December 12, 2018 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1643469
Millhouse: Folks, More Proof that ProVaxxers on this Thread are Liars! I wrote CONGRESSMEN not CONGRESS which is 100% TRUE!
No, you didn’t, not until you were called on it.
December 2, 2018 10:56 am Reply #1635169 (page 8)
“Congress has requested that CDC do this study, but CDC REFUSES!”
December 2, 2018 5:06 pm Reply #1635380 (page 8)
“Congress requested that the CDC do this study, but CDC adamantly refuses.
Folks, today is December TWELVE not December SECOND. And on December Eleven I
wrote TWICE: “Why won’t CDC do the Retrospective Study as had been requested by Congressmen???”
Post #1641462 and Post #1642162.
On December TWELVE, 2Cents LIED as Follows: Post 1642322 Page 15:
“You asked why the CDC doesnt comply with Congresses request, this has been discussed that there was no request by Congress.”
That was a LIE! I specifically wrote TWICE CongressMEN – not Congress! And it IS true that CongressMEN demanded that CDC do a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study and CDC Refused!
See how all the ProVaxxers on this Thread LIE???
Why should you believe anything they write about the Safety of Vaccines when they are SO Dishonest???December 12, 2018 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #1643525
TO ALL PRO-VAXXERS: You’re wasting your time arguing with Doomsday! S/he obviously has skin in the game. Probably made a career out of this, – by being Anti-vax, possibly selling Homeopathic Junk.
One of my first posts to her/him was – that she/he should get (like a 1,000) of her/his friends to volunteer for the Vaxxed – Unvaxxed Study. She/he HASN’T Responded to this Request. E/o else can’t be denied vaccination!
I think e/o should go to the website called -“Voices for Vaccines”- and click on the article called -“Growing Up Unvaccinated”.
You’ll see why she became Pro-vaxx!December 12, 2018 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #1643541
1. I am Female
2. It’s Pharmaceutical Industry who is making about 60 BILLION on Vaccines FORCED onto people.
3. Pharmaceutical Industry makes TRILLION $$$ on selling Meds to all the Chronically Sick Kids they
CREATED. Selling Ritalin, Insulin, Chemotherapy, Anti-Seizure Medication, Epi-Pens, etc.
4. Plenty of Unvaxxed people available for Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed Study. CDC Refuses.
5. There have been some Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed studies (though CDC LIES that there aren’t any).
Guess What? Unvaccinated have Waaaaaaay Less Autism, ADHD, Allergies, Asthma, Learning Disabilities etc.December 12, 2018 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #1643567
Your trying very hard, you keep on making claims and had ample opportunity to show something for it. But you have not provided thise studies.
I have shown you multiple studies that were publised and reviewed, Discussing autism, asthma and allergies. Yet you have chosen to believe that thise studies do not meet your standard, despite it being accepted by almost the entire scientific and medical community.
Thise studies are evidence, the evidence that is the deciding factor which is why its termed evidence based medicine.
Its clear that you will only accept (even if it means deviating from the truth and lying about the actual study conclusion) studies that are aligned with your cult-like anti medicine, anyi scientific belief. Anything else is fraudulent and a lie.
This is why your considered ‘alternative’ and associated with the likes of other conspiracy theorists.December 12, 2018 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #1643572
That was a LIE! I specifically wrote TWICE CongressMEN – not Congress!
You were caught in a blatant lie. You most definitely wrote “Congress” and when you were called out on that lie, in subsequent posts wrote “congressmen”. Denying that is not only another lie, it’s a really dumb one since your post saying “Congress” is still up there.
It’s not really much more dishonest than most of the things you’ve written about vaccines, which are also pretty blatant lies, but this doozy of a lie is right here for everyone to see.December 13, 2018 7:46 am at 7:46 am #1643716
WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS ANTI-VAXXER CULT!!
They made an Asifa about Smart phones – How about the need to Vaccinate?!?
As you’ll see from this post – Anti-vaxxers are causing Rezicha (promoting DEATH).
“The importance of complying with vaccination protocols in developed countries: “anti-vax” hysteria and the spread of severe preventable diseases.
Pandolfi F1, Franza L1, Todi L1, Carusi V1, Centrone M1, Buonomo A1, Newton EE1, Schiavino D1, Nucera E1.
Vaccines are very effective medical tools for disease prevention and life span increase. Controversies have raised concern about their safety, from autism to polio vaccine contamination with simian virus 40 (SV-40). Hysteria surrounding vaccine-associated risks has resulted in a declining number of vaccinations in developed countries. Outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases (e.g. measles) have occurred in Europe and North America, causing also some causalities.
In this review, data on safety and efficacy of vaccines are discussed, showing that the benefits of vaccines far outweigh the risks and that it is important to comply with vaccination protocols, to avoid spreading of severe, preventable diseases.
Those opposed to vaccinations suggest that scientific literature supporting vaccines is influenced by pharmaceutical companies. In this review, studies on influenza produced by independent scientists and those authored by those who received some kind of benefit from the industry are discussed separately. All the chosen papers were selected through a MEDLINE research.
Vaccination rates are decreasing, even though they are effective public health tools. Influenza, for example, is responsible for 250,000-500,000 deaths each year, according to the WHO. Yet, campaigns to extend influenza vaccine to all elderly subjects report little success, because of the vaccine scare and because not all patients develop immunity following vaccination.
This review proves that vaccine hysteria is detrimental because: 1) it causes an increased morbidity and mortality from preventable diseases; 2) it jeopardizes research for new vaccines; 3) patients are reluctant to accept any form of immune-therapy, commonly referred to as “vaccination”.”December 13, 2018 8:09 am at 8:09 am #1643816
Heath:HTO ALL PRO-VAXXERS: You’re wasting your time arguing with Doomsday! S/he obviously has skin in the game. Probably made a career out of this, – by being Anti-vax, possibly selling Homeopathic Junk.
Have you ever studied the Science and Principles of Homeopathy? Why do you label junk about something that you don’t know anything about?
Let’s assume that dooms is earning a living selling homeopathic junk, is that comparable to the billions that big Pharma is earning from vaccines?
My only conclusion from reading these posts on this forum is this: either the pro vaxxers are all brain-dead,or are being paid by Big Pharma to promote vaccinations.
The pro vaxxers would profit more by doing the research and investigation on this controversial subject, than just wait for dooms to open her mouth and then pounce on her like a pack of wolves.
I know my words are falling on deaf ears, because even if the pro vaxxers in this forum had the truth staring at them
in their face they wouldn’t recognize it.
My message is to those parent’s who are still sitting on the fence and wish to know the truth about vaccines; do your research and study this topic. There is literally tons of information out their that encompass the pro vaccine and anti vaccination viewpoint.
I will conclude, that a parent who has diligently done his of her homework and come to the decision to vaccinate their children, I will still tip my hat to them, because they are responsible parent’s who truly care about the welfare of their children, and will not be swayed by the media (which is supported by Big Business including Big Pharma), or bullying doctors whews knowledge of immunology is zero (ask them if they even read the inserts of the vaccines).
My advice to dooms is to discontinue posting, as these clowns who promote vaccines are the real cultist and rotfim that should ousted from the community.December 13, 2018 9:16 am at 9:16 am #1643897
Some Common SenseParticipant
91 people in Rockland County have contracted Measles because of one person.
What do we call that in Halacha and what are the implications of that title?
I know the anti-vaxxers will not answer this because they are only dealing with second hand information that have read but if this is YESHIVA World News are mostly Frum Jews, the Torah and Da’as Torah should and must be our first priority. Maybe some of the Anti-Vaxxers on this blog are not Frum Jews?December 13, 2018 9:17 am at 9:17 am #1643907
“My advice to dooms is to discontinue posting, as these clowns who promote vaccines are the real cultist and rotfim that should ousted from the community.”
Nice, you begin your post as if your a moderate and level headed person, yet your last paragraph exposes your radical beliefs.
If you call people that form their decisions based on facts and evidence clowns, i guess people that hang onto lies and garbage science are those that you respect.
Unlike you, i would encourage anyone with real data and science to present it, regardless on which side if the argument they stand.
Until that happens, we have overwhelming evidence as well almost the entire scientific, medical and rabinical community that stand by the evidence that vaccines are safe and should be given.December 13, 2018 10:25 am at 10:25 am #1643954
I’m very sorry about my remark that the pro vaxxers are clowns. What I really meant was that some of the responses to the posts to the anti vaxxers were just insults and downright silliness.
Again I repeat my regrets for insulting anyone.
I will respect your viewpoint if you respect mine.December 13, 2018 10:26 am at 10:26 am #1643963
Beis Hillel: My only conclusion from reading these posts on this forum is this: either the pro vaxxers are all brain-dead,or are being paid by Big Pharma to promote vaccinations.
The pro vaxxers would profit more by doing the research and investigation on this controversial subject, than just wait for dooms to open her mouth and then pounce on her like a pack of wolves.
I know my words are falling on deaf ears, because even if the pro vaxxers in this forum had the truth staring at them in their face they wouldn’t recognize it.
I also suspect that the ProVaxxers are hired by Pharmaceutical Company because they are SO Dishonest and
refuse to recognize anything that is not Pro-Vaccine. Thank you for your support!December 13, 2018 10:26 am at 10:26 am #1643986
2Cents: we have overwhelming evidence as well almost the entire scientific, medical and rabinical community that stand by the evidence that vaccines are safe and should be given.
Folks, ever heard of GALILEO? Around 1600, He was an Astronomer who discovered that the planets revolve around the SUN and published his Study. This contradicted the teachings of the Church that the planets revolve around EARTH. And a Scientist cannot prove the CHURCH IS WRONG – because then the Church would lose all their POWER.
So Galileo was Arrested and threatened with being BURNED ALIVE if he did not “recant” and say he was WRONG! But Galileo refused, even though ALL the Scientists in the World said Galileo was wrong.
All the Scientists knew that GALILEO WAS RIGHT – but they did not want their lives destroyed so they PUBLICLY claimed to believe that the planets revolved around the Earth – even though they knew it was FALSE!
Galileo was not Executed but spent the rest of his life under House Arrest. And today Galileo is considered a SCIENCE HERO for NOT going along with the “Whole Scientific Community” but standing up for TRUTH!
History repeats itself! Scientists are PAID BY GOVERNMENT and must make FAKE STUDIES to Prove whatever Government wants: EVOLUTION, Climate Change, A Man is REALLY a Woman if He/She/It Says So, VACCINES ARE SAFE, etc. And Any Scientist or Doctor who says NO, VACCINES ARE NOT SAFE – is Persecuted!
There are over 150 Studies by Real Scientists that Vaccines are Linked to Autism and the ProVaxxers on this Thread Keep LYING: There are NO STUDIES that Vaccines are linked Autism – Except for Wakefield. I hope people reading this Thread notices how the ProVaxxers must keep LYING to defend their Vaccine Cult! And how they reject as False any EVIDENCE that proves Vaccines are Dangerous! Or say the evidence DOESN’T EXIST – when it’s right there on the internet! And deny that I Proved that CDC makes
FRAUDULENT Studies, etc.
If we as Torah Jews reject ALL SCIENTISTS who say Evolution is True, we can reject that Most Scientists say
“Vaccines are Safe”. Scientists are BOUGHT and PAID by Government and Pharmaceutical Company. I showed how one Researcher who made FAKE STUDY on Vaccines was paid $1.6 MILLION by Pharmaceutical Company – they are all bribed, but only One was ever exposed.
Government is Bribed by Pharmaceutical Companies as well – Biggest DONOR to Congress – MILLIONS $$$$ Every Year! CDC is allowed to accept Gifts (Millions of $$$) from Pharmaceutical Industry they are supposed to be “regulating” – No other Federal Agency is allowed to accept “Gifts” (BRIBES) from Industry they are “Regulating” CDC OWN VACCINE PATENTS! Head of CDC becomes head of Merck and Merck Officials are Hired by CDC – it’s all ONE – and they are ganged up against We the People – FORCING us to be INJECTED with DANGEROUS Vaccines, AGAINST OUR WILL! That is TYRANNY!December 13, 2018 10:47 am at 10:47 am #1644022
Re: Rodfim – Vaccinated can ALSO Spread Disease.
Until a couple of years ago, Vaccine Inserts stated that Recently Vaccinated should avoid Immuno-Compromised for SIX WEEKS because they can be contagious. Hospitals also said that Recently Vaccinated should NOT VISIT sick people (didn’t bar UNvaccinated from visiting).
When the Anti-Vax community pointed out “Why are Unvaxxed barred from School when RECENTLY Vaccinated are allowed – even though Vaccine Industry says they are CONTAGIOUS?” THEN, Vaccine Industry CHANGED their inserts to say Recently Vaccinated Can be Contagious but very TINY risk. This Change of Recommendation was not based on any “studies” but Pure POLITICS.
So VACCINATED can Also SPREAD DISEASE – including Measles!December 13, 2018 10:49 am at 10:49 am #1644028
Other saying these studies exist, you have not provided them. So how can they be reviewed?
All the other nonsense stuff you mention, are just your (or probably from anti medicine websites) own made up facts. You have been told a number of times, the facts and data should be the deciding factor about this, not your beliefs (or your own facts).December 13, 2018 10:55 am at 10:55 am #1644039
All other inaccuracies in your posts notwithstanding, you are aware that the CDC is not the only medical organization that has concluded that vaccines are safe, right?
EVERY single major health organization and reputable medical journal and organization ON EARTH have come to the conclusion that vaccines are safe. You are positing that ALL reputable medical organizations in EVERY developed country on earth are part of a giant conspiracy to hide the fact that vaccines are in fact harmful.
Beis Hillel, “Alternative” remedies (homeopathy) BY DEFINITION have either been proven not to work OR have not been proven to work. You know what they call “Alternative” or “Homeopathic” remedies that have been proven to work? Medicine. They call them Medicine.December 13, 2018 11:00 am at 11:00 am #1644037
I am not posting for benefit of the ProVaxxers on this thread. I believe they are HIRED by Pharmaceutical Company to defend Vaccines because they post outright lies and reject any evidence that show vaccines are dangerous.
I post for the “people on the fence” to show there is REAL EVIDENCE that Vaccines are dangerous, that
CDC makes FRAUDULENT Studies – I show Specifically HOW and WHY the studies are FAKE. I think the
LYING by the ProVaxxers on this thread also damages the Credibility of Vaccine Safety Theory as many
readers have commented on this.December 13, 2018 11:21 am at 11:21 am #1644050
Here is what the Two BIGGEST Scientists have to say about Scientific Opinions:
“Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.” –Richard Feynman
“Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of Truth.”–Albert EinsteinDecember 13, 2018 11:22 am at 11:22 am #1644054
There are over 150 Studies by Real Scientists that Vaccines are Linked to Autism
Show me them. You keep telling me to “Google it” but the only thing I can find that even remotely resembles what you’re claiming is some comment on a forum that links to a Scrib.com collection of random documents.
To remind you of where to do your research:
- “Vaccines and autism: A thorough review of the evidence” from the blog “The Logic of Science”
- “About Those Research Papers Supporting the Vaccine/Autism Link” from the blog “Vaxopedia”
Unless you’ve read those links, you cannot in all honesty continue to peddle the claim that there exists studies showing a link.December 13, 2018 11:22 am at 11:22 am #1644060
Folks, today is December TWELVE not December SECOND. And on December Eleven I wrote TWICE: “Why won’t CDC do the Retrospective Study as had been requested by Congressmen???”
So? How does that change the fact that you lied, twice, on the second?December 13, 2018 11:31 am at 11:31 am #1644062
2Cents, The Studies linking Vaccines to Autism are Easy to find. Here are just a few websites Found:
So are you going to admit you were Wrong when you said “There are NO Studies linking Vaccines
to Autism, except for Wakefield’s” ?
“24 Published Studies Showing Vaccines Cause Autism ”
“157 Research Papers Supporting the Vaccine/Autism Link … – Scribd”
“Vaccine Safety Commission: 50 Studies” (general dangers – not on autism)
“International scientists have found autism’s cause.”December 13, 2018 11:40 am at 11:40 am #1644080
We just received a letter from the CDC asking us to close this thread.
They also sent us a nice holiday fruit basket.
Get in your final comments while you still can.December 13, 2018 11:46 am at 11:46 am #1644081
why do you have to listen to CDC?December 13, 2018 11:48 am at 11:48 am #1644086
Did I mention they sent us a fruit basket? It was very nice.December 13, 2018 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1644103
25, did you see the fruit basket the Pharmaceutical company sent us? It’s a much nicer one.December 13, 2018 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #1644108
Some of the Lies in a Study cited by 2cents:
Look what I found in this paper, ” A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism”. NEJM,2002,Volume 347:1477-1482. Authors;
Kreesten Meldgaard Madsen, M.D., Anders Hviid, M.Sc., Mogens Vestergaard, M.D., Diana Schendel, Ph.D., Jan Wohlfahrt, M.Sc., Poul Thorsen, M.D., Jørn Olsen, M.D., and Mads Melbye, M.D.
“In our cohort [all kids diagnosed with autism in Denmark], 93.1 percent of the children were treated only as outpatients, and 6.9 percent were at some point treated as inpatients”.
Let’s see; 93.1/6.9 = 13.5 times more autistic outpatients than inpatients. The statement “the proportion of outpatient to inpatient activities was about 4 to 6 times as many outpatients as inpatients” isn’t even close to the truth. The obscure statement wasn’t only a lie, it was a double lie!December 13, 2018 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #1644084
000646; Beis Hillel, “Alternative” remedies (homeopathy) BY DEFINITION have either been proven not to work OR have not been proven to work. You know what they call “Alternative” or “Homeopathic” remedies that have been proven to work? Medicine. They call them Medicine.
Are you aware that the personal physician to Queen Elisabeth is a homeopath. She knows what’s real medicine, not the drugs with their myriads of side effects for which more drugs are needed to treat.
And besides, modern medicine does not claim cure any illness. All medicine today is palliative and causes more problems than it purports to benefit.
The same goes for vaccines. Whoever says that vaccines are 100% safe is lying, because the experts who are pro vaxxers say that their are risks, but claim that the benefits outweigh the risks, which is not based on any scientific studies.December 13, 2018 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #1644085
00646: EVERY single major health organization and reputable medical journal and organization ON EARTH have come to the conclusion that vaccines are safe.
Question: Do all those Health Organizations and Medical Journals take $$$$ From Pharmaceutical Company?
Answer: Yes, ALL OF THEM TAKE $$$ FROM PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY!
Article: This Is The Sickening Amount Pharmaceutical Companies Pay Top Journal Editors
Most shocking: medical journal editors are paid huge sums by pharmaceutical companies each year.
Worst on that list is the Journal of the American College of Cardiology (JACC), where19 of its editors received, on average, US$475,072 personally and another US$119,407 for ‘research’.
And that’s not even mentioning the amount of reprint money journals get whenever they publish a study that supports a pharmaceutical company, and the company pays for hundreds of copies to send out to doctors. The Lancet earns 41 percent of its income from reprints, and the American Medical Association gets 53 percent.
“The medical profession is being bought by the pharmaceutical industry, not only in terms of the practice of medicine, but also in terms of teaching and research,” said the late Arnold Relman, a former editor-in-chief of the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) in 2002. He passed away in 2014. “The academic institutions of this country are allowing themselves to be the paid agents of the pharmaceutical industry. I think it’s disgraceful.”
The article states that Medical Journals that take $$$ From Pharmaceutical Industry REFUSE to publish studies that show Prescription Drugs cause Harm! Same for Studies showing Vaccines are dangerous.December 13, 2018 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #1644087
Where is the freedom of speech? Are we living in Stalinist Russia? Are they afraid of the truth?December 13, 2018 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #1644089
Bais Hillel -“My only conclusion from reading these posts on this forum is this: either the pro vaxxers are all brain-dead,or are being paid by Big Pharma to promote vaccinations.”
Why do you Anti-vaxxers always attack others? Oh that’s right – you don’t keep the Torah! Almost every Rov in the World says YOU MUST VAX!!!
“The pro vaxxers would profit more by doing the research and investigation on this controversial subject, than just wait for dooms to open her mouth and then pounce on her like a pack of wolves.”
Another ANTI-VAXX LIE! You see – we actually studied. NO, We didn’t study Homeopathy, but REAL Medicine. You see – Homeopathy doesn’t work, that’s why the Western World came up with Modern Medicine. We went to college and studied. How did you learn about Vaccines? Did you go to High School? How about College?December 13, 2018 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #1644092
Medical journals influential in promoting — or destroying — new drugs should not be trusted because research once considered independent is now paid for by the pharmaceutical industry, according to the former editor of one of the nation’s top journals.
“Yeah, it used to be that way,” said former New England Journal of Medicine Editor Dr. Marcia Angell. But, she added, “it began to change as the pharmaceutical industry became richer, more powerful, more influential, and began to take over the sponsorship of probably most clinical research now.”December 13, 2018 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #1644093
Obviously this is Big Pharma pushing their agenda!
But to be serious, it’s been fun guys. Thanks for the pointless arguments and bitul zman. I’m honestly surprised this thread lasted this long.December 13, 2018 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #1644094
00646:EVERY single major health organization and reputable medical journal and organization ON EARTH have come to the conclusion that vaccines are safe.
Editor of The New England Journal of Medicine “It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as editor of The New England Journal of Medicine”
Richard Horton, editor of The Lancet, wrote that “The case against science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness”December 13, 2018 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #1644095
“2Cents, The Studies linking Vaccines to Autism are Easy to find. Here are just a few websites Found:”
I am sure there are a number of websites, I was asking for published studies.
Being that you will disregard any studies that have any conflicts of interests I am sure that the websites you are referring to all are free of any conflicts.
When you accuse all the posters of “I believe they are HIRED by Pharmaceutical Company to defend Vaccines because they post outright lies and reject any evidence that show vaccines are dangerous.”
This would mean the CDC either hacked the YWN admin dashboard or figured out who we are and came to us (many of us have accounts that are pretty old) threatening us with our lives unless we post what they tell us to write.
Do you really believe in this conspiracy as strong as you believe that the entire scientific community and different agencies and different entities across the globe are all in the vaccination conspiracy?
Anyways, all of this is pure nonsense, what matters are real facts which is taken from data. Other than a few random radical anti-medicine blogs and a handful of rejected individuals the medical community has concluded that the evidence demonstrating the safety of vaccines is overwhelming.
Only because you have an issue with either comprehending the studies or you simply refuse to accept them, is not a sufficient reason the rest of us should follow along with your ‘alternative’ approach.
Almost everything you have posted has been shown to either be not true, twisted truth or actually concludes that vaccines are safe. You have failed to acknowledge any of this, you just repeat yourself time after time. This is the reason this thread is so long, multiple repeats of your posts.December 13, 2018 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #1644098
I’ll stop posting if you’ll send me some of the fruit the CDC sent you.December 13, 2018 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #1644100
Doomsday, your understanding of what happened to Galileo is just as FALSE as your understanding of vaccines. Almost every single “fact” you wrote about Galileo is wrong.December 13, 2018 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #1644101
“Did I mention they sent us a fruit basket? It was very nice.”
– They are poisoning you with Formaldehyde.
Besides, all people that ate fruit at one point eventually died.December 13, 2018 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #1644102
“We just received a letter from the CDC asking us to close this thread.”
I assume this is a joke. Because if it isn’t, you’ve fallen for a hoax. But I’m sure it is a joke.December 13, 2018 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #1644104
Folks, I believe the Owner of Yeshiva World News (Pro-Vaccine) ordered that this Thread be Closed.
I have so much MORE Evidence against Vaccines, including HOW the CDC commits Fraud in studies cited
by 2cents, but I don’t think I am going to allowed to post it.
I hope I have encouraged “those on the fence” to do their own research and not blindly accept authority.
Pharmaceutical Industry is the RICHEST Industry in the Entire World. And they have given $$$ to most
Medical Schools, Medical Journals, Fund MOST Medical “Research”, give Freebies to Doctors, Give Millions
every year to Congress, 70% of Media Advertisement is Pharmaceutical Company – so Newspapers are “owned” (dependent) on Pharmaceutical Companies for their existence!
Think about it! Don’t be a Sheep!
I am a child of Holocaust Survivors and read many biographies of Holocaust Survivors and many survived because they did NOT “FOLLOW THE HERD” onto the trains. Many people refused to believe those who said Nazis are committing Mass Murder – called them “Crazy” “Fear Mongers”. People could not believe that a
CIVILIZED Government/Country could commit such ATROCITY – but they can! And it is happening again today! Remember that Scientists, Medical Doctors and Pharmaceutical Company participated in Holocaust!
The Tobacco Industry KNOWINGLY LIED that Smoking does NOT Cause Cancer. Thousands DIED!
And NOBODY went to Jail for it! Congress takes $$$$ from Tobacco Industry so they are protected!
Remember that CDC refuses to do Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study and that it was Smoker vs Non Smoker Study that PROVED Tobacco Industry Knowingly LIED that Smoking does Not Cause Cancer!December 13, 2018 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #1644105
Who wouldn’t have guessed Doomsday was female? Just sayin’…December 13, 2018 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #1644106
Re: Validity of Studies
Folks, have you ever seen a Research Study that came to a conclusion that was BAD for the
Company that PAID FOR the Research Study? NEVER! Not Once! NADA! GORNISHT!
That tells you EVERYTHING you need to know about the Validity of Research Studies!December 13, 2018 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #1644112
bais hillel: Have you ever studied the Science and Principles of Homeopathy?
There is no science in homeopathy. The basic principle of homeopathy is that you cure a disease by ingesting a tiny amount of something that causes similar symptoms, the tinier the better, so that the strongest homeopathic “remedies” are actually pure water, with no active ingredient in them at all.
Homeopaths believe that if you put a little of something in water and shake it up, the whole water gets the power of that little bit, but even stronger, and if you then dilute that water with more water and shake it up some more the whole mixture will be even stronger, etc. Therefore the strongest “remedies” end up being pure water, without even one molecule of the original ingredient that is supposed to be able to cure the disease.
Homeopathic “aspirin” would be stirring a swimming pool with a willow branch, and then pouring a jar of that water into another swimming pool, repeat ten times, and then drink some water from the last pool. Or a homeopathic remedy based on a herb that grows on a mountain would be to drink water from a stream that flows on the other side of the same mountain. Obviously this is pure magic, and cannot possibly be believed by any rational person.
The good thing about homeopathy is that just as it can’t possibly help, it also can’t possibly do harm. Homeopathic remedies are completely safe, and completely useless. They’re pure water.
And no, there are NO genuine, double-blind studies that show its effectiveness. Not a single one. Homeopaths will tell you there are, but go find them. They don’t exist. Just like the genuine studies that find a link between vaccines and autism, which also don’t exist.December 13, 2018 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1644177
My, those watermelon slices are delicious.December 13, 2018 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #1644288
DOOMSDAY -“Folks, I don’t know how to insert these HISTORICAL Charts but if you google the above statement you can see
that it was NOT VACCINES which caused the decline in Death from infectious disease but:
1. Sanitation (Flush toilets)
2. Clean drinking water (not contaminated by feces)
3. Better nutrition
4. Less Overcrowding
5. Running Water (hand-washing prevents disease!)”
GUYS I hate to do this but these Anti-vaxxers are continously Playing With Peoples’ Minds!
Anyways here’s about Measles:
FRIDAY, JUNE 20, 2014
Pre-Vaccine Declines in Measles Mortality
On Monday, I discussed “pox parties” and “measles teas”, social gatherings where parents get their unvaccinated, nonimmune children together with another kid who has a disease, the purpose being to intentionally infect their kids and make them sick. It is a practice that, for at least a hundred years, has been decried by the scientific and medical community as a wretched idea, with one author describing them as “orgies of death”. Indeed, in my opinion, these parties are nothing more than child abuse.
While vaccine preventable diseases are not the killers they once were, as I mentioned in passing in that post, they are still quite dangerous; diseases like diphtheria and measles should be avoided and prevented whenever possible. Anti-vaccine activists seem quite enamored with pre-vaccine mortality data. They like to point to the declining death rates from diseases and declare that vaccines not only did not save us from those diseases, but that we didn’t need vaccines anyway. There are a couple of things wrong with this way of thinking. First off, it erroneously focuses on disease mortality and pretends that deaths and incidence are somehow the same thing. The implication is that the incidence, that is, the number of cases, was declining before the vaccines. Or they just come right out and say that death rate and incidence are the same:
Measles cases in all developed countries became much milder than in developing countries mainly due to improved diet. Is it logical that deaths associated with measles declined greatly without any corresponding decline in incidence?
That is, quite simply, false, not to mention sloppy thinking. Second, it ignores the non-fatal, but still quite serious, complications of diseases, such as severe dehydration, pneumonia, deafness, blindness, encephalopathy and permanent mental impairment, among others. And, yes, these diseases can still kill, even in developed nations with good healthcare like the United States.
I will readily admit, the measles vaccine did not contribute to the decline in deaths seen before the vaccine was licensed. (Duh!) But while anti-vaccine activists assert that the disease just got less dangerous on its own, they’re wrong. Here’s why.
As with many of the claims spewed into being by vocal vaccine deniers, I decided to delve into the literature to see what I could find. It’s a practice that, if they adopted it themselves, could save them a lot of time and embarrassment. The graph they like to trot out in support of this particular claim shows measles deaths from 1900 through the 1980s:
U.S. measles mortality per 100,000 population, 1900-1984
Looking at this graph, it’s pretty clear that death from measles declined considerably before the introduction of the vaccine. Death rate remained fairly steady through the first 18 or so years, then started to drop until about the 1940s, where it leveled off quite a bit. After introduction of the vaccine, it dropped to almost nothing. A similar graph, though looking at a smaller range and using a logarithmic scale, shows a similar, though more even and gradual, drop in deaths:
U.S. measles cases and deaths per 100,000 population, 1912-1974 (logarithmic scale)
Source: Barkin RM (1975). Measles mortality:a retrospective look at the vaccine era. Am J Epidemiol.
The second graph also shows that although deaths from measles declined, the incidence, that is, the number of cases, remained quite steady until about 1963, when the first measles vaccine was approved. One other thing to note in this graph. Sometimes, anti-vaccine folks will simply draw a straight line following the general slope of the data and extrapolate that by 2010, measles would not cause any deaths and would be gone on its own. But that ignores changes in medical care that occurred over that span of time, as well as ignoring changes in the slope itself. We see, for instance, that there’s a gradual decline until the early 1920s, then a slightly steeper slope until the late 1940s, with a leveling off in the 1950s. A perfectly straight line just doesn’t fit, at least if one is being honest. We see a precipitous drop in the number of cases around 1963. Notice, also that while death rates had been declining, those also dropped about ten-fold in the space of a few years. Compare that to the pre-vaccine era, where it took decades for an equally great drop in death rates (e.g., 1918-1943 and 1943-1967). That impact is something that you don’t see in the graph favored by anti-vaccine folks.
For this post, though, I want to focus on that gradual pre-vaccine decline in mortality. What should be clear is that although the incidence in diseases did not change before the introduction of the vaccine, mortality was decreasing. Was the virus changing; did it becom less virulent? Did the virus stay the same while we just got better at keeping patients alive? Ask an anti-vaccine advocate what happened, and you’re likely to get an answer that the virus itself was getting less deadly (i.e., less virulent) or that improved diet, sanitation and hygiene are what did it. Or some combination of those two. Period. End of story. The scientific literature paints a slightly different picture (surprise, surprise).
The early part of the 20th century saw a lot of significant changes affecting the way we live. Diets progressively improved, sanitation got better and overcrowding declined. These did have a big impact on overall health of the population. Malnutrition contributes to more severe courses of disease and increased mortality. Poor sanitation can increase the incidence of diseases spread via contaminated food or water, though not respiratory diseases like measles. And overcrowding creates conditions where there are many opportunities for a disease to find new hosts, spreading rapidly. Of course improvements in these areas would also contribute to improved outcomes following infection with a disease. But they only account for a portion of the measles mortality picture.
In the early 1900s and continuing through the middle part of the century, most measles deaths were not from the virus itself. Rather, secondary bacterial infections contributed significantly to the high mortality rate following measles, the most common of which is bacterial pneumonia (Babbott & Gordon, 1954). Common opportunistic bacteria to cause complications were streptococcus, pneumococcus and H. influenzae. In the first decade, there were no antibiotics that could treat these secondary infections, and for a number of years afterward, the antibiotic arsenal was limited. The only control measures available were imperfect attempts at quarantine to limit outbreaks. But given measles’ ability to spread before symptoms appear, such attempts were more or less futile (Curtis, 1916). Outbreaks simply had to run their course, and families had to hope that their children would survive. The advent of antibiotics, however, gave a new tool to drastically reduce the impact of secondary infections. Drugs to wipe out these pathogenic bacteria were a boon to doctors and their patients, allowing for a significant cause of death following measles to be virtually eliminated.
Another medical intervention which had a big impact on measles mortality was the use of gamma globulin. There were essentially two ways to use gamma globulin: temporary prevention of disease or modification of disease. In both cases, it was given to those who had been exposed to the virus. For prevention, it had to be given within 6 days of exposure (Janeway, 1945). If a sufficient dose was given soon enough, there was a decent chance of preventing the infection from taking hold. The good side is, the child would not get sick and be at risk for complications, like death. The bad side is that the immunity would only be short-lived; eventually, if re-exposed, the child could be infected again. For that reason, the dominant recommendation for gamma globulin was to use it to modify, rather than prevent, the illness. A smaller dose or one given too late for prevention could make the course of measles milder, while also allowing the patient to develop immunity to the virus. Although this could make the incubation period for the virus longer, the recognizable disease would have a shorter duration and much lower risk of complications. (Janeway, 1945). Other serum products, predating gamma globulin use, also had potential to prevent or modify the disease, though not as safely or effectively as gamma globulin (Babbott & Gordon, 1954). Modified disease, however, was still transmissible. These products, though, were not particularly cheap and did carry a risk of some serious side effects. They had to be used judiciously.
Another aspect that likely contributed to the declining death rates from measles were fertility and family size. From the beginning of the 20th century until the mid-1930s, birth rates steadily declined, leading to fewer children per family (Guyer, Freedman, Strobino & Sondik, 2000). This pushed the median age of infection off until children were slightly older. The shift in age of infection was hypothesized to have played a significant role in the reduction in infectious disease mortality (Reves, 1985), considering how dangerous measles was for those under 3 years of age (Henry, 1921).
A final factor that likely played a large role in the reduction of deaths from measles, particularly in the first few decades of the 1900s, was the establishment of local health departments and improved access to health care (Guyer et al., 2000). Local health departments could help to educate the populace about diseases and how to minimize the risks of exposure and infection. Over this period, as well, improvements in neonatal and postneonatal care reduced mortality and improved the overall health of infants. Increased access to health care for infants and young children could address conditions that might have otherwise contributed to complications of measles, just as measles could negatively affect the course of other diseases, such as tuberculosis (Babbott & Gordon, 1954).
A couple things that did not change were the virulence of the virus (Babbott & Gordon, 1954), nor the risk of encephalitis, at about 1 in 1,000 cases (Babbott & Gordon, 1954; Perry & Halsey, 2004; Griffin, 2010). And while the risk of death has dropped significantly, it is still somewhere around 1 in 1,000 cases to 1 in 3,000 cases here in the U.S.
The history of measles mortality in the pre-vaccine era is rather complex; it’s not simply a matter of better food and sanitation. While improvements in overall nutrition, sanitation and housing/overcrowding did contribute to improved health outcomes early in the 20th century, they are not the only factors that played a role in the declining mortality following measles infection. Advances in medicine and healthcare, the use of gamma globulin and other serum products, the advent of antibiotics, improved education and decreases in family size also helped to make measles a less fatal disease. However, it is difficult to quantify the exact degree each of these factors played, since we are dealing with historical data of oftentimes varying quality. I would argue, though, that if I had to choose one intervention that has had the most impact on measles deaths throughout history, I would pick vaccination. After all, if you never get infected with it, you can’t die from it.”December 13, 2018 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #1644335
I do feel bad for the mods having to read through all these posts, I guess I will slow down.December 13, 2018 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1644603
I started reviewing some studies and i have some questions…
Journal of pediatrics vol. 162 No. 2 (from CDC website)
Proposed conclusion: Increasing Exposure to Antibody-Stimulating Proteins and Polysaccharides in Vaccines Is Not Associated with Risk of Autism
Evidence: Normal children, same age/gender as autistic children, not developing autism, despite receiving comparable amount of vaccine exposure – measured according to autistic children. Suggesting that vaccine exposure in those amounts, are not the cause of autism.
Proposed conclusion seemingly not supported by the evidence.
Fact: These children are autistic and the others are normal. So we know that there is an unknown variable here – “unknown variable x”. Question is: does this variable: a) cause autism by itself, b) cause autism in conjunction with a vaccine, or c) cause autism in conjunction with anything else not identified here.
Error: The normal children received that amount of exposure, showing that the exposure itself isn’t the determining cause of autism. But the normal children lack “unknown variable x”, which is why the vaccine exposure didn’t affect them. The autistic children, who have the unknown variable, are becoming autistic as a result of the vaccines.
A. “Unknown variable x” is the full determining factor behind autism. No relation to vaccines.
B. “Unknown variable x” + something else not identified causes autism. No relation to vaccines.
C. “Unknown variable x” + vaccines, together create autism. The normal children got the vaccines, but remained normal because they lack “unknown variable x”.
Provided evidence can support either option. Anything else would be a wild guess, not supported by the evidence.
D. Vaccine exposure is the full cause of autism – has been eliminated.
True conclusion: vaccines aren’t the only and full determining factor behind autism, something else must be at the least a primary determining factor causing autism either: a) alone, b) in conjunction with something else, c)or in conjunction with vaccines. Correlation between vaccines and autism not debunked by this study.
JAMA. 2015;313(15):1534-1540. doi:10.1001/jama.2015.3077
Proposed conclusion: No harmful association between MMR vaccine receipt and ASD
Evidence: Normal children received the MMR in similar exposure amounts to those who developed autism, and still remained normal. Suggesting those MMR exposure amounts don’t cause autism.
Error: The normal children received that amount of MMR exposure, showing that the exposure itself isn’t the determining cause of autism. But the normal children lack “unknown variable x”, which is why the MMR exposure didn’t affect them. The autistic children, who have the unknown variable, are becoming autistic as a result of the MMR.
Same flaw as above.
A. “Unknown variable x” is the full determining factor behind autism. No relation to MMR.
B. “Unknown variable x” + something else not identified causes autism. No relation to MMR.
C. “Unknown variable x” + MMR, together create autism. The normal children got the MMR, but remained normal because they lack “unknown variable x”.
Provided evidence can support either option. Anything else would be a wild guess, not supported by the evidence.
D. MMR exposure is the full cause of autism – has been eliminated.
True conclusion: MMR isn’t the only and full determining factor behind autism, something else must be at the least a primary determining factor causing autism either: a) alone, b) in conjunction with something else, c)or in conjunction with MMR. Correlation between MMR and autism not debunked by this study.
What am I missing here? I did simplify the details, but I don’t believe I omitted anything that will change the conclusion.
The other arising objection is: “process of elimination” by itself is not a valid means of identifying a potential suspect, until a basis for suspicion can be established first. So in your perspective, vaccines are an innocent little puppy getting blamed unfairly. This was expressed earlier as the “avocados” and “green jelly beans” issue. (Not ready yet for this one)December 13, 2018 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #1644617
Calling neurotypicals “normal” to imply that autistic children are abnormal is loaded language, and it is quite offensive.December 13, 2018 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #1644667
Re the JAMA study, not following your concern.
This is what you write.
” The normal children received that amount of MMR exposure, showing that the exposure itself isn’t the determining cause of autism”
This is where you err, it shows no association at all, your implying that there is an association yet just ‘not in itself” when in fact the study proves that there is no association at all.
Furthermore, if you actually read the study as you claim you did, you would notice there are in fact correlations of lower autism associated with those that were vaccinated. But in reality this has nothing to do with vaccines, only that children that have siblings that were diagnosed with autism are rather to be unvaccinated, yet they have a greater chance of being diagnosed with autism.
Another point the study makes, which the anti vaccine people disagree with is that genetics play a roll, that would diminish the argument they make against vaccines.
“As the prevalence of diagnosed ASD increases, so does the number of children who have siblings diagnosed with ASD,”December 13, 2018 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #1644670
RebYidd, I don’t know whether that was meant as satire, but “neurotypical” is just a fancy word for “normal”; that’s what it means. Autists are abnormal, and there’s nothing wrong with saying so.December 14, 2018 12:47 am at 12:47 am #1644674
“This is where you err, it shows no association at all, your implying that there is an association yet just ‘not in itself” when in fact the study proves that there is no association at all. ”
The evidence is that the Neuro-typical children should’ve been autistic, had MMR been the cause for autism.
Laying out the options:
A. MMR causes autism without needing any other factor
B. MMR causes autism, only when another variable is present.
C. Something else causes Autism.
How does the above evidence rule out optionB?December 14, 2018 1:09 am at 1:09 am #1644692
“Typical” and “normal” don’t mean precisely the same thing.
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