Out Of The Mailbag: (Flatbush Kiddush: Tznius & Drinking Out Of Control)

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    Y.W. Editor


    The following two letters were written by two separate people, and submitted to YWN on Motzei Shabbos:

    Letter #1: Dear YWN,

    Yiddishe Neshomos are at stake here!

    Letter #2: Dear Yeshiva World readers.

    Something MUST be done!

    I was at a Kiddush today, and I am sick at what I saw.

    The first thing was that the woman were dressed as Prusta Chayos. I was appalled at what I saw.

    This is not a joke.

    There will not be a Klal Yisroel in 20 years.

    Y.W. Editor


    The following two letters were written by two separate people, and submitted to YWN on Motzei Shabbos:

    Letter #1: Dear YWN,

    Yiddishe Neshomos are at stake here!

    Letter #2: Dear Yeshiva World readers.

    Something MUST be done!

    I was at a Kiddush today, and I am sick at what I saw.

    The first thing was that the woman were dressed as Prusta Chayos. I was appalled at what I saw.

    This is not a joke.

    There will not be a Klal Yisroel in 20 years.

    Joe Schmo

    i think i was at this kiddush, and i must say that i have never commented on ywn before, but what they wrote was an understatement.

    i have never seen such type of behavior in my life before.


    People don’t listen to rabbonim when it comes to “fashion” as R’ Moshe famously said (paraphrased) I can’t compete with a shaigetz in Paris. If so Mutav sheyihu shoggin… (and every girl who went to BY knows what they’r doing wrong so telling them again won’t help).

    As for the Rabbonim “cozyong up” – I don’t think that’s fair. What do you expect – they shouldn’t talk to any of their balabatim? I’m sure there is a strategy along the lines of “if I am a part of his life then I can influence his life” which is a proven one.

    I think maybe instead of writing letters to YW we should all try and improve ourselves and our families and maybe, just maybe, we’ll rub off on our neighbors. and in the meantime – skip the kiddush.


    Why dont I ever get invited to these Kiddushim? I was at 2 Kiddushom today and there was definitely no drinking on my side of the mechitza, and since the mechitza was left standing, I have no idea how anyone was dressed on “the other side”. Hmmm….


    Both Tzinius posts are RIGHT ON TARGET!

    Tzinius is the affliction of our times and the cause of our tragedies.


    switch shuls if you dont agree with other peoples standards. thats why i dont daven at reform or conservative shuls. though i feel that your letters are appropriate as warnings that people should pay attention to these things


    Yasher Koach for your letter. The breach of tznius we are seeing today is horrendous. How sad and painful it is to see these kinds of violations taking place in the very place where we communicate with Hashem. If the Rov or Rabbi of such a shule does not make it his first priority to rectify the situation he is not much of a Rabbi.

    indicates to me that this Rabbi leaves much to be desired and perhaps you should change your shule and go to a shule where the rabbi is true yorai shomayim.

    ya ya

    o please “There will not be a Klal Yisroel in 20 years.” im sure you have the power to say that!!!


    “There will not be a Klal Yisroel in 20 years.” ? I think thats a bit of an extreme statement. whats the connection? These kidashim existed 20 years ago and we are still here. I think by far the (silent) majority of people even at these kidushim do not drink excessively – This is a problem of a few people that needs to be addressed – but this (in my opinion) is not an epidemic –


    There will not be a Klal Yisroel in 20 years????????????????????? editor how can u let such a line go up on your websight


    this is not a new thing it’s been going on for years!!! the problem is the mothers are no better!!!!! this is what these girls see in their home so that is how they dress. I lived in such a neighborhood in eretz yisroel and always thought how do these husbands let these girls out of their house? then when the parents came it all became clear!!! the other problem is have you been to the stores now in flatbush most of them don’t sell any tzniusdik clothing!!!! so what can these girls do!!!!

    ginas vradim

    no need from commentators at your local shul. My rebbe, a RY said to us that the security guard at the simcha hall, a goy, told him, “Rabbi! Why do Jewish women dress to kill?”.(actual comment) There are no melitzos.


    Rabbis at two at the six shuls in my neighborhood have banned alcohol from shul functions. We still have a good time.

    back off

    To the one who posted the comparason to meah shearim-are you suggesting we dress like them? If not then what’s your red line? I’m sure if the residents of meah shearim saw how you dress they would also make a kol koreh cuz its their way or the highway


    i think that the tznius that goes on these days is not normal the little girl walk around half undressed and everyone says that they look so cute and they grow uo wth this the rabbanim have to stope the desiners and ban them from shuls and schools and they should have a dress code for mother as well i know ppl that when the girls come home of goes the sock and the long sleeve shirt and ten they want to know whyt the kids are mied up

    i wish everyone a healthy and tziniasdik summer


    the first thing this showes is that people don’t know how to spend there money.

    second when shuels make rules that there can only be a plain simple kiddush maby this is why they made this rule so things should not get out of hand.

    third it is easy for you to tell a rov how he should behave and what he should do. what do you know about this rov. maby these same people give him big money for differant causes , and before you say that this is blood money mabey the next time big money has to be raised for differant causes please step up to the plate and write that million dollar check for this rov to give to those people who need it.

    please do not think that i’m for this type of behaveur in any circle but if you want this to stop then lets get to the root of the problom. all the jewish papers that show ads of girls wearing thight fitting clothing should be banned and not allowed to be printed and not allowed in to houses.

    insted of crying about the problom do something about it. which two shuels did this happen buy and let the rabbonim involved have a chance to defend themselves.

    mabey if people on this board would know which shuels have these probloms , when they get an invitation for a simcha mabey they will not go in the future and let the bal simcha know about it so in the future he will think before he makes a simcha and makes sure that everything is kosher from the food to the way everybody should behave.


    yossi I am sorry but you are writing as if you are drunk yourself.I really have no idea what your trying to say

    A Poshiter Yid

    first of all, Jewish stores should select only normal clothing to sell & schools should campagin students should not buy at non heimish stores/catalogs/online where these “Non Tznius” clothing are sold for cheaper, money is not everything


    i have a question for the letter writers…why didnt you just leave?

    A B

    Please dear friends, learn to spell correctly!!!! Bad spelling, incorrect grammar, and unedited posts/comments show a carelessness about the way you present yourself to others.

    …. Similarly, careless people will have no qualms about making a chillul Hashem at a well attended social function, like a shul kiddush. If people would be more cognizant and realize that others are watching, (besides of course, Hashem), we would be on track to some improvement.


    I was discussing this with my father on this past Shabbos morning. The next thing I noticed after leaving the house was two kids in their early teens, completely drunk on their way home from a Kiddush. Just how many parents leave a number of wiskey bottles out in the open without any means of supervising the young boys whenever they make a simcha?! Completely irresponsble! Not to mention certain fathers who also come home drunk at home on shabbos and cant even continue a normal shabbos meal at home. Don’t they realize that they’re sending bad messages to their children?!


    these letter writers are not writing in so that you could give them advise on how to handle themselves i.e. switch shuls.. they are trying to promote an awareness of existing problems!!! No we dont have to dress like Meah Shearimniks… becauses yes that is extreme!! but there is a problem that we have to face…

    as far as alcohol……..who needs it??? I dont think its that much different then drugs… you drink it, you get a high, you overdose….YOU DIE!!


    Reading the first letter, my reaction is that it may very well be an OVER-REATION. Yes, you read that right.

    Why was there a goy in shul? The answer is obvious: he was a guest. He was there for the ensuing wedding. Is it possible that these immodestly dressed girls were shiksas or maybe even non-religious Jewish friends/relatives also there for the wedding? Is it possible that, rather than reflecting declining standards of tznius in our communities, it’s an unavoidable consequence of what happens when Jewish families are “mixed” as to their religiousness.

    Instead of being upset, maybe we should be all the more proud that the chassan and kallah chose the path they chose, rather than be influenced by these friends and relatives who live like the goyim

    Hahu Gavra

    Question for the authors: If the Mechitza only came down at the end, WHY WERE YOU LOOKING AT THE WOMEN TO BEGIN WITH???!!!??? Granted there is an obligation for women to dress B’Tznius, however, there is also an Issur Dioraissa of Histaclus and a prohnition of V’Lo Sasuru Acharei Eineichem. Perhaps the Rabbonim have to start reminding people about what they say two times a day or, chas v’shalom, there will not be Klal Yisroel in 20 years!


    A really caring person would have approached the Rov and discussed it with him, as opposed to posting to YWN.

    What do you expect us to do? Guess which shul you went to and contact the Rov ourselves?

    Going up to people and commenting “OMG! I can’t believe the way you wife/daughter is [un]dressed” may have an affect.

    Read All for the Boss to see how it’s done.


    people think the chassidim are extreme in dressing? Open Rabbi Falk’s book on tznius – think it’s called “oz vehadar levusha” & you’ll be surprised. The same halachos apply to everyone.

    The last comment of the 2nd letter writer though, (“there will be no klal yisrael in 20 years..”) was obviously written in a moment of anger, cuz it doesn’t make too much sense. For 1, we all believe moshiach will be here by then…



    all peploe who think they are posting bad mouthing and all else you do is not helping worry about yourseles first fix your lives and it will set an example for others all your posts slamming each other are pointless

    so lets all do teshuva

    and it will help evreyone else



    in answer to some of the above letters. I don’t think the people realize what a very terrible situation we are all in. I heard this from a rich balabos who now lives in Yerushalyim for many years. He came for a simcha and was SICK. WE don’t realize how rock bottom our tznius is! The mingeling in smorganborch, kiddushim. WHY are there not 2 seperate entrances???? Why are there not 2 seperate smorgansbord??? oh it cost extra money. Pay a little less or serve a little less and think of Tznius at your child simcha. The very big problem as you say Where are the Robbonim??? Why don’t they talk??? They are being PAID a PAID worker does what his kehilla wants. unfortunately, thats why DO NOT ONLY BLAME the Rabbonim BLAME youself. Stand up and scream GEVALD when yuou see it. Thats what they would do in Yerushalayim GEVALD!!!. Klall Yisroel will be forever ..but unfortunately there are Tzoras!!! IS this not the reason,?? Where is your example to your children???? Gevald


    At least two shuls that I know of ( YI of Woodmere and YI of Staten Island ) banned all alcohol years ago because too many people ( and kids ) were getting drunk.

    Withregard to letter #2, why did you stay to the end if the behaviour was that bad? Was the chulent that good? In all seriousness, you should not have stayed as long as you did if the behaviour was that offensive.




    The two letters that started this thread were written by one person who used 2 names.

    If you don’t tell us what neighborhood we can not really get a clear picture.

    You Ayatollas (tzaddikim) should worry about your own Sheine Vieber before telling other people what to do. While you are at it, stop driving like animals.

    <b>Moderators Note:</b> These two letters were written by two seperate people.



    So you say that its ok to get a little tipsy but not very tipsy.

    I do not think that its ok to get a geshmake buzz, but I do not wish to impose my standards on you.


    davidbader: I think that many people are doing teshuva and trying to fix their lives, but we are all responspible for each other, and just remaining silent is not an option. These women who parade the streets looking sometimes worse than goim are creating a hazard b/c they are taking RSO’s shmira off the streets. These women could be to blame for the fatalities we see from traffic accidents,etc. I think there are many groups within klal yisroel… There are people, who maybe they are considered “orthodox” don’t get it at all.

    This is not about pushing the envelope, bec. RSO is always watching you … you will have to answer for ALL your actions one day. Too many people are just marching along, keeping Shabbos, performing mitzvahs but they have no kesher with Hashem or understanding of their role as a Jew. Too much of what I see looks like rote actions, rather than a struggle (which is what it should be) to emulate Hashem and to subdue one’s base instincts. who in America even talks about the fact that we are supposed to be kedoshim, not gourmet gluttons, just thinking about new ways to bring pleasure to our bodies? Try to catch a shiur by Rav Shlomo Brevda, if you can handle the truth, of course.

    BTW: why doesn’t anyone talk about sheitelach? Hashem wants to see a Jewish woman with her head covered AND not covered by someone else’s human hair. In the Gemara it mentions fake hair as an enhancement for the woman’s appearance AT HOME, in front of her husband ONLY. This was only for a woman whose own hair was thinnning, etc. Then in Europe when women wanted to blend in with the goim and would not cover their hair at all,prob. for safety reasons, the tzadekkeses among them opted for the sheitel because at least it covered their own hair, BUT it was done because of the extreme circumstances. WHY ARE SHEITELACH ALLOWED NOW? THEY ARE A DISGRACE TO US!! I asked one hosheve Rebbitzin who wears a “tzniusdik” sheitel why Rabbonim do not speak up about sheitlach and she said ” because if it were not for sheitlach, many women would not cover their hair at all.” I refuse to think like that of our noshim tzidkonius. This same Rebbitzin suggested that wearing a sheitel makes one look mentchlich. You see, now to look like a mench you must look LIKE A GOY! Such comments discourage women who MUST feel inside that the sheitel they are wearing are far from Yiddishe tznius, but the pressure is too much to withstand. Looking acceptable or even impressive to the goim, dressing to kill, smearing your face with five pounds of make-up is not A MITZVAH. A jew is supposed to live for OLAM HABA, NOT BE COMPLETELY FOCUSED ON MAKING A HIT IN OLAM HAZE. For us to be a light onto the nations, we have to have spiritual goals. We have to remember WHO WE ARE!!


    Wow – what a post to wake up to after a peaceful and beautiful Shabbos.

    I have to say, this disgusting and judgemental attitude is what drove ME as a teenage girl off the derech for many years. B”H, in mid-life I’m back and now I’m frum “l’shmah” — not because a teacher tells me how many buttons need to be buttoned or that the slit in my skirt is “inappropriate” and “beckoning.”

    If you can’t stand girls dressing inappropriately at your shul kiddush (and frankly, I wonder how inappropriate a Brooklyn girl can really be in shul of all places–a sleeve that touches the elbow on a shmaltzy day???), the solution is simple – avoid the kiddush and be holy. Your actions will surely influence the Klal. OR move to those places where you will be most comfortable. I lost a lot of weight and scrupulously avoid the kiddush food where Tayva tempts me to try the kugel. I’m sure if your Tayva is so strong that these teenage girls tempt you, you should avoid these places as well. For your health.

    Tznius seminars don’t work and nasty attitudes just cause sinas chinam. Be religious from the INSIDE out and people will respect you and want to please you. Tell others what they should be doing and people will resent you. It’s ALL over Pirkei Avos. Read it and learn.


    So letter #1 is recommending we take a que from the Charedim in Eretz Yisroel. How about we do that and have someone at the next kiddush throw acid in the face of these girls.

    Or throw bags of garbage at them like I saw a group of Charedim once do to a group of Russian Jews in their 80’s/ They survived the anti-semitism of the Communists and came to see Eretz Yisroel, and this is what they saw (or victimized with) while in Mea Shearim.

    And also how classeles is that author who refers to his friends daughters as “chayos”. I think he needs to be fixed.


    I’m confused about the point here. We all know there are issues out there. The question is how to deal with it. You could take the Betar Tznius Patrol approach and throw acid on them, which will obviously not solve anything, or you can try dealing with this B’Nachat.

    My personal opinion is that its up to the families to deal with this issue, preferably early on. Perhaps the schools should invest more on education, but asking a Pulpit Rabbi (who they may see once a week) to solve these deeply ingrained attitudes is just being unreasonable.



    While you are correct that the laws of tzniut do apply to everyone, Rabbi Falk’s book on tzniut does not accurately reflect actual halachah. Rabbi Y. H. Henkin in his article in *Tradition* a few years ago corrects many errors in that sefer.


    The problem with these two “letters” is that neither are them are written with any intelligence. Tznius is a very important issue but no one is going to listen to a raving lunatic. It has to be handled with modesty and class. The way to combat tznius is through increasing womens shiruim on the subject and by giving some power to the rebetzins of the local community. Tznius is a female issue and women don’t want to bossed around by their husbands on issues men can’t even relate to. Instead of saying all these nasty things and comparing your benos yaacov to goyim, why don’t you try to deal with the issue with some ahava and seichol.


    Not sure I care much for the wording of the letter but this is a known problem in our communities that of “Shabbos alcoholics.”

    Mrs. L

    The letter writer is absolutely correct in his statement regarding the current dress code. I went to a wedding recently and was left speechless by the curent trend. It seems that the newest style dress has the look of an enlarged childrens dress, more specifically, it is empire style and above the knee. The colors of these ugly dresses are very loud. So basically youre looking at an adult in a three year olds dress. Oh, did I mention the shmear on the face. If the lights went out, you need not fret. The shimmer on these faces can make any room flourescent.

    Ladies, have you lost your minds! Very few of these young ladies looked Jewish. As a matter of fact, they didnt even look like cultured goyim. They could easily have blended in with the Puerto Ricans who live in my neighborhood. Tight, loud, garrish, you get the picture.

    Husbands, where are you? Are you proud of you aishes chayil and/or of your daughter. Or have you also sunk so low that you like to proudly show off the goods amongst your friends and then watch their reaction for their approval. This is a goyish outlook at its worst.

    Ladies, know you you look like women of ill repute. Men, know that you are comfortable with that! For Shame!!


    There is a tremendous, compelling, thoughtful and sensitive new book “Sometimes You Are What You Wear! An Argument for Tzniut – Modesty” by Eliyahu Safran – that presents this tough subject in terms and with an approach that is so very different and quite convincing. There is no preaching; the author makes you think with dignity and respect for yourself. Spread the word… It will make a difference for those who want to honestly confront this challenge. SEE: http://www.modestybook.com Share it


    A few of the posts here make clear that THEY are the tzinius problem. Coming and defending the indefensible. Trying to justify the unjustifiable. Attempting to explain away the TZINIUS CRISIS.

    Reading above (the few) posts saying the old cliches that “its a womans issue, leave it to the woman”, “men should go away and not look”, etc. etc. reminds us all why it is absolutely imperative for the men to take the bull by the horn and absolutely insure that their wives and daughters are NOT ALLOWED to go outside without full adherence to ALL conducts of proper Jewish Tzinius.



    It’s all about PRIORITIES. In a home with TORAHDIGER PRIORITIES there’s much more of a chance that TZNIUS will follow. (But a house where there’s a T.V., you can FUGETABOUTIT.)

    AHealthy and Tzniusdigger Summer


    JudySL: some people are just afraid of the truth. They want to be patted on the head, honored, “approved of”. Chas v’shalom anyone should say anything that may insinuate that what they are doing is even a little bit wrong. They are even willing to “go off the derech” only because their majesty will NOT be told what to do. That is not a Jewish way. (If you criticize a wise person they will love you for it.) WE CAN NOT DO WHATEVER WE WANT! We are servants of Hashem and although the American propaganda has brainwashed us into thinking that we can just do what “feels” right, that is nonsense. We have to finally come to understand ALREADY that being “holy” (as you put it) is NOT an option, it is A COMMANDMENT GIVEN TO US. Of course, we ALL have a y.h. but let’s at least not lie to ourselves. Let it be Hashem’s will that we the holy Jewish nation wake up from our slumber and understand that it is not a free for all and that we have a King and A Master as well as a Father who will not tolerate us dressing as we see fit and looking the other way if others dress immodestly. We are one neshama, and what we do or do not do hurts the Klal. With everything that is going on around us, we can no longer remain arrogant and just change shuls, neighborhoods, and bury our heads in the sand. We have to speak even if others hurl their unfair insults at us.


    Of course this problem is in Flatbush, and in other communities, and the letter writer is smart for pointing out that he isn’t a “kol korieh” or “taliban” type- he’s just a Flatbush ba’al habos who is looking for some semblance of tznius and proper decorum by a yiddeshe simcha. However, this tznius issue (dressed to kill) is not only in Flatbush (or Monsey, or the Five Towns, etc…), it is alive and well in Lakewood as well. That’s right the mokom torah that is supposed to be “fanatical” in its standards. And it isn’t only by simchos. Actually, by weddings for example, the proper fashion is to dress “conservatively,” I’m more disgusted by the casual dress of women as they do their every day errands. It’s because of behavior like this that some communities have separate hours of shopping etc…

    It is almost childish that when you give a woman the “right” to dress fashionably, yet expect them to be responsible to uphold the proper tznius as well, they fail miserably. If someone can’t handle the responsibility of dressing like a bas yisroel, while being in style at the same time, then one of those two things have to stop. Let’s hope it isn’t dressing like a bas yisroel.


    Why do Jewish women feel they have to flaunt everything? If it attracts men, it is wrong. A woman has to be attractive to her husband and look neat and properly covered up at all times, in and out of the house.If her appearance causes men to look at her, she is doing something wrong. We should not be letting goyishe fashion designers dictate how we should be dressing and the Jewish clothing manufacturers can fashion very nice tzniusdik clothing. Those who dress otherwise probably know better but, don’t want to be told what to do. I don’t know why the writers of these letters continues to daven in such a place and if his Rov tolerates such behavior, he should chosose another Rov and another shul. It sounds like a house of sin to me and not a proper place to daven.


    Aleen1-There is no such place as a CONSERVATIVE or REFORM SHUL, therefore you are either in shul or not but when it is between Conservative,Reform, and Orthodox a shul is only where Orthodox go.

    ishbainanoshim- That statement is not true. I personally know frum families who have T.V. and the tzniusness is top notch.

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