New York State is Denying Access to Education to Anti-Vaxer Students

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  • #1763734

    Abba_S
    Participant

    New York State has eliminated religious exemption for those who will not get vaccinated. So anyone who claims it is against their religion to be vaccinated can not attend public or private school. How will they be educated?

    It has been eliminated because it is not religion that is exempting the vaccines. In fact, our religion has been pretty clear about the need to vaccinate.

     

    edited

    #1764409

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mods, it is generally a better idea to post your opinions as a comment of your own rather than editing it into someone else’s. Even if it is a good answer.

     

    I agree

    #1764420

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Who cares? If they’re dumb enough to be anti-vaxxers they’ll never amount to anything anyway.

    #1764431

    The little I know
    Participant

    Abba:

    Come on. You’re sounding foolish. The issue is not about the anti-vax kids getting an education. It is about them posing public health risks in public places. You should have enough smarts to understand that. Don’t change the truth by pushing a fictional narrative. Frankly, if we want to hear that kind of junk, we would just read and watch the media where they broadcast and report the inane drivel from AOC and her squad.

    The mod was perfectly correct. There is NO religious exemption in Torah Law. It is nothing more than buying into an ideology of fake science. It is your privilege to do that. It is not okay when you create risk for anyone else. And it just might be an issur to deny that protection to your children. So, cut it out. If you want to make a good argument and have a debate or discussion, begin with some truth.

    #1764448

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Logically, these parents should be subject to criminal liability if their own children or others could be shown as having become sick for their failure to vaccinate Unfortunately, it is really hard to make a definitive linkage to meet criminal liability and intent criteria so keeping their children out of schools is the LEAST the state should be doing.

    #1764467

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Neville, many non-vaccinated people are children who did not choose not to be vaccinated.

    #1764480

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    How will they be educated?

    Hopefully, their parents will stop acting stupidly and irresponsibly, and get them vaccinated.

    The mod is 100% right. These scoundrels were abusing the religious exemption, aside from putting the public and their own children at risk.

    #1764483

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    There is always a tension between indirectly punishing children for the sins of their parents, which is unfortunately the case here when kids are kept out of school. However, it is the lesser of two evils given the risk to the tzibur. Given the overwhelming amount of information shared on every media platform, frum and secular, there is no longer ANY excuse for any vaccine denial.

    #1764517

    Abba_S
    Participant

    Neville Chaim Berlin: State law mandates that all children between the age of 6-16 must be educated. The state can’t force them to vaccinate if they claim they are not doing it for religious purposes. This is even though 99% of Jews hold that it’s a Mitzvah to be vaccinated. If an individual claims it’s against his religion by secular law it’s against his religion. For example before Marijuana was legal American Indians claimed that they smoked it for religious purposes and won in federal court.

    On one hand the state is mandating the number of hours that secular studies must be taught to yeshiva students and on the other hand the same state is denying yeshiva students access to learn. because the state doesn’t agree with their religious believes.

    I realize that there is a bias here against the anti-vaxers but they are still Jews and there is an obligation to educate every Jew not just the ones you agree with.

    #1764534

    adocs
    Participant

    If the parents feel so strongly about this, they can be home schooled.

    #1764535

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The state can’t force them to vaccinate if they claim they are not doing it for religious purposes.

    If I claim carrying a loaded weapon is my religious belief, can the state refuse to allow my kids into school?

    #1764536

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    there is an obligation to educate every Jew not just the ones you agree with

    True, but blame the parents, whose obligation it is more than anyone else’s, and are the ones blocking it.

    #1764545

    Mammele
    Participant

    Home schooling in groups or “Associations” is coming to a house near you. And for better or worse, it’ll affect the status-quo of Yeshiva/BY education. Schools will likely rethink a lot of their services and expenses if this indirect competition materializes.

    Additionally, due to numerous very small venues, the lessons and garbage the state is trying to mandate will be almost impossible to enforce. Which may cause many more parents than just anti-Vaxxers to gravitate towards home-schooling.

    Time will tell if I’m right. So bookmark this page…

    #1764542

    The little I know
    Participant

    Abba:

    You wrote: “The state can’t force them to vaccinate if they claim they are not doing it for religious purposes. ”

    Stop it. You are out of line according to Torah by insisting that it is a religious issue when it is not. Is it a mitzvah to drive a Toyota? You might feel it is unacceptable for the dealer to charge you so much for a new car that is outside of your range. and that he is denying you the right to own a car, as if there is some sort of Torah obligation to provide you with one.

    Whatever my opinion about vaxxing is, you are blasphemous to claim that you have a Torah given privilege to make that choice.

    Take it from the Gedolim: There is ZERO basis in Torah to avoid vaxxing. It may your preference. But there is NO religious exemption here.

    #1764554

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “The state can’t force them to vaccinate if they claim they are not doing it for religious purposes.”
    You yourself said they ended the religious exemption. Religion is not a magic wand that paturs someone from whatever American laws they want, and if people try to use it that way the state will only grow to resent religion more and more.

    Rebyid:
    Yeah, but the apple doesn’t fall far from the moron tree.

    #1764559

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    Actually, the State can target religion if the regulation passes strict scrutiny. Which it should in this case. Despite the fact that it’s not religion.

    However, the OPs premise that *the State* is denying these children education is wrong. It is the children’s pigheaded parents who are denying their children the “right” to be educated, and the more important “right” to be healthy.

    #1764562

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “State law mandates that all children between the age of 6-16 must be educated. The state can’t force them to vaccinate if they claim they are not doing it for religious purposes.“

    So the same state law that’s mandating education is mandating vaccanation

    So they’re in essence saying if you don’t vaccinate don’t go to school so if you want to send them to school you need to vaccinate

    #1764573

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Mammele, it’s my impression that most states have pretty strict standards when it comes to home schooling. Of course there are those who ignore those standards and slip under that radar. Some of the horrendous stories of child abuse that have been in the news involve home schooled children.

    #1764575

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mammelle: Children in these new home schooling associations will be losing millions in government educational benefits such as transportation, special ed (P3, CYAT, OT, PT, etc.), textbooks, etc.

    #1764639

    Abba_S
    Participant

    I don’t understand this is the three weeks when Jews are morning the destruction of the temple because of hatred of our fellow Jew and we are dehumanizing people because they do not get vaccinated? Also the fact that they are denied access to yeshiva is diminishing the amount of Torah learning in the world . Where do you stand on this issue? Are you for more Torah learning or less?

    While home schooling maybe the answer, how can someone teach 10 kids of different ages at the same time.
    Or the STATE can provide tutors for this basic CIVIL RIGHTS which the state just started denying.

    I might agree with you that anti-vaxers should e banned from school if people with other diseases such as AIDS, which is more deadly then mumps, were also barred from school, but that isn’t the case.

    I would like to apologize if I offended anyone.

    #1764739

    too geshmak
    Participant

    Wow, Abba S,
    Well done. You start with a strawman and end with a false equivalency. Now I won’t blame you for not knowing that there are limits on all of our civil rights (especially when they interfere with public safety) because hey, maybe you were home schooled. As to your ridiculous comparison to AIDS, AIDS is only contagious in some very specific circumstances, an AIDS patient poses almost no public health risk by being in school. Measles on the other hand can be spread through breathing the same air as the patient. By the way, any child who is sick with any cold or flu is told to stay home, or as you call it, has their civil rights violated.

    #1764785

    The little I know
    Participant

    Abba:

    Don’t be ridiculous. This is not about personal hate. It is silly to characterize it as such. No one is dehumanizing people for not being vaccinated. They are free to make their stupid choices, just not at the expense of others. Their ideology poses risk to others. We can debate the ideology, but the matter at hand is the public health issue. And NYS has every right to exercise its responsibility to protect the student populations. It only diminishes Torah learning if you want that to occur. You are obsessed with the fatal error of invoking Torah here, which is מגלה פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה.

    You draw attention to the home schooling issue, noting how complicated it would be. Either put up or shut up. You may choose to keep your kids home and educate them there, but that is not my responsibility. It would be yours. And the government would provide tutors, at the very best, for secular subjects. It would be insane to expect government to cross church-state lines and provide tutors for Limudei Kodesh.

    As far as which diseases should be the focus for banning unvaxxed kids from school, it would be wise to defer to the public health experts on that. Your perception of risk may have no overlap with what they know from scientific study. Stick with subjects where you actually have knowledge.

    #1764839

    apushatayid
    Participant

    According to some literature put out by the folks in Monroe, a number of people who claim religious exemption are really allowed a medical exemption but are afraid of providing that info because of all the yentas that are unfortunately prevalant (at least in their eyes).

    #1764857

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Neville, do you think it’s better for them to be stupid and uneducated?

    #1764893

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Neville, do you think it’s better for them to be stupid and uneducated?”
    I think it’s better not to put at risk the children who will actually stand to benefit from education on account of their functioning brains.

    “afraid of providing that info because of all the yentas that are unfortunately prevalant”
    So, they’d rather the yentas go around telling people they’re anti-vaxxers? Sorry, don’t buy it. If it’s true, then it shows that anti-vaxxers are too socially accepted, which is exactly why they need to be publicly shamed.

    #1764921

    doomsday
    Participant

    Do all of you favor the school mandating vaccines for all employees? Vaccine Immunity wanes after a number of years and most adults are not immune, even if they were vaccinated. Should all adults in school be forced to take the 73 shot schedule that is forced on children? In the 1960s there were only 4 vaccines, so why are adults allowed into school with far less vaccines than children?

    #1764924

    Abba_S
    Participant

    As far as it not being a religious issue,. if the Vilna Goan & the Bal Shem Tov both testified that a piece of meat was kosher and Zev said that that piece was HAM. The Talmud states that for everyone the meat is kosher but for Zev the meat is HAM. So even though for everyone else it is permissible to vaccinate but for those who hold it’s prohibited it is the same as making them eat pork.

    A bigger problem is if you let them be home schooled and not given them a good education, then those parents who don’t want their children to learn secular studies will become ant-vaxers too in order not to have their children taught secular studies thus creating a bigger problem. Another problem is that if they don’t get a good education they are going to be a burden on society. Just remember this is the state that wants yeshivas to teach more secular studies so that the students can be more productive during their lifetime.

    If 96 percent of Jews vaccinate and the vaccine makes one immune, if an anti-vaxer attended school with the average class having 30 students he couldn’t contaminate anyone with the disease, as he is the only one not vaccinated. Even in the lunchroom or the school yard the only one that would get the disease would be other anti-vaxers so I don’t see the problem. Even if someone does get the disease, it is usually mild and goes away in a week or two. Although some people do require hospitalization. AIDS on the other hand is a death sentence. If bodily fluids from an AIDS patient gets in contact with broken skin such as a scab or cut or if someone chews on their finger nails after touching handrail where an AIDS patient deposited bodily fluids there is a good chance of contacting AIDS. Once you get Aids there is no cure so you eventually die from it. Yet AIDS patients are not denied access to schools . If you had a choice between having an anti-vaxer or an AIDS patient in your child’s class which would you choose?

    #1764930

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    As far as it not being a religious issue,. if the Vilna Goan & the Bal Shem Tov both testified that a piece of meat was kosher and Zev said that that piece was HAM. The Talmud states that for everyone the meat is kosher but for Zev the meat is HAM. So even though for everyone else it is permissible to vaccinate but for those who hold it’s prohibited it is the same as making them eat pork.

    That is totally incorrect.

    You’re misrepresenting the gemara of שויא אנפשיה. It doesn’t apply where it’s blatantly and obviously wrong, so although if someone said a piece of meat was not slaughtered, or that a woman was married, the piece of meat would be assur and he wouldn’t be allowed to marry her. However, if he said it was ham, that would be blatantly false and he would still be allowed to eat the meat.

    That’s probably true here as well.

    Antivaxxer meshugas isn’t based on the antivaxxers claiming to have witnessed something, as the cases in the gemara are, it’s just that they’ve accepted the false narrative of a bunch of quacks instead of mainstream medicine.

    Any posek would tell an antivaxxer that it’s a chiyuv to vaccinate, and that their meshugene dayos don’t change that.

    #1764944

    too geshmak
    Participant

    Abba a,
    You have the most convoluted logic. People who don’t want secular education but would vaccinate, would withhold vaccines to their children just to put them in a non secular education homeschool? Huh? Why would they have to withhold vaccines to go to this homeschool? Also, if homeschool is the way to get out of secular education, why wouldn’t they put together a vaccinated group?
    As to your next point, and this has been gone over so many times, there are children who are medically not able to get vaccines, they rely on being the exception to the rule, so that if everyone is vaccinated and can’t bring in measles, these kids will be safe in the herd immunity. Every additional kid who is unvaccinated increases the chance that someone will bring measles into the school. Additionally the vaccine is 97% effective so if someone brings measles into a school with a couple hundred kids, statistically speaking there will be a handful of vaccinated kids who also catch the disease.
    As to the AIDS point, I think you proved that you dont understand how diseases spread. If HIV spread as easily as you wrote, anyone who took a subway or played in a public park could catch HIV. That’s not how it works, it’s actually difficult and rare to catch HIV in an instance where you dont have direct contact. Even with direct contact you need very certain specific bodily fluids(saliva or sweat don’t do it, it has to be blood, etc) to come on contact with a mucous membrane or directly into the blood flow. Unless someone has an open sore in the mouth they are not catching HIV on their mouth. Measles on the other hand spreads through the air the sick person breathes. To ask if I would rather have an AIDS kid in the class while implying that that means other kids will catch AIDS is either ignorant or disingenuous.

    #1764934

    doomsday
    Participant

    Abba, you hit the nail on the head. Since everyone else is vaccinated the chance of getting measles from an anti-vaxxer is slim. And even if you get measles, the chances of it being serious is slim. So WHY is the government making such a big deal over 2% of kids who don’t vaccinate?

    For 40 years, the Tobacco Industry and their hired scientists LIED that smoking doesn’t cause cancer. It was Smoker vs Non-Smoker Studies that proved that Smoking DOES cause cancer. And that is why Government and Pharmaceutical Industry can NEVER allow a Vax vs UnVax Study, as it would prove that UnVaxxed don’t have autism and waaaaaay less adhd, learning disabilities, allergies, asthma, etc.
    So Government/Pharmaceutical Industry must Eliminate ALL UnVaxxed, even though they are only 2%,
    If there are ZERO UnVaxxed then nobody can never do a Vax vs. UnVaxxed Study. Perfect COVER-UP!

    #1764938

    laskern
    Participant

    DY, I think I have a proof to your saying. It is called שויא אנפשיה חתיחה דאיסורא it does not say שויא אנפשיה איסורא which would mean any issur, but it says a slice which is nor known where it comes from, kosher or non-kosher.

    #1764939

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    To add to dy,

    Where they don’t vaccinate they’re causing other people to get it and it’s like feeding other people pork

    #1764950

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So WHY is the government making such a big deal over 2% of kids who don’t vaccinate?

    Because they cause people to be seriously ill or die.

    #1764953

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    The law should allow schools to vaccinate children.

    #1764954

    laskern
    Participant

    חתיחה above is misspelled should be חתיכה.

    #1764955

    too geshmak
    Participant

    Doomsday,
    There was a massive study done in 2015 the Journal of the American Medical Association, in which researchers went over the medical records of 95000 kids, including 15000 kids not vaccinated at age 2 and 8000 still unvaccinated at age 8. This peer reviewed study even had 2000 kids who were considered high risk for autism (bec they had an autistic older sibling). The study found no link between vaccines and autism and in fact found that autism rates were lower in the vaccinated sample. The study also found no difference in autism rates between vax and unvaxxed kids who were considered high risk. Yet we have doomsday saying that the AMA would never do a study comparing the populations, and that unvaxxed kids dont have autism

    #1764956

    Dovid Lefkowitz
    Participant

    As they should

    #1764957

    bk613
    Participant

    “So Government/Pharmaceutical Industry must Eliminate ALL UnVaxxed, even though they are only 2%,
    If there are ZERO UnVaxxed then nobody can never do a Vax vs. UnVaxxed Study. Perfect COVER-UP!”
    The conspiracies that you lunatics come up with are truly amazing.

    #1765133

    HonestOpinion613
    Participant

    @tooGeshmak

    where is that study about unvaccinated to vaccinated children?

    Have you checked it out or you just believe the government? is it a FULL vaccinated vs unvaccinated children or just those who were unvaccinated for this SPECIFIC VACCINE (this is how the government is playing tricks on everyone with their studies)

    #1765178

    doomsday
    Participant

    Too Geshmak: <i>”The study found no link between vaccines and autism”</i>

    WRONG! The Study: Autism Occurrence by MMR Vaccine Status Among US Children With Older Siblings With and Without Autism, was NOT a Vax vs UnVax Study! As the Title says, it was a study comparing Vaxxed kids who got the MMR vs Vaxxed kids who did not get the MMR. And the study concluded that the Autism rate was similar. The study compared autism rate of children who got 32 vaccines vs children who got 34 vaccines.

    That is like doing a study comparing 32 pack a day smokers vs 34 pack a day smokers, and saying because the autism rate is similar that proves that smoking does not cause cancer. RIDICULOUS!
    If you want to study if smoking causes cancer you do a Smoker vs Non-Smoker Study (which DID prove smoking causes cancer). If you want to study if vaccines cause Autism you study children who were 100% vaccinated per CDC schedule vs children 100% Unvaccinated. You don’t compare autism rates of 34 vaccines vs 32 vaccines and conclude since both groups have similar autism rates, that proves vaccines don’t cause autism!

    The CDC will NEVER do a Vax vs UnVax Study – even though congressmen have asked for one. Think about that. WHY does the CDC refuse to compare the Health of 100% vaccinated vs 100% Unvaccinated??? What is the CDC hiding?

    #1765179

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Doomsday- you make no sense. The reason the study was done on 32 vs 34 is because the complaint is that the MMR is linked to autism (if you don’t believe me just check the 1000 other posts). This study proved that autism was NOT found to increase in the MMR population so now you are trying to rewrite history and pretend you meant ALL vaccines.
    Quit while you’re ahead.

    #1765182

    doomsday
    Participant

    HonestOpinion, you are correct. The study was NOT a Vax vs UnVax Study. It was a
    34 vaccines (including MMR) vs 32 Vaccines (Vaxxed but No MMR). The study does NOT prove
    “vaccines” don’t cause Autism. The study does not even prove that MMR does not cause autism,
    as it would have to be MMR vs ZERO Vaccines to prove that. It was a Fraudulent study designed to
    fool people. The SCIENTIFIC GOLD STANDARD study is 100% vaccinated vs 100% Unvaccinated. Could be retrospective study, so no “ethical” problems.

    #1765205

    HonestOpinion613
    Participant

    Doomsday – If you would do a little research and not believe everything that the government says without double checking the facts, you would see that there is a very big scientific possible cause that children get Autisim because of the aluminum in other vaccines that is triggered through the MMR (or any other inflamation) to enter the BRAIN. .

    this aluminium stays at the place of the shot (doesn’t move in the blood) until there is inflammation in the body , and when there is inflammation it causes a specific type of white blood cells to move through the body. This white blodd cells (forgot the medical name) cannot distroy the alumunim and since they pass through the lymph system and not through the Blood, they are not blocked by the Brain barrier and they pass to the brain with all the alumunim from the shot that they absorved.

    alumunim is a known toxin.

    and the government wants to fool everyone that since alumunim is found in mother milk , then this small amount is not dangerous.

    when in fact we are talking about two DIFFERENT TYPES OF ALUMUNIM .

    the natural aluminium is water soluble and the little that gets absorved travels through the BLOOD and cannot pass the brain barrier . It then gets disposes by the kidney.

    Vs the type of alumunim used in vaccines is NON-SOLUBILE. and it Does NOT travel through the blood .

    so yes, you do need to have a Full vaccinated vs unvaccinted study to prove any safety,

    and as long there is no such study , then vaccines have a big רעותא in their safety and thier is a torah obligation ונשמרתם מאוד לנפשותיכם.

    #1765212

    doomsday
    Participant

    Syag Lchochma: “The reason the study was done on 32 vs 34 is because the complaint is that the MMR is linked to autism (if you don’t believe me just check the 1000 other posts). This study proved that autism was NOT found to increase in the MMR population so now you are trying to rewrite history and pretend you meant ALL vaccines.”

    1. Wrong! Anti-Vaxxers have asked CDC for 100% Vaxxed vs 100% Unvaxxed. CDC refuses. Why?

    2. The Study does not prove that MMR does not cause Autism. If cancer rate is the same for 32 pack a day smokers vs 34 pack a day smokers, that does NOT prove smoking does not cause cancer! The study would have to be Smoker vs Non-Smoker. And for MMR the study would have to be MMR vs 100% Unvaccinated.

    #1765241

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    doomsday- WRONG

    #1765246

    doomsday
    Participant

    Honest Opinion, I am an anti-vaxxer. Read my posts again.

    #1765239

    The little I know
    Participant

    Honest & DD:

    Are either of you trained in the sciences to know anything about how to interpret research? Well, I am, and have actually conducted research myself. Syag is correct on this, while you two have reached a foregone conclusion and are desperate to find something scientific to base it on. What you two are touting is junk science, and has been proclaimed as such my numerous experts, whose level you could not achieve in another few lifetimes. You may choose to believe the snake oil purveyors of the world together with all the conspiracy theories. But don’t sell us the “scientific” stuff. You simply don’t understand it, and you embarrass yourselves by projecting a false image of basing your beliefs on “science”.

    #1765281

    Meno
    Participant

    Anti-Vaxxers have asked CDC for 100% Vaxxed vs 100% Unvaxxed. CDC refuses. Why?

    When I was 8 years old, I asked my parents to pay $40K to send me to astronaut college. They refused and said that I wouldn’t be able to be an astronaut anyway because I throw up whenever I go on the carousel.

    Now that I’m older and wiser, I know that they were really lying and that they didn’t let me go because they didn’t WANT me to become an astronaut.

    #1765274

    HonestOpinion613
    Participant

    doomsday – messed up name . should have been SyagLchochma .

    #1765203

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Even if it were linked to autism, at least there are high-functioning autistic people. Anti-Vaxxerism seems to be a much greater and more crippling form of mental retardation than autism.

    There will never be 100% vaccination, and nobody claims there ever will be. There are people who are actually unable to receive the vaccines for real, medical reasons. And, by the way, those are the people we actually care about who you anti-vaxxers are putting at risk, real, functioning human beings. If it was only anti-vaxxers putting themselves at risk, I would be fine just viewing measles as Hashem’s way of cleaning up the gene pool.

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