July 12, 2023 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #2207904
mentsch1 and CTLAWYER,
Whether or not your families self-identify as misnagdim is largely irrelevant to this conversation, as is the literal meaning of the word. The issue is when Jews are called misnagdim or snags as a pejorative. Always_Ask_Questions brought up “Ivri” (Hebrew) as an example of self-identifying in opposition, and that’s fine. But when a gentile calls a Jew a “Heeb”, it’s a pejorative. The label “Perushim” was also meant as a separator in the days of Bayis Sheini, but when a Christian calls someone a “Pharisee” it’s not meant as a nice thing. Misnagdim are the villains in Chabad stories, so regardless of what anyone calls themselves, it’s not nice for someone to call their fellow Jews villains. And snag is always a pejorative. It’s as simple as that.July 12, 2023 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #2207900
Menachem, you might not be in this category, but you have to admit that there is an issue with people doing mitzvos because they make their rebbe happy, doing kiruv because the Lubavitcher rebbe said to do it, feeling safe because they are carrying a picture of him in their pocket, asking him for help directly, thinking that he can read your mind all the time, and more.
We’ve all heard stories along the lines of the following: i know a Lubavitcher who said that he had serious doubts about yiddishkeit and went off at one point, but came back because he said that yiddishkeit must be true if the Lubavitcher rebbe believed in it.
This is far more than a rebbe being your spiritual leader and someone you follow because they know how to reach Hashem. It goes beyond a relationship between a rebbe and a chosid to something deeply problematic.
I’m the first to acknowledge issues in the litvishe community; chabad needs to do so as well, and those who don’t, i assume either are ok with the problems or are burying their head in the sandJuly 12, 2023 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #2207907
First I want to express that I appreciate your willingness to politely and respectfully engage in this debate.
“>>>Unfortunately, for many simple, and some not so simple Chasidim fear of G-d is hardly mentioned: just fear of their Rebbe
This is no longer an ideological discussion but a false accusation. “
I agree that this was an untrue generalization; however, I’m curious if you have a response to the other things Jude wrote that were not generalizations. I was in a mainstream Chabad shul a few weeks ago and saw a fellow with a photo of the rebbe on his shtender while he was davening. I know you’d acknowledge that every group has their “nuts”, but when the nuts start playing with fire in your building, at what point do you do something about it?July 12, 2023 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #2207909
“When the Alter Rebbe was freed from the Peter Paul Fortress before evening on Yud-Tes Kislev, 5559 (1798)”
I once heard from a Chabad source that he was freed before yud tes Kislev, but the Chabad holiday is celebrated on yud tes Kislev itself because he was accidentally delivered to the house of a misnagid who objected to and questioned him about chassidic beliefs (while serving him tea). And he was “rescued” from the clutches of this misnagid after dark. So the time spent with a misnagid was so odious that it was equivalent to being imprisoned falsely by gentiles?July 12, 2023 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #2207965
“you have to admit that there is an issue with people doing mitzvos because they make their rebbe happy, doing kiruv because the Lubavitcher rebbe said to do it”
I think I’m officially on “your side” in these threads, but I wouldn’t even agree to that. If their kavana when doing a mitzvah (eg. tefillin) was that it was for the Rebbe rather than Hashem, then obviously that would be wrong, but are you really alleging that to be the case?
It seems like he just decided that kiruv would be modern Chabad’s primary avoda, or niche to fill much like bikur cholim is with Satmar. I don’t see why having a certain mitzvah be extremely encouraged in one’s community would make it any less lishma when done by members of that community.July 12, 2023 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #2207964
“but you have to admit that there is an issue with people doing mitzvos because they make their rebbe happy”
This is not something that is unique to Chabad. It’s childish, but even adults retain some of childhood. A 4-year old washes his hands and makes a nice, loud al netilas yadayim mostly because it puts a smile on mommy and totty’s faces, with some understanding that there is Hashem who commanded it. A man who davens a bit slower in shul than he does when alone, or puts on a tie when going to shul but not at home, etc. is largely the same as that 4-year old.
“doing kiruv because the Lubavitcher rebbe said to do it”
I don’t see this as problematic either. Years ago, my rav at the time told me a dishwasher cannot be kashered. So I’ve never done so, despite knowing other opinions say it’s possible (replace racks, 3 cycles, etc.), because I asked a shaila on what to do and the rav said what to do.
“feeling safe because they are carrying a picture of him in their pocket, asking him for help directly, thinking that he can read your mind all the time, and more.”
These are certainly problematic.July 12, 2023 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #2207986
Neville, re, doing mitzvos for the sake of their rebbe – I’ve seen in some chabad educational material (to be fair, i do not remember if it was printed by kehas, or if it was an independent institution, but it was definitely taught in a chabad summer camp). I’ve heard it from Lubavitchers individually, too.
Avram, i should have been clearer about the kiruv point – i saw a tzivos Hashem pamphlet where the children were asked to describe the importance of kiruv; many of them responded by saying “the rebbe said to do it.”
That’s different than doing what your rebbe says because you’re supposed to follow him even if he’s a minority opinion. I have some rather unique practices that i do from my rov too, but i do them because i follow his psakim across the board.
As for comparing mitzvos done by adult chabad chasidim to what children do…the difference is that the child sees the reaction from the parents. Here, they are actively imagining the pleasure their revbe gets from their actions instead of imagining the pleasure Hashem gets from it.
Of course, the Occam’s razor solution here is the underlying deification, where pleasing the rebbe, speaking to him, him knowing your thoughts, etc…is because of him being one and the same with kavayacholJuly 12, 2023 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #2207992amiricanyeshivishParticipant
There are chasidim from other chasiduses that have told me that the young Bachurim are scared to do an aveira because Hashem might tell their Rebbe on them….July 12, 2023 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #2207993
>>> First I want to express that I appreciate your willingness…
Thanks, I try.
>>>I was in a mainstream Chabad shul a few weeks ago and saw a fellow with a photo of the rebbe on his shtender while he was davening.
I think that this doesn’t enter the minds of most Lubavitchers, all Lubavitchers that I know consider this unacceptable, and this is the chinuch that is given.
I’m always shocked when people claim that Chabad schools have the children face a picture of the Rebbe when they daven, and the like.
I went to an ultra-Chabad cheder, all Yiddish, no secular studies at all for all ages (no math, English, etc.), very “Rebbe-centered”.
In third grade, a student had a picture of the Rebbe near him during davening (I don’t think it was intentional), and the rebbi gave a lecture how this is not allowed, as well as how the Rebbe didn’t allow for his picture in the Kfar Chabad beis medrash. (Suprisingly, some yeshivos do have his picture on the wall of the beis medrash, but I have never seen on on mizrach side. Always in the back).
This is the regular education that I and everyone I know has received throughout the years.July 12, 2023 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #2207996
>>>I once heard from a Chabad source that he was freed before yud tes Kislev
Although it is know simply as “Yud Tes Kislev” – Chabad actually celebrates Yud Tes & Chof Kislev.
The reason: The Alter Rebbe was released from prison late afternoon on Yud Tes Kislev, but he was accidentally brought to the house of a fierce misnaged (Notkin – whom I mentioned earlier) who spent three hours screaming at the Alter Rebbe with all of his taanos against chassidus (though he indeed offered him tea).
It was only that night (Chof Kislev) that the chassidim found out where the Alter Rebbe was and brought him back, so Chof Kislev is also celebrated.July 12, 2023 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #2208008
I will repeat
If we can be elitist, why can’t they?
I don’t care if they use it pejoratively. I don’t care if I am the boogie man of their stories. You will hear the same pejoratives in all my misnagdish familiy homes, just in the reverse.
If all misnagdim were careful to always treat the differing philosophies of their fellow Jews with the utmost respect, then I can hear calling out a segment who doesn’t act the same.
But the whole point of self identifying as a misnagid is showing that you don’t respect the other philosophy.
Technically we started it.July 12, 2023 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #2208011
“Neville, re, doing mitzvos for the sake of their rebbe”
I think I largely agree with the underlying theme that you’re criticizing, so I don’t even know why I’m about to counter this, but I’m bored…
I think it’s possible that the pamphlets you mention are singling out certain mitzvos which were singled out by the Rebbe. The proof given of the importance of Lubavitchers doing those particular mitzvos is something along the lines of “the Rebbe said so.” Albeit, maybe it would be more satisfying to an outsider if they explained the reasoning behind stressing those mitzvos in more detail, but to the target audience, it’s a good enough proof. The point is, I still think it goes without saying that mitzvos are for Hashem; even in really culty Chabad circles I’ve never doubted that. They just stress some over others because the Rebbe told them to, which in and of itself is not that unusual for Chassidim.
If I’m wrong, and the pamphlets were not talking about SPECIFIC mitzvos mentioned by the Rebbe, but rather saying the the idea of mitzvos in GENERAL is done to please the Rebbe, that’s a different story.July 12, 2023 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #2208012
This story w/ being freed from Russian prison and an encounter w/ a misnaged needs to be seen also in the context of Alter Rebbe later collaboration w/ Russians during the war w/ Napoleon including providing intelligence (until his petirah while fleeing from the French army advances). This seems to be a daas yachid, as other misnagdim and chasidim welcomed liberation from the Russian empire. His arguments seemed to be (1) better to be oppressed in a conservative society than get exposed to dangerous modernity, and (2) Napoleons come and go, but the Russian state will still be there. On the 2nd argument, Chabad was geolocated deeper into the Russian empire than many other groups.July 12, 2023 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #2208013
Curious about chasidim who neeed to be told that Rebbe did not approve putting his pictures. Presumably, those who continue doing this were already told, but prefer their own shitos to their Rebbe’s – so their behavior is not a tribute to the Rebbe, but simply ignorant behavior. In another group, a guy might be using facebook at home, but in chabad he is doing something visible.July 12, 2023 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #2208014
On comparing “kiruv” with “bikur cholim” as just a group’s mitzva. With all kavod to bikur cholim, we have for several generations millions of Yidden who are being lost and Chabad focus on them is a great thing. The fact that most other groups ignored that for decades and then relegated to ‘kiruv” organizations is a bigger issue that can be partially excused by a couple of centuries of being on defensive from apikoiresim.
Also, “kiruv” is not a Chabad term, and we need a better one to avoid the presumptuous attitude that one person is closer to Hashem than another.July 13, 2023 8:47 am at 8:47 am #2208071
As I mentioned in a comment, I had never seen or heard the term SNAG until reading it in this thread. It is not a derogatory term uttered aloud in the OOT communities I’ve lived in. In about 7 decades of life Misnagid has only been used as self description and see when reading Jewish history.
Never has local Chabad used the term aloud I. My presence.
As I have repeatedly commented: in small OOT communities all types of Jews support all Jewish institutions. Since the Chabad Day School is majority funded by both Litvish and non-orthodox Jews, the local Chabad would not public use those terms about their donors.
The true infighting that I see, hear abc read about is I. The major Jewish communities and EY
I grew up in New Haven. I think we belonged to (and paid dues each year) to 4 shuls. I left for another CT Town 35 years ago , but still belong and pay dues to 2 of those that are still operational.
My big city Jewish friends did/do not understand the obligation small town Jews take upon themselves to make sure all Jewish communal organizations can survive and fund them.
Federation makes Chabad, Litvish and Solomon Schecter schools all constituent agencies and allocated funding. Thus wealthy Reform Hews knowingly fund Orthodox education through Federation donations as well as responding to individual fundraising.
As I said we self identified as Misnagid, but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a bronze plaque with our family name on a classroom at THS Chabad Day School. I also spent two years as President of a shul which because of mergers davened Nusach Ari using Tehillay HaShem sidfurimJuly 13, 2023 10:41 am at 10:41 am #2208087
“If we can be elitist, why can’t they?
I don’t care if they use it pejoratively. I don’t care if I am the boogie man of their stories. You will hear the same pejoratives in all my misnagdish familiy homes, just in the reverse.”
“We” shouldn’t be allowed to either. If your only objection towards Chabad is an irrational hatred of Chassidim then I have more common ground with the Lubavitchers than I do with you. And, for the benefit of any ignorant onlookers: it is not normal for people to sit around bashing on Chassidim. Mentsh1’s situation is not common.
“This seems to be a daas yachid, as other misnagdim and chasidim welcomed liberation from the Russian empire.”
This is untrue, but I’ve heard many in Chabad circles who also have this misconception. The Chasam Sofer was also anti-Napoleon (as it pertained to Austria-Hungary) as were many what we would now call “chareidi” rabbis. The neologues and reform Jews were the ones who more gleefully supported Napoleon. There might be exceptions, but he definitely was not a “daas yochid.”
“On comparing “kiruv” with “bikur cholim” as just a group’s mitzva.”
You didn’t understand the analogy, and you are downplaying the mitzva of bikur cholim even given your attempt to word it as though you aren’t. In any case, the point was not that they are of equal value. The point was that different groups have different shticks.
“Also, “kiruv” is not a Chabad term”
Kiruv is the term for outreach. I couldn’t care less if Chabad doesn’t like it.July 13, 2023 11:36 am at 11:36 am #2208098Yserbius123Participant
@menachem-shmei I don’t mean to be rude or insulting, but I have a hard time believing you about how strict people were about not davening towards a picture of your Rebbe ZT”L. The reason being is that this is the type of thing I hear a lot from Chabadniks discussing their practices with frum people. The frum person will mention some Chabad thing, and the Chabadnik will gasp in horror and say “Oh no! Only a few real crazies do that! All of Chabad hates that sort of thing!”
Which is fine. Problems start when I see or hear something that directly contradicts this notion, which happens very very often. Like one day on CR a Lubavitcher will adamantly deny that there is such a thing as an Elokist. However, within the same thread a different Lubavitcher will go on a whole thing explaining how his Rebbe is “Atzmus Nasi HaDor” and we can direct our teffilos to him and he will answer them. Every time the Moshiach discussion happens, there’s someone who will claim that it’s really just one rich guy who spends all his time and money on the signs and everyone hates him. Meanwhile, you can find YouTube videos from last week of hundreds of people declaring Rav Schneerson ZT”L to be the Moshiach.
As for your claim that no “real” Chabadnik will put a picture of a Lubavitcher Rebbe by teffilos, there are literally Chabad houses and synagogues with a giant picture up on the mizrach vant. And quite a few people who do these sorts of things are in massive positions of authority.July 13, 2023 11:38 am at 11:38 am #2208099Yserbius123Participant
And can I just say? I find a lot of minhagim that are not my own to be weird. I think a lot of people do. Not anti-Torah, like still very much within the realm of Yiddishkeit, it’s just I don’t get it and quietly laugh at it (as I’m sure many people do about my minhagim). Mitzvah Tantzes are weird. Ladies loodoodoodooloodling at simchas is weird.
But I find the Chabad minhag of “We are now mechabed Menachem Mendel Schopitzkivover to press the button on the tape player so we can hear a five second recording from forty years ago” under the Chuppah to be a little weirder than most.July 13, 2023 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm #2208105
Menachem: Respectfully, I don’t understand why a picture of the Rebbe is a thing. I’m referring to in general, like in weddings halls and other general events, where it is very common to find this huge picture of the Rebbe. I know some Rebbes (i.e. Satmar, etc.) were completely opposed to anyone taking their picture, let alone hanging their picture up. But I’m not talking about that. I know many frum people keep pictures of Rabbonim in their homes. But it is rather unusual anywhere outside of Lubavitch to hang a picture in all general facilities, events and areas. Let alone such a huge photograph.
Pictures didn’t much exist for the thousands of years before George Eastman started Kodak. Since when did it become a mitzvah or even a thing that seemingly is carried out with such religious fervor?July 13, 2023 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #2208130
Again with the being deliberately obtuse. It’s almost as if you invent statements that people make just so you can try to score points. I wonder if there is a word (or 2) for that.
No one said anything about an irrational hatred of anyone. The context has always been in the realm of philosophy. Nor did anyone say anything about sitting around and bashing people.
I make the same point, we all prefer our own minhagim and to an extent look down on the minhagim and philosophies of others as being strange. why is it worse when a lubavitcher calls me a snag than when I roll my eyes and make a comment when i see a chassid driving after shkia on erev shabbos?
And another thing, and I do not know how this escaped you. I (and CT) are the non chassidim defending the other side here. At no point did I get involved in this machlokes. Yet you are being pretty persistent about calling out others on there beliefs.
So explain to me how I am the one spewing hatred and you are the mentsch?July 13, 2023 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #2208170
Sorry for all the typos in my last commentJuly 13, 2023 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #2208172
“the difference is that the child sees the reaction from the parents. Here, they are actively imagining the pleasure their revbe gets from their actions instead of imagining the pleasure Hashem gets from it”
MaskimJuly 13, 2023 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #2208174
“all Lubavitchers that I know consider this unacceptable, and this is the chinuch that is given.”
Good to know.July 13, 2023 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #2208176
“Although it is know simply as “Yud Tes Kislev” – Chabad actually celebrates Yud Tes & Chof Kislev.”
Ok, I was off by a day in my recollection. My question still remains, however: the time spent with a misnagid was so odious that it was equivalent to being imprisoned falsely by gentiles? The story never really sat right with me, because the “screaming” and the serving tea seem so incongruous. And the idea that being questioned by another Jew is equivalent to being victimized. R’ Moshe Feinstein ZT”L encountered strong opposition to some of his rulings (e.g., chalav stam) from chassidishe rebbes, and some of their disciples even behaved rudely towards him, but the Jews who opposed him were not enshrined in American Litvak lore as being villains.July 13, 2023 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #2208189
“I will repeat
If we can be elitist, why can’t they?”
Stop right there, and take me out of that we. You can speak for yourself only.
“I don’t care if they use it pejoratively. I don’t care if I am the boogie man of their stories.”
Well, I do care, and so do many other Jews I know.
“You will hear the same pejoratives in all my misnagdish familiy homes, just in the reverse.”
Not in my home, and not in homes I’ve visited. I think the worst I’ve heard was a story involving a Lubavitcher (non-insulting), where in describing him the guy said, “and he was a real Lubavitcher, with the shmushed hat and everything”.
“If all misnagdim were careful to always treat the differing philosophies of their fellow Jews with the utmost respect, then I can hear calling out a segment who doesn’t act the same.”
Or perhaps you can give tochacha to those who slur or villainize, whether they are Litvish, Chabad, or whoever. Because two wrongs don’t make a right.
“But the whole point of self identifying as a misnagid is showing that you don’t respect the other philosophy.”
I don’t self identify as a misnagid.July 13, 2023 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #2208194
“I make the same point, we all prefer our own minhagim and to an extent look down on the minhagim and philosophies of others as being strange.”
Preferring one’s own minhagim is not the same thing as looking down on other minhagim.
“why is it worse when a lubavitcher calls me a snag than when I roll my eyes and make a comment when i see a chassid driving after shkia on erev shabbos?”
I wouldn’t recommend rolling your eyes and making “comments”, because that’s not nice. But calling someone a name is most definitely worse than objecting to a practice. Because the former dehumanizes, while the latter is a halachic or hashkafic dispute. If a chassid tells me that since I bring non-CY dairy into my house he cannot eat from my dairy dishes, and he thinks it’s wrong, and chalav stam is chalav akum, that’s a halachic dispute and not inherently an insult. I can choose to be insulted if I were immature. I could discuss and debate with him, which might be interesting. Or I could accommodate him and still welcome him to my home. If he calls me a snag or sheigetz, however, that’s a dehumanizing slur and most definitely an insult.July 13, 2023 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #2208195
“So explain to me how I am the one spewing hatred and you are the mentsch?”
Well, you’ve called him obtuse twice now and implied that he’s debating with disingenuous intentions, whereas he’s just disagreed with you.July 13, 2023 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #2208197
“As I mentioned in a comment, I had never seen or heard the term SNAG until reading it in this thread. It is not a derogatory term uttered aloud in the OOT communities I’ve lived in.”
B”H. It does seem to be more prevalent in “online” spaces.
“In about 7 decades of life Misnagid has only been used as self description and see when reading Jewish history.”
I never heard or learned the term misnagid until I encountered Chabad. The terms I heard to describe Jews from my grandparents and frum relatives were Litvak, German (not Yekke), Chassidic, MO, etc.July 13, 2023 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #2208198
George Eastman didn’t start Eastman Kodak until 1892. That’s 59 years after spread of modern photography.
Think Mathew Brady photographing the acivil Ear in the 1869s or Queen Victoria and Prince Albert being photographed in the 1840s.
EditedJuly 13, 2023 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2208209
Dont make me use all caps
Let me try this one last time
Any one self identifying as a misnagid is doing so bc he doesn’t respect the chassidik philosophy. If he simply wanted to self identify as someone from a litvish background, he would call himself a litvak.
The historic misnagdim where in open conflict. Shiva was sat on some who went “off the derech” and joined the chassidim. So if you are in open and vocal opposition and you denigrate the philosophy. If you call their practices akin to avodeh zora, why would you take offense when they respond in kind?
Do you really see a major difference between the word snag and telling someone his practices are akin to avodeh zara?July 13, 2023 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #2208254
“Any one self identifying as a misnagid is doing so bc he doesn’t respect the chassidik philosophy.”
Not so. Exhibit A: CTLAWYER.
“Do you really see a major difference between the word snag and telling someone his practices are akin to avodeh zara?”
Yup. And I’ve already explained it above. Let me know if you need all-caps.July 13, 2023 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #2208262
“No one said anything about an irrational hatred of anyone… Nor did anyone say anything about sitting around and bashing people.”
You said, and I quote: “You will hear the same pejoratives in all my misnagdish familiy homes, just in the reverse.”
“we all prefer our own minhagim and to an extent look down on the minhagim”
No. Non-psychotic people don’t do that. Do you also use pejoratives for Sphardim? They also have different minhagim that you presumably look down on.
“I (and CT) are the non chassidim defending the other side here.”
It didn’t escape me. The part of this argument which Avram and I are are involved in is the issue of certain Chabadniks having hatred towards large groups of frum yidden. You are providing a general, non-partisan defense of hatred, which is why we’re arguing with you as well. For the record, I do NOT think CTLawyer is still with you, but I can’t speak for him any more than you can. All he said is that he had ancestors who identified as misnagdim. He never said we should look down on other minhagim and use pejoratives for other groups.
“Yet you are being pretty persistent about calling out others on there beliefs.”
When? I don’t think I’ve really been involved in the philosophical part of this.July 13, 2023 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #2208269
You are correct in stating I never said to look down at other groups and their minhagim. I was quite explicit in my objective to the system of Chassidic Courts and Dynasties, not the individual adherents to a Chassidus.
I also stated that OOT we support all Jewish groups, institutions, etc. I am typing this after just having checked my on line banking. I saw a check had cleared my account for $180. I clicked on the entry and saw it was contribution to Colel Chabad in response to their Shavous mailing. I don’t say, just because I disagree with the Dynastic system, I won’t support charitable requests.
Currently, in addition to my normal learning sdarim I am learning the Mishnah Torah on the 3 chapters a day cycle set up by Chabad. There is nothing to oppose in that endeavor.
We are in the midst of summer vacation periods before the 9 days. My minyan chat saw that we are short for tonight. I had no qualms about calling local Chabad to ensure a tenth, just as I went earlier in the month when a minyan was needed at Chabad for a yahrzeit.
Philosophical differences can be put aside for the greater goodJuly 13, 2023 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #2208278
>>>Like one day on CR a Lubavitcher will adamantly deny that there is such a thing as an Elokist. However, within the same thread a different Lubavitcher will go on a whole thing explaining how his Rebbe is “Atzmus Nasi HaDor” and we can direct our teffilos to him and he will answer them.
Lots of terms can be understood differently by different people, and that’s where most arguments happen (i.e. both sides usually agree, but don’t understand each other).
The idea of “עצמות ומהות ווי ער האט זיך אריינגעשטעלט אין א גוף” – whatever it means – is a direct quote from the Rebbe, so I don’t think any Lubavitcher would deny this. The idea of asking brochos from the Rebbe is also accepted in all circles of Chabad.
What these ideas mean is up for lots of discussion and have indeed been topics of endless debate in the CR.
What I think a Lubavitcher means when he denies that there is such a thing as Elokist is, in simple, unambiguous words:
I have never met a Lubavitcher who has the Rebbe in mind when davening shmoneh esrei, or says “Yechi Boreinu” (I’ve met plenty who say Yechi adoneinu moreinu v’rabeinu melech hamoshiach leolam vaed, but I’ve never ever heard or seen “boreinu” ch”v).
I mentioned once in the CR that I’ve only heard of one yungerman (baal teshuva) who espouses these views, and he’s shunned by all (including by extreme, flag waving, yechi yarmulka wearing bochurim).
>>>Every time the Moshiach discussion happens, there’s someone who will claim that it’s really just one rich guy who spends all his time and money on the signs and everyone hates him.
They may be referring specifically to the billboards and over-obsession.
However, it is true that most Lubavitchers believe (based on their understanding of chassidus and the Rebbe’s sichos) that the Rebbe will rise in techiyas hameisim (or “be revealed”) before the Geula happens, and take the Yidden out of golus as Moshiach.
>>>there are literally Chabad houses and synagogues with a giant picture up on the mizrach vant.
I have been to plenty of Chabad Houses and shuls all over the world, yet I’ve never ever seen a picture of the Rebbe on mizrach vant.
The vast majority of shuls I’ve been to don’t have a picture of the Rebbe in shul at all (they will often have one in the hallway or lobby).
In very few shuls (usually the more extreme meshichist ones – none of which are official shluchim under Merkos L’Inyonei Chinuch) – I have seen a picture of the Rebbe in shul, but never in the mizrach vant.
I am honestly curious if you could name some of those shuls and Chabad Houses which are as you claim.July 13, 2023 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #2208279
>>>the time spent with a misnagid was so odious that it was equivalent to being imprisoned falsely by gentiles? . . . And the idea that being questioned by another Jew is equivalent to being victimized. R’ Moshe Feinstein ZT”L encountered strong opposition to some of his rulings (e.g., chalav stam) from chassidishe rebbes, and some of their disciples even behaved rudely towards him, but the Jews who opposed him were not enshrined in American Litvak lore as being villains.
I must say, this is not a very honest comparison.
This was not a case of “being questioned by another Jew” or people “behaving rudely toward him.”
The Alter Rebbe is known to have had great debates and dialogue with the misnagdim.
In this case, the Alter Rebbe was just released from prison, where he was arrested for treason (death sentence r”l) because of a libel by the misnagdim, of which Reb Noteh Notkin was very outspoken and instrumental.
To be released from prison, only to be transferred to the home of this man who used this as an opportunity to (verbally) attack him for three hours straight is understandably an incredible tzar.
I’m not sure if I fully understand it, but this is what the Rebbe Rayatz said in the name of his father about why the Alter Rebbe was so pained by being in the house of the misnaged (שיחת י”ט כסלו תרצ”ג):
“הגאולה היתה בעת תפלת מנחה, ואותן הג’ תפלות של אותו המעת לעת היו עמדו הבעש”ט והרב המגיד נ”ע, ואותן הג’ שעות שישב בבית דירת המנגד כידוע, הי’ לו אז צער גדול יותר מכל המאסר, כי לאחר שכבר נצח הענין – כי ישיבתו במאסר הי’ ענין רוחני (היינו על רוחניות הענינים) וכאשר הענין נצח – הרי עניני גופו הק’ לא היו נוגעים לו, דאס האט דאך אים ניט גיארט, היינט זיין אין איינעם מיטן מגיד, און הערין דעם בעל שם, קאן מען זיך משער זיין, אז דעם רבי’ן האט ניט גיארט להתעכב עוד ג’ שעות ועוד יום שלם, ובכן כאשר בשרוהו כי חפשי הוא, לא חפץ ללכת משם.”
ובמ”א מבואר: “ובהיותו עם המגיד, ובשמעו את הבעש”ט, מובן גודל הצער ללכת משם לאיזה בית, ועוד לביתו של מנגד!”July 13, 2023 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #2208280
>>>Currently, in addition to my normal learning sdarim I am learning the Mishnah Torah on the 3 chapters a day cycle set up by Chabad.
Maybe we can start a thread discussing the daily Rambam 🙂July 13, 2023 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #2208288
Notkin, from what I’ve read, helped in getting the baal hatanya releasedJuly 13, 2023 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #2208290
Chabad .org calls nota notkin a leader of misnagdim….he wasn’t a rov according to articles online about him; definitely wasn’t a gadol or rov of a community… it seems chabad has their own vision of history.July 13, 2023 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #2208309
Re: Napoleon – the question is not about general attitude towards him but specifically in his war against Russian Empire. Chasam Sofer did not live there. I believe non-chabad Polish Rebbes supported N. Vilno community also. Reportedly, a French general visited Chaim Volozhiner and ask what he thinks about his army prospects. R Chaim answered with a moshal: a nobleman rides a cart with several expensive horses and gets stuck in mud. He sees a peasant with two thin horses passing him. He asks – how come I got stuck and you did not? Peasant answers: your horses are strong but each pulling in their own direction. My two horses work together – when one is pulling, the other is resting, and the cart never stops [see physics about stationary tension AAQ]. What do you learn about R Chaim’s politics?July 13, 2023 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #2208310
kiruv v. bikur cholim > The point was that different groups have different shticks.
My point is that it is not a shtick but a generational emergency. Gemora talks about chassid shoteh who does not save a drowning lady because he does not want to touch her. I would extend this: the chosid might say – I am on the way to the hospital for bikur cholim or on the way to kollel and learning is keneged kulam.July 13, 2023 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #2208313
“Chabad .org calls nota notkin a leader of misnagdim….he wasn’t a rov according to articles online about him; definitely wasn’t a gadol or rov of a community…”
I couldn’t find much information about him, but it seems he was more of a maskil than a misnagid. He did a lot of advocating for Jews to the Russian government, but he also sought to open schools where Russian language and other secular subjects would be taught, and to try and bring Jews into civil service (and hence out of the Pale of Settlement).July 14, 2023 12:32 am at 12:32 am #2208314
“I must say, this is not a very honest comparison.”
Curious as to why you chose to describe the point as not honest as opposed to incorrect or mistaken.
“In this case, the Alter Rebbe was just released from prison, where he was arrested for treason (death sentence r”l) because of a libel by the misnagdim”
Of the misnagdim? Collective blame? Did they get 30 pieces of silver? Did they declare his blood be on us and our children forever?
“of which Reb Noteh Notkin was very outspoken and instrumental.”
Guilt by association?July 14, 2023 12:32 am at 12:32 am #2208319
Avram: The terms Misnaged and Yekkes are widely used outside of Chabad. Generally in non-derogatory context in contemporary contexts but sometimes (regarding Misnagid) critically when relating historical information. But both Misnagid and Yekke are used both as a self-identification, obviously non self-critically, as well as by others applying it to those who identify as it.
But self-identifying as a Misnagid is mostly in a historical context. Until the resolution of the Misnagid-Chasidic conflict (which was essentially resolved almost two centuries ago, with the two sides mutually respecting each other ever since), it was common for the Misnagdim to identify with that self-chosen term. Since the resolution it is only very few “Misnagdim” that still identify themselves with that description.July 14, 2023 12:33 am at 12:33 am #2208318
“I would extend this: the chosid might say – I am on the way to the hospital for bikur cholim or on the way to kollel and learning is keneged kulam.”
So we should stop practicing our religion so we can focus all energy on attracting people back to our religion which we don’t actually practice? I think you’re mixed up on who the “chosid shoteh” is here.
I know you’re not going to listen to me, so maybe talk to whoever in Chabad is clearly influencing you, because even they would object to what you’re saying. Nobody says everyone should be mevatel other mitzvos to focus solely on kiruv.
“Chasam Sofer did not live there.”
He lived between France and Russia, and he presumably didn’t think Napoleon was going to jump over central Europe to reach Russia. Stopping his advance in central Europe means stopping before Russia. Anyway, as I said, I’m sure there are exceptions. I have no idea why it is so important to some people to believe that the Baal Hatanya was a daas yochid on this issue, especially given that it isn’t so cut and dry that Napoleon would have been the worse outcome for the Jews.July 14, 2023 12:33 am at 12:33 am #2208317
“Sorry for all the typos in my last comment.”
CTL: I was just about to suggest you give some more training and instructions to your paralegal. I was sure they were her typos, as your personally drafted legal documents are always a pleasure to read. But since you owned up to your errors, may I suggest that you perhaps need more rest and should delegate your CR comments be proof-read by your legal assistant prior to submission?July 14, 2023 8:12 am at 8:12 am #2208325
Menachem Shmei: I posted a comment to your attention above.July 14, 2023 8:12 am at 8:12 am #2208326
Avram, i read he was maskilish too, but i didn’t want to write it because it’s all from secular sources…people claim that many figures were maskilim, or close to them, which are mistakes.
So because i don’t accept their accounts as a given, i chose not to passel a yid who I know nothing about, who for all i know could have been a very good jew. But to call him a leader of Litvishe jewry, as chabad did on their office website, is ludicrous.July 14, 2023 8:13 am at 8:13 am #2208327
Avram doesn’t live under a rock, and neither do I. We know full well how the word misnaged is used in contemporary contexts. I think the point he made about the word “Pharisee” better demonstrates what we’re trying to say than anything else.July 14, 2023 8:14 am at 8:14 am #2208336
>>>Notkin, from what I’ve read, helped in getting the baal hatanya released
This is indeed true, but about a later time:
After his encounter with the Alter Rebbe, Notkin completely changed his relationship with chassidim, and he used his government connections to assist in releasing the Alter Rebbe from his second arrest two years later. (His assistance was on condition that the Alter Rebbe meet with three gedolei hamisnagdim, which he indeed did.)
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