September 17, 2008 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #588267
PETA: What do you think?
If you hate them, but think they have one or two things right, or vice versa, et cetera, please outline in detail what you hate and what you like, or what you don’t care about, please explain.
I really don’t have much to write because I agree with 95% of their ideals, that is, 100% minus their stance on animal testing for medicines, because human life is more valuable to humans than animal lives are.September 17, 2008 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #624466
They reduce human life to the same value as animal life – while they sanctimoniously dispatched tens of thousands of cats and dogs at their facilities. Their ideology is “mutar bein haadam vehabeheima ein..”
I don’t even bother hating them; they are beyond contempt and a fringe movement that unfortunately gets headlines from time to time.September 17, 2008 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #624467
People for Eating Tasty Animals (PETA)?September 17, 2008 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #624468
I love eating meat, chicken, turkey, (but not lamb, for some reason it’s just too sad Baaaa)(& not veal, the torture they put that BABY animal through is too horrendous).
If someone wants to be a vegetarian, I respect their decisions, (who am I to tell someone what to eat or what they MUST like to eat).
If I lived on a farm I too would not eat animals, (because, how can you eat something you know you’re going to name, and be friends with?). I grew up with many pets, and I loved some of them dearly.
As for PETA, They can do what they want like any other activists groups, but I DO NOT support the EXTREMISTS (that goes for everything, from religion to politics). I’m of course talking about the one’s who scream & throw things at people wearing fur or eating meat.September 18, 2008 2:18 am at 2:18 am #624469
I am also part of peta … People Eating Tasty Animals (lol)
If you have ever looked at their website, while their ideals might not be bad, the level to which they carry them (remember the ad “holocaust on a plate?”) and the fact that they raise animals to the status of human beings … (i believe it was Pamela Anderson who said that if she had to save a dog or a human from drowning, she would save the dog) is what is disgusting, and makes the entire organization intolerableSeptember 18, 2008 4:30 am at 4:30 am #624470
anon for thisParticipant
Give Me a Break,
The PETA slogan is, “Animals are not ours to eat, wear, experiment on, or use for entertainment.” But according to the Torah, animals do belong to us to use responsibly & without inflicting unnecessary cruelty (tza’ar baalai chayim). They believe animals have rights; I believe that people have responsibilites which include treating animals appropriately.
Their views on animal testing are a natural extension of this motto. Even if I agree with some of their positions, I could never support them, because their viewpoint is diametrically opposed to mine.September 18, 2008 11:00 am at 11:00 am #624471
They are SICK.September 18, 2008 11:07 am at 11:07 am #624472
Remember the 5 main categories: ????, ????, ??, ???, ?????
Each level on the hierarchy was created to serve its superior. So how could human beings denounce shechita and the like? Sounds just like the Nazi YM”S practice of calling the Yidden “Hund” (dog), and their dogs “Mensch”.September 18, 2008 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #624473
Can someone please tell me what PETA is?? Forgive my ignorance but I’m from the U.K…September 18, 2008 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #624474
PETA? Find out how many of them are Pro-Life vs. Pro-Death aka Pro-Choice?September 18, 2008 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #624475
i will now use Give Me a Break’s logic to agree with another group, and ill assume hell agree.
i agree with 95% of the actions of the NAZIS. see their econimic and military growth was great, it secured their nation, and expanded their rule. they were for the peole, creating jobs and and econmy that helped the people. cars that were affordable, electricity was spread throught the country. just the killing of jews, that was bad.
now, Give Me a Break, do you see how silly you sound!
just because peta has a good quality, does not mean you should support them. (i will argue they have no good qualities, for they are all based on principles that are evil in nature.) i hope you do not own pets, because they believe you are not allowed to. no dogs, cats, fish, ferrets. i hope you never went to a zoo or aquarium. cant have those either. hope you never used bug spray, or roach traps, or a mouse trap perhaps, they believe these are all cruel.
i hope you do not put on teffilin, or use a sefer torah or mezuzos, because they believe religions that uses animal hides in practice are evil religions. and those tzitzis made form wool, take them off.
before supporting a religion like peta, maybe you should go on youtube, and see some of the evil speeches the founders have given. peta, greenpeace, and any other cult group that wants to give rights of humans to animals and trees are just that, cults filled with kooks.September 18, 2008 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #624476
I agree with the idea that animals are not ours to abuse and certain methods such as factory farming are wrong (the way they stuff dozens of live chickins into small crates by kapporos and meat plants seems esspecialy wrong to me). That being said the torah does allow us to use animals for food and as a religios jew I beleive human life and suffering is Infinitly more important then animal life and suffering, I also agree with anon for this that it isnt that animals have rights but rather that as humans we have a responsability to treat them well, and this is were peta went wrong.September 18, 2008 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #624477
I also suggest anyone intrested on an intresting view on animal rights in yiddishkeit read a book entitled ‘Of Man and Beast:our relationship with animals in jewish law and thought.’ by rav nooson slifkin it is a bit hard to come by but you can get it on yashar books web site or on rabbi slifkins web site at http://WWW.zootorah.comSeptember 18, 2008 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #624478
I would definitely NOT suggest any books by Mr. Slifkin. Despite all the howls of the liberals, his had at least one book banned by the Gedolim for very good reason.
He actually believes the world is millions of years old.
Now all the liberals on the religious-left can come and defend him, defenseless as he is. (I’m sure if I criticized Moses Mendelsohn, some of the same crown would defend him too.)September 18, 2008 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #624479
As with many things, PETA is a mixed bag.
They certainly deserve credit for raising the issue of animal awareness. I think we can all agree that animals should not be treated cruelly and they have done much good work toward raising awareness of the issue.
However, I think that many (if not all) of us can agree that they have gone too far on many issues relating to animals. The ideal is to find the middle ground — the shvil hazahav. Eating animals is fine, but abusing them and killing them needlessly and for sport (not to mention abusing them) is wrong.
So, in short, PETA deserves both credit and blame.
The WolfSeptember 18, 2008 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #624480
PETA lost all moral authority when they sent a letter to Yaaser Arafat protesting the use of donkeys in terrorist attacks against Israel. PETA didn’t care about the PLO’s killing of innocent Israeli’s. They were only concerned that the donkeys not be harmed.September 18, 2008 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #624481
im very happy about peta
when else in the entire history of the world, in all civilizations that ever existed, in every culture, when else could such a thing even have been be IMAGINED!
except in the days of intense darkness before the MoshiachSeptember 18, 2008 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #624482
“People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.”
I too am pro-choice.
I do put on tefillin (kosher gassos at that), but I DON’T use a Sefer Torah. Only ba’alei k’riah do.
The world IS several billion years old – that DOESN’T conflict with the Torah.
Why is eating animals fine?September 18, 2008 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #624483
The various SPCA’s raised the issue of animal cruelty long before the freaks at PETA reared their ugly heads.September 18, 2008 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #624484
And?September 18, 2008 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #624485
PETA justifies and praises criminal and dangerous activity (vandalism and arson):
From their web site:September 19, 2008 1:08 am at 1:08 am #624486
Give me a break, The torah very clearly states that eating animals is okay if the animals are treated correctly Ujm, the world has been proven to be billions of years old beyond any shadow of a reasonable doubt (contrary to what some peapole in the frum community would lead you to beleive either out of ignorance or delusion) and it Dosnt conflict withthe torah.September 19, 2008 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #624487
Yes, but ideally we should NOT eat animals, because in the times before Noach we were not ALLOWED to kill for food.September 19, 2008 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #624488
“the world has been proven to be billions of years old beyond any shadow of a reasonable doubt”
could you give us a brief rundown or just a list of some of the proofs
i would be very interestedSeptember 19, 2008 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #624489
“the world has been proven to be billions of years old beyond any shadow of a reasonable doubt”
could you give us a brief rundown or just a list of some of the proofs
i would be very interested
perhaps you are referring to uranium or carbon dating?
perhaps the spectrographic evidence of the universes expansion?
the light that is coming from stars thousands of light years away?
the presence of oil deposits (which take millions of years to form from decaying matter)?
are these the kinds of undisputable proofs?
would you like to add some more before i dispute their indisputability?September 19, 2008 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #624490
Give me a break,
I would agree with you however the torah and chazal dont seem to say that eating meat is not perferrable, on the contrary they seem to say that on shabbos and yom tov it is perferrable to eat meat. (although i suppose one can argue that to just eat animals evreyday like how most pepole do these days may be wrong.)September 19, 2008 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #624491
There are few, if any, “neighborhood shochtim” anymore – it’s all done on a large scale a.k.a. “factory farming.” Also, we have brains and if we think, we realize that it’s not right for an animal to die just so we can eat meat. There’s no issur in being veg[etari]an. Just because the Torah says “You may eat meat” does not mean “You SHALL eat meat.”September 19, 2008 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #624492
Give Me a Break:
“Also, we have brains and if we think, we realize that it’s not right for an animal to die just so we can eat meat.” i have brains, and i truly dont see how one doesnt have the right to eat meat! who says, and when did they say it?September 21, 2008 1:29 am at 1:29 am #624493
Give me a break:
Calm down! nobody said you have to eat meat, just that if you dont feel its wrong thats okay.
The methods you mentioned plus the overwelming fossil evidence: no fossils from one layer have been found in another (humans with dinosaurs, dinos with manmmoths ect.) that didnt move after it was formed and easily traced to were it came from, and a couple of times that have been well proven to be hoaxes,evidence from ice core samples varve layers (from riverbeds look it up online) among others.September 21, 2008 1:52 am at 1:52 am #624494
This entire post has been bothering me since I first read it. Peta is a terrorist organization that is living proof of what happens when you have misplaced chesed (and values) Animals do not have rights nor are the various mitzvohs given in their regards given for their benefit. They were given to us in order to make us better people. When a person engages in behavior that hurts an animal it affects negatively the person who is doing the act. It makes them meaner (as well as reveals a very unpleasant aspect and nature that the person posses.) and further changes them into a cruel being.
Next, animals were put here for our use. They pull our wagons, carry heavy loads, provide transportation and when needed they are killed to provide meat, leather, medicinal benefits, as well as many other uses for their bodies. To deny the animal this is to deny it of the ability to fulfill the tafkid/purpose of it’s creation. (This is not to mention or go into the gilgulim that possessed the animal so that when a person eats it and makes a bracha it would get a tikun).
As for logically what is right, well a lot of people in Tanach far greater than “Give me a break”, who have thought that they were doing what’s right and paid the consequences as a result. It is the same thinking that will enable this poster to be pro-choice and yet save the animals in the same breath. (or in other words equate an animal’s existence to be higher than a person.) In response to that, we are either dealing with a person who puts his logic above the Torah and it’s Rabbonim or an individual who has too much time on his hand and loves to watch as well as he entices the people on the board so that they will yell and scream at each other (so he will add topics of sensitive nature just to diminish the worth of this sight).September 21, 2008 3:16 am at 3:16 am #624495
I myself am a vegetarian but i don’t preach to everyone else what to believe. this is a personal decision. im not necesarily a supporter of peta though. like i said a personal decisionSeptember 21, 2008 6:27 am at 6:27 am #624496
SarahB: just understand that if this personal decision is based on cruelty to animals, then you are treading on dangerous territory. it is very possibly kfira, as youre stating that hashem is cruel, as he allows us to eat animals, and have them do work for us!September 21, 2008 6:32 am at 6:32 am #624497
Just remember that the nazis yemach sh’mm v’zichrom had more rachmonis on animals than they did on people. Their ‘rachmonis’ that they have for the animals is seriously misguided. They have a goal of ZERO meat or anything from living products. Also dont forget this is an organization that had the chutzpa to complain to the PLO about using a donkey as a suicide bomber. The heck with the people it killed. The poor donkey!September 21, 2008 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #624498
Being vegetarian because of cruelty to animals is NOT k’fira! When HaShem allowed us to eat meat, the slaughtering process was NOTHING compared to the horror it is today! If anything, YOU’RE the kofer, because we have an issur of tza’ar ba’alei chayim!September 21, 2008 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #624499
actually the fossil evidence presents an extremely serious problem for evolution. it shows only sudden appearances and extinctions and no gradual change whatsoever. richard dawkins (a higher echelon famous evolutionist) and his colleagues have freely admitted this. that in fact is what has led to the recent theories of punctuated equilibrium ( a resurrection of the previously discredited “hopeful monsters” proposition), which have replaced darwinism (at least in the higher centers of research, it hasnt really trickled down to the high school level, for the most part)
but that has nothing whatsoever to the the lack of indisputability of your proofs. if you want to believe in fossil evidence, go ahead.
now the following assumes that you believe in a Creator, if you dont i have nothing to say of meaning for you.
the Creator created a MATURE world, in seven days, seven 24 hour periods, (we dont need to say that a day wasnt a day or whatever. you could say that but you dont need to). the Boreh created a mature world.
Adam wasnt a seed, he was a grown man. the trees he saw werent seeds they were mature trees many years old. although dirt is composed of sand and decomposed living matter, modified by bacteria and worms and ants, and other complex processes, nevertheless Adam stood on dirt the day he was created.
and it was an earth full of lead and iron and copper and oil and sapphires and diamonds.
diamonds and oil that take hundreds of thousands of years to create.
they were all there when Hashem created the universe, because he simply created a mature universe.
he certainly may have created carbon and uranium isotopes in a manner of a mature world as well as everything else, just as he placed stars in the world trillions and trillions of miles away. He placed them there for man to see. Adam saw them the first night he was born, he didnt have to wait trillions of years for the light to reach him.
but any scientist using his scientific tools and methods would see a world created billions of years ago, yes?
im not going to elaborate here. any maimon should know the following already. if you dont understand it i wont be able to teach it to you.
Hashem created the world for man. He created it for man to exercise BECHIRAH.
if all of the evidence of man pointed to the creation being merely 5769 years ago there would be no room for disbelief, there would be little room for apikorsus.
THERE WOULD BE NO WAY TO SEPARATE BETWEEN THOSE WHO HAVE ABSOLUTE EMUNAH IN THE G-D OF SCIENCE, AND THOSE WHO HAVE EMUNAH IN CHAZAL. there would not be the ordeal we must go through in the days before Moshiach, whether we will belive in man or in Hashem.September 21, 2008 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #624500
Even if the hashem created a mature world why would he create bones of thousands of species of animals and remains of human civilazations that either never existed or were never lived in? there are still stars whos light is just reaching us today (that wernt visable a few yeas ago) why would it be neccesary to make stars from billions of light years away visable to make the world mature? and before these things were discovered there were still athiests and apikorsim so these things arnt necessary for there to be bechira. besides you have no proof to anything you said: you cant prove that the star light was instantly here less then six thousand years ago even though that goes against evreything we know about how the world works, while i by knowing the speed of light and how long it takes fossils ect. to form have a very strong physical proof that the world was here for way more then six thousand years. Again i beleive all this does not conflict with the torah so why beleive the way with less physical proof backing it up.September 21, 2008 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #624501
Give Me a Break
Being vegetarian because of cruelty to animals is NOT k’fira! When HaShem allowed us to eat meat, the slaughtering process was NOTHING compared to the horror it is today! If anything, YOU’RE the kofer, because we have an issur of tza’ar ba’alei chayim!”
are you taking some type of medicine that effects your brain? in the bais hamikdash they were up to their knees in blood on erev pesach. animals were being slaughtered all over the place, and i guarantee you it was not pretty. on yom kippur we chucked a live goat down a clif! something tells me peta would go nuts if we did this nowadays! bu io forget, accorsing to you, god isnt merciful! just because one slaughter house “possibly” did not act appropriately (and agri still has not been brought up on cruelty to animal charges, just 31 instances of hiring teens) does not make eating meat cruel. and yes, if you say eating meat is cruel, then you are a kofer.
on another note, every person who has teens put up their succah, and clean their cars before pesach, and illegals to clean their house, you are all just as liable under the law as agri, so watch where you point blame.September 21, 2008 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #624502
Even if the hashem created a mature world why would he create bones of thousands of species of animals and remains of human civilazations that either never existed or were never lived in?
they were species that did live. species are always becoming extinct, even today
they were civilizationss that did exist. many civilizations have been destroyed.
how long ago did this occur? (see last post re. carbon and uranium)
there are still stars whos light is just reaching us today (that wernt visable a few yeas ago)
interesting, i never knew that.
and before these things were discovered there were still athiests and apikorsim
obviously, but never even barely approaching the extent of today (see my last post re. the days before Moshiach))
so these things arnt necessary for there to be bechira. besides you have no proof to anything you said: you cant prove that the star light was instantly here less then six thousand years ago
thats true i cant prove that
even though that goes against evreything we know about how the world works, while i by knowing the speed of light and how long it takes fossils ect.
not at all (see last post, did you not understand anything i said?)
Again i beleive all this does not conflict with the torah so why beleive the way with less physical proof backing it up.
i agree it doesnt conflict with the Torah, so why believe science when you can believe your Zadies and their fathers and their fathers, back to Chazal, back to Moshe Rabbeinu, back to HashemSeptember 21, 2008 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #624503
Mariner: You are wasting your time and breath. There is no point stating logic against one who just wants to create a tummel on the boards.September 21, 2008 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #624504
Fine, if you wish, believe that I am a kofer. Since you don’t know me, I pretty much don’t care what you think of me.
Listen to this – The world was originally supposed to be vegetarian. But after Noach’s time we were permitted to eat meat, BECAUSE Noach had cared for the animals aboard the Ark. But HaShem would rather we not eat meat, and there are two proofs to that. First of all, the only reason we are permitted to consume meat is because Noach cared for the animals, so, in essence, the animals of the Diluvial Flood generation owed Noach their lives. But do the animals of this day and age owe us their lives, after all the torture we put them through?! Their lives are pure horror from beginning to end! Did you know that the hens that give your eggs have their beaks seared off and have less than a paper’s space to stand, not to mention the huge amounts of ammonia from the uncleaned piles of feces? Second, the very animals we are permitted to eat are all herbivorous. Don’t you think HaShem is trying to hint something to us? Sure, we may be ALLOWED to eat meat (see reason #1 for my thoughts that we are NOT allowed to), but does that mean we HAVE to? “Just as the creatures that I have allowed you to eat consume no flesh, so too, you shall not consume the flesh of another living spirit.” Maybe that’s what HaShem is subtly telling us? As per your example of Korban Pesach, ddon’t you know that the Jews of the time were devoted shepherds? Just look at Moshe and David! You can eat your meat if you want (maybe not), but that CERTAINLY doesn’t make a veg[etari]an who is such because of compassion for animal a follower of heresy.
Who says I just want to create a tumult on the boards?September 21, 2008 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #624505
If dinos and manmmoths ect. did exist they lived and died before humans and eachother: tyronosaurus remains are never found with fossils of earlier dinos dinos are never found with mamoth or sabertooth tiger’s remains and these are never found with the bones or remains of humans or modern animals just from these layers alone you could prove that the world is more then six thousand years old ,now we also know the speed of light for a fact and there is nothing to indicate anywere that it has changed.September 21, 2008 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #624506
Our zaidies also beleived the sun went around the earth The maharal (nesivos olam nesiv 14) and r yonasan eybshits among them (yaaros dvash 1:4) and this has been proven as a fact to be wrong.September 21, 2008 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #624507
Maybe the sun really DOES go around the Earth, and the telescopes at NASA are all wrong?
Just kidding. I am a “believer” in neo-Darwinism as well as a lover of animals.September 21, 2008 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #624508
Our zaidies also beleived the sun went around the earth The maharal (nesivos olam nesiv 14) and r yonasan eybshits among them (yaaros dvash 1:4) and this has been proven as a fact to be wrong.
What do you mean? Do you realize that the sun actually does revolve around the earth? It is relative, as in the principle of relativity, Einstein. Helio or geocentrism is a matter of perspective, not reality. For a simple example, if you turn on a pocket battery-powered fan, the blade spins AROUND the base, but if you grab the blade, the base spins. The sun and earth are both “flying through space” and move in a line more than one revolving another, if you step back far enough. We do live on the earth so it can properly be said that the sun and stars revolve around the earth.
B’kitzur, to say that they were wrong, IMHO is supercilious and false.September 21, 2008 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #624509
in addition, I wanted to mention re: peta, these people are lowly dirty disgusting people. They hold that we have no rights to use animals but they give much less respect to humans. I’ll leave the rest unsaid.September 21, 2008 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #624510
First of all the planets move because of gravity the sun has the biggest gravatational pull in the solar system and causes all the other planets to move it is therefore more meaningfull to say that the sun is in the center and the earth moves around it since the sun causes the other planets to move as they do (the fact that the sun is what causes the other planets to move has been proven as a fact and we can make predictions based on it how the planets will move and how comets flying by will travel.)
second of all: even according to what you said the theory of relativity would say that niether is circling the other and the achronim argued that with such arguments as “if the earth was moving we would feel the wind” and that the earth revolving around the sun went against storis in tanach such as yehoshua stopping the sun (and not the earth) and not that niether view is true or falseSeptember 22, 2008 12:16 am at 12:16 am #624511
If somone beleives modern day methods of preparing animals to be eaten are cruel and therefore ossur (wich is what i think is what Give Me A Break beleives) and that one shouldnt benefit from them i dont think you should call them a koferSeptember 22, 2008 11:39 am at 11:39 am #624512
Give Me a Break
Do you really believe that Hashem would specifically allow us to eat animals but would prefer that we dont?! Do you think that Hashem CH”V does not have the strength to tell us not to do something that He’d prefer we don’t??? Why are we told to eat meat and fish on Shabbos? What about all the Korbonos? And WHAT about Sa’ir La’azazel?????
Re: your comment to Bentzy18, if he is right that is the best case scenerio. If you truly believe what you say, you belong in Cheirem. I am sickened by your comments.September 22, 2008 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #624513
Thank you for the defense. But I think it’s hopeless to argue with “mariner.” Don’t forget that you’re a “kofer” too.September 22, 2008 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #624514
You really didn’t read my comment. I said quite clearly that the animals of those times owed their lives to people, which is CERTAINLY not the case today. “Do you think that Hashem CH”V does not have the strength to tell us not to do something that He’d prefer we don’t???” Sure he does, but don’t forget, we are ALLOWED to.
Why do I belong in cheirem?
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