saying good shabbos to girls (men)

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  • #604564

    shtiky shlo
    Member

    are you allowed to say good shabbos to a girl on the street tzinyus

    #892692

    shlishi
    Member

    This is a troll, insincere, bogus thread.

    #892693

    Sam2
    Participant

    It depends where you are. If it’s in a place where that’s expected, then it’s probably Assur not to. If it’s in a place where it’s expected not to, then it’s probably Assur to do it.

    #892694

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    are you allowed to say good shabbos to a girl on the street tzinyus

    When come back, bring English.

    The Wolf

    #892695

    OneOfMany
    Participant
    #892696

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Start with Rolos.

    #892697

    WIY
    Member

    Sam

    Who says its permitted for single men and women to exchange greetings on the street? Even if such a krum pritusdig (yes its krum and pritzusdik for single men and women to stam wish each other good shabbos) minhag took hold in a community its a minhag shtus and one need not abide by it. In all honesty he shouldnt even be looking at them and if he is looking down they very likely wont bother wishing him a good Shabbos because hes a frumie so whats the point of flirting oops I mean wishing him a good Shabbos.

    #892698

    Toi
    Participant

    just saying- im sad the mods derailed my derailing of the cholov stam thread.

    #892699

    MorahRach
    Member

    Where does it say that it’s assur? I would assume its accepted on so

    E places and not in others. Where I grew up if you didn’t wish a passerbyer good shabbos you were extremely rude, but I’m sure on the streets of bp and Lakewood the opposite is true. I would think though that if a woman was walking and said good shabbos, and you put your head down and kept walking that that would do more damage to the image of frumkeit you are trying to display than not.

    #892700

    ✡onegoal™
    Participant

    wolf- Hahaha! Love it!

    yitayningwut- Lol! I was thinking the exact same thing!

    WIY- Who said anything about the guy being single? Nobody said anything about single girls either, but it was implied by the use of the term “girls”.

    #892701

    Naftush
    Member

    WIY, if you’re going to turn a simple “good shabbos” into krum pritzus, minhag shtus, and flirting, please do us the favor of citing a source for it. To my knowledge, “Who says its [sic] permitted” isn’t a posek.

    #892702

    Sam2
    Participant

    WIY: I don’t want to get into this again. Let’s just say that in some communities (mostly out-of-town) it is impossible for the men and women not to interact, at least on a minimal level. Thus, not saying “Good Shabbos” would be a tremendous insult and a violation of being Makdim Shalom to someone else. In other places, it would be Assur to wish a “Good Shabbos”.

    I once heard a very good explanation for “Al Tarbeh Sichah” by a very Chareidi Rosh Kollel who had just spent a week visiting relatives in a small community. He says the Lashon is “Al Tarbeh”. So first, you have to be normal. You have to talk as much as is normally accepted wherever you are (which, he said, should never be more than “Hello”, “how are you doing”, “how are the kids”, etc. in a Frum place). And after you have reached the normal level of passing conversation, “Al Tirbeh” (and then he went on a long discussion of whether “Al Tirbeh” means Kipshuto or whether it means nothing at all and connected it to the Machlokes Rishonim about what M’ma’atim B’simcha during the nine days means.)

    #892703

    WIY
    Member

    Naftush

    Very simple. The single girls and guys often use the good shabbos as a way to casually flirt. A few years back I was in such a place where gut shabbos is exchnnged betwenn both genders and it was abundantly clear to me that some girls were flirting with their enthusiastic good shabbos and with their coy smiles. As for the guys they were only too happy to say good shabbos to attractive dressed up girls. I would say as a rule that singles should not be saying good shabbos to each other as it can be flirtatious and gives an opening to start a conversation which im sure happens often.

    Now for married people I think theres less of a problem but any time the good Shabbos is not 100% lishma as just a greeting its a problem.

    #892704

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Don’t say anything; just give Rolos please. thanks

    #892705

    TheGoq
    Participant

    “Now for married people I think theres less of a problem”

    Ok here we go with that old canard that single men have more taivos than married men that is just plain silly.

    #892706

    tahini
    Member

    I am confused, I thought there was a shidduch crisis, young people on the street in full view of the community should not politely greet each other with a ” Good Shabbos”? In Mea Shearim, or Gateshead probably not, but most other places why not?

    There are so many young and not so young singles out there who should be helped to interact, I am not talking secret rendevous, simple hellos and shabbat greetings, it really does not hurt. And yes I asked a couple of my LOR, shock horror they agreed. Perhaps I live in a liberal part of the UK.

    #892707

    Naftush
    Member

    WIY, your outrage defies common sense. Please show me a requirement in halacha, or in plain logic, to police, segregate, and intimidate young people to the extent of forbidding the exchange of the words “gut Shabbos.” Your idea that these words have to pass a “100% lishma” test is an astonishing hiddush, as is your judgment that these strangers failed the test (“it’s abundantly clear”). That’s as invalid as your earlier “reasoning,” “Who says its [sic] permitted.” The people you’re slandering are on our side. Don’t turn your verbal stun guns on them.

    #892708

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I am confused, I thought there was a shidduch crisis, young people on the street in full view of the community should not politely greet each other with a ” Good Shabbos”? In Mea Shearim, or Gateshead probably not, but most other places why not?

    It may lead to mixed dancing.

    Or worse, cutting out Yenta the Matchmaker. How could we be so cruel to destroy the parnassh of a fellow yid?

    #892709

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Is there a minhag in Brooklyn that when you say Good Shabbos to someone you don’t know, they’re supposed to ignore you? Whenever I visit there for Shabbos, it seems that is the minhag.

    If someone ignores me, I’ll just usually say loudly as they pass by, “That’s ok, you can ignore me if you want!”

    #892710

    oomis
    Participant

    The Shabbos that wishing ANYONE a Good Shabbos is considered pritzus, is the day I consider the person who considers it thus, to be a little overboard. No one has to engage in conversation with people they don’t know, or people of the opposite gender,if they are uncomfortable or believe it to be untzniusdig. But, wishing someone, anyone, GS is simply that, wishing a GS. Anyone who does not respond to that GS wish, is a boor.

    #892711

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    A few years back I was in such a place where gut shabbos is exchnnged betwenn both genders and it was abundantly clear to me that some girls were flirting with their enthusiastic good shabbos and with their coy smiles. As for the guys they were only too happy to say good shabbos to attractive dressed up girls.

    I’m so glad you brought this to my attention. It just so happened that, as I left lunch today (at Bravo Pizza, in Manhattan), a frum woman approached me and asked me where 36th Street was. Having seen your advice before lunch, I was prepared for this flirtatious assault (there’s no way for me to know if she 100% lishma in wanting to know where 36th Street is) and promptly and wisely ignored her and walked away without saying a word.

    The Wolf

    (No, not really. I actually had the shameless gall to actually tell her where 36th Street was.)

    #892712

    Sam2
    Participant

    Naftush: Actually, he’s sort of right. The Rama in this Siman does say “Hakol L’sheim Shamayim”.

    #892713

    wanderingchana
    Participant

    How old is the “girl”? 5? 11? 35 and not married?

    I used to get upset when grown men would ignore my outgoing little boy when he’d say “Good Shabbos”. Saying loudly “say it again, he didn’t hear you” usually wakes the older one from his Torahdig stupor. And yes, we can tell the ones from Brooklyn.

    #892714

    yaakov doe
    Participant

    OK, so now I’ll stop saying “good Shabbos” to my neighbor’s 12 year old daughter.

    #892715

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Lol OneOfMany exactly

    #892716

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Feif,

    I have been in Brooklyn for Shabbos a time or two and I have not experienced what you claim to have experienced. Perhaps it is an aura that you exude.

    If you exude negativism and mumble under your breath people will be less inclined to wish you a good shabbos.

    I do not think you can prove otherwise.

    #892717

    Anom123456789
    Participant

    WIY: Not sure which neighbrhoods you hang out in. Definately not the klal. According to your reasoning it really depends on how people act. If people in a community say good shabbos to flirt than it’s assur, and if not then it’s muttar.

    Great Story- I know a nice middle aged Orthodox man, who wished good shabbos to another Orthodox man while crossing paths in the street. When the other man did not respond the nice man repeated good shabos. When the other man didn’t respond, the nice man said “excuse me for assuming that you”re Jewish.”

    #892718

    20goingon724
    Participant

    Check in the kitzer shulchan aruch were he speaks about winking to girls.

    I think over there he also addresses addressing women.

    In which he says a man can’t ask a women “how are you doing”.

    #892719

    frummy in the tummy
    Participant

    tahini – well said. As a single guy I can say I’m at that point of being completely fed up with the shidduch system. I’m fed up with being put into this awkward, completely unnatural environment where you have to figure out how to have hours-long conversations with a complete stranger because Mrs. Weinstein thought it was a good idea. I’m fed up with being part of a system in which girls are these delicate, elusive creatures with whom you aren’t supposed to learn how to converse with until 20 or 25 years into life when you are thrust into above-mentioned awkward hours-long conversations. I’m fed up with a system in which a completely natural, healthy attraction to the opposite gender is viewed as wrong and even evil. But go ahead, don’t say good shabbos to people. (Rant over)

    #892720

    20goingon724
    Participant

    OK check per.(ch) 152 siff 9

    So it would come out it depends on your intentions. If as WIY puts it as flirting then it is assur but if your only intention is for him/her to be mikiem zachor… then i guess it would be muter but maybe not so tzanua.

    #892721

    YaakovDovid
    Member

    Oy vey that we should have sha’alos like these!

    This sha’alah will only make sense if everybody else says Gut Shabbos. Unfortunately, in some places – especially Brooklyn – if I dare try to say Gut Shabbos to anybody – usually 2 things will happen – either he or she will walk right by ignoring you or stare at you as if you came from outer=space. When people start saying Gut Shabbos one to another then we could worry about this partcular Sha’lah. By the way, Shabbos is in a few days – so to everyone – Have a Gut Shabbos!

    #892722

    Toi
    Participant

    and they think youre a boor for wishing it to them. see how this goes in a circle?

    #892723

    RabbiRabin
    Member

    ???? ????? ??-???? ?? ??? ??

    #892724

    RabbiRabin
    Member

    the story goes like this. She used to say hello to everyone walking by. A certain Egyptian who she would say hello to liked her. He impregnated her and beat her husband with Moshe Rabbeinu watching and Moshe killed the Egyptian. Later her son blasphemed G-d in front of klal Yisroel. So it is possible that it is not assur. but the torah is certainly “suggesting” otherwise

    #892725

    RebRY
    Member

    Why should a frum girl expect a frum guy to say “gut Shabbos” to her unless they are the type of very modern people who are not Shomer Negia and other mitzvos bewtween men and women and even such a person probably would not expect a “gut shabbos” from a Yeshivish guy with a black hat or a Chusid with a shtreimel and vaser zaken. Also in Brooklyn men usually don’t exchange gut shabbos unless they know each other.

    #892726

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Why should a frum girl expect a frum guy to say “gut Shabbos” to her unless they are the type of very modern people who are not Shomer Negia

    What does that have to do with basic menchlichkeit?

    Also in Brooklyn men usually don’t exchange gut shabbos unless they know each other.

    Then I guess I don’t live in Brooklyn, since I say “Good Shabbos” to men I don’t know. How is it that you know where I live better than I do?

    The Wolf

    #892727

    SL1
    Member

    I don’t think there is anything wrong with a simple “good shabbos”.

    #892728

    oomis
    Participant

    Also in Brooklyn men usually don’t exchange gut shabbos unless they know each other.”

    How sad is that??????

    #892729

    oomis
    Participant

    and they think youre a boor for wishing it to them. see how this goes in a circle? “

    Since when do I care what a boor thinks of me? Hevei makdim KOL ODOM b’sholom. And let him learn a little something about good manners and common menschlechkeit while he’s at it.

    #892730

    WIY
    Member

    oomis1105

    Also in Brooklyn men usually don’t exchange gut shabbos unless they know each other.”

    How sad is that??????

    Actually not sad at all just practical. If on the way home from Shul you can expect to meet 50 or more people (if your walk is a few blocks in Brooklyn. It is just not practical to say good Shabbos to everyone especially if you are walking with people and carrying on a conversation.

    “Hevei makdim KOL ODOM b’sholom.”

    This is only to someone who you should be speaking to.

    #892731

    oomis
    Participant

    WIY, with all due respect, I say good Shabbos to everyone I see. If I were to see 50 people, I would say GS 50 times. There is no reason not to say GS to someone. It is not flirting, it is not improper, and if people think it is pritzus, in my humble opinion they have no idea what pritzus (immorality) means.

    And btw, please name the accepted source that asserts that “hevei makdim” refers only to someone to whom you should be speaking. I am curious to know this.

    #892732

    Sam2
    Participant

    WIY: It is kind of sad. Why can’t you just say Good Shabbos as you walk by? You don’t need a whole conversation. Just two words from each person. I feel like that’s what happens everywhere I see.

    #892733

    mw13
    Participant

    Naftush:

    “Please show me a requirement in halacha, or in plain logic, to police, segregate, and intimidate young people to the extent of forbidding the exchange of the words “gut Shabbos.””

    With pleasure. Shulchan Oruch, Even Ha’ezer, siman chuf aleph, sif katan alef: “Tzurich adam lisrachaik mei’hanushim moed moed, a man must distance himself from women very, very much.” Sif katan vav: “Ain shoelin bi’ shalom eisha klal”, which, simply read, means “do not greet a woman at all”.

    Sam2 & oomis1105:

    “Hevei makdim shalom li’kol adam” could easily be translated as “greet every man”, not “every person”. (The Mishna is obviously addressed only to men; however, one would imagine that the same would apply to a woman greeting a woman.)

    #892734

    mommamia22
    Participant

    How about nodding your head to the people you pass if you’re in the midst of a conversation? At least you’re acknowledging them.

    I think, generally, women should greet women, men, men. However, it’s common courtesy to acknowledge another when greeted, and I think it’s just plain rude to lower ones head and pretend to be deaf just because someone has different standards and greeted you. An effusive “how do you do?!” is not necessary, but a quick “good Shabbos” so as not to be rude? Common courtesy. It’s derech eretz to be a mensch to others. If you respond “good Shabbos” loud enough for the greeter to hear as you continue walking away, it’s pretty clear t’s meant just as a response.

    #892735

    Curiosity
    Participant

    If somebody tells you good Shabbos you must answer them with a good shabbos.

    #892736

    Naftush
    Member

    Sam2, I risk looking like a fool for not having the Rema in front of me, but does he really suggest that by saying GS to someone of the opposite gender I invite strangers to impugn my shem shayamim and convict me of all sorts of aveirot?

    RebRY, you’ve done just that in a big way. If I sorted out your dangling pronouns correctly, my saying GS is a solicitation and those who say GS back have accepted it. So if I as a male say GS to another male, is it a solicitation to to’eva?

    #892737

    greatest
    Member

    Thank You mw13 for providing the maare mekomos that it is halachicly assur for a man to greet a woman.

    #892738

    greatest
    Member

    And I agree it is virtually impossible in a large Jeiwhs city/neighborhood to say good shabbos to everyone, unless you want to be a broken record and repeat “good shabbos” 50 times as you walk to (and then again, from) shul or on a walk; and be rude to your walking mate who you can’t converse for a minute with, without constantly interrupting your conversation to greet someone else.

    #892740

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    There is a letter from the Rambam in which tells his student to wish his wife well for him. He goes on to explain that greeting normally is not included in that which Chazal said that it is a lack of tznius to inquire about a woman’s welfare.

    Furthermore, see the Aruch HaShulchan on that siman who cites a Ritva and says that these Halachos change with the times, and where people are used to it there is no issur.

    oomis – +1

    #892741

    Naftush
    Member

    mw13, you said, “‘Ain shoelin bi’ shalom eisha klal,’ which, simply read, means “do not greet a woman at all.” No, it doesn’t. It means “Don’t inquire after a woman’s health” or, as Yitayningwut says, “welfare.” Wishing someone a GS while passing in the street has nothing to do with it.

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