Studies on vaccines you might have missed.👨‍🔬💉🚫

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  • #1654796

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    doomsday

    ” I am going to explain Healthy User Bias again to show how it HIDES the HARM of Vaccines!”
    Before y u explain that, lets take it one step at a time

    Youre next line (” the studies are NOT RANDOMIZED ” ) is nonsense as well but lets take it one post at a time.

    first what is “healthy user bias” ?
    Don’t use this study as an example,(since you will get it wrong) just in general terms what is it ?

    Feel free to copy/paste wikipedia It is a short easy to understand entry.

    #1654810

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    BTW doomsday

    The REAL “Healthy user bias” (which in spite of your lack of understanding and misapplication is a real thing)
    Is part of why a vaxxed vs unvaxxed study wouldn’t satisfy you, as I have been explaing earlier.

    If we were to look at vaccinated vs unvaccinated people, then obviously the unvaccinated are people who care less about their and their children’s health. On the other hand the healthier group, that is less likely to develop asthma etc, cares about their health and will vaccinate.

    Thus when it emerges that the vaccinated gropus is as healthy or healthier than the the unvaxxed group.
    A valid complaint on said stduy, would be that of course the vaccinated group is healthier (or appears as healthy) they cared more about their health thats why they vaccinated . THIS is an example of healthy user bias,

    Why would you accept said study?

    #1654885

    doomsday
    Participant

    Wikipedia: The healthy user bias is a bias that can damage the validity of epidemiologic studies testing the efficacy of particular therapies or interventions. Specifically, it is a sampling bias: the kind of subjects that voluntarily enroll in a clinical trial and actually follow the experimental regimen are not representative of the general population. They can be expected, on average, to be healthier

    Healthy User Bias FLAW does apply to the MMR-Autism Study.
    Parents who VOLUNTARILY use Vaccines are MORE LIKELY to have children who are developing Normally.
    Parents who have a Child who is showing SIGNS OF AUTISM are more likely NOT to give the MMR – which
    is given at 12-15 months.
    By 12-15 Months, the child was already INJECTED with 3,675 mcg of ALUMINUM and is showing signs of Vaccine Damage.

    So there may be MORE children with Autism in the PARTIALLY VAXXED who did not get MMR.
    Because the giving of MMR was NOT RANDOM but HEALTHY USERS (normal children) got MMR
    While those already Vaccine INJURED avoided the MMR!

    If there is anyone out there who don’t Worship Vaccines who understands why Healthy User Bias makes
    the CDC Vaccine Safety Studies INVALID, please join in!
    (The ProVaxxers understand, but won’t admit the Truth – EVER!)

    #1654887

    doomsday
    Participant

    Health: The total Vaxxed kids only 1% became Autistic, while the partial Vaxxed kids – 7% became Autistic. If Vaccines caused Autism, it would both be the same percentage or the total Vaxxed kids would be more.

    If it was RANDOM who got MMR, then you would be right.

    BUT – if parents see their child is AUTISTIC at 12-15 Months, they don’t give the MMR.
    It’s NOT RANDOM – get it???
    This causes the No MMR/PARTIALLY Vaxed kids to have a Higher Rate of Autism –
    which HIDES that MMR raises the risk of Autism and INVALIDATES the Study!

    The HEALTHY Kids get MMR and the AUTISTIC Kids DON’T get MMR!
    Which tells you NOTHING about whether or not MMR raises risk of Autism!
    The CDC PURPOSELY designed a FLAWED Study to HIDE that MMR (and other vaccines) Cause Autism!

    If who gets the MMR Shot is NOT Randomized, the study is worthless! (on purpose!)

    #1654889

    doomsday
    Participant

    Ubiquiton: If we were to look at vaccinated vs unvaccinated people, then obviously the unvaccinated are people who care less about their and their children’s health.

    The AntiVaxxers care MORE about their children’s health then Vaxxers.
    They cared enough to RESEARCH and not just follow the sheep obeying Big Government Orders!

    Rich, White and Refusing Vaccinations – The New York Times – a PROvax NewsPaper

    Immunizations: More Education May Not Mean More Vaccination – The New York Times
    Article says the LESS education (didn’t finish HS) – the More likely to follow CDC Vaccine Schedule
    The AntiVaxers are more likely to be COLLEGE EDUCATED.

    Antivaxers are MORE likely to be “Health Nuts” and feed their children only ORGANIC and give
    Vitamins.

    So Anti-Vaxers are MORE concerned about their children’s health then the mindless sheep!

    #1654890

    doomsday
    Participant

    Ubiquiton: A valid complaint on said stduy, would be that of course the vaccinated group is healthier (or appears as healthy) they cared more about their health thats why they vaccinated . THIS is an example of healthy user bias,

    Why would you accept said study?

    Because you’re wrong – antivaxxers care MORE about their children’s health then mindless sheep
    who just blindly follow government orders.
    Antivax Parents cared enough about their children’s health to spend many hours doing RESEARCH!
    Antivax Parents are much more feed their children only Organic, healthy diet.

    So I WOULD accept a Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed Study but Unvaxxed MUST mean 100% Unvaxxed!

    #1654948

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Hemlock is organic.

    #1654978

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Dooms
    “Wikipedia: The healthy user bias i… is a sampling bias: the kind of subjects that voluntarily enroll in a clinical trial and actually follow the experimental regimen are not representative of the general population. They can be expected, on average, to be healthier”

    Yes! you nalied it
    Now before we go on to the MMR study which you seem to have never never even glanced at, lets make sure this point is clear. This is a simple point and as APY helpfully pointed out we are 1300 posts in. Focus on this point with a little effort we can do it!
    Try not to get distracted with irrelevant side distractions like confusing caring “More education” with caring about health, or “organic” with being healthy. These are nonsense and are distractions.
    Set them aside and focus on healthy user bias, as you correctly said it is a “sampling error”
    What this means (again from wikipedia”) “sampling error is incurred when the statistical characteristics of a population are estimated from a subset, or sample, of that population. Since the sample does not include all members of the population, statistics on the sample, such as means and quantiles, generally differ from the characteristics of the entire population, which are known as parameters. For example, if one measures the height of a thousand individuals from a country of one million, the average height of the thousand is typically not the same as the average height of all one million people in the country. Since sampling is typically done to determine the characteristics of a whole population, the difference between the sample and population values is considered an error”

    Or another example if I recruit for my study using the internet, then the sample that I study would have this sample bias, I am automatically excluding those who may not have the internet.

    With me so far?

    Now lets look at the specific sampling error known as “healthy user bias”
    If I look at whether Prostate cancer screenings save lives, A possible flaw is the healthy user bias, those who go to doctors to get screened are more likely to care about their health and live longer

    Or with vaccines (from some anti-vaccine website:)
    “Most vaccine safety studies are observational, and accordingly, do not include researcher control of vaccine exposure. …. A big problem is that vaccinated and unvaccinated people are not matched. Critical differences include:
    1) Healthy people are more likely to choose to be vaccinated. People with chronic diseases or health issues tend to avoid the risk of vaccination.
    2) People that choose vaccination tend to have other “health seeking” behaviors, such as having a better diet and exercising, or getting regular screenings and medical tests.

    These differences create “healthy user bias” (HUB) or the “healthy user effect” in vaccine studies”

    Lets now look at the MMR study,
    Are you with me so far?
    No changing of definitions later, can we agree to “lock in” this definition.

    #1655023

    truthishidden
    Participant

    Ubiquitin,
    don’t bother, even if you come out ahead in this argument, there are many, many more reasons NOT to vaccinate.

    #1655084

    Health
    Participant

    Dooms -“antivaxxers care MORE about their children’s health then mindless sheep”

    If they really cared about their kids, they would Vaxx. It’s one of the best preventions against infectious diseases!

    #1655076

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    truth

    Its no bother. Its fun.
    I dont think I’m going to convince her (or anyone else), make no mistake the pro-disease camp has nothing to do with finding the truth, there is no convincing them, all the studies in the world would not convince them as is clear from this (and other) discussions
    It is purely about looking for more reasons not to vaccinate.

    Yes there are infinite number of reasons , they cause autism, they don’t work, they are pointy they contain mini robots that control our minds, they hurt, they are pointy, and some are even true.
    After all they DO hurt, and of course they DO contain mini mind control robots (oops, have I said too much).

    but that doesn’t mean we have to blatantly lie and make stuff up.
    Plus as I said, I find this discussion enjoyable

    #1655074

    Health
    Participant

    TIH-“don’t bother, even if you come out ahead in this argument, there are many, many more reasons NOT to vaccinate”

    Could you name them? And bring some Real Proof!
    Btw, there are Reasons to Vaxx – to prevent some Infectious diseases.

    #1655101

    doomsday
    Participant

    Ubiquiton: 1) Healthy people are more likely to choose to be vaccinated. People with chronic diseases or health issues tend to avoid the risk of vaccination.
    Doomsday: AGREE

    Ubiquiton: 2) People that choose vaccination tend to have other “health seeking” behaviors, such as having a better diet and exercising, or getting regular screenings and medical tests.

    DISAGREE with better diet/exercise but Agree with More Medical Care, following doctor’s orders.

    Please continue.

    #1655104

    doomsday
    Participant

    Dooms -“antivaxxers care MORE about their children’s health then mindless sheep”

    HealthIf they really cared about their kids, they would Vaxx. It’s one of the best preventions against infectious diseases!

    Vaccines are MORE dangerous then the diseases they prevent.
    Since CDC QUADRUPLED Vaccines around 1990, We have the SICKEST Children in History!
    1:6 children are Learning Disabled
    1:6 children are Allergic (can be Fatal!)
    1:7 couples are INFERTILE (Vaccine inserts say they don’t safety test for infertility)
    1:13 children have Asthma
    1:15 children have ADHD
    1:5 teens had episode of Mental illness
    1:8 children have IBS
    1:50 children have Autism (listed as Adverse Event on Vaccine Inserts)
    1:100 children have Epilepsy (seizures listed as Adverse Event on Vaccine Inserts)
    1:250 children have Tourettes Syndrome
    1:400 children have Diabetes
    1:775 babies DIE of SIDS (listed as Adverse Event on Vaccine Inserts)
    1:1,000 children have Celiac Disease
    1:5,560 children have CANCER (Vaccine Inserts say don’t safety test for Cancer)
    168 Deaths following vaccines reported to VAERS every year.
    ZERO deaths from Measles (in USA).

    Vaccines are MORE DANGEROUS then Measles!

    #1655107

    Health
    Participant

    Dooms -“Parents who have a Child who is showing SIGNS OF AUTISM are more likely NOT to give the MMR – which is given at 12-15 months.
    By 12-15 Months, the child was already INJECTED with 3,675 mcg of ALUMINUM and is showing signs of Vaccine Damage.
    BUT – if parents see their child is AUTISTIC at 12-15 Months, they don’t give the MMR.
    It’s NOT RANDOM – get it???
    This causes the No MMR/PARTIALLY Vaxed kids to have a Higher Rate of Autism –
    which HIDES that MMR raises the risk of Autism and INVALIDATES the Study!
    The HEALTHY Kids get MMR and the AUTISTIC Kids DON’T get MMR”

    It doesn’t INVALIDATE the Study!
    Here’s WHY!
    I’m trying to explain simple logic to you.
    “Parents who have a Child who is showing SIGNS OF AUTISM are more likely NOT to give the MMR – which is given at 12-15 months.”

    I agree with that.

    “By 12-15 Months, the child was already INJECTED with 3,675 mcg of ALUMINUM and is showing signs of Vaccine Damage.”

    Let’s say you’re right.

    “The total Vaxxed kids only 1% became Autistic, while the partial Vaxxed kids – 7% became Autistic.
    If Vaccines caused Autism, it would both be the same percentage or the total Vaxxed kids would be more.”
    Forget about MMR, but let’s discuss Aluminum.
    All kids in this study got Aluminum. So if Al caused Autism , it would both be the same percentage or the total Vaxxed kids would be more!
    Now we can go back to MMR, Al doesn’t cause Autism.
    So what about MMR?
    Since the Vaxxed group got the MMR, the percentage of Autism would be same or more, than the partial vaxxed group or unvaxxed group!

    So again if Vaccines caused Autism, it would both be the same percentage or the total Vaxxed kids would be more.
    This is Why you Need an Education or at least if you don’t have or want one, you should defer to ones that are Knowledgeable!
    All these Anti-vaxxers should be treated like Lev Tahor!

    #1655109

    truthishidden
    Participant

    Health,
    See previously, I brought proof of SIDS, I will try to post others.
    Also, just because diseases are infectious doesn’t mean they’re bad or that we need to eradicate them.
    Hashem created our body to fight off infectious diseases, not so much to get rid of an overload of injected toxins.

    #1655111

    truthishidden
    Participant

    Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons Volume 23 Number 4 Winter 2018
    The above printed a re-analysis of the CDC’s MMR-autism data from the original Destefano e at 2004.
    The data, when properly analyzed, using the CDC’s own study protocol, show a strong, statistically significant relationship between the timing of the first MMR vaccine and autism, specifically in African American males. In addition, a relationship also exists in the timing of the MMR vaccine and those individuals who were diagnosed with autism without mental retardation.

    These relationships call into question the conclusion of the original Destefano et al. 2004 paper which dismissed a connection between the MMR vaccine and autism.

    #1655126

    truthishidden
    Participant

    From an interview with Dr. Stephanie Seneff:
    The glysophate in the MMR allows the glutamate and aluminum to cross the blood – brain barrier which are neurotoxins.
    Neurotoxicity is the cause of autiism, alzheimers, or other dementia, depression, sleep disorders, MS to name a few.

    #1655168

    doomsday
    Participant

    Health All kids in this study got Aluminum. So if Al caused Autism , it would both be the same percentage or the total Vaxxed kids would be more!
    Now we can go back to MMR, Al doesn’t cause Autism.
    So what about MMR?
    Since the Vaxxed group got the MMR, the percentage of Autism would be same or more, than the partial vaxxed group or unvaxxed group!

    Smoking causes cancer – this does not mean ALL smokers get cancer – ONLY 5% of smokers get Lung Cancer! So there is a GENETIC Factor that makes SOME people more at risk for getting Lung Cancer but
    if they DON’T SMOKE – they WONT get cancer.

    Vaccines cause Autism (and MANY other diseases!). “ONLY” 2% of Vaxxed kids get Autism, 1 in 50.
    There is a GENETIC Factor.
    But if they didn’t Vax they would not get Autism. Only 1:10,000 got Autism in 1970.
    It’s a Fact that Siblings of Autistic have a greater risk of Autism.
    But 100% UNVAXED Siblings of Autistic DON’T get Autism.

    There are many other diseases besides Autism caused by Vaccines: SIDS, Cancer, Diabetes, Epilepsy,
    Learning Disabilities, ADHD, Allergies (can be Fatal), Asthma, – So the RISK is more like 1 child in 6! Yikes!

    #1655172

    doomsday
    Participant

    Right on, Truth!
    Multiple Sclerosis is an AUTO-IMMUNE Disease, as is ALS and Parkinson’s.
    All of these Auto-Immune Diseases (along with allergies and asthma – also auto-immune) are Skyrocketing!
    What do Vaccines do? HYPER-STIMULATE the immune system – which could program the immune system
    to attack its own tissues in some individuals.
    Some studies have shown Autism to be an Auto-Immune Disease with immune system attacking brain cells!

    Vaccines are MORE DANGEROUS then the diseases they are supposed to prevent!

    #1655219

    Health
    Participant

    TIH -“Also, just because diseases are infectious doesn’t mean they’re bad or that we need to eradicate them.”

    I guess that Death in Kids is Not a Bad thing!

    From the WHO.Int:
    “Even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available, in 2017, there were 110,000 measles deaths globally, mostly among children under the age of five.”

    #1655221

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    doomsday
    “Please continue.”

    gladly!
    Ok on to the study
    Theri objective is “To report ASD occurrence by MMR vaccine status in a large sample of US children who have older siblings with and without ASD.”

    with me?
    So here is what they did.
    They did a retrospective cohort study. what this means , is they look back (retrospective) at an exposure (vaccines) and then look to see if the disease (autism) developed. They look at 2 groups one exposed to the risk and one that wasnt .

    note these people are already vaccinated , we aren’t randomizing them to the vaccine vs non-vaccine groups. The exposure already occurred long ago, the disease also occured already (as opposed to a prospective cohort study)

    Still with me?
    It gets just a bit more complicated, because this study has a twist it isnt a straight retrospective cohort study) .
    so lets pause and make sure the general design is clear .

    At the same time lets keep the definition of “healthy user bias” tucked in the back of our minds “it is a sampling bias: the kind of subjects that voluntarily enroll in a clinical trial and actually follow the experimental regimen are not representative of the general population. They can be expected, on average, to be healthier”

    So far so good?

    #1655258

    2scents
    Participant

    “From an interview with Dr. Stephanie Seneff:’

    being that you probably did a comprehensive analysis of Dr Seneffs work prior to just pasting what you found on another junk website, you probably already know that Dr Seneffs experience and work is in computer science, yet has decided to start publishing radical opinions in open access platforms.

    What Ari Levaux wrote about her after interviewing her and basically getting her to admit that she is not really ‘studying’ biology.

    “according to many in the science community, a “quack,” meaning a poseur at the business of science, and a practitioner of pseudoscience.

    Since she began publishing papers on biology, in journals considered fringe by the mainstream scientific establishment, Seneff has posited explanations for a host of disorders, and drawn heated objections from experts in almost every field she’s delved into. ”

    I was actually baffled that you picked Dr. Seneff as someone that would further your position, it seems that you base your positions on pseudoscience and not on true science and facts.

    I decided to refrain from further being involved with these discussions, its a very low-level discussion, yourself and Mrs. Doomsday clearly have a comprehension problem, almost every single point that has been raised has been explained in a very clear fashion, yet the most you can do is just repeat the claims and questions time after time.

    You have also managed to slip in, that despite losing an argument or being shown that your position is incorrect, that there are “many other reasons for not vaccinating”,
    1. Only someone that has nothing to stand on would say something like that, as you clearly admit there is a chance that each argument is nonsense and the only thing left would be “many other reasons”.
    2. There is no point of having a rational discussion with you, as it is not the facts that matter, only “many other reasons”.

    #1655267

    Health
    Participant

    TIH -“Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons Volume 23 Number 4 Winter 2018
    The above printed a re-analysis of the CDC’s MMR-autism data from the original Destefano e at 2004.
    These relationships call into question the conclusion of the original Destefano et al. 2004 paper which dismissed a connection between the MMR vaccine and autism.”

    STOP with Anti-vax propaganda!
    All JAPS did was print the copy of Hooker’s paper – which is Not a New thing!
    The CDC Replied to his comments.
    From the CDC:
    “CDC’s study about age at first Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR) vaccination and autism, published in Pediatrics in 2004, included boys and girls from different ethnic groups, including black children. The manuscript presented the results on two sets of children:
    All children who were initially recruited for the study, and
    the subset of children who had a Georgia birth certificate.
    Access to the information on the birth certificates allowed researchers to assess more complete information on race as well as other important characteristics, including possible risk factors for autism such as the child’s birth weight, mother’s age, and education. This information was not available for the children without birth certificates; hence CDC study did not present data by race on black, white, or other race children from the whole study sample. It presented the results on black and white/other race children from the group with birth certificates.
    The study looked at different age groups: children vaccinated by 18 months, 24 months, and 36 months. The findings revealed that vaccination between 24 and 36 months was slightly more common among children with autism, and that association was strongest among children 3-5 years of age. The authors reported this finding was most likely a result of immunization requirements for preschool special education program attendance in children with autism.
    The data CDC collected for this study continue to be available for analysis by others. CDC welcomes analysis by others that can be submitted for peer-review and publication. For more information on how to access this public-use dataset please go to the this [sic] webpage.
    Additional studies and a more recent rigorous review by the Institute of Medicine have found that MMR vaccine does not increase the risk of autism.
    Vaccines protect the health of children in the United States so well that most parents today have never seen first-hand the devastating consequences of diseases now stopped by vaccines.
    However, our 2014 measles count is the highest number since measles was declared eliminated in 2000. We do not want to lose any opportunity to protect all of our children when we have the means to do so.”

    #1655314

    Health
    Participant

    TIH -“The glysophate in the MMR allows the glutamate and aluminum to cross the blood – brain barrier which are neurotoxins.”

    Here we go Again!!!
    Does MMR cause Autism?
    Proof from above:
    “Since the Vaxxed group got the MMR, the percentage of Autism would be same or more, than the partial vaxxed group or unvaxxed group!”

    #1655318

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Conspiracy theory: Doomsday and Health are identical twins separated at birth.

    #1655397

    Health
    Participant

    Dooms -“But 100% UNVAXED Siblings of Autistic DON’T get Autism.”

    Prove that with a Double-blind study.
    One instance that was presented here is Not enough!

    “There are many other diseases besides Autism caused by Vaccines: SIDS, Cancer, Diabetes, Epilepsy,
    Learning Disabilities, ADHD, Allergies (can be Fatal), Asthma”

    You have to prove your theories with Double-blind studies!

    #1655923

    doomsday
    Participant

    Doomsday: “There are many other diseases besides Autism caused by Vaccines: SIDS, Cancer, Diabetes, Epilepsy, Learning Disabilities, ADHD, Allergies (can be Fatal), Asthma”

    Health: You have to prove your theories with Double-blind studies!

    Anti-Vaxers would LOVE a double blind study.
    CDC refuses – says it’s unethical.
    Anti-Vaxers say – so do a RETROSPECTIVE vax vs unvaxxed Study.
    CDC Refuses – NO EXPLANATION!
    V’Hameivin Ya’vin!

    #1655926

    doomsday
    Participant

    Health: At the same time lets keep the definition of “healthy user bias” tucked in the back of our minds “it is a sampling bias: the kind of subjects that voluntarily enroll in a clinical trial and actually follow the experimental regimen are not representative of the general population. They can be expected, on average, to be healthier”

    So far so good?

    The Healthy User Bias in this study is that HEALTHY Normal kids are more likely to USE the MMR
    and Autistic Kids are more likely NOT to get the MMR.

    Agree?

    #1655952

    2scents
    Participant

    Dooms,

    So explain how your theory would impact the study.

    A. The group that recieved the MMR shot, if the MMR increases autism, they should have had a greater rate of autism. The fact that the ratio remains the same shows the MMR isnt a factor.

    B. Are you implying that the autism group was diagnosed with autism prior to receiving the MMR vaccine?

    C. What would be your theory with regards to siblings of autistic children, they are unlikely to be vaccinated (the term unvaccinated is focused on the MMR, yet the same likely applies to all vaccines). This group has a higher autism rate despite having a lower vaccination rate.

    D. The group that did not vaccinate with no siblings that had autism, had a similar rate of autism than those that did vaccinate. If your theory holds water, these children need to be autistic (as this is the factor or bias for not vaccinating), unless the bias is non existent.

    E. You apparently wouldn’t vaccinate your children, would you also fall into the ‘user bias’ group?

    #1655982

    Health
    Participant

    Dooms -“Anti-Vaxers would LOVE a double blind study.
    CDC refuses – says it’s unethical.”

    You misunderstood me. They say it’s unethical to do a vaxxed to unvaxxed study, because you’re denying those kids the vaccine.
    But you could do a study on other diseases besides Autism possibly caused by Vaccines: SIDS, Cancer, Diabetes, Epilepsy, Learning Disabilities, ADHD, Allergies (can be Fatal), Asthma.
    You hold vaccines are more dangerous than the disease that they work against!
    So YOU DO the Study.

    #1656024

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Dooms
    “The Healthy User Bias in this study is that HEALTHY Normal kids are more likely to USE the MMR
    and Autistic Kids are more likely NOT to get the MMR.

    Agree?”

    No, because you’ve got the study backwards.
    Again we are looking if autism develops AFTER mmr.
    Did you even glance at the study?
    Are you reading my posts?

    It seems like you arent “CDC Refuses – NO EXPLANATION!”
    I must have given you 5 different explanations several dozen times
    Lemayseh whats pshat with you?

    #1656198

    doomsday
    Participant

    2cents A. The group that received the MMR shot, if the MMR increases autism, they should have had a greater rate of autism. The fact that the ratio remains the same shows the MMR isnt a factor.

    IF the MMR was RANDOMIZED, the MMR would have shown a greater rate of Autism.
    ALL Children received about 3,675 mcg Aluminum & other toxins at 0-6 months + BEFORE Birth!
    Due to genetics, MOST children can excrete Aluminum and other toxins, but SOME children cannot.
    MMR is given at 12-15 months.
    The Children who appear to be Healthy and Normal get the MMR.
    The Children who are SHOWING SIGNS OF AUTISM do NOT get the MMR.
    This Healthy User Bias causes MORE children to be in the No MMR / PARTIALLY Vaccinated group.
    MMR causes SOME Kids who were healthy at 12-15 Months to get Autism.
    But Healthy User Bias makes the AUTISM Rate to be about the SAME as the No MMR /Partial Vax Group.

    This is not my explanation but what REAL SCIENTISTS have said why vaxed vs vaxed studies are INVALID.

    B. Are you implying that the autism group was diagnosed with autism prior to receiving the MMR vaccine?

    No. Autism is usually diagnosed around age 3. But parents saw SIGNS of AUTISM earlier, so stopped
    vaccinating – this is a very common scenario.

    #1656199

    doomsday
    Participant

    C. What would be your theory with regards to siblings of autistic children, they are unlikely to be vaccinated (the term unvaccinated is focused on the MMR, yet the same likely applies to all vaccines). This group has a higher autism rate despite having a lower vaccination rate.

    The siblings of Autistic Children with Autism were PARTIALLY VACCINATED. The Parents did not give
    MMR because they saw Signs of Autism in the younger children.

    D. The group that did not vaccinate with no siblings that had autism, had a similar rate of autism than those that did vaccinate. If your theory holds water, these children need to be autistic (as this is the factor or bias for not vaccinating), unless the bias is non existent.

    The “group that did not vaccinate…” DID VACCINATE. This is why it is FRAUDULENT for these studies to
    call “No MMR” Children “Unvaccinated” when they ARE Vaccinated!
    Because of Healthy User Bias, Children who showed Signs of Autism at age 12-15 Months did
    not get MMR.
    YOUR Theory doesn’t hold water if who gets the MMR is NOT RANDOMIZED!

    E. You apparently wouldn’t vaccinate your children, would you also fall into the ‘user bias’ group?
    My children were 100% Vaccinated before the dangers of Vaccines became more known.
    One child suffers from allergies and sinus infections.

    #1656200

    doomsday
    Participant

    Health, if you deny Healthy User Bias, why are Clinical Trials ALWAYS RANDOMIZED?

    #1656213

    Health
    Participant

    Dooms -“Health, if you deny Healthy User Bias, why are Clinical Trials ALWAYS RANDOMIZED?”

    I did Not deny anything! There are other posters here that respond to you.
    You probably have more than one SN, I Don’t!

    #1656215

    doomsday
    Participant

    Ubiquiton:Are you reading my posts?
    It seems like you arent “CDC Refuses – NO EXPLANATION!”
    I must have given you 5 different explanations several dozen times
    Lemayseh whats pshat with you?

    Are YOU, Ubiquiton, the CDC???
    I said CDC does not give any explanation for refusing to Retrospective Vax vs Unvaxxed Study!
    OY! Learn Reading Comprehension, Ubiquiton!

    #1656211

    doomsday
    Participant

    Doomsday: “The Healthy User Bias in this study is that HEALTHY Normal kids are more likely to USE the MMR and Autistic Kids are more likely NOT to get the MMR. Agree?”

    Ubiquiton: No, because you’ve got the study backwards. Again we are looking if autism develops AFTER mmr. Did you even glance at the study? Are you reading my posts?

    Yes I read the study and read your posts.
    Are you reading mine? Or just incapable of comprehension?

    YES, we are looking if Autism Develops AFTER MMR – and yes, some children developed Autism AFTER
    getting MMR.
    How do you know if it WAS the MMR and not some other factor?
    You compare the RATE of Autism with children who did NOT get the MMR.

    But in EVERY Clinical Trial, who gets the Tested Ingredient is ALWAYS RANDOM because of Healthy User Bias (and other confounding factors)!
    Since this study was NOT Randomized, there are MORE Children who developed Autism in the
    NO MMR Group /partially Vaxxed because the parents refused MMR when they saw SIGNS OF AUTISM.

    This Healthy User Bias HIDES that MMR INCREASES risk of Autism which would have been apparent
    had the MMR Vaccine been RANDOMIZED!
    And CDC DELIBERATELY uses FLAWED Studies to produce FAKE PROOF of Vaccine Safety!

    #1656226

    doomsday
    Participant

    Ubiquiton: Regarding why CDC won’t do a Retrospective Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed Study
    I must have given you 5 different explanations several dozen times

    Folks, when Someone claims they answered your question, but is EMBARRASSED to write again the
    explanation, you know the explanations are STUPID. Here are Ubiquiton’s “Explanations”
    (and there are NOT five, and it was not repeated dozens of times)

    1. There WERE Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Studies!

    When I point out that this is a LIE – that these were Vaxxed vs Vaxxed Studies, NOT Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed,
    Ubiquiton gets Mad that Antivaxxers won’t accept that Vaxxed Children should be called “Unvaxxed” (because they did not receive ONE Vaccine out of Many).

    2. You won’t accept the results of a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study anyway.

    Another LIE! Because Antivaxxers refuse to accept FLAWED Studies such as Vaxxed vs Vaxxed,
    this is used as “Proof” that Antivaxxers would not accept the results of Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed.

    There is only ONE Study that Antivaxxers have consistently asked for: Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed.
    CDC gives NO Explanation on why they will not make this Study – which is the only study that has
    Scientific Validity. The Real Reason is because a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study would PROVE once and for
    all the Vaccines CAUSE Autism – and MANY OTHER Diseases including Cancer, SIDS and Diabetes!
    Just like the Smoker vs NON Smoker PROVED that smoking causes cancer after HIRED SCIENTISTS DENIED!

    CDC keeps making Vaxxed vs Vaxxed and FRAUDULENTLY calling them Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed
    because a Vaxxed Child did not get ONE vaccine out of Many!
    In these studies it is NOT RANDOMIZED (who stops vaccinating) so the studies are BOGUS!

    #1656232

    doomsday
    Participant

    Health: You hold vaccines are more dangerous than the disease that they work against!
    So YOU DO the Study.

    Health, you are not making any sense.
    How can ANYONE do a randomized double blind study -where half the kids would get a vaccine and
    half would get placebo?
    The AntiVaxxers would not let their children participate because they believe vaccines are too dangerous.
    The ProVaxxers would not let their children participate because they believe being Unvaccinated is too dangerous.

    #1656271

    2scents
    Participant

    “IF the MMR was RANDOMIZED, the MMR would have shown a greater rate of Autism.”

    So you conclude prior to seeing the results?

    The study actually proves the opposite, you cannot accept that since you already concluded otherwise.
    Besides, if these children already show signs of autism, why would the MMR vaccine be withheld, as these parents already know that the vaccine has nothing to do with their childs condition.

    Your not making sense.

    “No. Autism is usually diagnosed around age 3. But parents saw SIGNS of AUTISM earlier, so stopped
    vaccinating – this is a very common scenario.”

    I feel that you are confusing your position, autism is caused by vaccines, yet those that did not get vaccinated and were diagnosed with autism, are still unlikely to vaccinate, why?
    Also, are you now saying that all autism cases showed signs prior to receiving the MMR shot, it seems that is what you are implying, this is actually in line with what the experts have to say, yet they use this as a claim to show that autism was present in these children prior to the MMR Vaccine, only that it was not yet prevalent which is why they have not been officially diagnosed.

    I applaud you for finally getting it right. That most cases of autism are not associated with the MMR vaccine, despite what the fact that these parents are now scared to vaccinate their other children.

    (these ‘other children’ btw, despite having lower vaccination rates, even though they were never diagnosed with autism, so for sure do not have the signs of autism that you referenced, have higher rates of autism, not lower.

    #1656275

    2scents
    Participant

    Dooms,

    “The siblings of Autistic Children with Autism were PARTIALLY VACCINATED. The Parents did not give
    MMR because they saw Signs of Autism in the younger children.”

    Explain your theory, is that because these parents are not blaming all the vaccines for autism, why would they only be blaming the MMR vaccine, this is not in line with your position.

    You used these parents as evidence not to vaccinate, yet when it works for you, you claim that these parents are only blaming the MMR vaccine.

    I guess its your usual tactic, make up facts as long as it works with your already made up decision.

    #1656306

    doomsday
    Participant

    2scents: “IF the MMR was RANDOMIZED, the MMR would have shown a greater rate of Autism.”
    So you conclude prior to seeing the results?

    The Study, if you take into account Healthy User Bias, actually shows MMR raises risk of Autism.
    There should have been significantly MORE autism in the No MMR /Partially Vaccinated group then the MMR group because they did not get MMR because they were already showing SIGNS OF AUTISM.
    Yet the Autism Rate was the SAME.
    Which means that MMR RAISED the Autism Rate to Equal that of a Group that had a high percentage of Children who already showed SIGNS OF AUTISM!

    #1656312

    doomsday
    Participant

    2cents: Besides, if these children already show signs of autism, why would the MMR vaccine be withheld, as these parents already know that the vaccine has nothing to do with their childs condition.

    Because the Parents feel that the Multiple Vaccines given BEFORE Birth, AT Birth, and as NEWBORNS
    caused their child’s Autism! So why would they continue giving MORE Vaccines? To make their
    child’s Autism WORSE??? Autism is a SPECTRUM Disorder – there are degrees to how severely effected
    a child is.
    If you believe Vaccines caused your child’s Autism you don’t CONTINUE to give MORE Vaccines, Genius!

    #1656328

    doomsday
    Participant

    2Cents, answer this: Why in EVERY clinical study testing whether a product is safe, is it all RANDOMIZED who gets the product and who does not?

    #1656329

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    dooms

    “Folks, when Someone claims they answered your question, but is EMBARRASSED to write again the
    explanation,”

    not embarrassed, I just (mistakingly ) assumed you read my posts. copying and pasting the same thing over and over isnt helpful, and frankly makes you seem silly.
    but if you insist on my repeating myself sure thing here we go (though forgive me I wont just copy and paste my prior posts, that seems to silly to me)

    (and there are NOT five, and it was not repeated dozens of times)
    There are 5, and I ditn count them but they were certainly reepated over 20 times by variosu posters

    1. There WERE Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Studies!
    “Ubiquiton gets Mad that Antivaxxers won’t accept that Vaxxed Children should be called “Unvaxxed” (because they did not receive ONE Vaccine out of Many).”

    I dont get mad, I laugh it is a silly distinction that you (ie the pro-disease camp) made up that has zero basis in reality
    If I want to prove an apple a day keeps the doctor away, it doesn’t matter if both groups are also eating oranges. (do you really not recall my using this very example several times)

    “2. You won’t accept the results of a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study anyway.
    Another LIE! Because Antivaxxers refuse to accept FLAWED Studies such as Vaxxed vs Vaxxed,”

    you make up flaws when they dont exist
    see #1 above.

    #3 all studies have flaws If you dont accept the MMR study for made up flaws a real vaccine vs non-vaccine study would have more flaws.
    Take healthy user effect which yoiu misapply to the MMR study.
    In someone who never vaccinated, it would apply. In order for someone not to vaccinate they must be either very brain damaged, not care about their kids health /not see doctors regularly. Both of which are MORE likely to be associated with diseases than the actual vaccine.
    (even if you disagree with the specific premise, the flaw is still there)
    you conclude with “In these studies it is NOT RANDOMIZED (who stops vaccinating) so the studies are BOGUS!”
    Well any ethical vaxxed vs fully unvaxxed study wouldnt be randomized either. why would you accept that but not this?

    “”CDC gives NO Explanation on why they will not make this Study”

    Which brings us to #4 . why should they do one?
    theres a guy on my street corner who insist the moon is made of green cheese . NASA wont investigate why?
    (Granted, it isnt the best comparison because there is so much more data testifying to the safety of vacciens than the composition of the moon, but the idea still holds)

    And finally #5 See truth is hidden’s comment “there are many, many more reasons NOT to vaccinate.”

    And this point most people who dont vaccinate isnt based on any real concerns it is based on “many many more reasons” No study in the world , no matter how well designed and how few flaws which as mentioned is impossible) can ever overcome “many many more reasons”

    (I do concede that arguably some of these reasons overlap, though I do think each stands alone, if you want to quibble that there arent actually 5 reasons but rather they are 2 I accept that)

    #1656317

    doomsday
    Participant

    2Scents: I feel that you are confusing your position, autism is caused by vaccines, yet those that did not get vaccinated and were diagnosed with autism, are still unlikely to vaccinate, why?

    The Children who got Autism but No MMR WERE VACCINATED!
    The Children who got Autism but No MMR WERE VACCINATED!
    The Children who got Autism but No MMR WERE VACCINATED!
    The Children who got Autism but No MMR WERE VACCINATED!
    The Children who got Autism but No MMR WERE VACCINATED!

    Folks, See how the ProVaxxers keep LYING that the children who did not get MMR are UNVACCINATED?
    Is MMR the ONLY Vaccine? What about the FLU Vaccine and Dtap given BEFORE BIRTH?
    What about Hepatitus B Vaccine given AT BIRTH?
    What about DTAP and POLIO given at 2 months, 4 months and 6 months?

    No matter how many times I say this, the Pro Vaxxers still keep LYING that the NO MMR GROUP
    is UNVACCINATED! NO – they received Vaccines. They got 3,675 MCG OF ALUMINUM + Other Toxins!

    #1656319

    doomsday
    Participant

    2Scents: Explain your theory, is that because these parents are not blaming all the vaccines for autism, why would they only be blaming the MMR vaccine, this is not in line with your position.

    WHO said that the parents ONLY blame the MMR Vaccine for Autism?
    ALL Vaccines – including MMR – Raise the Risk of Autism!
    If their child was already showing SIGNS OF AUTISM because of the OTHER Vaccines s/he got,
    why on earth would the Parents give their child MORE VACCINES???? (Like the MMR)

    #1656336

    doomsday
    Participant

    Ubiquiton, When a NEW Drug is tested, do they test for safety using another DRUG as a Placebo?
    Or do they use a Sugar Pill or Saline Solution?

    Answer: They use a sugar pill/saline solution as placebo.
    They Test: DRUG VS NO DRUG

    NOT: DRUG VS DRUG

    Yet when it comes to Vaccines ALL THE RULES ARE CHANGED!

    They test Vaxxed vs Vaxxed and REFUSE to do a study Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed!

    Folks, you don’t need to be a Scientist to see the FRAUD!

    #1656342

    2scents
    Participant

    Dooms,

    “Which means that MMR RAISED the Autism Rate to Equal that of a Group that had a high percentage of Children who already showed SIGNS OF AUTISM!”

    Not sure how you arrive at this conclusion. First off, it groups children that were not vaccinated, and their siblings were diagnosed with autism.
    Explain how this group is divided based on ‘healthy user bias’, the selection has nothing to do with calling being diagnosed with autism or with the MMR.
    Another group is selected based on having the MMR, yet these children do not have siblings that were diagnosed with autism.

    Now in a simplistic fashion, explain how come the group that had no siblings with autism actually had a lower rate of autism than those that were not vaccinated, yet had a sibling with autism.

    In the past, you made a bold claim that autism has nothing to do with genetics, so explain how come the group that did not vaccinate, only because they had a sibling that was diagnosed with autism, actually had a higher rate of autism.

    you also refused to acknowledge that adding autism to the DSM in the 1980s actually increased the rate of diagnosed autism a few thousand percents, you also refuse to acknowledge that all the additions to the ASD criteria are clearly associated with increases to ASD diagnosis.

    You also selectively did not acknowledge what I wrote about the fact that you now acknowledge that most autistic children actually have signs (or how you wrote it, SIGNS) of the disorder prior to the diagnosis and prior to the receiving the MMR shot, which is why they have withheld the vaccination.

    You only came up with this, as this was the only explanation for healthy bias claim you made, you cannot use all the arguments to further your agenda when they actually contradict each other.

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