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Menachem, I stand corrected on one point. Rambam does indeed hold that every prophet needs to provide a sign in order that we accept him. Multiple times even (Y.H. 10,2) and every single sign has to come true. I was thinking according to Rashi Deuteronomy 18,21 that a sign is not required except on the rare occasion when the prophet is challenged. Rambam is also quite clear that a prophet, with all the signs in the world cannot change a halacha.
I would like to correct something I wrote earlier: “The truth is that the Lubavicher rebbe didn’t write even one sefer.”
As far as I recall he did actually write one sefer before he became rebbe. It was his Haggada Shel Pesach where he cites and discusses the various halachic opinions related to the Seder night.
Menachem, this was posted in other threads, regarding the posuk and Rashi you mentioned:
The Riva says the left/right mentioned in the pasuk refers to Rabbonim telling us not to do a mitzvah such as Shofar on Shabbos, or Arba Minim on Shabbos. It only refers to a mitzvah that they are telling us NOT to do.The Yerushalmi says in Horios that the pasuk means only if they say right is right and left is left. If they say otherwise, you do not listen.
There are many shitos against Rashi. Indeed, both Rambam and Ramban do not pasken like Rashi in this regard. There is a Sifre which Rashi bases it on, but again, many question the Sifre, and there are Gemoros in both bavli and Yerushalmi that say otherwise. R’ Ovadia Yosef reconciles the two views as I mentioned above – you have to confront the Rav if you think he erred. Until you confront him, you do not listen. The Yad HaMelech states that if you listen when you think he erred just because you think you have to listen, you are required to bring a korbon chatas. Only after confronting the Rav with the opposing view, and he stands by what he said, are you required to listen.
Qwert, it sounds like your rabbi is unfamiliar with communities that have strong rabbinic leadership. Talmidim of any gadol take their words as Torah misinai; go to any Yeshiva and you’ll see this, except for places like brisk where lots of guys go with no intention of being machniah themselves to rav avrohom Yehoshua, but this is an exception. In yeshivos we say that so and so got “farkoift” on such and such gadol.
Lubavitch has an entirely different look on their leader, which has been explained a ton on this and other threads. They think he’s omniscient, able to help them, fit to offer prayers to, doing mitzvos because he said to do them, etc….
I don’t think rav miller was “perfect,” as no one is. Rav miller himself writes that even Moshe rabbeinu was only infallible when speaking nevuah, but that on his own he could and did make mistakes, on his level, which of course we have no understanding of.
I wrote about why two prominent American gedolim said not to get involved in the anti-neo chabad controversy. Both of those gedolim changed their minds around the same time, as rav pam and rav miller were niftar in 2001. We find many gedolim misjudged people, going as far back as geichazi. Rav Moshe also trusted his son in law…. And if you’re an east sider, well, enough said, you know the stories probably better than i do.
Just as an aside, one of the big roshei yeshiva said that the twin towers fell after the protection of the “two towers” in new york were gone. That stayed with me for 2 decades.
Re, Thanksgiving; rav moshe doesn’t say it’s a mitzvah or that you should do it, just that it’s allowed. Many good jews did it years ago, but the yeshiva world completely abandoned the practice 25-odd years ago. It’s also dependent not so much on halacha issues but on historical facts. Rav Moshe didn’t speak English, and presumably relied on information from people. Rav miller was a college graduate. The latter said that historically the holiday was meant to thank the Christian deity based on research, so this isn’t a machlokes in halacha so much as in netzius. I’m not saying one isn’t allowed to follow rav moshe in this regard, just “food” for thought.
Re, Rabbi kook. Rac shlomo zalman had a lot bigger things to do than delve into the controversy. I doubt he ever even read the books which were controversial or heard about calling Rembrandt a “tzadik,” edited or the rest. Rav Shlomo zalman wasn’t a zionist. He just sat and learned.
Other talmidim, like rav hutner, publicly distanced themselves from him. but this is a tangential topic.
As for the question about why we would bother paskening on shomayim issues, this question was asked by rishonim. The answer is that whatever we pasken in beis din shel matah, is followed by beis din shel maalah. This is why we have machlokes in mishnah and gemara about chiyuvei krisus, misa bidei shomayim, etc…
To Avira
I don’t consider myself yeshivish and therefore I believe I’m more open minded than you. I respect the entire spectrum of Orthodoxy except of course, Chabad, which is clearly not a legitimate expression of Judaism. There’s a shul on the Lower East Side which is pretty far left,(though it’s officially Orthodox) and I go there occasionally because I like the Rabbi. My Feinstein connections question my attendance but I tell them that I’m a grownup and I can decide for myself what’s right or not. As you can see my attitude doesn’t shtim with someone like Rabbi Miller who felt that his congregants should blindly follow his every word. Just for the record, I’m quite Makpid on every Mitzvah particularly learning, but, and don’t throw me out of the thread for this, I watch some TV. Let me quote my Rav, “A Rabbi is nothing more than a role model and he has no right to tell his congregants what to do. This may not be your way but it works for me.
Lots of good jews get up early to learn. It doesn’t take away from him being a rodef who, while likely well intended, put us all in danger and created a chilul Hashem of “jewish terrorism” where hus disciples praise baruch Goldstein, etc…
To Avira
It seems from your attitude about Rabbi Kahane that you would wish harm on Mr. Ben Gvir. You claim to be Yeshivish and you hang on every word of your Rabbonim. Do they teach hating other Jews or is this your own view? Either way it’s not a good look and the Lubavichers will say that you’re just a hater who decided to also pick on them.
@yankel berel. I have no issue with the history of the Rebbe. I think the only people who think that book speaks negative about the Rebbe are the people who only read the introduction and as one of his own conclusions, there isn’t any negative history there, I think everyone should read it (but I think chaim millers book is much more researched.)
It’s hard for people like us to calculate the level of depth in the rebbe’s Torah. But one thing is seems to everyone clear is the Rebbe was Baki in basically every Sefer printed before the war. To as and I’m not trying to say that there weren’t others, but it’s a chutzpah for people to disrespect the Rebbe, that’s allTo qwerty613
If you are open minded to all proper expressions of Orthodox Judaism and closed to Lubavitch, that says more than wo
rds can describe concerning the shortcomings and fallacies of Lubavitch!!mdd1: “Or you would prefer stam that all reshoim go straight to Gan Eiden even without being killed because they are Jewish?”
I remember reading i(pretty sure it was n the Artscroll biography of R Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld z”l) that he said that as far as he is concerned Eliezer Ben-Yehuda – the founder of modern Hebrew and an apikorus – can be allowed into Gan Eden. However, that’s irrelevant and we had to fight him vehemently in Olam Hazeh.
Qwert, not only can a rov tell his congregation what to do, he has an obligation to do so. He is a mochiach, in a position to give tochacha, as every gadol has done throughout history. Look at the derashos of rishonim and achronim; they’re full of ethical and halachik exhortations…look at the seforim of the chofetz Chaim, including the sefer he’s named after and shmiras halashon.
Not wanting to be told what to do is a human feeling and a good sign of your yichus, because klal yisroel is an am keshei oref, a stubborn nation. Seforim say that when Hashem went to all the nations, he gave them a mitzvah that went against their nature, and they rejected the Torah; Yishmael with znus, eisav with murder…and yisroel was with anochi Hashem, that we need to listen to someone. So you’re in good company! But you need to fight that yatzer hora and humble yourself to an authority of your choosing.
Modern Orthodox rabbis teach that the rabbi’s authority ends in shulchan aruch and doesn’t extend to life decisions or politics, but you’ve done one better and believe that a rov has no authority at all! That’s quite a deviation from even the most liberal sects of observant jews, and it’s a shame that someone who has Orthodox smicha edited told you this idea that a rov is supposed to be a role model. Does he or you have a shred of a source for that statement? Rabbonim make takanos all of the time…in the communities of the chasam sofer, rav hirsch, and everyone else, there were rules, enacted by rabbonim.
The mesilas yeshorim talks about following a rov, comparing it to a a guide in a hedge maze. The mishnah in avos says to sit in the dust of the chachamim, understand that their words are fire, humble yourself to them, and drink in their words with thirst.
Out of town communities are better at this than elsewhere, because usually there’s one or two poskim who the whole community follows. Take a look at what they do in Baltimore, Cleveland, etc…the community follows the ordinances of its rov.
This has nothing to do with being “yeshivish.” When non yeshivish people were exercising in mixed gyms and even mixed swimming in Cleveland out of ignorance, rav hirschfeld, the posek there, along with all of the shul rabbonim, wrote a letter, and put a stop to it. Most of the resistance to listening to rabbis is in in-town places, because there are so many rabbonim and not a lot of central authority.
You’ve discussed your background in candid terms, and i applaud you for embracing observance and getting involved in learning, but to be fully observant means to follow the halachik and hashkafic decisions of rabbonim, who are authorities on yiddishkeit. It doesn’t matter to me if you decide to follow poskim like rabbi hershel Shechter, or others who i personally disagree with on many issues, since the majority of gedolim were against some of their views, but they are established authorities in their communities, even though they’re not “yeshivish.”
If you want sources regarding television, please let me know and I will provide them, but i won’t if you have no plans on accepting them.
Rav miller was no different than any rosh Yeshiva in how his talmidim follow him. In my yeshiva, rav belsky was the final word for most of us in halacha, in chaim berlin, it was rav aharon shechter and rav shraga feivel cohen, in mir the words of rav shmuel birnbaum were Torah misinai…rav miller did succeed in having a shul where he was in a position of Rosh yeshiva/manhig in a time when most people unfortunately went בשרירות לבם, doing what they decided on their own.
I write this in support of qwerty613,
Once a Rebbe becomes a “G-d” there is a real problem. If a Rebbe exhorts his followers to connect with Hashem, that’s terrific. If he tries to replace Hashem, that’s very problematic.
As qwerty613 is broad-minded and loves all streams of authentic Torah Judaism, the fact that he does not appreciate or respect Lubavitch is very telling.
Qwerty613, it is an absolute lie, a perversion of the Torah to say that a Rabbi has no right to tell his congregants what to do. Have you ever heard of mitsvas toychecha (rebuke)?
QWERTY you sure come off like the kinda guy that isn’t tied down to any particular derech. Contrarians like that are a dime a dozen, sitting in the back of Shul always whining about what others are doing without committing to anything meaningful.
Are you too intelligent to find a movement that suits your tastes?
“Just for the record, I’m quite Makpid on every Mitzvah particularly learning, but, and don’t throw me out of the thread for this, I watch some TV.“
😂😂
I’m also makpid on every mitzvah I just eat at Burger King every now and then
ARSo, you missed my point. Try to understand it on it’s own merits. Even if Rav Zonnenfeld really held like that, Rav Miller and many others disagreed. Ramo and many other Achronim hold that one should not say Kaddish for a mumar. Do you understand such a concept as justice, that in the words of the Zohar “it should not look like there is no din and there is no Dayan”?
sechel83: “But one thing is seems to everyone clear is the Rebbe was Baki in basically every Sefer printed before the war.”
Oh no. Not another Lubavicher who makes baseless claims about what “everybody” knows. Where on earth did you get that he was baki in every sefer printed before the war?
Arso, thanks for that, because i wasn’t 100% sure if my post earlier about being pleased with reshoim going into gan eden was oisgehalten… But if that quote is true, then baruch she’kivanti.
Qwert, Re, ben gvir – i don’t know why when it comes to opposing Lubavitch, you’re alright with bringing out their issues(in a very strong way which is off putting to most people), but you consider it hateful if someone has a halachik/hashkafic view of meir kahana which you disagree with? I have no hatred for him or his misguided followers; i believe based on the reasons above that there are serious, dangerous issues with their ideas, and that they have the status of rodfim. Many gedolim have said that those who go on har habayis are also rodfim, because they’re putting jews in danger.
Does that mean i wish them harm? Absolutely not. We’re not in a position to act on this sort of din rodef in our time and place, as we could end up doing more harm than good if we would do something to physically oppose them. Violence isn’t the derech hatorah that we’re taught in any case, and i am not a posek who can decide dinei nefashos. But in principle the idea of a rodef logically applies to them.
And that’s why I don’t think kahanah was a martyr or that he died al kidush Hashem. He wasn’t killed because of his Judaism, his performance of a mitzvah, or anything else normally associated with that term. If a jew is mugged and killed by a robber, we don’t say he’s a martyr. kahana was killed because the arabs saw him and his political movement as a threat, which it actually was; if someone runs into an arab village screaming about throwing them out of their homes, and he ends up killed, we just say he was foolish… he’s not any sort of martyr.
I think kahanah had good intentions, and took the zionism that was very popular in his time to a militant extent; kind of like a Jewish malcolm X.
To Avira
I would be interested in your sources regarding TV, but if it’s just Rabbi Miller’s opinion that TV is considered Sefarim Chitzonim that’s just his view and my Rabbonim totally rejected it. I’m glad that we’re able to engage in a civil discourse despite our differences.To Coffee addict
Prove your contention that watching TV is equivalent to eating a cheeseburger.
mdd1 I did not miss your point at all. You asked whether one “would prefer stam that all reshoim go straight to Gan Eiden even without being killed because they are Jewish?”
And I was commenting that there is nothing wrong with preferring that all Jewish resha’iim go to Gan Eden without being punished. But it’s not up to us to decide that, and the fact is that virtually no one goes to Gan Eden without being punished. Nonetheless, why would any of us “prefer” that resha’im go to Gehinnom? What would we gain by preferring that?
To the group(mainly the Yeshivish)
Since I’ve revealed some personal information let me share some more. Rabbi Dr. Mechel Schiffenbauer ZTL and I are(were) cousins. His father and my paternal grandmother were siblings. I can attest that Mechel was far greater than what you’ve been told in the FJJ. Every Erev Shabbos for years he’d call me(my wife usually answered, she was crazy about him). Do you know why he called, I mean we didn’t have that much in common. He told me numerous times. It’s because I was his only observant relative. Our families came to these shores in 1912 and basically everyone fell victim to the American spiritual Holocaust. On my mother’s side, I do have a fantastic modern Orthodox cousin. Interestingly Mechel connected with him a few years before Covid took him because one of my cousin’s daughters was in Mechel’s class(he was a Biology professor). The point is that Mechel, myself, and my cousin represent three different expressions of Orthodoxy, but we respect and love each other because we all believe in Hashem, Torah, and Mitzvos. Is that so difficult for people in the Yeshiva world to understand? Edited Again I rail against Chabad because they only believe in Torah and Mitzvos.
qwerty: Read the OP in the following thread:
Television: A Cry of Anguish and Appeal to Our Jewish Brethren 📺
To Avira
I accept your comments vis a vis Rabbi Kahane. I think we should move away from that point and focus on Chabad. The only reason Kahanism came up is because Rabbi Menachem Shmei was trying to depict me as an idiot so I retaliated by noting that he omitted Kahane’s title. Instead of simply admitting that he made a mistake edited tried to defend himself by saying that it’s enough to say HYD. Then you joined in and the discussion became heated. But it’s time to move on from this.To ujm (Joseph)
I read your attachment and was quite surprised. Apparently, you believe that there will be a time when every Jew has to give Din V’Cheshbon. Now that’s interesting because the Chabad Rabbi of the Shul I attend said that according to the Rebbe, no one will be punished if they sin and there’s no such thing as Gehinnom. But let’s say you’re right. How will you face Hashem when He asks you if you believed that the Rebbe was “G-d clothed in human form?” And if you answer no, He’ll then ask you why you didn’t protest against your landsmen who do? The Gemara in Shabbos says that one who fails to protest against evil is given the same punishment as the sinner. Joseph, you focus on the fact that I watch an hour of TV a day, but you ignore the fact that I learn seven hours a day. You Lubavichers can try all you want to make me look bad, but it ain’t gonna work. Elul’s coming, wake up and renounce your false religion. We’ll gladly welcome you into the fold.
ARSo, please do re-read my last post. Same apllies to Avira. And try to think about it.
Do you understand such a concept that if someone did something wrong that there is a ta’anah on that fellow?ARSo, do you that Rashi in Yeshaya says that part of the reward that the tzaddikim get is that they watch the reshoim getting punished in Gehenom?
To mdd1
‘it’s an absolute lie and perversion of the Torah to say that a Rabbi has no right to tell his congregants what to do.”
My friend, you clearly know nothing about the concept of giving rebuke. Outside the Yeshiva world minyanim are a smorgasbord of Jews. On Shabbos, I went to my shul and it hosted an aufruf. There were about 60 guests all of whom were Mechallel Shabbos(they were on their phones throughout.) My Rov is one of the nicest people you’ll ever meet and an enormous Talmid Chacham. His goal is to be Mikarev such Jews. But according to you, it was his responsibility to stand up at the Bimah and tell them that they’ll all burn in Gehinnom. The point is that a Rov has to know his congregants. Yes, Rabbi Miller and others of his type could give straight Mussar but that’s because their followers hung on their every word. This however isn’t generally the case and so if a Rabbi goes fire and brimstone the next week he’ll be looking for a new shul. This is the reality but those, like you, who restrict themselves to the Yeshiva world have a very myopic view of the Jewish landscape.
“Prove your contention that watching TV is equivalent to eating a cheeseburger.“
לא תביא טואבה בתוך ביתך
והיו מחניך קדוש
Mdd, that’s for us to oppose when they’re here; their own cheshbonos are between them and Hashem… we’d want to see the retribution of the wicked for a mussar Haskel, from which we benefit…but to desire that other yiden burn forever once they’re gone…why does it hurt us if a yid gets into olam haba on some technicality lr zchus?
Mdd, where’s that rashi? And which reshoim are he referring to? Maybe it’s only apikorsim, who we daven to die….we say yitamu chataim velo chotim, we daven for stam reshoim to do teshuva
To Rabbi Menachem
Instead of getting Haskamah from Avira why don’t you go the source? I didn’t say that I’m ignorant about Chabad I said that I’m ignorant in general as compared to many of the participants including you. You guys are far more learned than I am. You study Sefarim that I never even heard of. This is what I admitted, but this does not, in any way, detract from my ability to lash out at Chabad. edited
To coffee addict
I’m not impressed with some juvenile attempt to play Rabbi. Show me a written Psak from a university accepted Posek
Qwerty613, what you say now is very different from what you wrote originally. You made a general statement that a Rov has no right to tell anybody what to do. In fact, he has an obligation to do so, but sometimes it does not apply because, for example, of the type of people he is dealing with.
To Avira
I hope you realize how desperate the Lubavichers are. Before I joined you and Neville were the leaders against Chabad.Now Rabb Menachem wants to win you over because he knows he can’t deal with me.sir, this isn’t color war
Qwert, you’re right that it is not the job of a kiruv rabbi to give fiery mussar shmuzen. That’s true. It doesn’t mean that a rav’s job of an observant community is to be a role model.
Rav millers shul were all orthodox from the beginning. He was a kiruv person, but kiruv krovim, bringing closer people who are already observant. Those people do need fiery drashos, and at the very least tochachah that they’ll be open to.
Being a kiruv rabbi in a shul or a college is different, and I’m surprised you can’t see the clear difference.
Coffee, add אל תשכון בעוהליך עולה, we are not permitted to own items which are used for sins, such as false weights, even if our purpose for them is benign. They are a hazard and must not be in the house. Since a TV (or definitely unfiltered Internet) is used for forbidden thinfs with the flick of a button, it cannot be allowed(filtered internet is different, and depends on individual circumstances and your Local Orthodox Rabbi)
Qwert, im not defending Lubavitch in the slightest; Menachem has good things to say about other things, and if i agree, i agree, and if i disagree, then that’s how I’ll respond; it’s not us vs. them; the reason why I even bother being on here is to share ideas with people, debunk online nonsense, and learn from people, some of whom i might sharply disagree with. That’s what this site js about; the moment something turns personal, i stop caring. That’s why i don’t care when some posters make fun of my name or engage in kther childish behavior; that’s not what im here for, and it only serves to prove my points for me.
I find menachems parody of the us vs them thing pretty funny; if you want to discuss ideas, I’m game, otherwise, i see no value.
Regarding tv, the psak linked above was from rabbonim across the board; litvishe, chasidishe, sefardi, and yekkies. Every single sector of Torah jewry was united in banning television, just as they are now united in banning unfiltered Internet.
To Avira
I completely agree with you. A speaker has to know his audience. Some congregants can hear straightforward Mussar and some can’t.
To mdd1
Please reread what I wrote. (It’s at the start of #13) I quoted my Rov as saying that a Rabbi has no right to tell others what to do, rather he simply acts as a role model. I would never suggest that presenting Mussar is inappropriate. You guys keep looking to catch me but I told you I am a true Totah Jew, just minus the black hat. The Rabbonim with whom I associate are giants and they show me as much respect as I give them, so you’re barking up the wrong tree if you think you’ll prove that I’m open Orthodox or conservadox. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I just believe in being receptive to different types of Jews. In that regard, I’m like Chabad. Yes, I believe that the Rebbe’s initiative of spreading Judaism throughout the world was tremendous. I’ll stop here so as not to be edited.
Avirah, do you understand the difference berween “no portion in Olam Haba, burning forever” and straight ticket to Gan Eiden without any judgment for reshoim?!? These are two different things. It is a mitsva to hate reshoim (and not only apikorsim). Look in Pesochim113B. If a mumar dies it is a mitsva to make a simcha (Y.D.345; Badei Ha’Shulchan Hil. Aveilus and Kitzur Sh.A.). Yes,we’d rather they do teshuvah. However Dovid Ha’Melech said:”ve’ata Elokim torideim le’be’er shachas, anshei damim u’mirma lo yechetzu yemeyhem…”. Why did not he say “and you will bring them straight to Gan Eiden”?
To Rabbi Menachem Shmei
I have good news for the thread. Bli Neder this will be the last time I respond to any of the remarks you direct at me. Let me explain this decision. I am a person of truth. To that point, I will be meeting with my Rov tomorrow. If he tells me that it’s Asur to have a TV then it goes and I will share this with the group. What I find offensive about you in particular is that you lie in order to demonize me to the others. The Torah says Midvar Sheker Tirchok but those words mean nothing to you. Let me give two examples. Last week I said that few in this thread can match my logical ability or my love of truth. In order to convince the participants that I’m egotistical you quoted me as saying, “Few can match my logic and love of truth.” intentionally taking out, “in this thread.” You did it again later in the week when I admitted to the posters that I’m ignorant with regard to learning having started relatively late in life. You twisted what I said to read, “You admit you’re ignorant about Lubavitch” and then you added that despite my knowing nothing about them I nevertheless attack them. How insecure and pathetic that you have to lie to try to win a meaningless argument with me? As for your comment that I’m wrong about ujm being Chabad. That’s possible. But Rav Moshe and Rabbi Miller were also wrong about Chabad so I guess I’m in good company. LOL and checkmate.
To Rabbi Menachem Shmei
Your apology is accepted. Several other people in the thread, all non-Lubavichers, have incorrectly attacked me, but when I pointed out their errors they refused to acknowledge them. And it’s simply a matter of Gaavah. To be fair, I do come off as arrogant, which can be a turn-off, but that’s just my writing style. In real life, I’m rather timid. Remember I’m a Lower East Sider and we have a reputation, which I try to uphold, for humility, which is why I admitted to not being nearly as Torah-knowledgeable as most of the other participants.
To Rabbi Menachem Shmei
Now that we’ve hopefully demonstrated that we can be civil to each other let’s see if we can converse. In your original posting, you said that you want to engage with observant Jews. What you’ve obviously learned is that going from the Mechallels to Torah Jews is an enormous jump because the former know zilch about Judaism. The Rebbe famously said that every Jew is a descendant of the Avos. That’s true and so each Jew has the potential for greatness. I’ll speak for myself. Those who know me now and 35 years ago are amazed by the transformation. So I believe in Kiruv and I embrace the Rebbe’s vision of spreading the light of Torah throughout the world. This said Judaism is at all times, rational, and therefore there are statements from Chabad which cannot be justified, starting with the assertion that the Rebbe “IS” Moshiach. I he was anointed King of the world it would not be a secret known only to a group that professes to have mastered the esoteric. As for the belief in Chabad circles that Judaism is not rational because it’s Kabbalah based, well this defies Rambam’s essential premise. If you guys are rejecting Rambam no problem, but then stop learning his works if you deny them.
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