Rabonim Crusade Against Sushi

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  • #608588

    verapoi yerapei
    Participant

    Just an observation. I have heard three different hilchos Brachos Shiurim in the last year or so and the bracha on sushi was brought up. For some reason everyone of them had to give a 5 miute shpiel how they dont understand the point of sushi or “its not a yiddeshe maichal”. Why do they get so worked up about it. Is it okay to be into kishke but not sushi. If we are already talking about being porush from gashmius, being in to “heimish” food is just as megushem as being into sushi. Any thoghts as to why this strikes a nerve?

    #938542

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    brocha issues

    #938543

    mdd
    Member

    Some Rabbis do not like anything new or unusual — something they are not used to. Derech klal “the heimish” cuisine comes from Eastern and Central Europe!

    #938544

    akuperma
    Participant

    No one says its treff.

    The only Jewish food is matza. The rest we copied from the goyim (even gefilte fish). Yidden are too busy with Torah and Mitsvos to invent our own cuisine.

    #938545

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Please. Everyone knows that Sushi was invented by two Yidden who opened up a restaurant on the Lower East Side but couldn’t afford an oven.

    #938546

    charliehall
    Participant

    Sushi is probably a lot healthier than the “heimish” cuisine, which as pointed out isn’t Jewish in origin but Eastern European. Japan has the healthiest and longest lived people in the world.

    #938547

    yichusdik
    Participant

    VY, Just an observation. The use of the term “crusade” in any Jewish context is way more out of place than the consumption of sushi.

    #938548

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Kishka is my favorite Hemish food, but its poison

    #938549

    I can’t think of any other (sometimes) four-bracha food.

    -mezonos (rice)

    -ho’adama (cucumber, etc.)

    -ha’aitz (avocado, etc.)

    -shehakol (fish)

    #938550

    verapoi yerapei
    Participant

    yichusdik, fair point. as far as the bracha, i agree it is somehwat of an issue. there is a clal in some rishoinim that if there is no hachraa then u can make shehakol lechatchila, but I hear not wanting to be soimech on that. and to akuperma, I am in total agreement with you. There is no such thing as “jewish” food that is somewhat more kodoish because we ate it in Europe. So why is sushi worse?

    #938552

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    It is a great way to show how frum you are

    #938553

    ari-free
    Participant

    Almost every kosher restaurant now has sushi. The pizza stores sell it. The non-Japanese steakhouses all have it. The supermarkets sell it and many people have sushi for shabbos night instead of gefilte fish. Our supermarket gives a good discount on Friday because sushi isn’t good even a day later in the fridge. And it’s not because of the fish-the rice gets hard.

    #938554

    It’s interesting/funny to me to watch people rail and cry and criticize anything that didnt come over to America from “the alter heim”

    I wonder if the further we get away from our “European roots” you will see things like Kishke, Kugel, Gefilte Fish, and the rest of the “hemishe” diet die out.

    #938555

    haifagirl
    Participant

    I have trouble understanding the problem with the brocha.

    Let’s take an analogy:

    The brocha on celery is ha’adamah. Now, if I make tuna salad, in addition to the tuna I might put in celery, pickles, onions, mayonnaise, garlic, maybe a few other things. When you are at my home for a meal, I would offer you some “tuna.” I wouldn’t say, “Would you like some tuna with celery, mayonnaise, etc.?”

    So, if I offer you something called “rice,” why isn’t the brocha what one would make on rice? Is it because I say “rice” in Japanese instead of English? Does that really make a difference?

    #938556

    sharp
    Member

    Some people have a problem with pizza too.

    In general, anything “new” will be frowned upon, and sushi is still new to them.

    They will carry on about sushi until the next new food hits the shops. It doesn’t necessarily have to do with davka sushi.

    #938557

    ari-free
    Participant

    Another reason why Asian cuisine is popular is because there is hardly any basar v’chalav issues. European cuisine is full of basar v’chalav issues and it is much harder to find substitutions. Sour cream was just left out of the fleishig borscht. Then there are the desserts…

    #938558

    “They could eat it, we can not!”

    #938559

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    What Rabbanim have “declared a crusade against Sushi”

    #938560

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Sushi is delicious. My mother likes to cook it.

    #938561

    Mammele
    Participant

    There’s actually a recent British article “How sushi can make you fat”. Especially our Western version is full of simple carbs, salt and even sugar (in the soy sauce) with very little protein or nutritional value.

    It’s a very informative read.

    #938562

    Mammele
    Participant

    A part of the above mentioned article:

    #938563

    ari-free
    Participant

    It’s a lot less than those deep fried batter dipped overstuffed pastrami sandwiches that I’d like to make.

    #938564

    ari-free
    Participant

    crab sticks (processed fish that is flavoured and coloured to look and taste like crab)

    Note: the Japanese came up with this. You are eating authentic Japanese sushi even when you have this fake kosher crab.

    #938565

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    Thee is an inyan brought in seforim that some Yidden are on the level to be concerned with. It is called Maachal Akum, a food that is currently clearly idnetified with a specific non Jewish nationality. The Orchas Tzadikim in the first Perek speaks of separating ourselves from non Jews in our foods as well. It means from food CURRENTLY primarily identified with non Jews. So there are Chashuve Yidden who mean it for real and who would not eat Pizza or spaghetti because it is associated with Italians, or Chinese food ( China….. duh) or Sushi ( Japanese) but would eat lukshin, herring etc…. because they are not currently associated with non Jews. But if the origin of something was non Jewish but it has lost that identity, it would not fall into that category.

    It may part of a madreiga of Kedoshim Tihyu- Perushim Tihyu. we need to respect those that are ready to do that even if we are not.

    #938566

    ari-free
    Participant

    The bagel is probably a Jewish invention. Pastrami definitely is. You will not confuse it with the dried cumin flavored pastirma.

    Jews didn’t invent too many dishes but pastrami is so good that when it was introduced to Montreal, the name was changed to Montreal Smoked Beef and Celine Dion decided to own a deli. And that’s the way it is.

    #938567

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    haifagirl:

    So, if I offer you something called “rice,” why isn’t the brocha what one would make on rice? Is it because I say “rice” in Japanese instead of English? Does that really make a difference?

    Actually, if you want to look at the matter from a historical perspective, the ikkar is definitely NOT the rice. Fish farmers used to preserve their fish by pressing them between sheets of vinegared rice. When they used the fish, they would throw out the rice. Eventually they decided to just eat the rice too. 😛 Don’t know what impact this would have on the bracha, though.

    #938568

    Ðash®
    Participant

    Is it because I say “rice” in Japanese instead of English? Does that really make a difference?

    Except for the fact that sushi doesn’t acually mean rice, it means fermented.

    #938569

    ari-free
    Participant

    So it would be like saying shehakol on an ice cream sandwich?

    #938570

    mdd
    Member

    RABBAIM, one does not make machos about a midas chassidus. Anyhow, I have to double-check “Orchos Tzadikim” to see if he really says what you claim he says.

    #938571

    havarka
    Member

    verapoi yerapei:

    Is it okay to be into kishke but not sushi. If we are already talking about being porush from gashmius, being in to “heimish” food is just as megushem as being into sushi.

    You are 100% right.

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    #938572

    verapoi yerapei
    Participant

    Rabbaim, you are wrong. in Holland the sell herring on every street corner the way New York has hot dogs. So based on your logic you shouldn’t eat herring, especially since it is associated with such a proste society.

    #938573

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is nothing spiritual or Holy about Herring, Its just plain nasty YUCH!!!!

    #938574

    ari-free
    Participant

    No no no. You have to eat the herring in the morning after davening with a piece of kichel and some schnapps. That’s what makes it Jewish.

    #938575

    phrum
    Member

    There should be no bracha issues as their seudas should be koveh on pas with a motzei before the first piece of maki or nigiri anyway!

    #938576

    ari-free
    Participant

    Herring is not ‘yuch.’ It melts in your mouth. Like butter.

    It’s almost like eating a nice piece of sashimi with soy sauce.

    #938577

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    I have to add my two-cents to this conversation,even though herring is a lot more expensive now. herring is the gift of the sea to all jews! try it as shmalz herring, try it as pickled herring, try it in sour creram…wonderful food ! the best with a shot of whidky and an egg kuchel!

    #938578

    old man
    Participant

    A couple of general thoughts:

    1. The idea of abstaining from kosher foods that are primarily associated with goyishe cuisine is borderline ridiculous. The vague pronouncement that this spiritual concept is “brought down in seforim” is wholly unconvincing and plays manipulatively on visceral emotions. I don’t give it any weight at all.

    2. I disagree on a fundamental level of abstaining from a food because the brochoh is difficult to determine. Study the halachic sources, weigh the various opinions, come to a conclusion, and defend it. In short, pasken, that’s why a Rav has smicha; to rule on an issue, not to waffle on it.

    #938579

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Do you know why Herring is eating with Schnapps?

    So the Schanpps drowns down the taste and washes it down

    #938580

    wasserman
    Member

    It’s because of the fake crab, maybe they never got the memo.

    #938581

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    So now we know that you don’t like herring. Great. There are apparently many who savor the taste.

    Why do you try to force your tastes on others? There is no evidence that you are possesing of good taste.

    #938582

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    nishtdayngesheft – a bit strong of a response in defense of a pickled fish.

    #938583

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If you like it Gezundeheh, You can have my piece as well. Enjoy

    #938584

    mothepro
    Member

    I think that if indeed Rabbonim rail against it, it may not be about the food itself – nothing would seem inherently wrong with the food – but its about the attitude in general that when something new crops up, people just get ‘farkoift’ to it so quickly.

    There is a concept of not going for the latest fads in goyish society. Even if the item itself isn’t technically problematic halachically, we still don’t look for new distractions coming from the outside world.

    Sadly, in other aspects of life, we see how peoples eagerness to invite and welcome new fashions has changed Klal Yisroel so much over recent years.

    So whether chulent and kugel were at some point introduced to klal yisroel in the same way – i.e. as a local fad that was going round – is irrelevant. Right now they are not new fashionable things and therefore they are ‘just food’. Sushi will also be like that in the future. But right now, it is a little discomforting to see how a food fad that hits the goyish world seems to have the same appeal and speedy assimilation in the Jewish world.

    #938585

    sharp
    Member

    mothepro, Not because people get ‘farkoift’ to it so quickly. Because it’s new. Any new concept is challenging.

    When Sara Schenirer opened the first Bais Yaakov it was the biggest controversy in Europe at the time. Imagine the world without Bais Yaakovs now… At the time, school for girls was the ‘new’ thing.

    So any new thing is a problem as long as it’s new.

    I’m not trying to compare sushi in any way to Sara Schenirer’s Bais Yaakov movement, just used an example of a ‘new’ concept…

    #938586

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    What type is “Gezundeheh”? Is it very fatty? Is it perhaps a cross between pickled and matjes in cream sauce? I have never heard of it, but I am by no means a boki in herring.

    Syag,

    I wasn’t defending herring, I personally do not eat herring. I was defending someone’s right to eat and enjoy herring. Which ZD feels is inappropriate.

    #938587

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Where did I say to ban herring?

    I said I hated it and thought it was disgusting.

    If you want to eat Herring enjoy yourself

    #938588

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Zd,

    I didn’t say you said it should be banned. Read what I wrote. You were horrified that people were enjoying it.

    Finally you changed your tune.

    Probably what you meant, is that you do not like it. That’s all you had to say, if you felt that it is important that everyone knows that you do not like herring.

    #938589

    mothepro
    Member

    Sharp,

    You give an example of Soroh Schneirer but then say you aren’t comparing it. Thats problematic as I would respond to your comparison but now cannot as you have already said its not a comparison.

    I do not think there is a problem with something new specifically. The problem is when people get ‘taken’ by new ideas and concepts. When that happens it can cause problems.

    And even when it happens in items that are not bad inherently, they are indicative of a nature of a people, that when a new thing hits, everyone gets excited. If a new type of limmud system hit Klal Yisroel and it spread really quickly, that would be good. If a new type of food starts becoming wildly popular, that says something else.

    #938590

    cherrybim
    Participant

    I can only try – “I can’t think of any other (sometimes) four-bracha food.”

    What about Stuffed cabbage?

    -mezonos (rice)

    -ho’adama (cabbage)

    -ha’aitz (raisins)

    -shehakol (meat)

    #938591

    charliehall
    Participant

    “it is a little discomforting to see how a food fad that hits the goyish world seems to have the same appeal and speedy assimilation in the Jewish world”

    I’m a lot more discomforted to see Jews eating cheeseburgers. Look, the better and more varied the kosher options, the more Jews will be willing to keep kosher!

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