new gender test

It’s widely available in Europe.

The first thing that comes to mind is the (old?) law in China that they could only have one baby, so they wanted boys. I can’t think of any good reason to know that far in advance other than rejecting a bracha from Hash-em.

it will lead to more of what the original sex tests led to all over Asia. It is not just China. There is a new book out on the topic, “Unnatural Selection: Choosing Boys Over Girls and the Consequences of a World Full of Men.” by Mara Hvistendal

Well,the only good reason for Yidden to know so early is that one could start baking for a bris. Mind you, I don’t think I would like to eat pastry that has been frozen for over 7 months.

Speaking of the Chinese “choosing” the gender of their child, is a ben-Noach halachicaly allowed to terminate a pregnancy after 6 weeks? What if a Jew lives in such a country, would they be allowed to do such a thing in order to have a boy?

girls are human too!!

Human? Yes. Jewish?

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/are-women-reallyjewish

haqer: no, according to the Rambam he is even chayav misa

Dear mommamia

I am sorry ro say that the statistics say otherwise. According to the book i mentioned above, there has been a huge increase in the number of girls who have been prevented from being born. In some coumtries in Asia, terminated pregnancies outnumber live births by over 2.5x, much of that to do with sex selection.

It is a huge problem in a world with so many huger, close problems, that we rarely have time to focus on it.

yacr85 – have you a source that abortion should only be carried out by a Yid? If it’s permitted, it’s permitted. The severity of the aveirah doesnt depend on who is doing it The only difference is the punishment when its NOT permitted .I’d have thought abortion is only muttar when the mother’s life is at risk in which case anyone should be able to carry it out?

yacr – you admit it is assur for a yid to to kill an ubar (fetus), you just say it is assur but not chayiv misa. Therefore by your own point, a yid *cannot* do it, since it is assur. (Even if it isn’t chayiv misa, it’s still assur for the yid.)

We said in a case that it is muttar!

For a Goy you are being Mattir a Chiyuv Missah and for a Yid, an Issur without a Chiyuv Missah!

Similarly, if a Melochoh has to be done on Shabbos, it is better to get a Katan to do it than a Gadol, (obviouxly in a situation that there is NO advantage using a Gadol) =No brainer.

I remember as a kid, my brother needed stitches removed on Shabbos. My father told me to bring the equipment from the Hatoloh guy’s house to ours! (Fun times, holding this box under my arm-Shinui!)

According to the book that ronrsr referenced above, “Unnatural Selection: Choosing Boys Over Girls and the Consequences of a World Full of Men.”, there seems to be 163,000,000 missing girls, due to abortion (or infanticide) in India, Pakistan, China, and other countries in that region.

They have been doing this for many years.

So it seems from the above posts that the gender is not determined until 40 days but after 40 days the vlad is no longer considered maya bi’alma so the Chinese have no choice halachicaly but to take what Hashem gave them.

It was mentioned that by goyim it is considered a chiyuv misa but by a Jew it is not. Can someone please explain the difference. I assume that the issur by goyim is murder since that is one of their 7 mitzvos. What is the issur by Jews?

hello99, you wrote “yacr: better to tell a Goy than to do it yourself.”

Were you referring to abortion or Chillul Shabbos? The former should be done by a competent physician and NOT BY YOURSELF!

Let us make that clear before there are any lawsuits!

As we said, it is better if a Goy does not do it, as for him it is a Chiyuv Missah and for a Jew there is no Chiyuv Missah.

HaQer,

I really should get the sources for these Halachos!

We do find similarly by stealing, that a Goy is Mechuyav Missah for stealing, whereas a Yid is not.

“Wow, 163 million missing girls. Talk about a shidduch crisis. “

According to the author of that book, when you have such an imbalance of boys, you get a large army and a more war-like populace (even civilian). Furthermore, women are sought out and then become commoditized, with all the negative implications thereof.

Health: actually, I am. You, however, are not.

yacr85: again, you the have failed to address issue of the doctor himself performing the abortion. Possibly, Rav Leff’s intention may have been to follow Tosafos who holds that there is no heter of pikuach nefesh for a goy. So when faced with threat to the mother’s life, it would be muttar for a Jewish doctor and assur for a non-Jewish one. However, the “bigger” and “smaller” aveira is not relevant.

I’m eagerly awaiting your “sources” to permit abortions without threat to life. I have heard Rav Dovid Morgensten relate in HaRav Elyashiv’s name otherwise. He specifically permitted “reducing” a large number of fetuses only when the number would be potentially dangerous, and even then only in the first 40 days.

and

“Whatever the grounds,abortion is generally prohibited unless the delivery of the baby poses a direct threat to the life of the mother.The most obvious case is where the mother might die as a result of the birth This category is explicitly recognized in the Mishna. See Oholot 7:6..Halacha also recognizes that a threat to life may be more than physical; psychological stress and anxiety may be life threatening to either the mother or other members of the family and where such indirect pikuach nefesh(danger to life) exists,abortion may be justified if other alternatives such as adoption are insufficient to alleviate the danger.Assume,for example,that a child was conceived through rape or incest.According to most views,that fact standing alone would not justify abortion.The fetus is still at least a potential life that ought to be brought to fruition in the absence of a threat to maternal survival.However,halacha also understands that the psychological trauma arising out of the circumstances of conception may be so devastating as to constitute such a threat at least in some cases though it may not be so in others.In short,halacha does not have an automatic or categorical rape or incest exception;any dispensation must be folded into the general rule of pikuach nefesh.”

and

“QUESTION TWO::If a baby is determined in utero to have a life threatening disease that may allow them to live only after a few months, is it permissible to terminate the pregnancy?

ANSWER TWO:.The answer in brief:,Jewish law will generally not permit abortion because of a diagnosis that the fetus suffers from a genetic condition which will result in its early death.A number of views would allow early-term abortion within 40 days of conception(a time frame that may be too early for diagnosis through amniocentesis or ultrasound)”

hello 99 -“Health: actually, I am. You, however, are not.”

You might call yourself a Poisek and you might even have Smicha. But I can’t accept this as a fact because you made a statement which was deceitful (Oiver Al Genivas Daas)!

You wrote:

“Certainly is only permitted when risk to mother’s life, and even then not always.”

When you knew good and well that Tzitz Eliezer doesn’t hold this way. If you weren’t trying to be deceitful -you should have said this is my Psak or the Psak of so and so!

The source that when an abortion needs to be performed it should be done by a female Jewish physician is the Tzitz Eliezer, Rav Eliezer Waldenberg zt”l. Rav Waldenberg was considered to be the foremost posek in Eretz Yisrael on medical-halachic issues. I cannot be sure, but it seems reasonable that Rav Leff bases his opinion on the Tzitz Eliezer.

The Tzitz Eliezer’s opinions on abortion can be found in Chelek 8, 9, 13,14 and 15. In Chelek 8 he has a long piece on the subject,in the others he discusses specific situations.

Hello99, a Daas Yachid that almost all the Poskim use (including Reb Shlomo Zalman) when they felt necessary!

hello 99 -“Stating that the Halacha follows the vast majority of the Poskim is not “deceitful”. It is not Geneivas Da’as to omit mentioning a da’as yachid among the Poskim.”

So is that what you posted -“the Halacha follows the vast majority of the Poskim” or is this what you posted -“Certainly is only permitted when risk to mother’s life, and even then not always.”?

Being that there are all types of people here -from just the original post -they will think that the Halacha is exactly from the Gemorrah and they will have no clue that there can be any dissention acc. to Halacha. For example – If s/o says you can’t eat pig no matter what unless it’s a matter of life and death. Period. Now let’s say there was s/o who held in certain times pig would be Mutter, but you made a blanket statement it is never Mutter. This is being deceitful and that is exactly what you did!

This is a public forum. You would be right if s/o came to you and asked you a Shaila privately -you wouldn’t be required to say this is my Psak or the Psak of so and so. They are asking You what you hold. Over here no one asked you -your opinion.

Recently I quoted a Halacha in a different post, but I made sure to include the dissenting Daas Yochid! Why? Because I didn’t want anyone going out with the opinion that there is no one who disagrees!

Bad Bad news folks, I only have ‘words and names’ but no ‘exact sources’

However every word is mamash, Doleh Umashkeh from Poskim and Beki’im (as I said earlier, these include Harav Zev Leff Shlit’a and Rabbi Dr Yitzchok Brietowitz Shlit”a)

Reb Moshe and others hold it is like Retzicha.

It can only be ‘like’ Retzicha for many reasons. Hasra’as Safek that it’s a Tereifah, or Mechusar Shiur Chai.

Tosfos in Niddah holds it is only Issur Miderabanan to abort. (some ask on Tosafos, that if you could be Mechalel Shabbos to save an Ubar, how can it only be Asur Miderabanan to kill?)

Chavos Yair, says it is only issur of Hashchasas Zerah.

Some say it is a Chavalah, causing a wound, either to Mother or Baby

Possible Heterim would be as follows.

1)Tzitz Eliezer says that the Issur of abortion only applies after 7th month. It has been mentioned here that he was a Daas Yachid. However many Poskim did rely on this Shittah in very exceptional cases.

2)Tosafos that holds abortion is only Bittul Piryah Verivyah, and combining with Chinuch that no Mitzvah Peru Urvu by a Mamzer, so in case of rape (of married woman) or incest, you could abort.

3)Reb Yackov Emden holds that you could abort a Mamzer/es, because if a woman is Mezaneh, we would kill her if she even if she is pregnant, and Beis Din do not have to wait until the baby is born, so you could abort in case of voluntary zenus.

4)Chavos Yair that it is Hashchasas Zerah, that is only Assur Shelo Letzorech, so if we can find a good reason to abort, then it is not “Levatalah”.

Most cases where these Shailos come up, the Poskim need good reasons to abort. Morning sickness is not a good enough excuse, sorry 🙁

Situations where they might allow maybe, in a case of a teenager being raped (unlikely scenario because she is not likely to get pregnant), or abuse from family member.

Maybe where the Doctor’s can determine a genetically damaged fetus that will come out completely deformed, brain damage etc.

As always, these cases should be Paskened by a real Rabbi, not us bored rabbles in the Coffee Room.

Health: if someone asked you “how many candles do we light the second night of Channuka?” would it be “deceitful” to answer “2” without mentioning that Beis Shammai holds “7”???

yacr: “Hello99, you are incorrect on this one, and indeed the Halocho states that a Jewish Doctor should do the surgery. I heard this from the mouths of Rabbi Zev Leff and Rabbi Dr Yitchok Breitowitz.”

“I did not mention anywhere what Rabbi Breitowitz himself holds”

Please resolve!