January 28, 2009 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #589243
A mir bochur just posted he is fed up with smoking in Israel. I agree with that to a certain extent but what is he doing on the internet. I think someones spiritual health is more important than his physical health. I think its worse for him to be here than smoking a few marlboro lights with his coffee befoe first seder.January 28, 2009 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #638753teenMember
not neccessarily the internet is something that in todays world is a neccessity. not having it isnt going to stop someone from needing it. it is better to have it with firewalls that not allow people to use it at all. eventually they will need it and when they eventually get unlimited access (which they will bec they will need it) they may not be able to hold themselves back from anything bec this is something new to them. so in fact having the internet (with firewalls) may be helping for the future rather than hurting him while smoking is only and definitly hurting him
besides rnt u on the internet too?January 28, 2009 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #638754
How exactly is being on YWN ruining his spiritual health? And assuming you imagine he visits other sites on the internet, who’s to say you don’t. What about your spiritual health? Maybe he doesn’t have a problem with visiting unsavory sites. Not everyone is a perpetual sinner, unable to control themselves. Please let people live their lives.January 28, 2009 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #638755moish01Member
yeah with the filter on my thing (i figured it out, by the way – don’t tell!) he wouldn’t be able to get anywhere anyway.January 28, 2009 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #638756areivimzehlazehParticipant
I don’t think there’s any comparison that can be done hereJanuary 28, 2009 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #638757
a mir guy on the internet is a little different than me here. im not learning full time as he supposedly is. when i give tzadaka to yeshivos i expect the bochurim learning, not on the internet at 1 o clock in the morning. and where exactly is his internet? a cafe in town which is definitely not the place for a yeshiva bochur? or maybe in his own deera which is surely against the rules of the mirJanuary 28, 2009 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #638758ddMember
How can someone’s spiritual health be more important than his physical health? The Torah teaches us to guard our physical health, so smokers are harming BOTH their physical and spiritual healths.January 28, 2009 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #638759
learning full time doesn’t mean 24 hours a day, nor is anyone expected to learn that much. Yeshiva bochrim are human beings not robots. They need rest and relaxation just like you do. Why do you care if he reads YWN as opposed to reading The J Post? Unless you want him to learn gematrias for rest, but that isn’t realistic. Students in Harvard rest from their studies, a yehiva bachur is no different and people should stop judging them.January 28, 2009 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #638760cantoresqMember
To all of you who wrong your hands and tut tut about the internet and the need to asser it, consider the following: When printing was first invented (and printing was its generation’s internet in terms of making information, including “bad stuff” available to the masses) did rabbonim protest and try to forbid it?January 28, 2009 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #638761
dd- very good point and to azi-i dont think the internet is kosher rest and relaxation. there are many other outlets to rest and relax and i think a yeshiva bochur on the internet is worse than smoking a couple cigarretes a dayJanuary 28, 2009 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #638762
again i make my point that not everyone is a perpetual sinner, unable to control themselves. Please let people live their lives.January 28, 2009 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #638763
azi- i dont think anything i say here in this thread is going to prevent ppl. from living their lives. the gedolim have warned the public before about the dangers of the internet to teens and bochurimJanuary 28, 2009 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #638764
Maybe the rabbanim are underestimating their flock.January 29, 2009 1:29 am at 1:29 am #638765JosephParticipant
Maybe the flock are underestimating their Rabbonim.January 29, 2009 1:30 am at 1:30 am #638766
i think your overestimating the average teenager. there are loads of stories of teenagers getting messed up from chat rooms and inappropriate sites. take your head out of the water if you think the Rabbanim and Gedolei Hador such as R Eliyashiv shlita are underestimating their flock.January 29, 2009 1:40 am at 1:40 am #638767
The people who stand behind him and whisper in his ear tell him everyone is evel and that the internet is all eveil, so what else would he say?January 29, 2009 1:53 am at 1:53 am #638768
(evil)January 29, 2009 1:54 am at 1:54 am #638769
sorry to be so blunt but apparently i put my trust and faith in Gedolei Hador and you dontJanuary 29, 2009 2:01 am at 2:01 am #638770
You are 100% right, I put my trust and faith in GOD. And I formally dissociate myself from your heretical comment.January 29, 2009 2:07 am at 2:07 am #638771syriansephardiMember
I agree with azi. Why are u worrying about others?! Its none of your buisness!! So maybe he wants to check the news and happened to see the coffee room and spend a couple of minutes on here. Big deal. Yeshiva guys aren’t aloud to do anything but learn 24/7?! Your gonna disagree with whatever I’m saying, I’m prepared.January 29, 2009 2:17 am at 2:17 am #638772
I think its an unfair comparison. Smoking is definitely bad for your healthy. The internet may be bad for your spiritual health but is not necessarily. If you don’t understand the distinction, I can expand my point.January 29, 2009 2:50 am at 2:50 am #638773
yea syrian. if your caught in the mir with a laptop your chucked. why is that? do they not trust their bochurim to check only the news?January 29, 2009 3:07 am at 3:07 am #638774tentwenty30Member
Azi … finally a voice of sanity.
This constant black-and-white rhetoric is driving me insane. The internet, while it has dangers that cannot be understated, have tremendous benefits as well. It is not so simple that something can be banned outright, and to be frank, I do not trust someone to tell me what to do in a situation that they have NO experience with.
As well, why is it more dangerous to a teenager than to a regular guy. They/We all have the same challenge in this regard, and although the challenge to teenagers is more pronounced, that does not mean that it could be disregarded in adults.
A filter/screen that someone else checks constantly is the best way to safeguard oneself from these issues, and the simple banning of said internet is both foolish and wrongJanuary 29, 2009 3:30 am at 3:30 am #638775
tentwenty: another voice of insanity.January 29, 2009 3:53 am at 3:53 am #638776
Just because the Mir doesn’t trust their talmidim doesn’t automatically prove your point. The Mir is part of the problem. Syriansephardi is correct.
Thanks, I am actually glad to see someone who can recognize the sanity you referred to. Sometimes I feel like I’m in the Twilight Zone here. The black-and-white views that so many people on this site have, is very disturbing.January 29, 2009 5:04 am at 5:04 am #638778amichaiParticipant
flatbush, what are you doing in new york? they need people like you in kiryat sefer!January 29, 2009 6:02 am at 6:02 am #638780yankdownunderMember
I am in agreement with dd smoking is an assur the Rambam writes it is a mitzvah to guard the guf. Smoking is very damaging not only to a Bohur who chooses to smoke but also to people who have to smell his smoke. If he gets sick from a lung infection then he may have stay home to recuperate and get well which interrupts his learning seder. A Mir or any Yeshiva Bachur (imho) does not belong on the internet in the first place. Why is he not learning with his chavrusa? Why take a YB who has a mind that is clear and pure from learning Gemorah, and sully it by making the internet totally available and accessible to him? What is the role of the RY., Mashgiach and the other Rabbis in the Yeshiva as far their level of involvement in the personal life of the Bochur? If someone is from a Frum Family do his Parents really want him surfing the net instead of learning?January 29, 2009 6:11 am at 6:11 am #638781anonymisssParticipant
Oh, so rabbonim assured smoking? Guess what? They also did that to internet!
~a~January 29, 2009 6:21 am at 6:21 am #638782
i agree with yankdownunderJanuary 29, 2009 9:37 am at 9:37 am #638784Daniel BreslauerMember
I’d prefer a yeshiva bochur (or myself, for that matter) being on the internet all day over smoking 1 cigarette a month.January 29, 2009 11:49 am at 11:49 am #638785VeryRandomMember
For all those who say that they feel it is ok to use the internet bec there are also many necessities, can you honestly tell me that you would buy a pruste magazine if it also had some clean pages and you say that you will only look at the clean ones? How can you put yourself in a matzav that you are so close to polluting your mind?If you say U’shimartem es Nafshoseichem- what part of your body could possibly be more important that your brain and the way you think?Im not saying that I promote smoking but it is clearly the lesser of two evils.January 29, 2009 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #638786
You are totally wasting your time talking to these people who think that they are smarter than the Gedolim. They believe what they want to believe & nothing will change their minds.
The big problem is that what we consider to be spiritual damage to them is “being normal”. Just forget it, you’re talking to the wall. (actually worse, the wall does not spew back narishkeit).
BTW, Someone’s spiritual health affects them on this world & the next world & for all eternity.
Someone’s physical health only affects them on this world. (Obviously a shorter life on this world can prevent you from earning more reward in the next world however ill spiritual health can DETRACT OR ELIMINATE your portion in the next world. Yes, you CAN lose your portion in Olam haba)January 29, 2009 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #638788gavra_at_workParticipant
Who says its not in his dorm to call his mommy in Chutz?January 29, 2009 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #638789
I’m getting tired of the hypocrisy that is constantly shown on this site. If you want to defend the rabbonim that’s fine and right. But to go so far as to say that flatbush is talking to a wall is ridiculous. THE GEDOLIM SHOULD STOP TALKING TO YOU because they are obviously talking to a wall.
At least have rabbonim to rely on who don’t find internet use so objectionable. You have noone. Because you don’t even listin to your own rabbonim.January 29, 2009 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #638790
I still think this comparison is a little bit off.
I think all rabbonim say smoking is bad.
Many rabbonim say internet is bad (lets go with this for a moment).
Would you ever say “what is worse, eating pork or eating shellfish?” No they are both wrong. Some people have more of a desire for one than the other.
If your rabbonim have not assured the internet (as mine have not), then the comparison is even worse. Smoking is assur the internet is not.
Either way I think this conversation doesnt make much sense.January 29, 2009 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #638791
“But to go so far as to say that flatbush is talking to a wall is ridiculous.”
“Because you don’t even listin to your own rabbonim.”
We’ve discussed this before…apparently you’ve forgotten what I wrote then.
“Either way I think this conversation doesnt make much sense.”
We agree again!!January 29, 2009 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #638792
We agree again!!
Does that make 3? Let me check my door for Moshiach! (i’ll make sure you’re his next stop)January 29, 2009 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #638793feivelParticipant
To all of you who wrong your hands and tut tut about the internet and the need to asser it, consider the following: When printing was first invented (and printing was its generation’s internet in terms of making information, including “bad stuff” available to the masses) did rabbonim protest and try to forbid it?
i dont recall the printing presses printing full color pictures and video of the worst kind of lewdness, with instant access, sometimes even if you dont want it. i dont reall being able to press on a piece of paper and gamble away my family’s life savings, as well as lose my job and family and health, so easily, a click away. i dont recall the instant communication and ability to fool thousands of young children by pedophiles posing as someone else and arranging ugly meetings, i dont recall men becoming addicted to printing press games and destroying their lives along with their families. you know we could go on and on
so maybe there is something to “tut, tut” about as you so nicely phrased it.January 29, 2009 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #638794
gavra: what are you talkin about? the rules of the deera and dorm are the same
daniel breslaur: if you actually believe what you wrote i seriously feel bad for you. the internet is one of the worst tests to teens these days and it could to the worst aveiros. smoking one cigarette never killed anyone. if you want say if somebody smokes one he will become hooked, thats ridiculus because we all know so many people who smoked a couple cigarettes a year.
veryrandom: you make complete sense but only from a bochurs standpoint. im sure you meant that though.
azi: “Students in Harvard rest from their studies, a yehiva bachur is no different and people should stop judging them. The people who stand behind him and whisper in his ear tell him everyone is evel and that the internet is all eveil, so what else would he say? “
yeshiva bochurim are supposed to striving to become bnei torah and talmidei chachamim. any jew, yeshiva bochur or not is 100 percent different from a goy in harvard. there is no comparison. and your “wall” is that you think the ppl whispering in his ear dont know what their talking about so then you dont trust gedolim. do you listen to them about kashrus and other matters but not by things you dont agree with like internet? Judiasm is not pick and choose.
amichai “what are you doing in new york? they need people like you in kiryat sefer!”
they need less people like you in the upper east side and teaneckJanuary 29, 2009 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #638795jphoneMember
“A mir bochur just posted he is fed up with smoking in Israel. I agree with that to a certain extent but what is he doing on the internet. I think someones spiritual health is more important than his physical health. I think its worse for him to be here than smoking a few marlboro lights with his coffee befoe first seder.”
Perhaps he would be in the Beis Medrash if he didnt need a gas mask to sit over his gemara? Or, perhaps he is online gathering information about how deadly cigarette smoke is to a person. Or, perhaps he just finished an 18 hour learning marathon and needed a break from mental exertion. Perhaps he knows of a site that allows him to smoke virtually. Who knows. This thread is so obviously looking to pick on certain people, how is it the moderators, all 1,678,213 of them, didnt label it DOA.January 29, 2009 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #638798moish01Member
that’s one of the stupidest things i’ve ever heard. sorry.
and i’m on the internet plenty and yes i do smoke every so often.January 29, 2009 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #638799
jphone. no one in todays day and age need to go online to find out that smoking kills. if they dont know that they dont dont know obamas prsident. what are you smokin virtually? all i said is a couple cigarettes here and there is not as bad as coming on to the internet because there are so many tests and dangers that bochurm can fall into. if you cant figure out what they are then i guess you need the internet to tell you smoking killsJanuary 29, 2009 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #638800holtzichfestMember
SMOKING NISHT GIFERLACH THERE ARE MUCH MORE SERIUOS THINGS TO WORRY ABOUT
IF YOU OFFERED ME FOR A EIDIM A BUCHUR WHO LEARNS 12 HOURS A DAY AND AGAV HE SMOKES (not 2 packs a day) OR A BOCHER WHO LEARNS 10 HOURS A DAY BUT SPENDS THOSE TWO HOURS ON THE INTERNET ON KOSHER SITES ONLY I WOULD PICK THE FIRST ONE AND SO WOULD MOST OF THE PEOPLE WHO COMMENT HERE WHEN IT COMES LIMASEHJanuary 29, 2009 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #638801
i agree with holtz all the way and the lakewood and kollel crowd doesnt really have a problem marrying these types of bochurim who smoke a couple a day or a couple a week. they usually quit before marrige anyway.its a bigger problem if they go on the internet. and all the girls who said on the ssiy thread they and their freinds dont even look into smokers, i think those girls arent looking for a lakewood type guy who will sit in kollel. theyre looking for guys who are in college or working so smokers in that category is alot less than the smokers in lakewood so they are right, why should they take a smoker? the bottom line is a yeshiva bochur has no valid excuse to be on the internet and id rather him smoking occasionaly than being on the internetJanuary 29, 2009 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #638803stopbashingMember
Posted by Azi: “How exactly is being on YWN ruining his spiritual health? “
How about the rampant loshon Hora and bad-mouthing of Jews of other stripes?January 29, 2009 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #638804oomisParticipant
“For all those who say that they feel it is ok to use the internet bec there are also many necessities, can you honestly tell me that you would buy a pruste magazine if it also had some clean pages and you say that you will only look at the clean ones? How can you put yourself in a matzav that you are so close to polluting your mind?If you say U’shimartem es Nafshoseichem- what part of your body could possibly be more important that your brain and the way you think?Im not saying that I promote smoking but it is clearly the lesser of two evils. “
If I were to buy a pruste magazine, it would be almost impossible to fail to see pruste pictures in it. Unlike the Internet where one does not HAVE to go to disgusting sites and can in fact block them, magazines are unpredictable as to what will be printed on the next page you turn. There is no gezaira shava between magazines and the internet, except for the fact that they both disseminate information. With all due respect (are you a smoker, btw?) smoking is clearly NOT the lesser of two evils. Even if you want to use the excuse that the internet destroys your neshama or rbain, or whatever (and that is arguable), there is absolutely NO question that smoking destroys the body of the smoker AND anyone who is unfortunate to be stuck around him for a length of time. Babies whose mothers or fathers smoke, have many more upper respiratory illnesses as those who parents don’t. The internet, like anything else in life, can be used for good or for bad. If you drink too much water, it is bad for you, too. If you abuse painkillers that have been prescribed by a doctor, it can kill you. Anything can be misused. The potential for good use of the internet far outweighs the bad, in my opinion. There should be better failsafes in place for “kosher” use.January 29, 2009 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #638805
R’ Belsky, R’ Shmuel Kaminetzky, the Noveminsker Rebbe & many others have said over & over again that the internet is the single greatest destroyer of frum families in our generation. (I heard it from R’ Belsky with my own ears A FEW YEARS AGO!)
While smoking definitly is a stupid thing to do, flatbush & holtzichfest are totally correct.January 29, 2009 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #638806Y.W. EditorKeymaster
Check out the following link to a YWN story from August 2007, in which Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky talks about the issur of smoking.
Guess he felt that smoking wins over Internet….January 29, 2009 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #638807
Are you attempting to bash me or are you just making a general point? it’s hard to tell.January 29, 2009 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #638808
Editor: how do you know that? no one here is denying smoking is assur and dangerous. as not pashut said before r shmuel said “that the internet is the single greatest destroyer of frum families in our generation”. i dont think R Shmuel said that about smoking which would prove you wrong
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