August 28, 2023 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #2220582
Gur started to change already before the war. And they had already moved to Eretz Yisrael. There never was consistency in Gur. Even when their Rebbe could rightly be called the giant of the generation. I don’t know what you know about Gur. But they seem to me to be a lot further out than Chabad. Especially in Ikkari Emunah.
Satmar never had a heavy emphasis on The Baal Shem’s Torah. It was a tumultuous hundred years until it became what we see now. They may now settle into a new archetype. But there is no comparison to Chabad which goes back centuries.
My point with the Sanz dynasties is that it’s hard to read into them now. It is easy to discern which ones were authentic to the Divrei Chaim before the war, and which were more creative and visionary like. But now, I can’t really tell what they are about. Though their success is impressive.
Chabad was and still is primarily about the spread of Chassidus to bring Geulah to the the world through Complete Emunah. This can be found in the seforim of two hundred plus years ago and this is still on the lips of every devout Chabadtsker. This overrides any other consideration to them. If you have a problem with that premise, than you simply haven’t studied it. So much ink and agitation was put into this concept without ever reaching a full schism. You simply have no right to advocate for schism now, without thinking better of yourself than any Chassid or Misnagid who ever lived.
The fact that Chabad embraces innovation, modernity, and technology, is not critical to Chassidus. How one dresses or talks is not the reasons the Besht revealed himself. Nor was it to give twenty five gabbaim a job or to lead tish at a late hour to some thousand disconnected people.
Between the wars Lubavitch was into outreach. Maybe even earlier. That was a real thing in Lita. Telshe, Navardok, and others were all over it too.
Besides for his views, he helped a lot of Israeli politicians to get meetings and the like in America. And got nothing in return.
The Moshiach emphasis started right after the war. Before the last rebbe. It wasn’t uncommon then. Especially after the initial events in Eretz Yisrael. It waned elsewhere. But in Chabad it grew and grew. That is the Chabad way. They hold on tighter when others let go. You are seeing that in your debates with them.
The Rebbe helped out many yeshivos. Particularly, Torah Vdaas. He worked for mikvahs and mitzvah observance across the country. [That was the norm in post war America. Isolation was not an ideal then. Orthodoxy had to be saved.]
Could be he wanted to be accepted by all, but he didn’t say bad about any other leaders publicly or privately. If he had an issue, he spoke to the gadol directly and frankly.
And his followers never threatened to kill them. Or beat them up.August 28, 2023 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #2220592
n0m: “If I am just doing what Hashem wants and nothing else, than why is learning Torah important? ”
I still can’t understand you. Learning Torah isn’t a mitzvah?! והגית בו יומם ולילה, תלמוד תורה כנגד כולם, ודברת בם etc.
We are meant to learn Torah and keep Mitzvos SOLELY BECAUSE HASHEM SAID TO. To put it simply, if Hashem said to us, “If you learn Torah and keep Mitzvos you will STOP Mashiach coming and you will hide Elokus even deeper in the world, but I want you to learn Torah and keep Mitzvos anyway,” we would have to do it and forget about Mashiach and Elokus.
BH that’s not the case, as Torah and Mitzvos do indeed bring Mashiach bimheirah and reveal Elokus in the world, but that, so to speak, is Hashem’s business, not ours.August 28, 2023 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2220596
n0m re Avirah’s claim that we don’t daven that the whole world will know Mashiach: “I do. 15th bracha of the Amidah. V’karno Tarum”
I don’t see how that means that the whole world will know Mashiach. It means, as far as understand the simple meaning, that we daven that Dovid Hamelech’s pride/fame will be uplifted (when Mashiach comes). There is not meantion of the whole world knowing it.
When Mashiach comes the whole world will indeed acknowledge him, as this is one of the Rambam’s criteria, but I don’t see where we pray for that result.August 28, 2023 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2220597
Because there is more to Torah than just prattling about what type of hat and coat moshiach will wear. Or which language do the gods converse in.
Do you even realize what you are insinuating? According to your take, a true Jewish form of Christianity would not be worth making trouble over. Just take out the traces of paganism and we are good to go!
Let’s throw it back to you. Why were Yidden going to be killed instead of accepting Islam?!?!? It is monotheistic with no avodah zara.August 28, 2023 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2220598
Okay it’s a mitzvah. So is putting a fence on the porch. But why are we so consumed with it? Why is learning Torah so critical? It is what Hashem wants and nothing else. So let’s to some other mitzva instead.August 28, 2023 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2220601
n0m, I would say that I know both Gur and Satmar quite well and that almost everything you said about them is incorrect.
Furthermore, all groups trace their lineage to the Baal Shem Tov. It’s just in Lubavich they have a longer chain of ben achar ben (with both Menachem Mendel’s being sons-in-law) than others. But then again, Rizhin has an even longer chain because they are descendents of the Maggid of Mezritch.
And you wrote: “If he had an issue, he spoke to the gadol directly and frankly.”
When was it exactly that he spoke to Rav Shach, because he certainly had issues with him?August 28, 2023 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2220603
Arso- I’ll agree with your last post- our obsession with Moshiach is because Hashem cares- and we care for Hashems mission and Hashems pain (more than our own in golus)August 28, 2023 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2220604
Nomesorah- yup. Besides for the multiple tefillos for moshiach throughout davening- and- three times a dayAugust 28, 2023 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2220609
You claim that Chabad doesn’t try to deify the Rebbe. Then explain why a significant part of our discussion has been whether or not the Rebbe is god. Earth to n0mesorah, it’s the Lubavichers who say he’s god and no other group has or would ever suggest anything so insane. You also argue that if there’s a plan there must be a planner. True but plans are fluid. The Rebbe may have seen himself as Moshiach and assumed that his coronation would take place while he was alive. When he died those who took charge adapted the plan to fit the reality and voila we got Moshiach from the dead.August 28, 2023 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2220625
To be honest, some of us have more chitzonios reasons for wanting the geula- but The Rebbe taught us to care for Hashem at least as much- and showed the way- The Rebbe cried over the fact that The Shechina is in golusAugust 28, 2023 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #2220645
About 30 years ago a friend and colleague who had recently become observant asked me why we ahould spend so much time learning Gemara. He added that the Gemara had no practical relevance in his life. I couldn’t answer him at the time. As I’ve progressed inmy learning I realized the answer. Studying Gemara is a tool to train one in acquiring a sense of truth. N0m you’ve demonsrated throughout this thread that truth is not a valued trait for you and thetefore it makes sense that you would belittle Torah study. 1August 28, 2023 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #2220667
I wasn’t talking about Chabad deifying their rebbe. That was explained earlier. I was saying that it was mainstream to trust our teachers completely. Do you think our tradition was to doubt them and just follow reason?
We discussed at length the godhead issue. It’s not unique to Chabad. Not everybody correctly delves into deep topics. Whenever I turned the question around, I was ignored. Do you really believe that non-Chabad does not struggle with real belief issues?
You seem to be backing off the “carefully constructed plan” theory. Stop flip-flopping. Either Chabad is struggling with the issue themselves or they are trying to manipulate us. It can’t be both. So what is your take?
The Rebbe may have seen himself as Moshiach. Most likely he didn’t. Either way, how would we know for sure? And why have an inquisition?
I would appreciate answers.August 28, 2023 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #2220656AviraDeArahParticipant
Qwert, it’s a lot more than that. Gemara is the only way to reach the depth of chochmah elokis, of Hashem’s wisdom; it’s all in chumash ultimately, as the Gra writes in shir hashirim(and he used fo learn straight from a sefer torah in his final years without a gemara), but the only way we can access it is through sugyos hashas b’iyun.
Gemara connects a person to learning more than any other limud. It is in it that one can learn what a sevara is, how to think like Hashem on our level, who put His essence in the Torah, as chazal say that anochi Hashem stands for “ana nafshai kesavis yehavis,” i am writing and giving my soul to you,”
More than just training you to think truthfully.August 28, 2023 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #2220663
I think you misunderstood. If the whole purpose is just because Hashem wants us to do such and such. then why is there so much emphasis on learning Torah and Torah knowledge?August 28, 2023 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #2220664
Ruzhin is a good example of an authentic Chassidus. Though they did not rebuild to the magnitude of Chabad, Satmar, Gur, Belz, et cetera. Already in Europe, Lubavitch was more public and Ruzhin more hidden.
I have chased down multiple first hand accounts of The Rebbe and The Rosh Yeshiva. I don’t see a personal disagreement. Rather it is a dispute by proxy. It wasn’t as much as what the other should do. But which one should the other Gedolim follow.
I couldn’t verify to what extent The Rebbe attempted to talk to The Rosh Yeshiva. The Rebbe did make two references to Rav Shach in public.August 28, 2023 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #2220670
in order to have a proper debate we need some prerequisites
3] straight logic and commonsense
4] torah logic
have not detected sufficient amount of the first 3 yet . but am happy if you would convince me of the opposite . re the fourth I can’t comment yet .August 29, 2023 9:05 am at 9:05 am #2220723AviraDeArahParticipant
Nom, because Hashem wants more than anything for us to learn His wisdom; learning is not a hecsher mitzvah in order to know what to do flr mitzvos; if it were, then you’d be asking a good kashya.
but that’s not what Torah lishma is. Torah lishma, says the rosh, brought in nefesh hachaim beginning of shaar 4 is learning leshem hatorah, to know what it says there, because we want to know what Hashem gave us.
The beis hevi criticizes the idea harshly of Torah just being a means of knowing halacha, and says that this was the sin of bayis sheni, when they didn’t make a bracha on limud hatorah, because they held it was not choshuv for its own sake, and was merely a hecsher mitzvah.
We learn because this is what Hashem wants us to do, and the reason wh He wants us to do it is mainly the above,and we get closest to Him though learning lishma.
Despite the verbiage of your posts, you’re betraying a very superficial understanding of what it means to learn and to serve Hashem in general.August 29, 2023 9:08 am at 9:08 am #2220732mdd1Participant
Nomesorah, guess what? Some Rishonim hold that conversion to Islam is not “yehareig ve’lo’yavor” as it is not an avodah zorah. Those who hold it is “yehareig…” is because they view conversion to Islam as a kefirah in a part of nevuas Moshe Rabbeinu. Christianity is an avodah zorah for a Jew.
Before writing your posts here, maybe go learn the sugyos.August 29, 2023 9:10 am at 9:10 am #2220739
Ruzhin was hidden? I believe Ruzhiner was known for showing off his wealth.August 29, 2023 9:10 am at 9:10 am #2220740
qwerty > Studying Gemara is a tool to train one in acquiring a sense of truth.
I am all with you here. So is Maharal .. that is why a mis-use of Talmudic approach, such as quoting things out of context or quoting only things that support one’s POV is a meaningless exercise. Sometimes, we all start arguing using “first amendment” reshus for expressing an opinion as string as possible and leaving it to the opponent to disprove. this shows that surrounding culture sometimes affects minds more than leaning in beis midrashAugust 29, 2023 9:12 am at 9:12 am #2220742
> More than just training you to think truthfully.
But it would is a good first step to aspire to achieve before moving forward to kabbalistic concepts.August 29, 2023 9:14 am at 9:14 am #2220749
n0m re limud Torah: “Okay it’s a mitzvah. So is putting a fence on the porch. But why are we so consumed with it? Why is learning Torah so critical? It is what Hashem wants and nothing else. So let’s to some other mitzva instead.”
Because bittul Torah is an aveirah and one is meant to learn Torah during every free moment when one is not involved in any other important activity (such as writing in the coffee room?). And fine, if you have other mitzvos to do you are exempt from learning Torah at that time.August 29, 2023 9:15 am at 9:15 am #2220751
n0m re the L rebbe and R Shach: “I have chased down multiple first hand accounts of The Rebbe and The Rosh Yeshiva. I don’t see a personal disagreement.”
Which is why he called him part of “seridei choshech” and why if you mention Rav Shach to a Lubavicher they bristle at the fact that you’ve given him the title Rav.August 29, 2023 9:17 am at 9:17 am #2220756
First, my apologies for not mentioning the following earlier regarding avodah zarah. The truth is that I can’t believe that it slipped my mind.
Many of us – both chassidim and Litvishe – have pictures hanging in their houses of their rebbe or rosh yeshivah, and this is despite many gedolei Yisroel not being happy with the practice. The purpose of this (aside from showing others where you belong :)) is so that when you look at the picture it will hopefully inspire you to live up to the directives of the person pictured and to increase in Torah and mitzvos. If, however, you were to hang up a picture of your rebbe/RY and have it permanently covered, citing the reason that the picture itself can achieve something, that would be akin to avodah zarah. Does anyone disagree with that?
Yet in Lubavich the minhag is to have a picture of the Lubavicher rebbe hidden in the pillow holding the child at his bris. No one can see the picture at the time. If the minhag would be to show others – or even the rach hanimol, who probably can’t focus yet – the picture so that the image uplifts people, it could be understood. But please explain why hiding the picture where it can’t be seen is not an act of avodah zarah by attributing some form of power to a picture.
In one of the pamphlets put out by the Degel people in 5749, during the bitter election campaign between Degel and Agudah – they cited a story about R Yaakov Landa zt”l, the rov of Bnei Brak, who was a Lubavicher and, I believe, the house rov of the Rashab of Lubavich. According to the pamphlet, he once attended a bris, and when he saw them putting the picture in the pillow he asked what was going on. When he was told he became extremely agitated and said that it was avodah zarah. He could not be calmed down and had to be taken out of the room.
The story may not be true, after all, it was publicized by snags (!) but it certainly may be true.August 29, 2023 9:20 am at 9:20 am #2220764LostsparkParticipant
The knowledge argument (also known as Mary’s Room or Mary the super-scientist) is a philosophical thought experiment proposed by Frank Jackson in his article “Epiphenomenal Qualia” (1982) and extended in “What Mary Didn’t Know” (1986).
The experiment describes Mary, a scientist who exists in a black-and-white world where she has extensive access to physical descriptions of color, but no actual perceptual experience of color. Mary has learned everything there is to learn about color, but she has never actually experienced it for herself. The central question of the thought experiment is whether Mary will gain new knowledge when she goes outside the colorless world and experiences seeing in color.
This experiment is literally describing what it’s like showing some one chasssidus. It’s not meant to be known, it’s meant to be experienced. Any conversation going forth needs to keep this in mind.
QWERTY I’m saying this coming up on the yomim tovim, you can laugh at me all you want, but if you are really davening at a Lubavitch Shul there is something calling you to do so. I say logging off ywn, focusing on your nobel practice and trying to understand why you daven there is more pertinent than trolling.
– From a concerned trollAugust 29, 2023 9:21 am at 9:21 am #2220768
It seems futile to debate Habad hasidim on this site .
They do not seem to hear at all what you are getting at .
Or maybe they do hear, but intentionally divert the discussion to a different topic .
Bottom line is – criticism is not hate.
Criticism is legitimate .
Habad ‘s theology is controversial at best .
And if something they introduced is controversial , it is up to them to explain it in a satisfactory manner , which they have not done yet .
Nomesorah is alleging in response that gur hasidim changed ikarei emuna more than habad .
Ikarei emuna ? In what way ?
.August 29, 2023 9:22 am at 9:22 am #2220769
REPEAT – NO ANSWER GIVEN or even attempted yet ….
We can’t agree that we need Moshiach since I hold that many tzaddikim have had nevuah after חגי זכריה מלאכי!?
Please elaborate . Who else had Nevua after Chagai , Z and M ?
And source corroborating their nevua as valid ?
Was it widely accepted in Klal Yisrael ?
Thanks in advance for the forthcoming details .August 29, 2023 9:22 am at 9:22 am #2220778
In my opinion at least , if you spearhead a movement , clearly in theology at odds with the rest of klal yisrael [no other part of klal yisrael champions mashiach from the dead like them , no one near-deifies their leader like them ] ,and at odds with what THEY THEMSELVES were proclaiming for years , its only fair to expect , anticipate and therefore accept , that you are opening yourself up to genuine and open examination of your shitot , their roots ,their essence and their consequences . That should all be part of the game .
And that as grownups, they should be able to hear any legitimate taanot and FORMULATE TO THE POINT RESPONSES head on ,without hiding behind changes of topic or other similar tactics .August 29, 2023 12:54 pm at 12:54 pm #2220873
To Always Ask
When I said that one should learn Gemara to train himself to be truthful, it was just my perception. As I’ve said my Torah knowledge is limited so I didn’r know that I was Michavin to the Maharal. Thanks for that info. And it’s a point that can’t be overstated. There are people in this thread who use various methods of deception to “win” the day. It makes no sense to me Of course Avira is also correct that learimg Gemara connects us to Hashem’s wisdom.August 29, 2023 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #2220880
You obviously expended a lot of time and effort on your latest post. The bottom line is that you want me to leave the thread. As the Yomim Noraim approach you should ask yourself why you’re so afraid of me. I think we both know the answer.August 29, 2023 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #2220903Menachem ShmeiParticipant
Please elaborate . Who else had Nevua after Chagai , Z and M ?
#2214125August 29, 2023 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #2220905
To the Group
I don’t understand why my davening in a Chabad shul is causing such an uproar. It’s no different than davening in any other shul. You know in one way it is different. Everyone is nice to each other. And that’s why I like it. Is that so hard to understand? I’ve been friends with the Rabbis for about 20 years.
I’m not your classic hater. I’m simply expressing my opinion that certain Chabad beliefs are heretical.August 29, 2023 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #2221030
I thought my question was clear.
The context is based on a post that it we don’t take into account the greater purpose in our actions. Our whole purpose is only to follow The Will Of Hashem. I am not disagreeing with that statement. But I doubt it’s relevance to this subject. My question is that why is there so much emphasis on learning and knowing Torah? If reasons don’t come into play at all then why is it important to keep studying. Better eat the matzo because that is what Hashem wants. A serious student has to contend with distractions and wrong interpretations or mistaken texts. Why risk not doing Hashem’s Will? Just eat good food a whole Shabbos. Easier than learning. Spend the whole week preparing for Shabbos. Ones livelihood and caring for people is also a Mitzva. One can find much easier routes to constantly doing His Will than Torah Study. Yet, we have been taught that it all comes down to Torah Study. Why is that so?August 29, 2023 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #2221031
What source is there to corroborate the prophecies of Zechariah?
Was Yermiyahu widely accepted or not?
Do you doubt that can be nevuah at all times?
I quoted the Chinuch.
You also didn’t respond to my proof that The Rebbe does not have a din of a Navi.August 29, 2023 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #2221033
The Chassidus of Ruzhin was more hidden.August 29, 2023 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #2221034
This is the sugya?!?!?
The first sugya is the Rambam’s many essays and the Moreh. You ignored this multiple times.
Second, is the other opinions on The Ikkarim. You have brought nothing.
There has been a centuries long debate about the role of kabbalah in public life. You tried to use this. But I called you out and you didn’t respond.
A fourth possible sugya is how we arrive at mainstream thought. This would include the Chassam Sofer that was mentioned already twice. You didn’t add anything.
So I assumed that you meant that we just go by at what point did Yidden rather die than accept a different religion. I responded that it wasn’t because of a theological argument. Being baptized and the like is it’s own problem regardless of the theology. If a religion is a”z or not would have no bearing on the issue at hand. Avodah zara requires worship. It is not a matter of belief.
I would much rather be debating the real sugyos listed in this post than Chabad. But it doesn’t seem like you are interested.August 29, 2023 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #2221035
The mention of the whole world acknowledging moshiach is in Sefer Yeshaya.
What do you daven for? That he would be known in Africa? Fox news? Facebook? Win an election? A TV contest? Of course it means throughout humanity.August 29, 2023 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #2221036
It is not clear to what extent these “certain Chabad beliefs are heretical”. There is no obligation on Jews to master philosophy. If people have irrational beliefs, than so be it. There isn’t any more harm in their carrying these beliefs into Judaism. Wise people will always spot the fool. If you are talking about across the board Chabad beliefs, then you will win this argument only when you are able to talk for everyone. Those who understand how Chabad thinks within their system, are aware of how it is solely based in known and authenticated Chassidus. If you really learn Chassidus well, much of what bothers you will fall away.August 29, 2023 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #2221037
The first component to engage in a debate, is different views on the same topic.
I don’t think we have agreed on a topic. I really can’t follow your posts. Maybe I’ll go back and read them all, but don’t hold your breath.August 29, 2023 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #2221042
Please elaborate . Who else had Nevua after Chagai , Z and M ?
Cant find it . Suppose it exists .
If Menachem would be so kind to paste his response in full ….August 29, 2023 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #2221066
Hashem is going to have a hard time judging you because you’re way to smart for Him. Whichever category He puts you in you’ll talk your way out of it. Ueah believe that and the one about the Rebbe being god.August 29, 2023 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #2221044
To the group.
Nomesorah is taking us all on a wild goose chase . We are touring Europe , with him as a guide .
Not sure what the connection to habad is , however ……
Hope this is not an attempt to throw some sand in our collective eyes ……
So do I assume you accidentally posted under the wrong screenname again?
It’s one per customerAugust 29, 2023 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #2221052sechel83Participant
some words about elul from the rebbe.
ומראה פנים שוחקות לכולם, דהחילוק בין מקבל (בסבר פנים יפות) למראה (פנים שוחקות) הוא, דלשון מקבל נופל על דבר שישנו מקודם (לפני שקיבל) והוא מקבל את הדבר, ומראה פנים שוחקות הוא שהפנים שוחקות שלו (שישנם גם לפני שמראה) הוא מראה ומגלה אותם לזולתו. וזהו דלאחרי שאומר שהמלך מקבל את כולם בסבר פנים יפות מוסיף שהוא מראה פנים שוחקות לכולם, דזה שהוא מקבלם בסבר פנים יפות הוא שהרצון דהעם (להקביל את פני המלך) מתקבל אצל המלך בסבר פנים יפות, וההוספה דמראה פנים שוחקות הוא דכשמתעורר ברצון לעשות תשובה נמשך לו הגילוי דפנים שוחקות דלמעלה, התענוג (שחוק) דהמלך עצמו. דתענוג זה הוא למעלה מהתענוג (דבחינת פנים יפות) שמהתעוררות התשובה, וכמבואר במק”א20, דשורש השחוק (פנים שוחקות) הוא בעצמות התענוג (תענוג עצמי הבלתי מורכב) שלמעלה מתענוג הבא ע”י דבר (תענוג המורכב).
וישלומר, דענין פנים שוחקות בהנמשל הוא התענוג דלמעלה שבישראל עצמם21 (שלמעלה מהתענוג שמקיום התורה ומצוות דישראל, ולמעלה גם מהתענוג שמעבודת התשובה) דתענוג זה הוא בהעצמות. וע”י שמראה להם פנים שוחקות, שתענוג זה מתגלה להאדם (המתעורר ברצון לתשובה), זה מעורר אצלו (כמים הפנים לפנים22) התענוג באלקות ועד שהתענוג באלקות הוא עצם התענוג שלו, וזה נותן לו הכח עוד יותר להתגבר על המניעות ועיכובים ולשוב בתשובה שלימה.August 30, 2023 12:31 am at 12:31 am #2221046
This discussion seems to be going around and around , without ‘to the point’ answers .
Just A quick repeat of a previous post – and a short question – which one of the details below are incorrect ?
1] Please post the incorrect details [if there are]
2] If on the other hand they are correct – please can we have an answer why this is not a Reiuta in habad s Chazaka ?
Lets look at the history , the reality , the facts – The official Chabad line as publicized by their rebbe , their chozer , their rabbanim , their Mashpiim FROM THE START ,not any Harry who claims to be Chabad — Ok ?
Lets be honest without any obfuscation and changing the topic .
In the beginning ,  the line was -Anyone who claims that Chabad claims to be messianic is a plain liar , against chasidus , mechalel shem lubavitsh etc , Only the Mitnagdim who tried to besmirch Lubavitsh said so , and it was an indication of their blind hate . Other Chasidim stuck up for Lubavitsh as the innocent victim of Hotsaat Shem Ra. All the evidence is there , in the archives of HaModia and Kfar Chabad and other newspapers of that era.
Then  it changed , Chabad Chassidim made a u turn , openly proclaimed their rebbe as Mashiach , but the rebbe openly criticized it . He definitely is not Mashiach . Here too, the evidence is plainly there in all the newspapers of the era . Then  he too followed in their u turn , openly acknowledged his own messiahship , clearly evidenced by his periodic near weekly dvar malchus dating from approx 6 months preceding his stroke in the spring of 1992 , until the stroke , also available in the archives, as well the weekly issues of the kfar chabad newspaper the official chabad public organ. . In the meantime [3A] he also proclaimed himself a navi , like chagai zecharia and malachi . Nevua ,after a hiatus of thousands of years ,has finally come back to klal yisrael. b’h. Also clearly documented in dvar malcus [parshas shoftim] . Quite a big u turn , when you compare no 1 – with no 3A. It s not finished yet , because then [3B] as Nevua [!] he proclaimed that Mashiach is here already now kipshuto and will take us bekarov out of galus , and that we are in the first generation of the geula. So as a result there was a wall to wall coallition of all official chabad mashpiiim and Rabbanim saying that  it is one of ikarei emuna to believe and follow a navi plus their rebbi is a navi plus he prophesied on himself that he is mashiach plus it is one of the ikarei emuna that mashiach has to finish the geula before he dies . One plus one plus one plus one – equals four . Result – it is one of the ikarei emuna that their rebbi CANNOT die before the finish of the geula . Not me , not I am saying this , This was OFFICIAL Chabad theology. Evidence is there . Its all in the archives . Read kfar Chabad weekly , sichos of r yoel kahn . Sichos and articles of mendel wechter , of r ashkenazi rav of kfar chabad [the town], signed kol koreis of virtually all rabbanim of chabad kehillot.
Then  the unthinkable happened . He died. The minority, including yoel kahn , stayed with their previous belief that mashiach must finish the geula before he dies [the normative Jewish belief as clearly delineated by the RMBN , Rabenu Moshe ben NACHMAN in sefer havikuach] so they jettisoned the nevua parts . They admitted in being mistaken [!] in that . Here it is not sure where exactly [in their own eyes] they went wrong .. but never mind. The majority however  could not bring themselves to throw the navi part out of the window , so they jettisoned the dying part . No, they proclaimed loudly, mashiach can die before he finishes the job . What previously was considered part of the ikarei emuna, is now hevel havalim , or depending on a machloket , where everyone can choose what they like , whats convenient for them .
My question is – who needs to argue against Habad Theology any more , when Habad themselves are doing such a splendid work ?
Am really looking forward to a point on point , honest discussion on each of the above ‘steps’ .
Can we safely assume that in case of no [adequate] response – the Klal of Shtika KeHoda’a would apply ?August 30, 2023 12:32 am at 12:32 am #2221108
So do I assume you accidentally posted under the wrong screenname again?
It’s one per customer
Its all under the one name , always used . Never ever used more than one .
Its Yankel Berel , and that’s it .August 30, 2023 12:32 am at 12:32 am #2221109
To the group
To those who are Hebraically challenged, I’ll give you a short synopsis, “the king is in the field.”August 30, 2023 12:32 am at 12:32 am #2221110
You are an EXPERT in changing topics and leaving real unanswered questions with the illusion of an answer.
Should compile all question raised in this thread , match them one by one with answers .
Read them carefully.
The result might resemble … a comedy .August 30, 2023 12:33 am at 12:33 am #2221112
Nomesorah has to face up to certain facts.
If he cannot face up to them he will be living in denial and shlep all of us with him .
A] The rebbi of Habad considered himself to be the messiah.
B] habad hasidim [near]deify their rebbi , more so than any other group or sect in klal Yisrael ever.
C] their rebbi used references to his father in law to indirectly get messages across how others should be regarding himself.
D] Habad , under clear direction of their Rebbe , their rabbanim and their mashpi’im , flip flopped regarding ikarei emuna.
These are 4 statements which , please answer – unambiguously
– AGREE , DO NOT AGREE / WHY
Slowly and methodically . Point by point . Dispassionately. With Moach Shalit Al HaLev.
ThanksAugust 30, 2023 3:44 am at 3:44 am #2221135
n0m: “we have been taught that it all comes down to Torah Study. Why is that so?”
It doesn’t all come down to Torah study. Someone who studies Torah and doesn’t keep Mitzvos is a posheia. Nonetheless, תלמוד תורה כנגד כולם. Furthermore, without learning Torah how will one know how to live his life?August 30, 2023 3:45 am at 3:45 am #2221136
n0m: “The mention of the whole world acknowledging moshiach is in Sefer Yeshaya.”
Can you please provide chapter and verse? I’m not arguing, just wanting to know.
- The topic ‘Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher’ is closed to new replies.