get quite frustrating, but this IS AZs thread.August 20, 2010 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #694145
As I pointed out before, what do we want our end result to be?
Do we want to create shidduchim? Dates? Complainers?
The suggestion will create shidduchim by “mopping up” those who are willing to take a chair. Then we can figure out who is playing only because their parents etc. made them play, vs. those who really want to play.August 20, 2010 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #694146
I posted this in another thread but i think it applies here. I never understood this age gap problem, because so what if boys are marrying younger girls? They are getting married- so that means their bashert was intended to be much younger then them. So that being said- it doesn’t take away any older girls chances bec. the boy was obviously not intended for them. So i don’t believe the age gap is causing problems- its the other factors which other posters posted here already.August 20, 2010 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #694147
Does one have Bechira not to marry their “bashert”, or to marry someone who is not their “bashert”?
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