May 8, 2009 2:34 am at 2:34 am #645288
lkwdfellow- ever situation is different.
about you smoking, you could be lying…
thanks mods for the fast updating!May 8, 2009 2:35 am at 2:35 am #645289
kapusta: thanks 🙂 but i’m not very confident posting here because i don’t have much personal experience with what’s being discussed.
for anyone reading after, all i said was “or make it come up”.
ames: i’m totally hearing your point here.May 8, 2009 2:35 am at 2:35 am #645290
lkwdfellow: i know of an engagement that yes, was broken cause he hide that he smokes! how can a marriage start, when he’s lying from day #!?!!???May 8, 2009 2:37 am at 2:37 am #645291May 8, 2009 2:44 am at 2:44 am #645292
ames: HELLO! You’re not breaking it over smoking! You’re breaking it over deception and manipulation!
very well said, perfect!
how can a marriage start, when he’s lying from day # 1 !?May 8, 2009 2:44 am at 2:44 am #645293May 8, 2009 2:46 am at 2:46 am #645295
Read my post above I answered your question exactly!
One of my friend’s parents had this issue when they got married.My friend’s father use to smoke her mother told him that it’s either me or the ciggarets!He choose my friend’s mother!
I will not date a guy that smokes! If he smoked once or twice in his life but promises to never try a ciggaret again then I will be willing to go out with him!
I know everyone says that guys who are heavy smokers get shidduchim-no they don’t-not unless their friends cover up and lie for them!
Basicly if you wanna get married don’t smoke!You will save yourself a lot of unnecessary trouble!May 8, 2009 2:53 am at 2:53 am #645296
ames: HELLO! You’re not breaking it over smoking! You’re breaking it over deception and manipulation!
very well said, perfect!
how can a marriage start, when he’s lying from day # 1 !?!!???
Well guys how about benchwarmers-boys who lie they say that they are learning when they are not!
Now a lot of people lie about that!
Let me tell you something that it is one of the most disheartining things in shidduchim!It creates one of the biggest Chilulie Hashem!
If you know of a boy who is not really learing(pretending) you need to ask a sheila how to answer this question with regard to shidduchim, Don’t give the answer in which we can all read through “He is a real bal kishron”!A person may have the talent for something but may not actually doing it!
A person may know how to learn- very well in fact-but that dosen’t mean that he is!May 8, 2009 2:54 am at 2:54 am #645297
kapusta: you didn’t get it.
the point is he was hiding it. something big like this SHOULD come up (especially if it’s important to the other person), so either he lied or purposely avoided the subject to avoid lying.May 8, 2009 3:17 am at 3:17 am #645298May 8, 2009 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #645300
ames, did he outright say he doesnt smoke?
kapusta: didn’t sound like you did.May 8, 2009 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #645301
I agree with ames on condition that the boy intentionally lied. That’s a major issue.
The following really happened: A yeshivish girl hears great things about a boy and they agree to a date. Boy walks in and low and behold, he’s wearing a grey suit. To this girl, a grey suit is an unacceptable thing. She couldn’t believe something this basic didn’t come out during her research. Why not? Because she didn’t even dream of asking.
Keep in mind that this girl abhors smoking more than oomis, ames & BY2 put together!
It has happened and it can happen again.
PS- I am not pro smoking at allMay 8, 2009 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #645302
“just kidding- you don’t have to have me as a son-in-law (or should i say grandson-in-law?) if you don’t want to 😉 “
My daughters are too old for you, and mt granddaughter (11 months, kinehora) is way too young (and she has a boyfriend already anyway, the boy next door). But you are an intelligent, funny, and great guy, and someday when you are ready, you will a very lucky lady’s son-in-law.
Now, as to the point made by someone about whether or not to break off an engagement because you suddenly discover he IS a smoker… well, this would probably not be able to happen if in the Yeshivah world people dated in a normal fashion. If the boy and girl spent real time (quantity as well as quality) with each other on a VERY frequent basis, it would be obvious. Someone who is a smoker cannot keep from smoking for long periods of time with any regularity. The addiction and urge to smoke is so strong, they get antsy. Even if he excused himself to the bathroom to smoke, she would smell it on his clothing, hair, and breath. If a date lasted for many hours, there would be a sign that he had smoked at some point. And yes, the shidduch deserves to be broken, because I would forever wonder what else did he lie about by omission or commission? if you cannot trust your spouse, there is no basis for a marriage.I do not beleive in promises, because if the boy knew the girl is opposed to this habit, then he should have been kicking it as soon as he realized he wanted to see her a second time. Even if he did not get engaged to her, at least he might be on the road to getting away from the smoking permanently.May 8, 2009 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #645303
ames, I know someone who was dating for a while (more than 6 weeks) and toward the end (they did not get engaged) it came out that the girl was on medication for something presented as a very minor issue. I think that too is not fair, why should it take so long? Dont most rabbanim say if there is a serious medical problem, it should be told after the third date (or so)?
*kapusta*May 8, 2009 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #645304
Forgive all my typos. My brain is going faster than my fingers.May 8, 2009 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #645305May 10, 2009 5:14 am at 5:14 am #645306
squeak, I used to be a PROOFREADER and an editor. A shanda and a cherpah.May 10, 2009 5:45 am at 5:45 am #645307
Just wondering if you could clarify- Moish has clearly written that he smokes, and you assert that one day he will be a very lucky lady’s son-in-law. Reading of your very strong feelings towards marrying someone who smokes, I am curious about the incongruity here. Are you assuming Moish will have given up smoking by then due to reading your compelling and strong positions on this thread? Or are there exceptions, such as when a young man is intelligent and funny, the smoking isn’t such a deterrent after all?May 10, 2009 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #645308
“Just wondering if you could clarify- Moish has clearly written that he smokes, and you assert that one day he will be a very lucky lady’s son-in-law. Reading of your very strong feelings towards marrying someone who smokes, I am curious about the incongruity here. Are you assuming Moish will have given up smoking by then due to reading your compelling and strong positions on this thread? Or are there exceptions, such as when a young man is intelligent and funny, the smoking isn’t such a deterrent after all? “
If you recall, Moish was making the (wink, wink) comment that he couldn’t be my son-in-law or grandson-in-law. My response to that, ebcause I think Moish is a terrific young man from what I have read, in terms of his intelligence, humor, etc. is that though he would not be MY s-i-l, he will someday be someone else’s, and they will be fortunate, because he’s got a lot going for him. If he gives up the smoking, even more so! I stand by my own assertion that for my family,smokers are a major turn off in the shidduch world. It would not prevent me from feeling affection for such a person, but I would never want to meshadeich the mothers of my future grandchildren with them, either. The fact that they continue to smoke in the face of EVERYTHING bad that we know about the effects of smoking on the individual, the family, and the environment, suggests to me a person who is not appropriate for our particular family, though they may be great guys.
And yeah, I REALLY hope Moish gives up smoking. I want him to live a long and healthy, happy life.May 10, 2009 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #645309
I guess I understand, though I had a hard time parsing your thoughts from your message. You like Moish, though he wouldn’t be appropriate for your family due to his smoking, regardless of age.May 10, 2009 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #645310
oomis1105 – you write – If the boy and girl spent real time (quantity as well as quality) with each other on a VERY frequent basis, it would be obvious.
I’m just curious. You seem to have a problem with our Yeshiva-style dating. Do you think that the more modern orthodox style of dating is better? Are their marriages better?May 10, 2009 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #645311
i know someone that when they were going out- it was a very important issue to the girl if the boy smokes or not- so on her 2nd date she asked him straight out if he does- and he answered on and off- after they got engaged she found out that hes a regular smoker- he meant on ten minutes, off ten minutes- is that lying????? no its just changing the truth a bit. and i know them- they r the cutest couple around!!!happiest- its crazy to break a potential shidduch bec he smokes!!May 11, 2009 1:34 am at 1:34 am #645312
I’m just curious. You seem to have a problem with our Yeshiva-style dating. Do you think that the more modern orthodox style of dating is better? Are their marriages better?
Yes, I do, and in my experience, yes,they are. And truthfully, my style of dating was a little over thirty years ago, so it was the style of the times FOR THE FRUM WORLD, if not the Yeshivish world. We met guys either on our own (as I did when my husband walked into the Jewish publishing house for which I worked), or people who actually knew us well, i.e. family or friends of family set us up on blind dates. There was none of the nonsense of “resumes” and “references” (what is this anyway – a job interview???), and checking ad nauseum before the boy’s side agreed. People thought of someone for a shidduch contacted the person they thought about and set it up by giving the boy the girl’s number. The boy, who presumably was sufficiently intelligent and mature to dial a phone number all by himself, actually (HORRORS!!!!!) called the girl ASAP to speak to her for a bit and then ask her out at the end of the conversation. If he liked her well enough to ask her out again, he did not go through the shadchan, he acted like an adult and called the girl back. She presumably was mature enough to either accept or decline.
What we have done in our infinite wisdom, is to go back to the dark ages of shtetl shidduchim, where we sometimes put the wrong emphasis (IMO) on what is truly important, and infantilize our children by treating them on the one hand as if they are old enough to get married, but on the other hand not old enough or smart enough to figure out for themselves how to arrange a date.
Marriages are only as good as the amount of effort the two people involved are willing to put forth into it. I have seen “modern” people’s marriages fail, but in recent months I have been devastated to see several Yeshivish couples’ marriages break up after only a very short amount of time (in one case only a few weeks). Sadly, one of the wives was expecting and gave birth after she received her GET. If you think these are isolated instances, tragically they are not. More and more young people are starting to feel cheated when they marry in haste and under pressure, and realize that they should have spent more time getting to know their partner before committing to a future with him or her. they are also learning that being a “best boy” in the Beis Medrash (and they cannot ALL be the best), does not guarantee that a young man will be a good husband and father.
To be honest, I don’t care if the Yeshivishe world wants to continue its mode of making shidduchim. It works for some, so go for it. But the method that I used, worked really well for me, ensured that at least two of my five children (sheyichyu) met their zivugim in a wholesome and non-pressured way, and no one pushed them to get engaged or married before they were ready. They also got to know each other really well, and did not look at the number of dates as a criteria for whether or not they enjoyed each others’ company. I have another child who has met several of the young ladies whom he has dated, in an environment which speaks volumes as to their middos. They all volunteer in a program for developmentally disable youngsters. Although the relationships have not progressed with any of the young ladies, my son has no regrets about meeting any of them – any one of them would be a wonderful zivug, though clearly not basherte to be HIS zivug. Still, he knows that this is the type of girl he is looking for. Whether or not he finds the right girl in this particular venue, it has certainly helped to solidify what he is looking for in a future spouse.May 12, 2009 12:36 am at 12:36 am #645314
hey just so you all know, i don’t REALLY smoke. i’m addicted or anything, i just do every once in a (not so short) while. i could stop in a second if i wanted to and never look back. so i suppose if it really meant a lot to a girl and i really wanted her i would stop.
and i know it’s unhealthy- i’ll probably stop on my own before that point anyway.
that was for oomis- just so she doesn’t start davening for me 😉 don’t worry, i’ll stay far away from your family…May 12, 2009 3:26 am at 3:26 am #645315
No judgment here. You’ll stop when you’re ready.May 12, 2009 5:43 am at 5:43 am #645316
why is it if a boy smokes he is normal or chilled but if a girl smokes something is major wrong with her??May 12, 2009 5:47 am at 5:47 am #645317
GoldieLoxx: that’s just the way it goes! sorry!May 12, 2009 5:51 am at 5:51 am #645318
Goldie, do you smoke?
~a~May 12, 2009 5:53 am at 5:53 am #645319
not going to answer thatMay 12, 2009 5:54 am at 5:54 am #645320
ok, you’re entitled to your privacy.
~a~May 12, 2009 6:02 am at 6:02 am #645321
how many ppl do you know who have never smoked. it is like something you need to do for yourselfMay 12, 2009 6:05 am at 6:05 am #645322
goldie, one thing to try it out once, I admit, I’ve done that. Something else to smoke.
~a~May 12, 2009 6:06 am at 6:06 am #645323
GoldieLoxx: no, it’s not something you NEED to do for yourself! oh please! i had a cigarette once, mind you someone passed it to me, while i was having a hard time! i tried it once & will NEVER try it again!May 12, 2009 6:08 am at 6:08 am #645324
so, ames, what do you smoke?;)
~a~May 12, 2009 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #645327
Jax- good for you! You make the CR proud (I just had to say it the way you would- it shtims ;))May 12, 2009 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #645328
ames – cigars? or cigarillos? I like the smell of cigarillos too. But most of the inexpensive cigars are stinky (IMSO).May 12, 2009 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #645329
you really think your opinion is so smokin? 😉May 12, 2009 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #645330
Goldie- it’s like drinking…some things are just built for us men. SorryMay 12, 2009 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #645331
ames, you really smoked a cigar? i never would’ve thunk. you’re too cool, person! 😉May 12, 2009 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #645333
What if he smokes but doesn’t inhale?May 12, 2009 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #645335
SMOKING IS GOYISHMay 12, 2009 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #645336
grada unfortunately it’s quite jewish… 😉
head over to the New Members thread! man- this place is bursting with new members 🙂
really grada is here a while, but never postedMay 12, 2009 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #645337
areivim, couldn’t you say “grada really is here a while…”? It would be equally confusing.May 12, 2009 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #645338
I left that up to you- being the least understood CR member…May 12, 2009 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #645339
areivim: thanx man!May 13, 2009 1:22 am at 1:22 am #645340
“What if he smokes but doesn’t inhale? “
Then you can call him Bill Clinton.May 13, 2009 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #645341
oomis1105- or Churchill for that price! But then you need the v sign too.
I hope you Americans know who Churchill was????May 13, 2009 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #645342
hey wasn’t he the communist russian dude who smoked like a chimney and started world war two??
just kidding- of course we know who he wasMay 13, 2009 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #645343
noitallmr- we know where he fits into history, but I was unaware of his smoking habitsMay 13, 2009 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #645344
but I was unaware of his smoking habits
Somehow the image of Churchill and a cigar always comes to mind. Or am I think of
J. Edgar Hoover?
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