Same gender marriage- immoral?

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  • #597661

    simcha613
    Participant

    There are some sins that are inherently immoral- murder and robbery are two examples. If I wasn’t Jewish, and I didn’t have a Torah to guide my path I would still be anti-murder and anti-robbery. Does same gender marriage fall within this group of sins? If you didn’t have a Torah to guide you, would you have voted yes or no for same gender marriage? Why?

    #781255

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If 2 people have been together a long time (say 10 years) and one of them gets sick and has to go to the Hospital. And the family of the sick one does not like the lifestyle that was chosen

    The family would have the right NOT to let the well partner in the hospital and sick their sick partner

    #781256

    hudi
    Participant

    If I was an informed non-Jew I would know that same gender “marriage” falls under gillui arayos.

    #781257

    I don’t understand why I should care at all what laws goyim decide to pass for themselves, when the laws don’t affect me in the least bit.

    #781258

    charliehall
    Participant

    ‘If I was an informed non-Jew I would know that same gender “marriage” falls under gillui arayos.’

    Only a marriage between two men.

    #781259

    In my opinion it is disgusting! Being around alot of non-Jews who take care of my mother, i asked their opinion and they too felt the same. No they are not religious! We have to do whatever we can not to let this finalize…let’s remember what happened to Sodom!

    #781260

    kollel_wife
    Participant

    A non Jew who is intellectually honest understands that the normal marriage relationship produces children, and the other types of marriages do not. He understands that historically all religions have considered this type of behavior immoral; that in the past doctors and psychologists considered it deviant. He can see that ONLY in this generation of “all is ok” have the natural order of things been twisted and changed.

    He might say – why are so many people in the non Jewish world not against this lifestyle? The same way the Nazi soldiers chose the path of evil and cruelty despite their natural human kindness G-d created them with, people can choose to pursue a corrupt, deviant way of life to such an extent that they no longer OBJECTIVELY can recognize the NATURAL way the world was created to function.

    #781261

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    People do not choose this lifestyle. Do you really think someone would choose to behave in a way that most people think is disgusting , immoral or otherwise strange.

    #781262

    minyan gal
    Member

    As most of you know, I am a Conservative Jew – and I consider myself to be a religious Conservative Jew. I am very familiar with the words of the Torah that deal with the topic of homosexuality. I actually find it very interesting that in the Torah, the topic is dealt with in very few words, yet millions of words have been used in the discussions of the topic. I do not believe in gay “marriage” or “unions” of whatever they call these pairings. However, playing the devil’s advocate, I can see the other side of the argument and discuss it rationally. Many of these couples have cohabited for decades. As partners, I can understand their desire for the tax and health insurance benefits that are afforded to married heterosexual couples. Also, as mentioned above, they would like the right to give medical consent for their partner. This understanding of their side of the story in no way indicates my support for these unions.

    #781263

    RedNails19
    Participant

    waaay to controversial 2 discuss here…

    #781264

    haifagirl
    Participant

    How many more things does Hashem have to send before people realize they have to leave the U.S. and COME HOME!

    #781265

    charliehall
    Participant

    “A non Jew who is intellectually honest understands that the normal marriage relationship produces children”

    Actually lots of marriages do not produce children and Jews are encouraged to marry even late in life when children are impossible.

    #781266

    Rainus
    Participant

    Same gender arrangements between men are immoral. The Talmud says that this is one of the crimes for which the Great Flood was visited upon the world. Thus, G-d expects gentiles to have that much understanding. And if they have created a decadent society that can intellectually argue for the beauty and morality of such relationships, that is mankind’s failing. They were not created that way.

    Same gender arrangements between women though, cannot be considered immoral. There is not even a clear Issur for Jews to engage in this practice. The Talmud deems it disgusting and shameful but the courts are not empowered to enforce their separation. Although this clearly demonstrates our duty to shun such behaviour, it can be argued that something that is merely shameful and disgusting for a Jew, without minimizing its gravity, may be acceptable for gentiles.

    #781267

    I don’t understand why there is so much emphasis on the actual “marriage”. Regardless of whether they are “married” or not they will still do their aveiros. The “marriage” isn’t a heicha timtzah to it. Why should it matter whether they are allowed to get “married” or not?

    Just to be clear, I don’t endorse this aveirah chamurah. I just don’t understand why there is any emphasis on something that will not stop people from being oiver to begin with.

    #781268

    abcd2
    Participant

    To Derech Hamelech: I do not understand how you say this law does not effect you, It now gives us another thing that is acceptable to the outside world which we will have to grasp with. Imagine if such a couple lives on your block and your child will come home and ask you, look what a nice loving family why is it wrong?To say that the Torah forbids it when your child might see that they seem very happy is a very hard lesson. Additionally,this whole situation has bought lewd behavior into the forefront of everyday conversation. And Bichlal when something is accepted by general society it is very hard to make a strong geder to protect ourselves,you must realize this law will give a level of comfort to Jewish (including otherwise Frum people, we are all frum aside from our aveiros whatever they may be) gay people who struggle with this to say it should be accepted and now science and society agrees with us.

    #781269

    RSRH
    Member

    abcd2: If my child comes home and asks me about the couple down the street, my answer is simple: “My child, I simply don’t know *why* its wrong. There seems to be no *rational reason* why homosexual couples cannot legally commit themselves to each other’s physical, economic, and emotional well-being. I can’t explain it to you in rationale terms. However, I have made a conscious decision in my life to follow the halacha. I believe firmly that this is what God wants of us for our own benefit. I try hard to understand why God wants what he does. Sometimes I just don’t. Sometimes what God want’s seems unjust, dare I say, morally wrong. And sometimes my emotions get the better of me and I don’t act the way God would have me do. But my child, I try hard never to forget where my obligations lie. Whether or not I understand or can explain the halacha, I do it anyway. I believe God has instructed me to do so. I know how hard that must be for you sometimes; it is for me too. I just hope you will learn to appreciate this lifestyle and these laws, and to believe as I do that whether or not we understand *why,* we must still try our best to do.

    #781270

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    There is a Medrash (in Medrash Rabba) on the pasuk that describes Eisav as a man of the fields that discusses same gender relationships.

    The Medrash states that in the End of Days the nations will recognize recognize same gender relationships.

    Klal Yisroel will ask Hakodosh Boruch Hu after all the tzar we have been through in Golus we must have this tzar also to be under a nation that recognizes same gender relationships?

    #781271

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Imagine if such a couple lives on your block and your child will come home and ask you, look what a nice loving family why is it wrong?To say that the Torah forbids it when your child might see that they seem very happy is a very hard lesson.

    Imagine if a cheeseburger eater lives on your block and your child will come home and ask you, look what a nice looking cheeseburger why is it wrong? To say that the Torah forbids it when your child might see that they seem very happy is a very hard lesson.

    As per the OP, is Hedonisim immoral? Perhaps not, especially without any oncept of morality (which is intrinsic to Hedonism).

    #781272

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Klal Yisroel will ask Hakodosh Boruch Hu after all the tzar we have been through in Golus

    May G-d bless the Tzar, and keep him…. Far away from us!

    (From Fiddler on the Roof)

    #781273

    minyan gal
    Member

    RSRH – you said “Sometimes what God want’s seems unjust, dare I say, morally wrong. “

    A couple of years ago I took a Jewish Ethics course, which is one part of a 2 year program affiliated with the Hebrew University. The instructor has full rabbinic training, but no smicha – he practices law. When we came to this topic, he explained that he fully believes in all the laws of the Torah and he fully believes that the Torah was given to Moses on Mount Sinai (and he is Conservative), but in this case he thinks that Hashem “got it wrong”. To say that most of us were shocked is an understatement.

    #781274

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Gavra-at-work

    The difference between a cheeseburger eater and the recently passed legislation is that the attempt is being made to frame all those who are anti such behaviour as racist and bigots.

    #781275

    shein
    Member

    Derech: Allowing this license, further legitimizes this perversion. I doubt your Rosh Yeshiva agrees with your nonchalant attitude of not caring about the morality. What about Tikun Haolam, if nothing else? You don’t care if the goyim violate the sheva mitzvos? No problem with legalized abortion? Do you have a problem with legalizing murder? Issuing a toeiva license is specifically prohibited for goyim according to the gemorah.

    #781276

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There are no goyim on your block with kids??

    Did you kids ever meet one and want to play with them?

    The reason they want marriage is because of rights that come with marriage.

    You have the right to inherit your spouses estate

    You have the right to put your spouse on your health insurance

    You have the right to file a joint tax return (with a lower tax rate – this is not availabel at this time because thats federal not state)

    You have the right to make medical decisions for your spouse

    #781277

    abcd2: I agree with everything you say. The only difference I see is that, until now these “couples” were living together but without the title “married”. Now they have the title “married. Nothing changed in metziyus. And that’s what I don’t understand. They were doing what they do anyway. It is only their title that changed.

    #781278

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If you are worried about your kids playing with their kids

    I seriously doubt too many of them are moving to Borough Park or Flatbush. Williamsburgh maybe. but thats it

    #781279

    danielb43
    Member

    Even without considering the Halacha, same gender relations and same gender “marriage” are simply unnatural. No law can change that, just as you can’t legislate against the law of gravity.

    #781280

    mdd
    Member

    Zahavasdad, people would.

    #781281

    mdd
    Member

    Charliehall , it is unnatural and disgusting.

    #781282

    Ben Levi:

    There is a Medrash (in Medrash Rabba) on the pasuk that describes Eisav as a man of the fields that discusses same gender relationships.

    There is no such Medrash on the pasuk you say. Would you mind looking into that and letting me know the right pasuk?

    #781283

    Health
    Participant

    Rainus -“Same gender arrangements between women though, cannot be considered immoral. There is not even a clear Issur for Jews to engage in this practice. The Talmud deems it disgusting and shameful but the courts are not empowered to enforce their separation. Although this clearly demonstrates our duty to shun such behaviour, it can be argued that something that is merely shameful and disgusting for a Jew, without minimizing its gravity, may be acceptable for gentiles.”

    You are so off the beaten path of Judaism, it’s very sad.

    It’s clearly Ossur for Jewish women to engage in this behavior, either D’orysa or D’rabbonom. Even for a Goy, two women together might not be Ossur because it’s not one of the 7 Mitzvos Bnai Noach, but it’s a disgusting, low behavior. You see this from the Torah about Mitzrayim. Most Goyim who believe in G-d don’t want to do something that G-d considers an abomination, this includes two women together!

    #781284

    bpt
    Participant

    If marriage is about tax benefits and companionship, then I see the argument.

    If the goal of marriage is to build the next gen, I see no other alternative to cross gender matching.

    #781285

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Derech HaMelech: Legalizing marriage is wrong because it makes a statement that these relationships are ok to have. Do they happen anyway? Yes, but we need to realize that while we can’t stop them, we can make sure people know they’re wrong. Legalizing marriage for them says it’s not wrong.

    #781286

    Health
    Participant

    Derech HaMelech – “I don’t understand why there is so much emphasis on the actual “marriage”. Regardless of whether they are “married” or not they will still do their aveiros. The “marriage” isn’t a heicha timtzah to it. Why should it matter whether they are allowed to get “married” or not?”

    2 Reasons:

    1. The Talmud says that this is one of the crimes for which the Great Flood was visited upon the world and that one of the reasons Hashem doesn’t bring destruction to the world is because Goyim who are Toeivas don’t write Kesubos one to another. (This means legal marriage!) Are you in favor of destruction of the world?

    #781287

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Derech Hamelech,

    It is in Medresh Rabbah on Parshas Toldos, in Parsha Samach Gimmel Siman Yud

    #781288

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Zahavasdad;

    That is not why they wanted marriage as they already had all those rights under the civil union law, Any rights they do not have is in regards to federal law because of DOMA (signed by Clinton, incidently) and Federal Law is not affected by the state law.

    #781289

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I know of a few too and some even got married to a member of the opposite gender. Was that really fair to the spouse. Do you really think they were happy about divorcing their spouse and likely seperating themselves from their children.

    How about the normal spouse. How do you think they feel that they were married to such a person.

    #781290

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Personally I would be worried for Jewish Saftey on account of this bill.

    America by and large is a religous country if you go out in the south or Midwest constitutional amendments banning such “marriages” were passed by wide margins i.e 80% in some cases.

    This fight to make those who feel such behavior is immoral be seen as “racists” is being led by many Frei Jews and the undercurrents of a backlash is already being whispered about.

    In essence there are many irreligous Jews who are attempting to tell the majority of Americans they are racists because deeply held religous views.

    If that is not dangerous I don’t know what is.

    #781291

    The whole problem is that instead of those who struggle with this problem asking for help, they turn it into a lifestyle.

    It is like reform that made a movement out of breaking halacha – or clans of tzigane in this part of the world who have been making a living from stealing and begging for generations now and claiming it is their ancestral way of life.

    Those dealing with this toeva should be storming Congress the way yenna machla patients, genetic disease sufferers, spinal cord injury victims LA etc are doing to ask for research and a cure for their disorder. They should not be legitimizing this any more than a kleptomaniac or a pyromaniac should claim that his disorder is an alternative lifestyle.

    As for the marriages, the only ones who benefit will be the divorce lawyers. People with this toeva are very volatile and rarely maintain relationships over a long period of time (yes, there are exceptions).

    #781292

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    @benLevi

    Seperate but Equal is inheritely unequal

    If someone is blind, they make do with their lot in life and if someone has those inclinations they also have to make due in life

    #781293

    adorable
    Participant

    NY is such a sick place to live

    #781294

    In addition, you do not have to hold any religious beliefs to realize that this toeva is contrary to how nature means for us to function. As for my favorite non-argument that animals have been observed doing this, and I myself have seen it BTW – those same animals eat their young. Is this the level at which civilized society operates? Maybe in Sodom of old, or in Amin’s Uganda – but nowhere else.

    Again, there are other conditions of unknown origin that make it hard for people to function naturally – but sufferers want to be freed from these conditions, not to be proud of them.

    #781295

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If NY is such a sick place to live why are there more frum jews in NY than anywhere else in the world

    #781296

    What is more, I can just see what will soon happen.

    HIV + individuals from Muslim and other backward countries will come to the US as refugees from persecution, and enter into a toeva marriage so they can stay in the country. They will then spread a new strain of this disease that will also affect those who are not baalei toeva.

    #781298

    Health
    Participant

    Zahavasdad – “I know of a few too and some even got married to a member of the opposite gender. Was that really fair to the spouse. Do you really think they were happy about divorcing their spouse and likely seperating themselves from their children.

    How about the normal spouse. How do you think they feel that they were married to such a person.”

    If those people that you know didn’t want to go OTD, like the ones I know, who said they should have gotten married, in the normal sense? If you have a mental problem, you seek help and then if you are normal enough -then you can get married!

    #781299

    adorable
    Participant

    convenience.

    #781300

    Health
    Participant

    adorable -“NY is such a sick place to live”

    So is Jersey!

    zahavasdad -“If NY is such a sick place to live why are there more frum jews in NY than anywhere else in the world”

    Good question. We ended up here because it’s on the coast after fleeing Europe. It’s high time to get out -We need Moshiach Now!

    #781301

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I hope the mods allow this

    I had a friend, who was in yeshiva. We used to hang out alot, go to peoples house for shabbos and I used to say many of the things people here said (this was before the issue of marriage came up).

    He seemed very down and very depressed, One day I sort of guessed what the situtation was , and I was floored.

    We are not that close anymore, he did come to my wedding and I did ask him to come alone and look like and act like everyone else (which he complied) but I did learn a lesson. Do I understand everything he went through, no. Would I choose this lifestyle for myself no.

    However I also learned that such people are not the people you see on TV or might see on the Subway

    #781302

    yungerman1
    Participant

    If everyone would involve themselves in same gender marraige and consider it on par with traditional marriage, the world would cease to exist….barring test tube babies. This tells me this is not the way the world was meant to be.

    #781303

    adorable
    Participant

    they live here because its close to lots of places and a nice place to live in terms of weather, kosher amenities….but the world in general is sick! Maybe a Jewish getto wouldn’t be so bad

    #781304

    Feif Un:

    I hear what you’re saying, but I think the people who know care about doing averios will be trying their best to stay away from this anyway, and the people who don’t care were doing it anyway.

    Health:

    1. Even though the world was destroyed, Noach who was not mishtatef, wasn’t. Maybe my problem is that I don’t care what happens to goyim.

    2. I think the problem is that they didn’t search for help and support from rabbonim. I’m sure a taivah like that is unimaginably hard to deal with, without proper support. If they weren’t getting it, I wouldn’t be surprised that they would be poirek ol.

    I just want to add, that I don’t support these things in anyway. I’m just talking from my own (probably krum) sevarah. I am not saying that toeivah is fine, because there is no rationalizing it. Its an aveira period. I just think that those that were being oiver until now, will continue to be oiver and those that weren’t still won’t.

    The only way this would be a problem to me, is if more Yidden would be oiver because of this law. And I don’t understand why that should be the case at this point.

    Ben Levi:

    I don’t have a Medrash Rabbah where I am now, so I’m using the one at HebrewBooks. According to the Medrash there, siman yud is on the pasuk about esav coming out red and it talks about the geulah and beis hamikdash. Nothing about toeivah.

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