August 12, 2011 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #598598YW Moderator-80Member
there is a new simple blood test, not yet available to the public that can accurately determine the gender of a baby at 6-7 weeks
what do you think this is going to lead to?August 12, 2011 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #806205StamperMember
It’s widely available in Europe.August 12, 2011 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #806206midwesternerParticipant
The question should be “What will this lead to in China?”August 12, 2011 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #806207mommamia22Participant
The first thing that comes to mind is the (old?) law in China that they could only have one baby, so they wanted boys. I can’t think of any good reason to know that far in advance other than rejecting a bracha from Hash-em.August 12, 2011 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #806208ZeesKiteParticipant
and I thought this is another one trying to figure out OUR gender!!August 12, 2011 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #806209ronrsrMember
it will lead to more of what the original sex tests led to all over Asia. It is not just China. There is a new book out on the topic, “Unnatural Selection: Choosing Boys Over Girls and the Consequences of a World Full of Men.” by Mara HvistendalAugust 12, 2011 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #806210brotherofursParticipant
lol zeeskite, i know 1 person thinks like me! 😉August 13, 2011 12:17 am at 12:17 am #806211minyan galMember
Well,the only good reason for Yidden to know so early is that one could start baking for a bris. Mind you, I don’t think I would like to eat pastry that has been frozen for over 7 months.August 13, 2011 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #806212ummMember
I wonder how acurate that is. Chazal say one may daven for the gender of the vlad until 40 days after conception, we count from 2 weeks before conception, so you are talking about 4-5 weeks which is about 28-35 days, when the gender isn’t determined yet, so how can we test then?August 14, 2011 9:54 am at 9:54 am #806213HaQerMember
Speaking of the Chinese “choosing” the gender of their child, is a ben-Noach halachicaly allowed to terminate a pregnancy after 6 weeks? What if a Jew lives in such a country, would they be allowed to do such a thing in order to have a boy?August 14, 2011 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #806214shuliParticipant
i think that is sad. in asia especially. imagine having only men, so sad. its not even funny.
why dont people like girls anyway?
im personally offended.
girls are human too!!August 14, 2011 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #806215popa_bar_abbaParticipant
girls are human too!!
Human? Yes. Jewish?August 14, 2011 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #806216mommamia22Participant
I don’t think in China that they necessarily terminated the pregnancy. I think many girls were put in orphanages since a boy was considered more valuable to a family for what he could contribute economically.August 14, 2011 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #806217
haqer: no, according to the Rambam he is even chayav misaAugust 14, 2011 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #806218ToiParticipant
a ben noach is chayim misa for an abortion. yidden aren’t. the gemara says that until 40 days the vlad is maya bi’almah- water.August 14, 2011 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #806219ronrsrMember
I am sorry ro say that the statistics say otherwise. According to the book i mentioned above, there has been a huge increase in the number of girls who have been prevented from being born. In some coumtries in Asia, terminated pregnancies outnumber live births by over 2.5x, much of that to do with sex selection.
It is a huge problem in a world with so many huger, close problems, that we rarely have time to focus on it.August 14, 2011 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #806220
No a Ben Noach is Chayav Misah on abortion.
Therefore the Poskim hold that (in a case that abortion is Muttar) it should be done by a Yid.
Furthermore, it should be done, if possible by a woman, as according to some, abortion is a problem of Hahchosas Zerah (of which there is no Issur for a woman)
So a female Jewish Doctor is your best choice for an abortion!August 14, 2011 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #806221on the ballParticipant
yacr85 – have you a source that abortion should only be carried out by a Yid? If it’s permitted, it’s permitted. The severity of the aveirah doesnt depend on who is doing it The only difference is the punishment when its NOT permitted .I’d have thought abortion is only muttar when the mother’s life is at risk in which case anyone should be able to carry it out?August 14, 2011 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #806222
Since a Ben Noach is Chayav Missah for killing an Ubbar (fetus) and a Yid is not (its Assur but no Chiyuv Missah), a Goy should not do it (this is obviously when there is a Jewish Doctor of equal ability available to perform the surgery).
You are incorrect about it being muttar only in life threatening situations (ain kaan makom le’harich)
I will try and find you the exact Mekoros later (buried somewhere in my notes!)
This was told to me by Reb Zev Leff (however its pashut!-i.e. very straightforward mekoros in Gemara)August 14, 2011 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #806223ObaminatorMember
yacr – you admit it is assur for a yid to to kill an ubar (fetus), you just say it is assur but not chayiv misa. Therefore by your own point, a yid *cannot* do it, since it is assur. (Even if it isn’t chayiv misa, it’s still assur for the yid.)August 14, 2011 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #806224YW Moderator-42Moderator
Popa, I’m sure you can come up with proofs that girls aren’t human either-maybe next Motzei ShabbosAugust 14, 2011 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #806225
We said in a case that it is muttar!
For a Goy you are being Mattir a Chiyuv Missah and for a Yid, an Issur without a Chiyuv Missah!
Similarly, if a Melochoh has to be done on Shabbos, it is better to get a Katan to do it than a Gadol, (obviouxly in a situation that there is NO advantage using a Gadol) =No brainer.
I remember as a kid, my brother needed stitches removed on Shabbos. My father told me to bring the equipment from the Hatoloh guy’s house to ours! (Fun times, holding this box under my arm-Shinui!)August 14, 2011 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #806226
yacr: better to tell a goy than to do it yourself. Certainly is only permitted when risk to mother’s life, and even then not always.August 15, 2011 1:44 am at 1:44 am #806227MDGParticipant
According to the book that ronrsr referenced above, “Unnatural Selection: Choosing Boys Over Girls and the Consequences of a World Full of Men.”, there seems to be 163,000,000 missing girls, due to abortion (or infanticide) in India, Pakistan, China, and other countries in that region.
They have been doing this for many years.August 15, 2011 1:55 am at 1:55 am #806228YW Moderator-42Moderator
Wow, 163 million missing girls. Talk about a shidduch crisis.August 15, 2011 2:02 am at 2:02 am #806229HaQerMember
So it seems from the above posts that the gender is not determined until 40 days but after 40 days the vlad is no longer considered maya bi’alma so the Chinese have no choice halachicaly but to take what Hashem gave them.
It was mentioned that by goyim it is considered a chiyuv misa but by a Jew it is not. Can someone please explain the difference. I assume that the issur by goyim is murder since that is one of their 7 mitzvos. What is the issur by Jews?August 15, 2011 7:33 am at 7:33 am #806230ToiParticipant
gmara says your chayiv dmay vlados.August 15, 2011 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #806231
hello99, you wrote “yacr: better to tell a Goy than to do it yourself.”
Were you referring to abortion or Chillul Shabbos? The former should be done by a competent physician and NOT BY YOURSELF!
Let us make that clear before there are any lawsuits!
As we said, it is better if a Goy does not do it, as for him it is a Chiyuv Missah and for a Jew there is no Chiyuv Missah.
I really should get the sources for these Halachos!
We do find similarly by stealing, that a Goy is Mechuyav Missah for stealing, whereas a Yid is not.August 15, 2011 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #806232
hello 99 -“Certainly is only permitted when risk to mother’s life, and even then not always.”
You certainly aren’t a Poisek because Poiskem Matter abortions in cases where it isn’t life threating – eg.- genetic problems with the fetus! Stop Paskening from Gemorrohs!August 15, 2011 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #806233MDGParticipant
“Wow, 163 million missing girls. Talk about a shidduch crisis. “
According to the author of that book, when you have such an imbalance of boys, you get a large army and a more war-like populace (even civilian). Furthermore, women are sought out and then become commoditized, with all the negative implications thereof.August 15, 2011 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #806234
yacr85: I’m referring to the Jewish doctor. He should decline and not do a “smaller” aveira to save a goy from a “bigger” one.August 15, 2011 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #806235
Health: actually, I am. You, however, are not.August 15, 2011 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #806236
Hello99, you are incorrect on this one, and indeed the Halocho states that a Jewish Doctor should do the surgery.
(obviously because we, the Poskim are telling someone to do the surgery, therefore we must tell the person to whom it is less of an issue to)
I heard this from the mouths of Rabbi Zev Leff and Rabbi Dr Yitchok Breitowitz.
Also I believe you mentioned that abortion is only permitted in cases of life threatening importance.
This is not correct.
My next post will have these sources!
ThanksAugust 15, 2011 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #806237
yacr85: again, you the have failed to address issue of the doctor himself performing the abortion. Possibly, Rav Leff’s intention may have been to follow Tosafos who holds that there is no heter of pikuach nefesh for a goy. So when faced with threat to the mother’s life, it would be muttar for a Jewish doctor and assur for a non-Jewish one. However, the “bigger” and “smaller” aveira is not relevant.
I’m eagerly awaiting your “sources” to permit abortions without threat to life. I have heard Rav Dovid Morgensten relate in HaRav Elyashiv’s name otherwise. He specifically permitted “reducing” a large number of fetuses only when the number would be potentially dangerous, and even then only in the first 40 days.August 15, 2011 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #806238
yacr: “The source of the Torah prohibition is subject to disagreement.
Some opinions view abortion as form of murder [retzicha], albeit one that does not carry the death penalty similar to the case of killing a tereifah where there is a transgression of lo tirtzach without its corresponding punishment. Others view abortion as falling within the prohibition of hashchatat zera (destruction of seed) in that it wastefully destroys that which could potentially blossom into life. A third view treats “abortion” as an unjustified act of chavala (“wounding”). Within this view, there are some that regard the “chavala” in terms of the mother and others that regard the prohibited chavala as being done to the fetus. A final view would prohibit abortion as being inconsistent with the affirmative obligations to protect and preserve life and well-being, an obligation derived from “lo taamod al dam rayecha” or “hashavat aveida”.
5. The halachic theory for the prohibition would determine which extenuating circumstances may amount to a proper justification, i.e., if the issur is retzicha, abortion can be sanctioned only if the fetus qualifies as a rodef. General considerations of pikuach nefesh would not suffice. At the other extremes, considerations of chavala may be set aside by lesser concerns. Hashchatat zera and hatzala can be arguably set aside for pikuach nefesh even where the fetus does not qualify as a rodef but nothing short of pikuach nefesh would suffice“
The above is a quote from an article from the same Rav Breitowitz you mentioned as a lenient source. He clearly writes that according to all opinions pikuach nefesh is necessary.August 15, 2011 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #806239
“Whatever the grounds,abortion is generally prohibited unless the delivery of the baby poses a direct threat to the life of the mother.The most obvious case is where the mother might die as a result of the birth This category is explicitly recognized in the Mishna. See Oholot 7:6..Halacha also recognizes that a threat to life may be more than physical; psychological stress and anxiety may be life threatening to either the mother or other members of the family and where such indirect pikuach nefesh(danger to life) exists,abortion may be justified if other alternatives such as adoption are insufficient to alleviate the danger.Assume,for example,that a child was conceived through rape or incest.According to most views,that fact standing alone would not justify abortion.The fetus is still at least a potential life that ought to be brought to fruition in the absence of a threat to maternal survival.However,halacha also understands that the psychological trauma arising out of the circumstances of conception may be so devastating as to constitute such a threat at least in some cases though it may not be so in others.In short,halacha does not have an automatic or categorical rape or incest exception;any dispensation must be folded into the general rule of pikuach nefesh.”
“QUESTION TWO::If a baby is determined in utero to have a life threatening disease that may allow them to live only after a few months, is it permissible to terminate the pregnancy?
ANSWER TWO:.The answer in brief:,Jewish law will generally not permit abortion because of a diagnosis that the fetus suffers from a genetic condition which will result in its early death.A number of views would allow early-term abortion within 40 days of conception(a time frame that may be too early for diagnosis through amniocentesis or ultrasound)”August 15, 2011 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #806240bptParticipant
See, and I thought this was something else entirely.
* Are you planning to work after the wedding?
You are a male.
* Are you planning to have your wife raise your kids?
You are a male.
* Are you expecting her to be a working mom, instead of you?
You are a <fill in the blank>
Women need not take the test to determine their gender. They have alread taken (and passed) the test.August 16, 2011 12:42 am at 12:42 am #806241
hello 99 -“Health: actually, I am. You, however, are not.”
You might call yourself a Poisek and you might even have Smicha. But I can’t accept this as a fact because you made a statement which was deceitful (Oiver Al Genivas Daas)!
“Certainly is only permitted when risk to mother’s life, and even then not always.”
When you knew good and well that Tzitz Eliezer doesn’t hold this way. If you weren’t trying to be deceitful -you should have said this is my Psak or the Psak of so and so!August 16, 2011 8:23 am at 8:23 am #806242
Health: calm down. Stating that the Halacha follows the vast majority of the Poskim is not “deceitful”. It is not Geneivas Da’as to omit mentioning a da’as yachid among the Poskim.August 16, 2011 9:01 am at 9:01 am #806243old manParticipant
The source that when an abortion needs to be performed it should be done by a female Jewish physician is the Tzitz Eliezer, Rav Eliezer Waldenberg zt”l. Rav Waldenberg was considered to be the foremost posek in Eretz Yisrael on medical-halachic issues. I cannot be sure, but it seems reasonable that Rav Leff bases his opinion on the Tzitz Eliezer.
The Tzitz Eliezer’s opinions on abortion can be found in Chelek 8, 9, 13,14 and 15. In Chelek 8 he has a long piece on the subject,in the others he discusses specific situations.August 16, 2011 9:05 am at 9:05 am #806244old manParticipant
“Even Rabbi Waldenberg limited his ruling to painful terminal conditions such as Tay-Sachs and would certainly not permit abortion for benign conditions like Down Syndrome”
This statement is not true. Rav Waldenberg specifically discusses Down’s Syndrome and does not “certainly not permit” abortion in those cases. Read ALL his teshuvas on the subject and then draw conclusions.August 16, 2011 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #806245
Hello99, a Daas Yachid that almost all the Poskim use (including Reb Shlomo Zalman) when they felt necessary!August 16, 2011 12:57 pm at 12:57 pm #806246StamperMember
We’re still very eagerly awaiting your “sources” yacr, that you promised will be in your “next post” but wasn’t.August 16, 2011 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #806247
hello 99 -“Stating that the Halacha follows the vast majority of the Poskim is not “deceitful”. It is not Geneivas Da’as to omit mentioning a da’as yachid among the Poskim.”
So is that what you posted -“the Halacha follows the vast majority of the Poskim” or is this what you posted -“Certainly is only permitted when risk to mother’s life, and even then not always.”?
Being that there are all types of people here -from just the original post -they will think that the Halacha is exactly from the Gemorrah and they will have no clue that there can be any dissention acc. to Halacha. For example – If s/o says you can’t eat pig no matter what unless it’s a matter of life and death. Period. Now let’s say there was s/o who held in certain times pig would be Mutter, but you made a blanket statement it is never Mutter. This is being deceitful and that is exactly what you did!
This is a public forum. You would be right if s/o came to you and asked you a Shaila privately -you wouldn’t be required to say this is my Psak or the Psak of so and so. They are asking You what you hold. Over here no one asked you -your opinion.
Recently I quoted a Halacha in a different post, but I made sure to include the dissenting Daas Yochid! Why? Because I didn’t want anyone going out with the opinion that there is no one who disagrees!August 16, 2011 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #806248
Stamper, Guilty as charged.
Off I go to find my yellowed, dog-eared, withering, smudged notebook!
BRBAugust 16, 2011 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #806249
Bad Bad news folks, I only have ‘words and names’ but no ‘exact sources’
However every word is mamash, Doleh Umashkeh from Poskim and Beki’im (as I said earlier, these include Harav Zev Leff Shlit’a and Rabbi Dr Yitzchok Brietowitz Shlit”a)
Reb Moshe and others hold it is like Retzicha.
It can only be ‘like’ Retzicha for many reasons. Hasra’as Safek that it’s a Tereifah, or Mechusar Shiur Chai.
Tosfos in Niddah holds it is only Issur Miderabanan to abort. (some ask on Tosafos, that if you could be Mechalel Shabbos to save an Ubar, how can it only be Asur Miderabanan to kill?)
Chavos Yair, says it is only issur of Hashchasas Zerah.
Some say it is a Chavalah, causing a wound, either to Mother or Baby
Possible Heterim would be as follows.
1)Tzitz Eliezer says that the Issur of abortion only applies after 7th month. It has been mentioned here that he was a Daas Yachid. However many Poskim did rely on this Shittah in very exceptional cases.
2)Tosafos that holds abortion is only Bittul Piryah Verivyah, and combining with Chinuch that no Mitzvah Peru Urvu by a Mamzer, so in case of rape (of married woman) or incest, you could abort.
3)Reb Yackov Emden holds that you could abort a Mamzer/es, because if a woman is Mezaneh, we would kill her if she even if she is pregnant, and Beis Din do not have to wait until the baby is born, so you could abort in case of voluntary zenus.
4)Chavos Yair that it is Hashchasas Zerah, that is only Assur Shelo Letzorech, so if we can find a good reason to abort, then it is not “Levatalah”.
Most cases where these Shailos come up, the Poskim need good reasons to abort. Morning sickness is not a good enough excuse, sorry 🙁
Situations where they might allow maybe, in a case of a teenager being raped (unlikely scenario because she is not likely to get pregnant), or abuse from family member.
Maybe where the Doctor’s can determine a genetically damaged fetus that will come out completely deformed, brain damage etc.
As always, these cases should be Paskened by a real Rabbi, not us bored rabbles in the Coffee Room.August 16, 2011 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #806250
yacr: but did you notice that I quoted Rabbi Breitowitz’s own writings where he says that even if it is hashchasas zera or chavala there would still be NO heter without Pikuach Nefesh. You are obviously misquoting him.August 16, 2011 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #806251
Health: if someone asked you “how many candles do we light the second night of Channuka?” would it be “deceitful” to answer “2” without mentioning that Beis Shammai holds “7”???August 16, 2011 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #806252
I did not mention anywhere what Rabbi Breitowitz himself holds.
It is true that most Poskim do hold like Reb Moshe that it is similar to Retzicha. However, when it comes to a Shailoh, the Rabbi has to take all opinions into account, including all the ones mentioned above.
I did not say how I would pasken, how R’ Brietowitz would Pasken, or how any other Posek would Pasken. (not that I would Pasken on anything besides what goes on in my own house)
I merely stated the Shittos, ranging from R’ Moshe of Retzichah to Chavalah (probably the most lenient).
This is a Talmudic discussion, quoted above are all the main Shittos (I hope!)August 17, 2011 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #806255
yacr: “Hello99, you are incorrect on this one, and indeed the Halocho states that a Jewish Doctor should do the surgery. I heard this from the mouths of Rabbi Zev Leff and Rabbi Dr Yitchok Breitowitz.”
“I did not mention anywhere what Rabbi Breitowitz himself holds”
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.