October 25, 2011 1:48 am at 1:48 am #600147
ok, guys. I really need your help. I just became aware of someone I know (not frum) who is dating a non-jewish woman. He lied to his relatives about his dating status, claiming she’s just a friend.
When I found out about this, I confronted his family and urged them to do their utmost to persuade him to end it. They basically threw their hands up and said “he’ll do whatever he wants to do”. I am so horrified that no one is doing anything, and am wondering what I can do?
I was thinking of researching birthright trips to Israel for him, in the hopes that, maybe, if he were to be surrounded by other yidden in Eretz Yisrael, he might reconsider his dating choices.
Do any of you have any ideas or suggestions? He’s in his early-mid twenties.October 25, 2011 2:05 am at 2:05 am #821612kapustaParticipant
I think aish has a section on intermarriage and maybe even a downloadable book available. Maybe thats something to look into?
Hatzlacha!October 25, 2011 2:07 am at 2:07 am #821613irMember
Yasher Koach for trying to help this boy. More information is needed.
Is his family frum? Are there any frum family members? Is there anyone with solid hashkafas that he would listen to? What you need here is a person with firm understanding of why this is wrong who is also known by the boy to genuinely care about him. This is a person that may be able to get through to him.
How far along in the relationship is he?October 25, 2011 2:09 am at 2:09 am #821614HLMMember
I don’t know!! Just daven, that helps!!!!!!October 25, 2011 2:30 am at 2:30 am #821615
I can’t be sure how serious he is (because he won’t share information with his family), but my impression is that they were probably dating “casually” for a few months. He has a few relatives who keep some mitzvos, but only one who is basically orthodox whom he respects and has a relationship with. I have a similar impression from this relative that he thinks it’s fruitless to get involved. I just can’t see doing nothing.October 25, 2011 3:32 am at 3:32 am #821616
mommamia22 -It really depends on whether he is a candidate to being Mekarev and becoming a BT. If he isn’t, there’s no hope.
My non-frum relatives would never marry Goyim. Why? Because it was instilled in them that that is a point of no return. Yet many in America do? Because their parents think there isn’t anything wrong and some even glorify it -it’s Chosuv for a Jew boy to get the Shiksa!October 25, 2011 10:58 am at 10:58 am #821617irMember
Then you can daven, Hashem is the One who can turn hearts back to Him. Hatzlocha vebrocha.October 25, 2011 11:38 am at 11:38 am #821618
Does anyone know anything about priority 1?
Which organizations are for FFB’s who went off the derech vs. those for kids who were never frum who are in danger of going further and being lost?
I think I need an agency that’s used to dealing with kids in anger of intermarriage to discuss with someone knowledgeable how to help him.October 25, 2011 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #821619LSHMember
Another strategy: Don’t tell him that you are trying to get him to break up with the girlfriend. Do tell him that you need his help to help you with a project and that you are willing to pay him for it. The project is of course going to take place at some kiruv place where there will be an understanding Rabbi waiting nearby to just by happenstance speak with him in general about various things. Once he’s buddies with the Rabbi then your problem is basically over. I would suggest being in touch with someone like Rabbi Wallerstein to arrange this. He has loads of experience in this area and if he can’t help then he’ll lead you to someone who can.October 25, 2011 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #821620yungerman1Participant
mommamia22- Priority 1, Our Place and the like are for kids who are/were frum and are falling/have fallen off the derech. Kiruv organizations are for people who are not (yet) frum. Both types of organizations should know how to respond to someone that is in danger of intermarriage.October 25, 2011 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #821621bptParticipant
Explain to him, that, unlike most averos, this one will likely produce a result that will never go away (meaning a child), one that will not be easily accepted (if ever) in either community.
His actions may seem harmless from his perspective, but in the long run, a mixed marraige will ususally collapse, and leave the wreckage for him to live with.October 25, 2011 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #821623Dr. SeussMember
Areivim Zeh L’Zeh is very much a reason to make an all-out effort to try to stop it.October 25, 2011 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #821624A Heimishe MomParticipant
clever: I think you have it.
They raised him like this, what can they expect? Irreligious folks don’t realize that the “one thing they hold dear” will be as meaningless as the rest of it to the next generation. I would say tefilla is your only option. If he is close to the one orthodox relative, he is the only one who can try to pull something off. You really can’t “trick” these people into religion. They think they know it all and just don’t want to hear anything.
That said, there are, of course, many “success” stories out there. Tefilla, and the right contacts are the way to go.October 25, 2011 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #821625
cleverjewishpun -“Since this person was raised in a non religious enviroment where Judaisim was not central to their lives, it becomes something that can be discarded when necessary. Its that attitude that needs to be defeated at the childhood stage, not when you are dealing with someone who is a fully grown adult.”
I think you hit the nail on the head why my ex had such an easy time going OTD.October 25, 2011 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #821626BTGuyParticipant
I hope everything works out for the best. This is a tough situation. The fact he is not frum is going to make it difficult to put some teeth into everyone’s suggestion since he and his girlfriend see no barriers prohibiting them as they lead the same secular lifestyle with the same habits.
Ironically, it will be the non-Jewish partner who will have a problem with things, in time, and who will help to teach him a lesson.
Jewish education is imperative. A classic case of an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure.October 26, 2011 1:00 am at 1:00 am #821627
Your post confuses me, as based on that idea, anyone who grew up not frum is basically in danger of going back on their commitment.October 26, 2011 1:22 am at 1:22 am #821628
Do not listen to Health. It depends on why a person became frum. If it is due to growth in Emuna and Yiras Shamaim, Health’s allegation does not apply. On the other hand, if someone became a BT because he/she thought it is a lot of fun to be frum etc., then — it might be a concern.October 26, 2011 1:55 am at 1:55 am #821629minyan galMember
Mommania, from what you have written, it seems to me that getting him interested in a Birthright trip may be the best thing to do. However, there is an age limit – I think the cutoff age is 26, but I may be wrong. Although the trip itself is not very long, many young people elect to stay on in Israel for at least another month. Of course those that stay have generally travelled with at least one friend. I don’t know if the Birthright/Taglit office will assist in matching you with a room mate for an extended visit. If he has been seeing this young lady for quite some time, a trip of just a couple of weeks would probably not break up the relationship. Do you know if his family has any plans to talk to him about this situation or to ask him if the girl involved might be prone to converting to Judaism? It is a difficult situation and I commend you for taking an interest.October 26, 2011 2:33 am at 2:33 am #821630kapustaParticipant
many young people elect to stay on in Israel for at least another month.
IIRC, one of the people on this past years Project Inspire video said when he wanted to go visit Israel for the first time, he told his boss who answered that “the streets in Israel are paved with glue”.October 26, 2011 3:20 am at 3:20 am #821631
mommamia22 -“Your post confuses me, as based on that idea, anyone who grew up not frum is basically in danger of going back on their commitment.”
Unfortunately, this is true. It happens more than you would think. And it sometimes happens to their kids also.October 26, 2011 3:24 am at 3:24 am #821632
mdd -“On the other hand, if someone became a BT because he/she thought it is a lot of fun to be frum etc., then — it might be a concern.”
Your post is astounding -who becomes Frum because they think it’s fun???
They all say they are doing it L’shem Shomayim, but some have alterior motives!October 26, 2011 3:58 am at 3:58 am #821633
Health, here you go with your outrageous statements again. We once gave you over the head for this.
And what about the kids? They were brought up frum!It might be that their sicere BT parents sometimes pressure them more then today’s children could accept.October 26, 2011 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #821634
mdd -“Health, here you go with your outrageous statements again. We once gave you over the head for this.”
Oh and it’s not outrageous to say “became a BT because he/she thought it is a lot of fun to be frum”? Yup, most BT’s think Frumkeit is a lot of fun!
“And what about the kids? They were brought up frum!It might be that their sicere BT parents sometimes pressure them more then today’s children could accept.”
Exactly, they didn’t have themselves the proper Chinuch, so they don’t know how to raise children. Yes, pressuring kids too much can push them off the deep end!October 26, 2011 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #821635
Health How about some eiyn tovah?? Those BTs who are strict with their children are trying to do the right thing and, be’etzem, they are right. It just the dor is not fit for it. They should not be looked down on.
According to you, there should not be any kiruv.October 26, 2011 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #821636YW Moderator-80Member
lets not make this personal please
(referring to certain edits not seen here)October 26, 2011 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #821637
mdd -“be’etzem, they are right. It just the dor is not fit for it. They should not be looked down on.”
So since the kids can’t handle it -they aren’t right.
“According to you, there should not be any kiruv.”
I didn’t say that, but I believe the movement should definitely be more selective than it is now!October 26, 2011 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #821638mchemtobMember
Call Rav Kalman Packouz hes the go to guy on preventing intermmariage/dating. He has a unique approach and is considered an expert on the subject. He works with Aish Hatorah if you want to check him out look him up on their website. this is his email. [email protected] HatzlachaOctober 26, 2011 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #821639apushatayidParticipant
I just received this weeks Partners in torah “Mentor Talk”. The subject of the email is “Should I try to stop this intermarriage?”
I dont feel comfortable posting the information without their permission, but, may I suggest calling 800-STUDY-4-2 and asking them to email it (this weeks Mentor Talk) to you.October 26, 2011 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #821640
Health, there is no exclusive “frum club”. It is absolutely our obligation to have as many Jews keeping as many mitsvos as possible. Find me a Rov who would say otherwise.October 27, 2011 1:27 am at 1:27 am #821641
Thank you all for your suggestions. I’m going to try to follow up on these leads, IY’H.October 27, 2011 3:49 am at 3:49 am #821642
mdd -“It is absolutely our obligation to have as many Jews keeping as many mitsvos as possible.”
On condition that they are Ehrlich and don’t create more problems for the rest of the Klal!October 27, 2011 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #821643
Without conditions, Health. Even if there is a frei Yid, whom you can not make totaly frum, but you can convince him to fast on Yom Kippur and not eat chomets on Pesach, you have to do it. Mitsvos are a chiyuv for anybody born a Jew. Find me a Rov who would agree with your opinion.
And what do you suggest we do with FFBs who are not ehrlach and create problems? Make them OTD in gantzn and expel them from the community? What you are saying is so totaly off!October 27, 2011 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #821644yichusdikParticipant
Health, I am in a very similar situation to you, though my ex is still maintaining some level of observance, and facilitates the kids doing so. But I have come to a completely different conclusion. It seems to me the factionalism and even elitism which you or I might understand, if not justify, contrasted with the open hearts and homes of those involved in kiruv, and the longer she lived in the frum world, the less she saw of the open hearts and the more of the less savory elements of frum society. It didn’t have a good hashpo’oh on her, and real problems can’t be conveniently explained away.
I believe in kol yisroel areivim ze bazeh means each and every Jew, and we cant pick and choose who we are going to “allow” to take on one, ten, or all mitzvos – because choosing to help or facilitate observance is in practical terms choosing to allow or not.October 27, 2011 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #821645
yichusdik -“Health, I am in a very similar situation to you, though my ex is still maintaining some level of observance, and facilitates the kids doing so. But I have come to a completely different conclusion. It seems to me the factionalism and even elitism which you or I might understand, if not justify, contrasted with the open hearts and homes of those involved in kiruv, and the longer she lived in the frum world, the less she saw of the open hearts and the more of the less savory elements of frum society. It didn’t have a good hashpo’oh on her, and real problems can’t be conveniently explained away.”
This part I agree with. The part you wrote after this -I don’t fully understand.October 27, 2011 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #821646
mdd -“What you are saying is so totaly off!”
Actually your comments are only based on emotions, not on any logic. You have some Negious, but I don’t know what that is, but I can guess.
“Without conditions, Health. Even if there is a frei Yid, whom you can not make totaly frum, but you can convince him to fast on Yom Kippur and not eat chomets on Pesach, you have to do it.”
No, without conditions on forcing them to keep all or none, but with the condition on the ones that they keep have to be done with Ehrlichkeit. (If you know what that word means.)
“Mitsvos are a chiyuv for anybody born a Jew. Find me a Rov who would agree with your opinion.”
True, every Jew has to keep Mitzvos, but it’s not incumbent on e/o to be Mekarev Rechokim. There are orgs. that do this and you don’t have to belong to these orgs.
“And what do you suggest we do with FFBs who are not ehrlach and create problems? Make them OTD in gantzn and expel them from the community?”
Now this statement makes absolutely no sense. If these people aren’t Ehrlich because of Rishous – then they should be dealt with. If it’s because of something else, like what happens to these “at risk youth”, then they should be helped in any way possible.October 27, 2011 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #821647yichusdikParticipant
Health, I think it is incumbent upon everyone to be mekarev rechokim. And if you don’t know how, there are people and orgs from who to learn. And if you are afraid of the hashpo’oh of the not frum on your family instead of yours on them, you are saying to your parents and to the gedolim of the last 60 years that all of the mosdos and chinuch they built up were a waste of time and money.
I think kiruv is the truest expression of veohavto loreacho komocho – and on that mitzvah there is no condition of ehrlichkeit on the part of the person you demonstrate ahavas chinom to. And I would direct you to the message of the famous story of R’ Shmuel Shmelke Horowitz M’nikolsburg (brother of my gggggg grandfather) and how he helped Hamelech Menashe – the epitome of rishus – enter Olom Haboh. Our responsibility to love and engage and foster the observance of even one mitzvah is constant and unending.October 27, 2011 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #821648
yichusdik -“Health, I think it is incumbent upon everyone to be mekarev rechokim. I think kiruv is the truest expression of veohavto loreacho komocho”
I’m sorry you are mistaken, there isn’t any chiyuv, mitzvah yea -no Chiyuv!October 27, 2011 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #821649sheinMember
Areivim Zeh L’Zeh is not a chiyuv?October 27, 2011 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #821650
Health, again: there is no difference in your obligation to help a stumbling Yid from a frum family and a stymbling Yid from a frei family. If anything, the stumbling FFB is worse. He should have known better.
Like I said:” FIND ME A ROV WHO WOULD AGREE WITH YOU!
editedOctober 27, 2011 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #821651
shein -“Areivim Zeh L’Zeh is not a chiyuv?”
Sorry to inform you -this is only for s/o who is Bechlal Amisecha!October 27, 2011 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #821652
mdd -“Health, again: there is no difference in your obligation to help a stumbling Yid from a frum family and a stymbling Yid from a frei family.”
Your wrong – there is a difference. See my post to shein.
“If anything, the stumbling FFB is worse. He should have known better.”
He is only worse like I said in my post to you before -if he is doing it because of Rishous. Most people going OTD aren’t doing it because of Rishous.
“Like I said:” FIND ME A ROV WHO WOULD AGREE WITH YOU!”
Find me a Rov who would disagree with me!!!October 27, 2011 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #821653
If a fellow is a tinok snenisba he’is beklal amisecha. From everything I learnt or heard Gedolim and Rabbonim speak and pasken — they hold like me.
Plus, I did not get it, so you support driving off the derech and out of town FFBs, who are reshoim?October 27, 2011 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #821654
So if a guy is generally speaking frum, but is dishonest in business or looks at funny pictures, he should be driven off the derech in gantzen??
editedOctober 27, 2011 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #821655
Plus, if an FFB goes past a certain point, even if he is not doing it out of what you think is rishus, but because of problems(which al pi Haloch is still rishus), he is no longer beklal amisecha.October 28, 2011 6:10 am at 6:10 am #821656
mdd -“If a fellow is a tinok snenisba he’is beklal amisecha. From everything I learnt or heard Gedolim and Rabbonim speak and pasken — they hold like me.”
That’s what you say. They aren’t Bechlal Amisecha, no matter how much you scream that they are.October 28, 2011 6:18 am at 6:18 am #821657
mdd -“So if a guy is generally speaking frum, but is dishonest in business or looks at funny pictures, he should be driven off the derech in gantzen??”
“Plus, if an FFB goes past a certain point, even if he is not doing it out of what you think is rishus, but because of problems(which al pi Haloch is still rishus), he is no longer beklal amisecha.”
Look you are making me repeat myself a thousand times. I don’t have the time for you and getting you out of the mixed up world you are in.
If a Frum person does Aveiros because of Rishous over and over again -then yes he takes himself out of the Parsha of Amishecha.
Most Frum people who do Aveiros aren’t like this, in spite of what you claim!
A good Sefer to start with is the Chofetz Chaim -he talks about this.October 28, 2011 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #821658
Health, you are in a mixed-up and lacking in ahavas Yisroel world. You did not give straight answers to my questions. Your accusations about BTs are false. According to Halocha, if a feloow does aveiros because his Rebbe was mean to him, even though there is a tzad ze’chus, he is still considered a rasha. If a fellow is a tinok sne’nishba, he is bechlal Amisacha. Even if someone is not a tinok she’nishba, you seem to cut much more slack for BBF-reshaim. Why is that?
Plus, according to what you want, how things should go? If a Yid wants to become frum ,he should submit his application along with 10 letters of reccomendation to some commitee. The comitee will decide whether to allow him in or tell him to stay frei.
I understand you had problems with your wife.Do not let that cloud your judgement.
Speak to a Rov about your shittos. I doubt if I should respond to your twisted shittos anymore. We have written enough for anybody to see. The fallacy of your views and the lack of Ahavas Yisroel, that is. BTW, Chofets Chaim has a sefer under that name too.October 28, 2011 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #821659
Health, le’gabi all Halochos , a tinok she’nishba is regular Yid.October 28, 2011 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #821660
How did my asking for help and guidance become a Jew bashing opportunity? This has the guise of being a religious/philosophical debate, but has turned into something else. Is this what was meant by lots of learning but Sinas chinam underneath it all that destroyed the bais hamikdash?
I didn’t ask if you thought this man, this person, this human being with the same Tzelem Elokim mimaal was worth spending the time on. Every yid, frum or not frum, is. Whether I can be successful or have the tools or ability is another issue. C’v, if someone you loved went off the derech, or was drifting further, would you not want any help you could get? And if you were too ignorant to know that he needed help would you not want someone with greater vision than you to help?? I didn’t ask if I should help, I asked how I could help. Derech eretz kadma letorah.
- The topic ‘scary "off the derech" – need help’ is closed to new replies.