The final word on Moshiach from the meisim (hopefully!)

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  • #2206244
    anyPotatoKugelLeft
    Participant

    The topic of Moshiach from the dead is a reccuring topic here in the CR.
    No less than 3 threads have been created this week alone.

    I have come across a sefer I bought in Lakewood called Kuntres Shmoi Shel Moshiach. It is also a free download and available on Amazon.

    The sefer is an in-depth analysis on the topic of Moshiach from the dead as discussed in the Gemara Bavli, Yerushalmi and Medrash.

    The mechaber did a great job presenting the topic in a dispassionate and scholarly way. He deservedly received haskamos from several Rebonim including Rabbi Zev Leff Shli’ta.

    The mechaber proves that Moshiach could come from the dead for as long as the candidate spoken of is considered fit to be Moshiach. He also and most importantly proves Rambam did not rule out Moshiach coming from the dead.

    As the title says hopefully this will be the final word on this topic and we should all wait and see Moshiach speedily in our days.

    Here is a copy and paste from his Amazon page. Kuntres Shmoi Shel Moshiach, has received approbations from prominent Rabbis from around the World. This English abridged version of Kuntres Shmoi Shel Moshiach, provides an in depth analysis of what our Sages discussed about the possibility of Moshiach coming from the maisim.

    It appears to have been a common belief among our Sages, that Moshiach from the maisim is a veritable possibility. Most importantly as shown in the Kuntres, this is a possibility that the Rambam did not rule out Halachically.

    As shown in the Kuntres, whole passages in the Talmud Bavli, Talmud Yerushalmi and Midrash, all discuss the possibility of Moshiach coming from both the living or the maisim, and appear to record precedents of students continuing to state their belief that their Rav is “fit to be Moshiach” even after their passing.

    As demonstrated in the Kuntres, according to our Sages, Moshiach can be any righteous Tzadik, who is scrupulous in his Torah learning, meticulous in his performance of Mitzvos, who is of Davidic lineage, and is either alive or mais. The Kuntres also explicitly explains as to why Judaism rejects False Messiah’s, and quotes from the Rambam, Ramban and references Sandedrin 107b, to explain as to why Judaism summarily rejects Chistianity and its founder. The Jewish concept of “fit to be Moshiach” is elucidated at length.

    The Kuntres is written in a way of “L’Hagdil Torah U’La’Hadira”. The target audience of this Kuntres is all those who love Hashem, love His Torah, and love their fellow Jew. Its goal is to shine a light on this topic, in order to help increase peace and unity within our holy nation.

    #2206276
    RightJew
    Participant

    The persons promoting these grotesque “Meshichist” Torah distortions should be viewed as idolatrous missionaries attempting to convert Jews to a different religion than Judaism.

    The Meshichist arguments are no different than the deceptive arguments of Xtian missionaries.

    There is NO place in authentic Torah beliefs for a Moshiach who appears, begins his mission, then he dies and returns later to finish his mission.

    Those interested in such a “Moshiach” should consult the NT.

    Such beliefs are a new anti-Torah religion that makes a mockery of the words of the Jewish prophets.

    #2206279
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I hope you don’t seriously believe this will be the “FINAL WORD” in the CR on the subject unless in real life you are one of those guys running up and down Eastern Parkway with a yellow flag.

    #2206286

    Don’t take the bait, guys. We don’t need another thread for this.

    #2206287
    Avi K
    Participant

    Are the haskamot really haskamot or just berachot? In any case, I do not interpret aggadatot literally (see Rambam’s intreduction to Perek Chelek). It is very dangerous to apply this practically. This is how a certain other religion started.

    #2206289
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Rabbi zev leff is not a gadol beyisroel, and he’d be the first to say so. Edited That’s the best guess i have. He’s the only rav who i recognize on the haskamos.

    “Litvishe rabbonim” – why doesn’t the esteemed mechaber go to any member of the moetzes, or rav elya ber, and ask them if they agree with his theories?

    The kuntres is full of weird diyukim, selective source quotations, assumptions, and forceful language, with a sweeping historical narrative about “what chazal thought” as if he could access their minds.

    He does not bring a single source outside of the plain text of gemara in hachelek which says clearly that moshiach can be from the meisim. He totally butchers rashi’s 2nd and preferred pshat, and makes a pretzel out of an accompanying yad ramah which makes a similar statement to rashi.

    He makes it out to be that the very idea the ramban and rambam vociferously deny is not only a valid idea , but mainstream judaism.

    Funny how he can’t manage to find a single source aside from an abarbanel irredeemably (pardon the pun) twisted out of context, in the rishonim and achronim who discuss bias hamoshiach, which corroborates this contention. If this idea was normal, it would be mentioned casually in the writings of the maharal, ramchal, Ben ish chai, rav yaakov emden, yaaros dvash, drashos haran, ramban shaar hagemul, rambam in yad, or the myriad sifrei chasidus that talk about what moshiach does.

    It’s chasing phantoms. He’s clearly biased and a messianic Lubavitcher attempting to normalize his religion. No different in theory from messianic Christians who marshal sources such as a talmid of the ramchal, the ramad valle, who says that yushke was the sod of moshiach ben yosef, but was shmadded , went off, etc…now would anyone say that that’s normative judaism? It’s not! It’s assur for us to have such an opinion about yushke. It’s a daas yochid, we ignore it and move on.

    #2206301
    Emunas1
    Participant

    Anyone who argued that the rambam doesn’t rule out having moshiach be a dead person can’t read, and is most certainly not dispassionate. The reason he says killed as opposed to died is because he was referring specifically to yoshka.

    #2206342
    Lemayseh
    Participant

    Important alert: People should be aware that this is yet another Chabad scam.

    The book/let is from Chabad. However, to obscure that, and fool unknowing readers, the poster writes “I have come across a sefer I bought in Lakewood”. Some people, seeing the word Lakewood, might assume that it is Litvish-Yeshivish (even though there are many Chasidim in Lakewood today). But it is not from such an author.

    “He deservedly received haskamos from several Rebonim including Rabbi Zev Leff Shli’ta.”

    Sometimes Lubavitchers approaches general rabbonim that are not schooled in their wiles and deceptive tactics, and try to meet with them and get endorsements from them. And sometimes the targets may even fall for it, especially after Chabad flatters them. But don’t be fooled. They are just using them for their nefarious propaganda purposes.

    #2206361
    Adam Neira
    Participant

    As other commenters have pointed out, “anyPotatoKugelLeft” is a Mesichist Lubavitch who is promoting a so called “authoritative” and independent text created and amplified by his sect on whether Moshiach can come from the dead.

    edited

    שַׁבָּת שָׁלוֹם‎

    Adam Neira, Paris, France.
    World Peace 2050
    Founded April 2000 in Melbourne, Australia

    #2206376
    AhavasTzion
    Participant

    Changing your screen name to support your own posts is called sock puppeting.

    #2206382
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Speaking of final word, I never did hear a solid pshat on why the Gemara picked Daniel of all great people of all time.

    Some suggestions: Due to his equivalence to Noach and Iyov, that he can survive on his own merits; we find him more than others being very concerned about the Geula, and his many prophecies in this regard; he is a quasi-Navi of Davidic lineage, although not the only one; there is no clear reference to his death, which might suggest a suspension of life waiting to be continued, although he is not unique in this regard; we are told by Mekubalim that his Nevua was of higher origin but a lower plane than all Neviim.

    #2206407
    midwesterner
    Participant

    FWIW, I know Rav Zev Leff and have conversed with him on the subject of Chabad as well as many other topics. There is NO WAY in the world, in a million years, that he has any belief that RMMS ZL is, was, or will ever be Moshiach.

    #2206449
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    The final word is this:

    A subset of Chabad Rabbonim are the only talmidei chachamim alive today who say that it’s possible for Moshiach to be a resurrected dead person. Literally every other frum Rov and Talmid Chacham says it’s not possible, and many say that it’s apikorsus to say so.

    So that’s the final word. If you’re a follower of one of those Chabad Rabbis, gezunteh heit. Go and believe whatever you want to believe. But have in mind that the entire rest of the frum world looks at you like we look at Conservative Jews: Heart in the right place, but believes in things outside of Yiddishkeit.

    #2206450

    Why don’t people listen to me?

    #2206469
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    For all the comparisons to Christianity, caring too much about the identity of Moshiach is much more a Christian thing than having the wrong person.

    Calling a wrong identity Apikursus means that you take the identity way too serious.

    #2206602
    Yechi Hamelech
    Participant

    Gadolhadorah
    I’ve noticed over the last several years, you still haven’t abandoned the “guys running up and down eastern Parkway with yellow flags” expression; it gets cliche after a few times….

    #2206687

    “the “guys running up and down eastern Parkway with yellow flags” expression”

    We should start an indie rock band with this name.

    #2206742
    anyPotatoKugelLeft
    Participant


    @avi
    k not all agados are non literal. Please see Radvaz to Rambam Hilchos melachim perek 11 halacha alef stating Rambam poskened here by using agados and medrahsim same for halacha 3 and 4 which talk about chezkas Moshiach and vadei Moshiach.

    Ie as shown in Kuntres Shmoi Shel Moshiach Rashi, Yad Ramah, maharsha and others all take the Gemara literally that Moshiach can come from the dead.

    Just because that’s a fact does not make it dangerous or have any baring on false messiah’s being sheker…

    #2206743
    anyPotatoKugelLeft
    Participant

    @rightjew your vitriolic response lacks any toichen ie sources other than hot air.

    Clearly you have not read thar sefer.

    Chabad in essence is saying the same thing as dbei rebbi shiloi, Yanai and chanina…

    Someone that is fit to be Moshiach or even a bchezkas Moshiach as explained in the introduction to that sefer hasn’t even begun to fulfill the “Messianic mission” the messianic mission as told by chazal neviyim and Rambam is to build the bais hamikdosh and kibutz galios etc. A campaign to publicize Moshiach’s coming is immanent is in no way shape or form considered a messianic mission. Unless your rabbi is a crack pot professor….

    Perhaps actually read the book and the impressive haskamos then comment

    #2206767
    741
    Participant

    (Verse 1)
    We go bonkers on Eastern Parkway, a hilarious parade,
    With our yellow flags, causing laughter and escapade,
    Our feet stumbling on the pavement, in comedic fashion,
    A spectacle of silliness, bringing joy and satisfaction.

    (Chorus)
    Oh, we’re running with our yellow flags, a riotous crew,
    Down Eastern Parkway, making everyone chuckle and coo,
    Our energy radiates, with smiles unfurled,
    As we run with whimsy, lighting up the world.

    (Verse 2)
    With every goofy stride, we stumble and trip,
    Yellow flags flapping, in a comical quip,
    Symbols of lightheartedness, a delightful sight,
    Chasing laughter’s echoes along the Parkway’s might.

    (Chorus)
    Oh, we’re running with our yellow flags, a riotous crew,
    Down Eastern Parkway, making everyone chuckle and coo,
    Our energy radiates, with smiles unfurled,
    As we run with whimsy, lighting up the world.

    (Bridge)
    We run as a merry troupe, fueled by laughter’s zest,
    Through giggles and guffaws, we’re eternally blessed,
    Embracing the rhythm of our mischievous hearts,
    Our bond unbreakable, a humorous work of art.

    (Verse 3)
    Eastern Parkway echoes with our joyful sound,
    We’re a carnival of laughter, making spirits rebound,
    Our yellow flags symbolize jest and delight,
    A testament to merriment, shining oh-so-bright.

    (Chorus)
    Oh, we’re running with our yellow flags, a riotous crew,
    Down Eastern Parkway, making everyone chuckle and coo,
    Our energy radiates, with smiles unfurled,
    As we run with whimsy, lighting up the world.

    (Outro)
    So let’s celebrate the laughter, this uproarious spree,
    On Eastern Parkway, we run, carefree and confefe,
    With our yellow flags and comedy unfurled,
    We spread laughter’s magic, lighting up the world.

    Written by “ guys running up and down eastern parkway with yellow flags”.
    The band.

    #2206765
    anyPotatoKugelLeft
    Participant

    @Emunas1 interesting way of understanding Rambam. And if Rambam would have said died instead of killed that would not negate yoshke?

    How about Rambam says someone from bais dovid diligently learning Torah and doing mitzvahs etc. Surely that negates yoshke who chazal Rambam and rambaN state was never fit to be Moshiach even while alive?!?

    Furthermore Rambam goes on to explicitly refer to Yoshke stating he was vulgar etc and killed by bais din….

    You are very mistaken with your understanding of killed vs died…

    In any event Rambam says those words on a bchezkas Moshiach only and states he loses his chazaka. Yoshke was never bchezkas Moshiach rachmana Litzlan…

    #2206776
    RSo
    Participant

    anyPotatoKugel: “Chabad in essence is saying the same thing as dbei rebbi shiloi, Yanai and chanina…”

    As pointed out in the past many times, Rashi there DOES NOT say that dbei R Shilo and the others were saying their Rebbes were Mashiach. Rashi says they were darshening their names.

    Furthermore, even if they would have been saying that their Rebbes were Mashiach, who said that their Rebbes were not still alive when they said so?

    But let’s disregard the above for the moment and deal with the statement as it was made.

    The difference is that dbei R Shilo and the others were Amoraim and were entitled to say that. We believe that they weighed all the facts dispassionately and came to those concllusions because they did not have any hidden agenda. Chabad chassidim are not Amoraim, they are not dipassionate about it, and they have a not-so-hidden agenda.

    Would you say that just as a number of Amoraim discuss what the times of Mashiach will be like, Chabad chassidim can decide that 770 will be Mashiach’s home?

    Oops. I forgot. They already did decide that with the childish gematria that Beis Mashiach is equivalent to 770. Sorry about that.

    #2206848
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Guys with yellow flags on Eastern Parkway is my long-standing surrogate terminology for passionate moishichists screaming crazy stuff in the vicinity of 770. It IS meant to be cliche….

    #2206867
    yankel berel
    Participant

    Habad are really Nice guys .
    But it is totally ridiculous .
    Such a Pity.

    #2206915
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    QUESTION: How do we Jews BENEFIT from a dead moshiach?

    ANSWER: WE DON’T!
    A dead moshiach cannot bring all Jews back to the Derech HaTorah.
    A dead moshiach cannot bring all Jews back to Eretz HaKodesh.
    A dead moshiach cannot defeat the enemies of our people.
    A dead moshiach cannot rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem.
    A dead moshiach does NOT BENEFIT Jews in any way!

    #2206932
    anyPotatoKugelLeft
    Participant

    @RSo clearly you have not read the sefer. As pointed out in the sefer many mefarshim including Rashi hold they are calling their Rav “Moshiach” ie fit to be Moshiach as quoted in the sefer. Rashi also holds they are calling their Rav Raui Lehyos Moshiach. As is seen clearly from Rashi d’h Menachem: (says Rashi) Ben Chizkiya. Once Rashi shows his girsa just said Menachem so he then states it’s a real human being with a father called Chizkiya. We see he holds not just names and attributes but rather they’re pointing a finger and saying he is fit to be Moshiach.

    Furthermore it’s well known (or rather known to those who are into the sugia) many acharonim quote this Gemara to hint they are fit to be Moshiach such as Shachna Shmoi and Chaim Shmoi.

    Also in yerushalmi and Medrash when it says if Moshiach is from the dead Dovid shmei all the mefarshim state it means dovid HaMelech himself. Ie not just names and attributes. Also the mefarshim which do say names and attributes such as maharsha, look closely and you will see he isn’t coming to negate the poshut pshat that they are calling their Rav Moshiach. Rather he gives a deeper pshat too that they also mean names and attributes. This is understood by the fact he brings different pasukim than the Gemara and also he is explicit about Menachem Ben Chizkiya is “Moshiach” see there for yourself. The maharal that says names and attributes isn’t coming to argue with the poshut pshat rather as is his derech he explains the Gemara al pi drash. Etc.

    So in essence as I said Lubavitch is saying the same as the Gemara states about the yeshivas of rebbi shiloi Yanai and chanina….

    Gemara is where we learn how to act as Jews. So Lubavitch and all yidden can learn and do the same as the amorayim. As did Reb shachna the rebbi and father in law of the rama and Chaim Shmoi the Ohr hachaim….

    These points are exactly what makes Kuntres Shmoi Shel Moshiach such an eye opener…

    Sorry about that.

    #2206933
    anyPotatoKugelLeft
    Participant

    @SQUARE_ROOT as explained in the sefer the Gemara Bavli Yerushalmi and Medrash say Moshiach can come from the living or dead.

    As explained in Kuntres Shmoi Shel Moshiach they are all talking about Raui Lehyos Moshiach. Fit to be Moshiach.

    No one is the Moshiach ie Ultimate Redeemer/ Goel Tzedek until after they build the bais hamikdosh and kibutz galios etc.

    As quoted in the sefer Rambam holds that Hashem can make a Techiya Pratis before Moshiach comes.

    Poshut pshat of Moshiach from the dead. Is he will experience an individual resurrection then fulfill all the messianic prophecies/ the messianic mission etc.

    Until that happens do one is the actual Moshiach b’vadei. At most you can be bchezkas Moshiach. As explained in the sefer. I think you would do well to read it.

    Lubavitch as all yidden are awaiting the Geula.

    Then we will all benefit. Until that happens we can all benefit from ahavas yisroel and achdus yisroel.

    #2206934
    anyPotatoKugelLeft
    Participant

    @AviraDeArah Can you be specific. You have written a long winded vitriolic comment but I didn’t see any sources or specific quotes from his book that you claim you have actually read. Hot air is not a source. I am wondering if you are attempting to spread baseless lies, rhetoric and propaganda Al a the misnagidim against the baal Shem Tov….

    In short you have no toichen in your comment.
    Please be specific.

    #2206935
    anyPotatoKugelLeft
    Participant

    @RSo here are some mkoros the mechaber sent to me via his website. Feel free to contact him yourself too he is responsive.

    Calling someone Moshiach:

    בס”ד

    בשו”ת הריב”ש כותב על רבו הר”ן “ילמדנו רבנו רוח אפנו משיח צדקנו” (שם סי’ תע”ח). “תמלוך ותנשא על כסא ה’ למלך על כל ישראל” (שם סימן שפ”ח). ועוד.

    ובס’ נתיבות עולם להמהר”ל מפראג, ח”ב ע’ פג ואילך, (נתיב הלשון פ”ט), נדפס מכתב מתלמיד המהר”ל אל רבו, ובתוך הדברים כותב “מלאך ה’ בתוכנו, ישכון כבוד בארצנו, משיח צדקנו, בראשנו מלכנו, מלך יהודה, ראהו וישמחו במלכותו אדון כל הארץ יקרא, הגאון המופלא מוהר”ר יהודה ליווא יחי אדוננו לעולם וכסאו כשמש יהלום יכין נצח … כביר ונאור, רוח אפנו, משיח צדקנו, יחיד בדורנו, עין הארץ, אליך עיני ישראל ישברון לאמר יהוד”ה יעלה בתחילה” עיי”ש בארוכה. (ולהעיר שהספר הזה ביחד עם המכתב נדפס ע”י המהר”ל בעצמו, בשנת שנ”ו).

    ובס’ שדה צופים על מס’ מכות ע’ ז, כותב בשם הרה”צ מקלויזנבורג “והרה”צ בעל דברי יציב זצ”ל אמר פעם בשיעוריו למס’ מכות, דמה שהביאו בעלי התוס’ כמה פעמים מפי מורו וחתם בר”ת משי”ח, מורי שיחי’, “כן נראה למשי”ח”, הכוונה לפי דברי הגמ’ דסנהדרין (צח ע”ב) דאיירי בשמו של משיח דבי ר’ שילה אמרי שילה שמו כו’, רואים אנו שהתלמידים האמינו כל כך בגדולת רבם עד שמצאו רמזים בתורה שרבם הוא משיח ה’, שלא נברא העולם אלא בשבילו כמ”ש ר’ יוחנן שם. ולכן חתמו בעלי התו’ תורת רבם בר”ת משי”ח להורות אמונתם שרבם ה”ה משיח ה'”.

    ובהגהות שי למורה (להגאון בעל שואל ומשיב) על בית שמואל שמות גיטין אנשים אות ש’, כותב “ואני שמעתי שנמצא בקראקא ש”ס שהגיה הגאון מ’ שכנא ז”ל בפרק חלק בשמות של משיח שהגיה אני אומר שכנא שמו שנאמר לשכנו תדרשו”. ועד”ז בס’ ברכת המים – סדר הגט למוהר”ר מיכל ר’ יוזפש (דפוס ירושלים תשמ”ג ע’ רמ”ה) כותב “וגם שמעתי דכשלמד הגאון הנזכר בהגדה דפ’ חלק שנחלקו שם בשמו של משיח וכל א’ מביא סמך מן המקרא אמר הגאון אילו הייתי שם הייתי אומר שכנו שמה שנאמר לשכנו תדרשו וגו'”.
    ובפי’ האור החיים הק’ על פרשת ראה טו, ז, כותב “משיח ה’ שמו חיים”. וידוע הסיפור עם המדפיס בשם “אשר” שהדפיס את האור החיים הק’ (דפוס שקלאוו תשמ”א) והשמיט את המילים האלו מהדפוס מפני שהאור החיים הק’ כיוון על עצמו, והראה לו הרה”צ ר’ פינחס מקוריץ איך שבפרשת נשא (ה, כח), בפי’ האור החיים הק’ “בין מאיש זה בין משאר” הדפיס “בין מאשר”. ואמר לו “ראה חותמך”. (ס’ דבר יום ביומו (קנולר) י’ אלול. צילום מהעמודים הנ”ל נדפסו בקובץ שפתי צדיקים, גליון ד’, (ירושלים תשנ”ב), ע’ צב-צג). וראה גם עטורי חיים (על האור החיים הק’) ע’ תמט.

    וראה גם רד”ק על תהלים פט, מח “בכל דור ודור יתאוה מי שהוא מזרע דוד שתהי’ בימיו הישועה ויהי’ הוא המלך המשיח”.

    וכן מצינו במשך הדורות שהיו כמה גדולי ישראל שאמרו עליהם (או שהם אמרו על עצמם) שהם ראויים להיות משיח (או משיח בן יוסף), כמבואר בספרים דלהלן:

    שער הגלגולים הקדמה ל”ו הגה”ה ב’ (שבאם הי’ הדור זוכה, הי’ ר’ חיים ויטאל משיח בן יוסף), שבחי ר’ חיים ויטאל (בתחילתו, שנת ה’של”א); שער הספר לקוטי שושנים (הדפוס הישן) לר’ שמשון מאוסטרופוליא. דברי אמת (להחוזה מלובלין) פ’ ויצא ד”ה ויזכור; תולדות יצחק (לר’ יצחק כהנא, ירושלים תרמ”ד) ע’ קמא, אודות הגר”א; ס’ דגלי אהבה ח”ג ע’ תתקנ, על רבי עמנואל חי ריקי בעל המשנת חסידים; ס’ ספרא רבה דישראל ע’ קמ”ב משמי’ דהחת”ס על תלמידו ר’ משה קאנישא; רבותינו (וולף) ע’ קיג (שר’ איסר זלמן מלצר אמר שאם יאמרו לי שהחזון איש הוא המשיח, אאמין. ע”ש); ויקהל שלמה (רפפורט), ז, א; בנין שלמה (לנגרמן), לקוטים תלפיות ערך אש (אות לא), אודות הרמב”ם בדורו; מאמר מדרכי (וינגורה) ע’ 6-7, 17. תורת מהרש”ל ע’ קמט ואילך. רמתים צופים על תנא דבי אליהו, מהודרה החדשה ע’ תע ואילך (על הרה”ק ר’ שלמה מלענטשע); רזא דעובדא ח”ב ע’ ז. בית ישראל (קובץ אמרות מהרה”צ מרוזין, נכתב ע”י ר’ ראובן ז”ק) ע’ יד. נר ישראל (רוזין) ח”ד ע’ קיד. שם ח”ה ע’ סא, צב, רכח. תפארת ישראל (רוזין) קובץ יא ע’ 42 ואילך. שם קובץ כ’ ע’ 19. כתבי חסידים ראשונים לבית רוזין ע’ פג, פו. אבל מצרים ח”א ע’ ט, ב (“ידוע אשר רובא דרובא מצדיקי וגאוני הדור חשבו על זקינו הצדיק סבא קדישא האדמו”ר קדוש ישראל מרוזין זצ”ל שהוא יהי’ המשיח לישראל”). גנזי ישראל (טשורטקוב) הוצאת תשע”ד ח”ב, סדר קדשים ע’ 26 ואילך. ושם ע’ 74 (דברי הרב משה מרדכי אפשטיין על הרה”צ ר’ ישראל מטשורטקוב); אבן שתי’ החדש ח”א ע’ קב בהערה ג, אהל יצחק (וולדן) ח”ב ע’ ז, (וראה ברכת חיים (עפשטיין) ע’ כג בהספד על הרה”צ ר’ יצחק מווארקי); מפי ספרים וספרים אבות ח”א (מהדורת תשע”ג) ע’ שסז בהערה. קובץ בית אהרן וישראל, חוברת ט’, ע’ קה. שם קובץ לד, ע’ קנג ואילך. שמע שלמה (קליינבוים) ח”ב, אותיות מ, פ, פא. רשפי אש החדש ע’ צט. נפלאות הסבא קדישא ח”א ע’ 56 (ובמהדורה החדשה ע’ קמה). שיחת חולין של ת”ח החדש ע’ לג. אבקות רוכלים ע’ קצו. ילקוט יוסף (ילוז) ע’ 31, 42 ואילך. אמונת משה, במדבר, ע’ פז ואילך. שיח שרפי קודש (ראקוץ) ח”ג ע’ 19. שם ח”ה ע’ 92 ואילך (אות יז). כתבי ר’ יאשע שו”ב ע’ פו, רכג, רמד, רצה. מקור חיים (מיכלזאהן) ע’ לז, אותיות רסו, רסז. קדוש ישראל (רוט) ח”ב ע’ שיז. נחלי אמונה סלאנים, קובץ ח-ט (חשון – טבת תשמ”ג), ע’ לא ואילך; פעולת הצדיק אות תשכ”ז; מגדל עז (מונדשיין) ע’ תפו בהערה; אוצר פניני תורה וחסידות ע’ 292; שבחי רבינו השומר אמונים ח”ב ע’ כג; דרכי חיים ושלום סי’ רנו בהערה; תפארת רבותינו מאלכסנדר ע’ כד-כה; וראה ג”כ קבוצת כתבי אגדה ח”ב ע’ תקב. ועוד כהנה וכהנה.

    #2206996
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    An example of weird diyukim is the idea that the ramban meant that Hashem might revive one person, moshiach, before everyone else. He doesn’t say that. He’s writing a letter explaining techias hamaysim and says that Hashem can revive who he wants when he wants… He’s referring to tzadikim as opposed to just anyone, or people like rebbe zeirah, who were revived, but he is not talking about moshiach, who must fulfill his mission in whole.

    Building the idea of what this kuntres calls “techias protis” is just not a diyuk; it’s his religious fantasy.

    That’s just the first thing that comes to mind… He also butchers rashis 2nd pshat with some non kashas and non diyukim, to deviate from the simple meaning that rashi learns that the gemara is not literally talking about moshiach coming from maysim, but rather is discussing what moshiach will be like.

    #2206997
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Also, can you please admit that you didn’t “come across this sefer in Lakewood,” which you wrote just to make it sound like Lakewood people are warming up to your messiah. It’s a lie. You found it online.

    #2207055
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @anyPotatoKugelLeft You don’t get it. None of you Yellow Flaggers do. You can bring me alleged rayos from here to Timbuktu, it doesn’t matter. Because Talmidei Chachamim and Klal Yisroels leaders have all weighed in on this topic and know far more than some guy who wrote a book. And the unanimous view is that no, Moshiach cannot be mim ha’meisim. The only (and I stress only) dissenters on this topic are some Chabad Rabbis (but certainly not all Chabad Rabbonim) and they only started saying this after 1996.

    So keep your Da’as Yochid beliefs and fringe opinions. I’ll stick with what the greatest Gedolim say that the Torah says.

    #2207061
    anyPotatoKugelLeft
    Participant

    @AviraDeArah I live in Lakewood and I bought the sefer from Judaica Plaza. What’s so hard to believe? Lakewood is full of chasidim.

    BH I see emes is important to you. BH that’s a midda tova.

    Poshut pshat with Rav’s statement and (don’t forget ) the Medrash and yerushalmi stating Moshiach can come from the dead. Is it means Moshiach will have a Techiya Pratis before the Geula. Similar to the Gemara which says Moshe and Aharon will be with him. Ie they will have a Techiya before the building of the bais hamikdosh. Ie before Moshiach comes. So too Eliyahu hanavi could come also before Moshiach comes.

    A Techiya Pratis for anyone also includes Moshiach. Why should he be different? Because you have a fantasy?

    FYI all yidden including those in Lakewood respect Torah and Chazal. His sefer is part of Torah. Unless of course you don’t like it in which case you can continue to fantasize

    #2207066
    RSo
    Participant

    anyPotato: “Rashi also holds they are calling their Rav Raui Lehyos Moshiach. As is seen clearly from Rashi d’h Menachem: (says Rashi) Ben Chizkiya. Once Rashi shows his girsa just said Menachem so he then states it’s a real human being with a father called Chizkiya. We see he holds not just names and attributes but rather they’re pointing a finger and saying he is fit to be Moshiach.”

    1. The colons and periods in Rashi were not put there by him, as a number of Acharonim point out. Rather, Rashi wrote it all, and the printers decided where to put the colon, signifying the end of the quote from the gemoro, and the period, signifying the end of the piece. Thus, your attempted proof (which, at any rate I didn’t understand ) as to what Rashi holds has no basis. That is, we can’t know what Rashi meant by that piece.

    2. Even according to you, who was Menachem ben Chizkiyah? One opinion in the gemoro said that that is the name of Mashiach, but that doesn’t mean that it’s referring to someone known.

    And as to youir very impressive list of sources:
    1. Quoting Rishonim and Acharonimi who write “משיח צדקנו” is disingenuous. (How come I only ever use that word in the Coffee Room?) It’s an honorific. Just like when it says “מלאך ה’בתוכנו”. Would you have us believe that the talmid thought the Maharal was a real malach and not human? A malach being Mashiach! That’s very novel.

    2. I have to admit that I didn’t look up even one of the myriad sources that you quoted (I can imagine you thinking, “Let’s drown the snag in sources.” 🙂 ), but from a cursory glance at them I can see that my long-standing and oft-cited complaint has not been addressed at all.
    These people considered their Rebbes fit to be Mashiach. If Lubavichers would say just that about their rebbe, I would not be so vehemently against them, even though I believe that he was nowhere near fit to be Mashiach, and that through some of his actions and views he was detrimental to correct emunah in bias Mashiach.
    My major complaint is that Lubavichers say that he was bechezkas Mashiach, and in order to buttress this nonsensical claim they selectively quote and misinterpret whatever they want. That to me seems מגלה פנים שלא כהלכה, and is very dangerous to Klal Yisroel.

    Finally, to address one of the sources that I happened to see in your list:
    “”וראה גם רד”ק על תהלים פט, מח “בכל דור ודור יתאוה מי שהוא מזרע דוד שתהי’ בימיו הישועה ויהי’ הוא המלך המשיח”.
    That is, in every generation (the definition of which, as I have written in the past, Lubavichers reinterpreted after Gimmel Tammuz) there is a descendant of Dovid who longs for the salvation to come in his day, and he will be the Mashiach. Note, it does not say that he longs for himself to be Mashiach!

    #2207080
    Adam Neira
    Participant

    To Yserbius123,

    Your comment at 10:22 ET today is spot on. Kudos to you.

    שַׁלוּם̄

    Adam Neira, Paris, France
    Founder of World Peace 2050
    Founded in April 2000 in Melbourne, Australia

    #2207105
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Potato, the abarbanel(used in messianic circles ad nauseam) says that moshiach might be from those who rise during techias hamaysim, anf tzaykuntzus that gemara – no one ever sair moshiach will be the lone resurrected one. Not the gemara, rashi, the rambam, or anyone else.

    He invented the techia protis thing; no one says it clearly.

    And rashis 2nd(and preferred) pshat is that the gemara is talking about examples of who moshiach will be compared to.

    Eliyahu doesn’t have to be resurrected because he never died, as evidenced by the pesukim and thousands of encounters yidden have had with him all throughout history.

    As for the medrashim, check out the meforshim who this guy ignores. It’s simply explained that the neshoma of moshiach was around flr thousands of years; he embodied people like dovid, chizkiyahu, etc…who were bona fide moshiach candidates. But they individually were not moshiach, since the geulah did not happen in their times.

    #2207107
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    And why is his kuntres “part of Torah”? What authority does he have? It’s a kuntres. Hundreds of kuntresim.come out every year.

    I simply don’t believe you chanced across it in a seforim store. Talk to Lakewood bochurim about chabad – you’ll get a sense for what the outside world thinks of neo chabad.

    As for chasidim, there are many chasidim in Lakewood. But chasidim don’t believe in dead messiahs. Only chabad does. I haven’t met a single chassidishe yid who believes that the divrei yoel, the bobover rebbe, the imrei chaim, the imrei emes, etc..were moshiach, neither in their lifetimes or petiros.

    #2207249
    sechel83
    Participant

    can anyone please reference me one source that says clearly that moshiach can not be from the dead?

    #2207265

    So many good indie rock band names here:

    -Guys Running Up and Down Easter Parkway with Yellow Flags
    -The Guys Running Up and Down Eastern Parkway with Yellow Flags Expression
    -The Long-Standing Surrogate Terminologies
    -Rayos From Here to Timbuktu
    -The Fringe Opinions
    -The Colons and Periods in Rashi

    I think we should start by forming “The Guys Running Up and Down Eastern Parkway with Yellow Flags Expression.” I feel the extra word “Expression” gives it that little extra post-modernist hipster zest. Then, Gadolhadorah will form the breakaway band “The Long-Standing Surrogate Terminologies,” and he will be remembered as the real breakaway star from the whole thing.

    #2207268
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Sechel – ramban in vikuach and rambam quoted here a million times.

    #2207354
    anyPotatoKugelLeft
    Participant

    #RSo regarding #1 “…rate I didn’t understand ) as to what Rashi holds has no basis. That is, we can’t know what Rashi meant by that piece.”

    so sad that due to your preconceived ideas you would rather show the whole world you are completely uninteligent and make like you have no clue rather than admit you have made a mistake and that chazal do hold moshiach can come from the dead.

    Rashi clearly holds we are talking about a read person they said is Moshiach. see also explicitily in the Maharsha and also as quoted in his sefer from the Agadas Eliyahu they called Menachem Ben Chizkiya “Melech HaMoshiach” ie Rashi clearly holds its not just names and attirbutes rather they are pointing a finger and saying he is Fit to be Moshiach or as Maharsha states “Moshiach” and Agadas ELiyahu “Melech HaMoshiach” its all in his sefer if you would do yourself a favor and just read it (along with the Haskamos).

    #2 If you would have read his sefer or been conversant with this Sugia you would know the Medrash and Yerushalmi both say the story of Menachem Ben Chizkia in releation to Menachem Shmoi. ie Menachem Ben Chizkiya was VERY well known. just read his book or the sources your self.

    RE: “משיח צדקנו” if it is merly an Honorfic why doesnt anyone in the Litvishe world use it? it seems like you have an aversion to talmidim saying their Rav is Moshiach. why is that? do you not like what Chazal, Rishonim and Acharonim teach? you hate fellow frummer yidden so much you are prepared to disregard parts of the Tora!?!?

    Regarding Frummer yidden saying the REbbe is B’chezkas Moshiach. its a lot more than just Lubavitchers. see the Sefer Yechi HaMelech HaMoshiach. Rav Pinchus Hirschprung also signed the Rebbe is Chezkas moshiach along with others including R’ Ovadia Yosef….

    The Rebbe himself acknoledged thepsak he is Chezkas Moshiach. in the Sicha of Shmois Nun Bais and also Mishpotim Nun Bais. Of Course his followers will hold the same as thier Rav etc

    in short you have shown to all who read your commments you are not conversant with the relevant sources nor have you read his book. right now you look like a brainwashed Parrot.

    any further questions you should contact the Mechaber.

    #2207356
    anyPotatoKugelLeft
    Participant

    #AviraDeArah RE: “He invented the techia protis thing; no one says it clearly.” As quoted in Kuntres Shmoi Shel Moshiach the source for Techiya Pratis is Rambam Igeres Tchiyas HaMeisim perek 6.

    in any event Poshut Pshat with Moshiach coming from the dead means Moshiach will be ressurected in a Techiya Pratis.

    RE: “And rashis 2nd(and preferred) pshat” Does this kinda sorta mean you now acknoledge Rashi 1st Pshat is very clealy understanding the Gemara to be teaching Moshiach can come from the dead?

    if so what exactly is the problem you have? Chazal say Moshiach can come from the dead. you also keep avoiding the Yerushalmi he quotes that Rebbi Yehoshua Ben Levi Argues with Dovid Shmei and says Tzemach Shmei. As he points out the context of this machloikes is Moshiach from the living and Moshiach from the dead. same for Menachem Shmei….

    clearly chazal hold Moshiach can come from the dead…. so what exactly is your Taana? that it cant be the Rebbe?

    secondly you call Rashi Second Pirush Perferable? that means you throw away his first?!?!? and who said the second one is the Ikar? as he said in his book the second pirush starts with K’lomar and is only brought to settle the kashos with the first etc and he wrote a whole chapter explaining as to WHY it is incorrect to think the second Pirush is Rejecting the notion of Moshiach from the dead….

    so have said nothing to address these well reasoned points he makes….

    just because you dont want to like something doesnt mean facts just disappear.

    Regarding ELiyahu he quotes from Terumas Hadeshen that says Eliyahu is Considered meis. and his coming back is considered a Techiya Pratis….

    RE: “But they individually were not moshiach, since the geulah did not happen in their times.” are you sure you really read his book? his whole book is not about the Goel Tzedek rather his book is mainly about Raui Lehyos Moshiach. Chazal say you are fit to be moshiach whether you are alive or mais without Machloikes….

    do you think chazal do not hold moshiach can come from the dead?
    if so quote why you feel that way so far you havent stated anything factual personal attacks edited(you continue to ignore the YErushalmi and Medrash too)…. sad day for the TOrah…

    #2207357
    anyPotatoKugelLeft
    Participant

    #AviraDeArah RE: Ramban says no such thing. Ramban is quoted in the INTORDUCTION to his sefer. Ramban said we dont believe in a dead “Moshiach” ie if you claim you are the Actual Moshiach ie the Moshiach Vadei then you had better fulfill all the messianic prophesies before you die. he said that as the Xtians claimed Yoshke is the Actual Moshiach etc…. however he didnt fulfill any of the messianic prophesies…

    Ramban is not coming to say Moshiach cannot come from the dead and then fulfill all the messianic prophesies as chazal say is possible (without machloikes).

    also as Reb Chaim Kanievsky said we dont posken or make hanhagos from Vikuchim etc.

    RE: RAMBAM. since when is killed the same as died? and in any event Rambam says those words on a Chezkas Moshiach only not stam a Raui Lehyos Moshiach as he says in his conclusion to his sefer.

    futhermore being all of chazal held without Machloikes its not Shayach for any Rishon or Posek Halacha to rule agianst moshiach coming from the dead.

    Remember Chezkas Moshiach is only a Raui Lehyos Moshiach but with a halachic status. Chezkas Moshiach according to Rambam has NOT even begun to fulfil the messianic prophesies and hasnt even started “The Messianic Mission” Messianic Mission is poskened by Rambam as Building the Bais HaMikdiosh and doing Kibutz Galios etc…. Getting the world ready with a Moshiach campaign is not considered a Messianic Mission unless you redfine Messianic Mission to push an Adgenda… certainly not a Toras Emes Agenda etc…..

    Love your fellow Jew. There is no apikorsus here…. just move on

    #2207366
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Potato, rav hirshprung and rav ovadia never signed such a thing. It was a total forgery. This is well known.

    As for honorifics, they come and go. Ever see anyone write נר”ו anymore? Not נ”י.

    #2207379
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @anyPotatoKugelLeft Find me one, ONE respected non-Chabad Rov from the last 50 years who says that the idea that Moshiach can be a resurrected person is acceptable in Yiddishkeit.

    #2207397
    RSo
    Participant

    anyPotato: “so sad that due to your preconceived ideas you would rather show the whole world you are completely uninteligent and make like you have no clue rather than admit you have made a mistake and that chazal do hold moshiach can come from the dead”

    Thanks for the insult. Coming from a Lubavicher I treasure it. At any rate, I do not believe I made a mistake. I definitly did not make a mistake in explaining where the colons and periods in Rashi come from, and you have not shown how Chazal hold Mashiach can come from the dead, other than one peirush in Rashi, in which case it has to be Daniel and no one else.

    “Rashi clearly holds we are talking about a read [I assume you mean real] person they said is Moshiach”

    I never suggested otherwise, although I don’t see how you see Rashi saying that. The gemoro says ויש אומרים מנחם בן חזקיה שמו and the only Rashi on that is מנחם: בן חזקיה. Can you please tell me in a lucid way how you see that as proof that it’s referring to a real person.
    Furthermore, nowhere does the Maharsha say that Menachem ben Chizkiyah died. He says that he was taken to Gan Eden, as the Midrash says. That’s not quite the same as dying. Chanoch and Eliyahu were taken to Gan Eden without dying, and in the gemoro R Yehoshua ben Levi entered Gan Eden without dying.

    “…its all in his sefer if you would do yourself a favor and just read it (along with the Haskamos)”

    This is another area in which we differ. I do not think it will be doing myself a favor reading a sefer written by someone with an agenda which I believe is harmful.

    “RE: “משיח צדקנו” if it is merly an Honorfic why doesnt anyone in the Litvishe world use it?”

    Are you sure they don’t use it?
    And, once again, you pick and choose which questions to reply to. I pointed out that in the same list of titles the Maharal was referred to as מלאך השם. So did that talmid believe that the Maharal was human or a malach? It’s an honorific! Accept it.

    “it seems like you have an aversion to talmidim saying their Rav is Moshiach. why is that?”
    No. I have an aversion to anyone saying that anyone nowadays or over the last hundreds of years is/was bechezkas Mashiach. And I have an aversion to people who pick and choose statements of Chazal, Rishonim and Acharonim to prove their own personal agenda, and who ignore or misinterpret otherss

    “do you not like what Chazal, Rishonim and Acharonim teach? you hate fellow frummer yidden so much you are prepared to disregard parts of the Tora!?!?”

    Seems to me you should be taking something to calm your nerves.
    I don’t hate frummer Yidden (well, at least not many of them 🙂 ). What I hate is people who have an improper agenda and are willing to do almost anything to justify themselves. And in that I include any Lubavicher who is trying to prove that his rebbe is/was Mashiach.
    A thought that just came to me. If a Lubavicher was using all these crazy claims to prove a non-Lubavicher was Mashiach, or a non-Lubavicher was using them to claim that the Lubavicher rebbe was Mashiach it wouldn’t upset me nearly as much, because there wouldn’t be a cultish agenda in the background. But when Lubavich uses the claims to show that their rebbe is Mashiach – it’s a cult, dangerous to Torah-true Yidden, and very upsetting.

    “The Rebbe himself acknoledged thepsak he is Chezkas Moshiach. in the Sicha of Shmois Nun Bais and also Mishpotim Nun Bais”

    He said so himself! I rest my case.

    “right now you look like a brainwashed Parrot.”

    I’d like to thank the mods for not editing that out. Had they done so we would have missed the most beautiful insult.

    #2207401
    RSo
    Participant

    anyPotato: “Does this kinda sorta mean you now acknoledge Rashi 1st Pshat is very clealy understanding the Gemara to be teaching Moshiach can come from the dead?”

    (I should have a macro that automatically inserts my response to this claim, as I’ve said it so many times on so many threads!)
    Rashi’s first pshat is that if Mashiach is someone who has died then IT IS Damiel. No one else. And anyone who then says, “Rashi said Daniel, so why can’t I say Ploni who has died,” is being mezalzel Chazal by thinking he is on the same level as them. I believe it’s called מגלה פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה and it’s ‘not a very good thing’.

    #2207431
    anyPotatoKugelLeft
    Participant

    @RSo I forgot to add you clearly have also not seen the Yad Ramah to kegoin Doniel… Nor even the maharsha or the arugas haboisem or the maharsham….. But keep spewing hate come what may as well all respect the mesorah more than Chazal of course

    #2207430
    anyPotatoKugelLeft
    Participant

    @RSo clearly you have not read his book. Rashi says if it’s someone from the living NOW and if it’s someone who died ALREADY it’s Doniel. Ie in the future it can be anyone that lives or dies. After rebbi died Rav would likely think Rebbi could still be Moshiach. Again you are showing your Am Aratzus and clearly have not read the book that you are trying to trash…. Not such an intelligent position to have….

    #2207449
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Neville
    I’m starting to think you are a Dave Barry fan

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