April 24, 2023 7:42 am at 7:42 am #2183269
“And once more, as mentioned ad nauseam, the rambam says that of a messianic candidate doesn’t finish his job, and dies, he is not moshiach at all, he is disqualified. He will not return to “finish” – that’s Christian second-coming ideology, and it’s not Judaism.”
I think you know this already but the Rambam says neherag not mes. Mes includes neherag, neherag doesn’t include mes.
As far as not Jewish, I hope these very Jewish sources will be enlightening… But before I post (separate post), I’ll just say that The Rebbes work is continuing, it has not stopped unlike the pundits who predicted by gimmel Tammuz that within 5 years Chabad will collapse or have a new Rebbe..April 24, 2023 7:43 am at 7:43 am #2183270
Avira here’s the very Jewish sources. Would to hear thoughts.
אשרי המחכה וגו’. ארבעים וחמש שנים נוספים על חשבון העליון שעתיד משיחנו
להתכסות אחר שנגלה וישוב ויתגלה. וכן מצינו במדרש רות, וכן יסד רבי אליעזר הקליר )בסילוקיוצרפרשתהחדש(ויתכסהמהם ְשבּוִעיםששה.
)רש”י דניאל יב, יב(
משיח יתכסה כגואל הראשון
ויהיה הגואל נגלה וחוזר ונכסה כדי להתעות את העכו”ם ולהקשות את לבם, שכן מצינו בגאולת מצרים שנגלה להם משה וחזר ונכסה מהם, וזהו שדרשו רבותינו ז”ל: ויפגעו את משה ואת אהרן, אחר ששה חדשים נגלה הקב”ה במדין וא”ל: לך שוב מצרימה, בא משה ממדין ואהרן ממצרים ופגעו בהם שוטרי ישראל כשהם יוצאים מלפני פרעה. וכן דרשו במדרש חזית: דומה דודי לצבי, מה צבי זה הוא נראה ונכסה וחוזר ונראה, כן גואל הראשון נראה להם וחזר ונכסה מהם וחזר ונראה להם. וכמה נכסה מהם, רבי תנחומא אומר שלשה חדשים, הדא הוא דכתיב ויפגעו את משה ואת אהרן. רבי יהודה ב”ר אומר ללריסין, כלומר לשון פגיעה לפרקין היא. וכן הגואל העתיד יהיה נגלה וחוזר ונכסה, שהרי גאולה זו עתידה
)רבינו בחיי פר’ ויחי עמ’ מד(
להיות כדמיון גאולת מצרים בהרבה ענינים.
וזה נסיון גדול שנעלם הגואל ששה חדשים, וכן יהי’ בימי משיח צדקינו, יהי’ נעלם אחר התגלות כדאיתא במדרש וה’ יעמוד לימין הצדיקים בבי”א.
)תורת משה פר’ שמותApril 24, 2023 7:45 am at 7:45 am #2183291
“Of course, the whole remote controlled killing theory is unfalsifiable. Maybe it was the satmar rov who killed stalin? Maybe it was the belzer rebbe? All of klal yisroel were davening for the Soviet union to fall”
So you mean there were also other Tzaddikim familiar in shomayims halls as much as down here, who also led campaigns to kill Stalin at the time it happened? If it was a secret it’s unverifiable, but The Rebbe literally led the Chassidim in a solemn recital of Hu Ra three times which no one understood why. 3 days later, we found out Stalin had died three days earlier. It’s public- at a farbrengen.
Same with everything else I listed, it’s all public stuff not secret closet avoda etc.
“I’m not dismissing the idea of a tzadik being po’el things in shomayim to save klal yisroel, end gezeros, daven for the fall of our enemies, etc…”
“ But it’s not what the rambam is talking about. He’s talking about retaking eretz yisroel, and his example is bar kochva.”
Forgive me but I must’ve missed where in the Rambam discussing criteria for bchezkas moshiach, he says that the candidate must retake Eretz Yisrael? I don’t remember Eretz Yisrael being mentioned at all there. The Romans back then were butchering yidden for keeping Torah and mitzvos, regardless of the fact they were living in Eretz Yisrael, and the Rambam doesn’t tie bar koziba to Eretz Yisrael. Correct me if I’m wrong…April 24, 2023 7:46 am at 7:46 am #2183293
“And again, Stalin’s death meant almost nothing to the spiritual plight of Russian jewry. I’m not familiar with a plan to commit a Holocaust, but even if that were the case, the Soviet union was the “enemy” and it prevailed. And when it fell, it had already shmaded, r”l, millions of our brethren. That’s not a messianic victory, it’s a tragedy of historic proportions.”
Firstly, yes look it up. Stalin was planning on having a third killed in pogroms and then kindly shipping off the rest of the Jews to camps in Siberia where they would work without proper clothing or heating until they’d die. If they got too to work at all…
So that was an immediate threat and BH The Rebbe was able to put an end to it. Then The Rebbe also predicted the downfall of the Soviet Union before Gorbachev thought in that direction, and prepared Eretz Yisrael to absorb them. As well as The Frierdiker Rebbe and Rebbe being the only ones!!! to keep Yiddishkeit alive in Russia during the Soviet Union. This is well known…April 24, 2023 7:47 am at 7:47 am #2183298
Firstly thanks for your kind post. About your second post, there’s definitely a hierarchy of things to do to ready ourselves for moshiach, and the whole discussion of who it is is not very important right now outside of within
The important things to do to ready oneself for geula and bring it quicker are: keeping Torah and Mitzvos, learning Chassidus (moshiach told the Baal Shem Tov that he’ll come after his wellsprings are spread out) learning inyonei geula moshiach so one can be a maamin (not a kofer cvs) because it’s impossible to be mechakeh The geula on a daily basis if you have no clue what it’s about. Also then you can start to live in a geula consciousness etc. Reveal the spark of moshiach within you. Get ready to greet moshiach.April 24, 2023 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #2183509
So the only person you would consider to be Mashiach is someone who was niftar almost three decades ago? And you wonder why everyone thinks Chabad has gone off the reservation?April 24, 2023 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #2183511
Cs, despite the work of Lubavitch in Russia, yiddishkeit was not “kept alive.” If you don’t believe that, check out Brighton beach and see how many frum people there are. Not a lot. 99% of Russian jewry totally were and are secular.
And others worked on their behalf too, including rav Yitzchok zilber, as mentioned earlier in this thread. He taught Torah in secret, and anyone who is frum either had him to thank or chabad, or both. Usually the latter.
And it’s unfalsifiable that the Lubavitcher rebbe killed him. He could say he was doing something in shomayim; I’m sure he did what he thought was some sort of kabbalistic act. But do you think other tzadikim weren’t davening for him and Russia to fall? How do we know any more than, say, if a televangelist had made similar claims?
I looked up the doctors plot. Historians are not clear on the details, and there’s no direct evidence that stalin was planning genocide against Jews. On the surface, it is agreed upon that it was a plan to purge the communist party of people stalin didn’t like, and 6 out of 9 of the doctors accused were Jewish. I don’t know if that’s sufficient, because many doctors are jews. There are only second hand accounts of stalin planning to deport jews or worse. And one report says that he wanted to deport them all to the Jewish Autonomous Zone, which actually would have been a net gain, because they probably would have not intermarried and would have been able to stay frum, to an extent.April 24, 2023 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #2183513
I actually was not familiar with the sources you quoted, but there isn’t a contradiction to the rambam and there’s no second-coming-after death or partial accomplishment either. Rashi compares it to Moshe rabbeinu, who was known to the yidden, but had not done any redemptive acts. He then was hidden and returned, so these opinions in chazal(which are not standard in achronim who talk about bias hamoshiach) are saying that moshiach will be known, and then disappear, and then return to redeem us.
But no one said a word about dying. Because that would be disqualifying, as was the case with bar kochva. As soon as he died, everyone agreed he was not moshiach. They didn’t say that he would return.
And the rambam is clearly talking about retaking eretz yisroel, as he says all of the enemies “misaviv,” surrounding us, paired with “gathering all of the exiles”…bar kochva was most certainly fighting to retake eretz yisroel and restore Jewish sovereignty, as will be the case when the real geulah happens.April 24, 2023 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #2183530
We’ve also discussed why the rambam says “killed,” and it’s not a diyuk, because the word next to it is “if he was not successful to this point, or was killed”
Dying would mean “not successful to this point”
And killed is used because he’s fighting wars, so that’s what typically happens when fighting, as in the case of bar kochvaApril 24, 2023 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #2183569
Today there can be found many mentions of connecting and beseeching a dead tzaddik.April 24, 2023 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #2183576
Considering how you go on beating your dead-beat drum, I don’t see why Chabad should not continue with their mantra.
The people who keep raising the issues with Chabad have done absolutely nothing for klal yisroel for the last thirty years.
Meanwhile, Chabad’s utility, keeps expanding. All parts of Orthodoxy, are increasing their reliance on Chabad for matters of Geirus, Kashrus, and communal organization.
I know one frum family that is heavily anti-Chabad. They are natural leaders. All they do for the community is regular secular stuff. What a waste.April 24, 2023 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #2183629
Get real. Almost thirty years after his passing, even “normal” Chabad people can’t conceive of anyone aside from the Rebbe, zt”l being Mashiach. As a result, many Jews don’t trust their Geirus, Kashrus, and communal organizations. The entire yeshiva world has nothing but disdain for them, the Chassidic world has rejected them and MO leaders have compared their bizarre convictions to early Christian doctrine.
As the decades pass, the number of Chabad houses may increase but they have morphed into a personality cult built around a long departed leader. What a waste.April 24, 2023 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #2183631
I’m really glad I taught you something new, and that you had the humility to admit it. Now you’re absolutely right that if The Rebbe had passed, and his efforts to bring moshiach would have naturally stalled with that, there’d be no argument. Because that would be lo hitzliach ad ko. The reason why we enjoy picking on the diyuk in Rambam is because in this case, gimmel Tammuz did not at all affect The Rebbes work because it has only increased. And not through a successor but ask Abby Lubavitcher chossid who his current Rebbe is, and he’ll tell you it’s The Rebbe who empowers him in his shlichus and Avodas Hashem today! In this way actually, The Reeves is more alive than every other Rebbe etc today who still won’t take the achrayus of sending single couples on shlichus… in any case, in this case the diyuk very much matters.April 24, 2023 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #2183633
An alternate reason I’ve heard why neherag is used (I don’t have a source) is because if the bchezkas moshiach is killed that’s a clear indication that he failed in his mission because the forces of evil overcame him instead of the other way around.April 24, 2023 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #2183636
Gadol hadofi, are you actually looking for an answer? Or rhetorical question. And if you are looking for an answer, remember you asked…April 24, 2023 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #2183658
Cs, i do not believe that such an Arizal exists, because if it did, it would have been discussed here at some point, or one of the dozens of Lubavitchers who I’ve debated with would have told me, or i would have seen it in the messianic literature.
But I know very few maamarim of the Arizal, so please let me know if you find something like that, and we’ll discuss it.
I do appreciate your tone though; it’s refreshing.
As for Moshe and the soton’s image…no one thought Moshe rabbeinu was moshiach ben dovid, the final redeemer.
The nisayon of seeing Moshe dying wasn’t a yatzer hora of “let’s see if the jews believe Moshe died,” because what if he did? People die. Tzadikim die too.
The nisayon was what they did with that information. They reacted by saying not that Hashem will appoint another leader, and that they trust Him, which would have been fine… they said that Moshe had independent power, and they are lost without him. They have no way of reaching Hashem without him, so they chose something to be the go-between that they never needed…the egel was something that they saw on the kisei hakavod, and they gave it the same independent importance and holiness that they mistakenly gave Moshe.
Did Aharon know that Moshe was alive? Maybe. Maybe not. That wasn’t the point.April 24, 2023 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #2183659
I most certainly do want a clear answer, “yes” or “no”. Do you consider it within the realm of possibility that someone besides any of the seven Lubavitcher Rebbeim, zt”l will be Mashiach?April 24, 2023 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #2183684
For the record, I insist that Mashiach must be a Cowboys fan with a taste for sushi. Now start a petition thread to get me banned. If that doesn’t work, as a last resort you have my permission to post something intelligent.April 24, 2023 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #2183721SomedayParticipant
@CS I am moicheh on the kovod of Aharon HaKoihen.
You don’t talk that way. What is wrong with you, the moderators and everyone here for allowing that. Moderators, please remove that chiruf vegiduf. You should be banned.
Why, btw, because Ahron Hakoihen wasn’t a Lubavitcher?
Your am haaratzos is obvious too.April 24, 2023 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #2183730
Cs, Oh wait…i misread what you quoted; my apologies. The Arizal, according to what you wrote, wasn’t talking about moshiach dying .. Moshe didn’t die on har sinai.April 24, 2023 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #2183708
I missed your response to me. So I apologize for that last post. You are telling me to get real, and I can assure you that I am as real as it gets. Chabad – even activist Chabad, has gotten better about conforming to the halachic standard of others, For this reason, they are called on by Rabbonim across the spectrum of Orthodoxy to intervene in these critical matters so as not to leave a vacuum to the activist – and sometimes militant non orthodox. The fact is that many more Jews trust Chabad Organizations today. The majority of the YV had nothing but disdain for them, but relations have thawed and ideals have mellowed. The open eyed among the yeshivishe elite, have an eye to deciphering what Chabad did right.
You can stay in your cocoon and wait for some Chabadtzker to get caught in your AHA! trap. But the fact is, that they have successfully moved on, while we remain confused. As weird as it sounds, every (shteiging) Chabad Bachur that I met, is much more in touch with the real world than any of their counterparts. Their only youthful passion is the Rebbe and Toras Habaal Shem. Mir, Brisk, BMG, YU, et cetera, all wish their youth would have that passion.April 24, 2023 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #2183763
Nom, are you saying that religious fervor is something admirable?
I’m surprised, because you seem to prefer being apathetic about religious issues, except for an apparent soft spot for neo chabad.
The bardichever said that goyim treat their churches with great respect and never talk during prayers, whereas yidden have a millennia struggle with such things, because the yatzer hora tells goyim to pray, and yidden to talk.
All of the flare and passion which comes easily, with just learning sichos, or singing, shows merely a religious fervor, not genuine avodas Hashem. Real passion for torah comes after the struggle of learning how to learn gemara, the sobering pain of failure, both in learning and in mitzvos… When the passion comes quick, it’s never a good sign
It’s just like fresh baalei teshuvah; the excitement isn’t forever and it’s superficial important, yes, but only as much as what it’s put intoApril 25, 2023 7:30 am at 7:30 am #2183782
“Cs, i do not believe that such an Arizal exists, because if it did, it would have been discussed here at some point, or one of the dozens of Lubavitchers who I’ve debated with would have told me, or i would have seen it in the messianic literature.
But I know very few maamarim of the Arizal, so please let me know if you find something like that, and we’ll discuss it.
I do appreciate your tone though; it’s refreshing.”
So, I did find some fascinating stuff (the most fascinating of all to me personally is that it accords/ confirms a personal vision in a dream I had of moshiach that I had a couple years back after I had asked to see moshiach after some work I had done… so I’m very grateful I saw this.) I’m not gonna look it up in the original because I have an exact quote, but you’re welcome to look it up in the original and of course let us know if there’s anything missing/ wrong. And thanks… I’ll post belowApril 25, 2023 7:36 am at 7:36 am #2183784
Like we found by Moshe that he went up to the firmament as body and soul, and remained there for 40 days, so to it will be with the Moshiach after
he merits to that neshoma and recognizes himself that he is Moshiach, as it states Moshiach will be revealed but he still won’t be recognized by the rest of the people, and afterwards the Moshiach will be concealed in body and soul in the same way that Moshe entered into the cloud…
( Ohr Hachama on Zohar Shemos 7b, quong R’ Chayim Vital, z”l.)
It is explained elsewhere that “[the verse] ’Moshe entered into the cloud’ means that he separated from the ma‐
Ohr Hachama, Mishpatim 99a.
(This isn’t the part relevant to my vision/ dream. For the whole fascinating discussion of how our bodies will look by Moshiach’s time along with the list of sources, please see Edited)
The nekuda is that everyone will shed their flesh bodies (remove your shoes) and be left with our original bodies, the tzelem Elokim before Chet etz hadas, which was so luminous that it darkened the sun as is known)
As for my question about Aharon, I’m surprised it wasn’t obviously obvious, but since it seems it wasn’t clear- OBVIOUSLY i don’t think Aharon was stupid or harbored strange beliefs etc. for believing in the words of his Rebbe Moshe Rabbeinu who had told everyone he was coming back… and I’m gonna leave it at that for now, because what I was alluding to was a separate topic.April 25, 2023 7:38 am at 7:38 am #2183786
Just to comment on the discussion with nomesora, it is known that pnimius HaTorah is likened to fire and nigle to water, so it imbues those who learn with fire as well, whether they’re just starting or not. And hiskashrus to a tzaddik infuses one with chayus in avodas Hashem, so when you put them both together it makes sense you’ll get a double dose of excitement for
everything Hashem, Rebbe and Torah relatedApril 25, 2023 7:39 am at 7:39 am #2183785
Gadol hadofi, I’m sorry I think yes or no answers are a disservice as people can misread the intention… so I won’t be taking you up on your offerApril 25, 2023 9:28 am at 9:28 am #2183851
we seem not to be ready for Moschiach, as everyone producing a candidate list omits people from different groups from their lists – Y v L v MO, etc. Do you expect Moschiach to lead the whole of Jewish pepole or just lead the flame wars on Internet on behalf of your group?!
As death does not seem to be a barrier any more (gilgulim welcome?), maybe we should look at people who are accepted in all corners? Rashi, Ramban, Ramchal, Chofetz Chaim, Jonathan Sacks. There are also several candidates who made an effort to be accepted by broader Jewish community with some success, but, as a result, are less accepted in the yeshivish community despite their credentials. In my count, they qualify by their ability to lead the broader community, but I am not putting their names here to avoid reflexive loshon hora.April 25, 2023 10:46 am at 10:46 am #2183890
When moshiach reveals himself to everyone, everyone will accept him and i could explain how based on personal experience, if you wish…April 25, 2023 10:46 am at 10:46 am #2183889
AAQ, I have no problem with anyone suggesting a serious candidate that differs from my own. I do not expect anyone not Lubavitch to accept The Rebbe as Moshiach. I would’ve been happy to come and answer the op and say, the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Who’s yours?
The only reason I write more is because people seem to think that I have no right to think my own Rebbe is Moshiach even though many people and of course Chassidim think he fits the bill.April 25, 2023 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #2183939
Chabad has every right to think that the departed Rebbe, zt”l is Mashiach and the rest of Jewry has every right to think that Chabad is beyond the pale because of it.April 25, 2023 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #2183998
People will have different opinions and that’s fine as long as they are Al pi Torah. BH there are many Jews of all stripes who appreciate Chabad and our Rebbes workApril 25, 2023 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #2184108
Cs, why does it matter so much to chabad the way that they’re seen? Not as yidden, but specifically that people should appreciate and think favorably of their specific group and their specific rebbe.
Why is the phrase “kiddush chabad” a thing?
Why is it that all other sects care only about chillul/kidush Hashem, and how the world views Torah jewry, irrespective of if they’re litvishe, satmar, sefardi, or anything else? Is the image of chabad and its leader more important than the image of any other entity which subscribes to Torah Judaism?April 25, 2023 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #2184128
when Moschiach comes, we – hopefully – all accept him. Before that, you may try to think how you can make the world into a better place rather than idly speculating who M might be. There is no special mitzva to be the best guesser as far as I know.
Maybe it will help us (and you yourself) understand your position better if you could describe how it came to your mind to spend time speculating about who M might b. Did you read it in sichos? a yeshiva teacher? your parents? a Gemora? something in Tanach?April 26, 2023 4:11 am at 4:11 am #2184149
Avira obviously kiddush Lubavitch does not replace kiddush Hashem. It’s in addition. Not everything that would be a Chilul Lubavitch is necessarily a chillul Hashem. Say, going to college. I don’t know. Anything The Rebbe said to do and a chossid disregards, and of course it’s much worse if it’s also a chillul Hashem cvs.April 26, 2023 4:12 am at 4:12 am #2184148
Avira, it’sa family thing. I’m guessing you’re familiar with the Rashi riu gidulim shehgidaltem. The Rebbe is our father (Avi Avi rechev Yisrael) and we naturally don’t want to bring him shame. I haven’t seen any sichos on this- it’s just sensible. I don’t why other groups aren’t similarly inclined. You tell me.April 26, 2023 8:56 am at 8:56 am #2184156
AAQ as stated, I didn’t start this thread and would have been happy to post a several word answer. By
me it’s not speculation. It’s already knowledge as I already have a clear picture of what’s going on based on the sources I’ve learned. But that doesn’t need to be relevant to you necessarily unless you’re interested. It is really insider’s knowledge that only belongs to those who see The Rebbe as a tzadik and his words as Torah, which is something I have seen I cannot unfortunately expect from everyone. Which is why I have quoted other sources here.April 26, 2023 8:57 am at 8:57 am #2184158
To address this from a different angle,
“ Maybe it will help us (and you yourself) understand your position better if you could describe how it came to your mind to spend time speculating about who M might b. Did you read it in sichos?”
“a yeshiva teacher?”
Yes, we learned all about many things about moshiach and geula in an inyonei geula umoshiach shiur. For 4 years, in addition to time spent learning outside of school.
A bit but no explanation
Yeah of course. The 4 yeshivos who promoted their RY as a likely candidate.
something in Tanach?
The whole Nach is full of moshiach and geula, and of course in Torah there’s the Mitzvah of ir miklat which was never yet fulfilled, so that’s proof for geula, as well as the nivuah of bilaam. But I haven’t seen in tanach anything about identifying moshiach. Sources for that would be mainly that Gemara above, and the Rambam. And of course if you’re expecting the Geula at any moment (whoever isn’t is deemed a kofer actually) then it’s only natural to look out for anything related including his identity.April 26, 2023 9:07 am at 9:07 am #2184192Reb EliezerParticipant
If the talmidim don’t behave properly, it is a reflection on the rebbi and yeshiva.April 26, 2023 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #2184609
We need to stop making gedolim into popes, has ve sholom. Whatever great things Chabad and others were doing secretly in support of remaining Yidden in USSR, there were limits to their power. When students for Soviet Jewry started planning (ultimately successful) public protests in 1960s, they asked advice from R Feinstein, R Teitz, L Rebbe and Rav Soloveichik – all advised against. First 3 primarily because they were afraid of USSR reaction, including physical, based on their own painful experiences. This is documented in memoirs. Someone else asked at Ner Yisroel and got a positive response – that we don’t have preference for shtadlanus v public action, we have preference for whatever works.April 26, 2023 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #2184610
thanks for the detailed answer.
so Rambam has a page and Gemora has a page, while you spent a shiur for 4 years. Some disbalance? It sounds like your parents are more balanced, and maybe you should follow their advice. Btw, Chofetz Chaim says that, yes, children in our times (1920s) are upset when parents tell them something, but Eliahu will come soon and will explain to children that parents have their best interest in mind and they’ll love their parents for their direction.April 27, 2023 7:27 am at 7:27 am #2184652
Just to clarify, we did not spend years studying about the identity of moshiach- that’s not such a long sugya. We spent years studying about the era of geula- how it will be, what we can do to hasten it’s coming, and as a side note- yea we kind of got into the identity piece but didn’t fully flesh it out. Probably at least half of that puzzle I learned on my own time.April 27, 2023 7:44 am at 7:44 am #2184653
“Btw, Chofetz Chaim says that, yes, children in our times (1920s) are upset when parents tell them something, but Eliahu will come soon and will explain to children that parents have their best interest in mind and they’ll love their parents for their direction.”
I was never upset at my parents for what they told me- I just wanted to learn more to see if they were right/ make it my own.
Btw The Rebbes explanation on the above Gemara (in sotah right?) is that we can fulfill it in the positive- children will be chutzpadik by urging their parents to do more Torah and mitzvos than they were doing already, and that’s also what Rashi means when he writes “vheishiv lev avos Al bonim- Al yidei bonim.”June 8, 2023 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #2198132sechel83Participant
moshiach told the baal shem tov (keser shem tov סימן א) when he asked him when he’s coming “when you’re learning with be spread and be revealed in the world and your wellsprings will be spread to the outside”
moshiach is someone who has the neshama called יחידה הכללית, he will teach the level in torah called יחידה. which is chassidus – chassidus is a taste of תורתו של משיח.
(ראה קונטרס ענינה של תורת החסידות)
and i wont even bother with the people who don’t beleive in the baal shem tov, he learned torah straight from achiya hashiloni and moshiach himself, so….June 8, 2023 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #2198165
It should be noted that toras hamusar accomplishes pretty much the same goal as chasidus. Moshiach will come when penimius hatorah – whether it be chasidishe torah, or a deep piece of sichos kussar – will spread. People need to be oved Hashem with their hearts; the goals are the same.
The yeshivos kedoshos are not holding back the geulah.June 8, 2023 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #2198170GadolhadorahParticipant
Sechel83: Among our resident Moishichists are some who might believe that the Besht himself is MoishiachJune 9, 2023 8:27 am at 8:27 am #2198229SomedayParticipant
I like the thought. I like the he’orah. It is a chiddush which may be a possibility. However, you have not brought any proof to it.
You actually seem to be mixing together 2 possibilities.
1) That the Toras Hachasidus is “Penimius HaTorah,” (which I believe is a more standard consideration,) which you want to say that Toras Hamussar is also Penimius HaTorah.
This I do not see. It is not mistabra that Mussar is the Penimus HaTorah that Chassidus is meant to be.
2) That Toras Hachissidus is meant to teach one to be oived H’ be’leiv with one’s heart. In which case one can argue that Toras Hamussar accomplishes the same thing. This I found interesting.
However, regarding what you said that the Yeshivos accomplish this with Mussar, I have not seen Yeshivos really focusing on Mussar to this degree.
I would venture to defend the Yeshivos, by understanding that the hatzlachah fun a zach is liggen in dem. Bachurim and even young yungeleit have to lig and focus on one thing to succeed. Eat, sleep and breathe Baba Kama, Baba Metziah or Eiruvin, whatever they are learning to first become Talmidei Chachamim. Afterwards, they can focus on Mussar and Avoidas H’ be’lev. Loi am ha’aretz chasid.
Also, Mussar, and for Sefer Choivois Halevavois to go into you, requires maturity and having R”n gone through some of life’s tribulations, which comes later on. (I, personally, have found this difference myself, how Mussar and Choivas Halevavois did not really work for me in my younger days, the way it works for me now, older and having gone through mill [to say the least…])
– YMSJune 9, 2023 9:36 am at 9:36 am #2198257
There is a part of Mussar and Chassidus that are the same.
What is the totality of being a Yid.
There is a part that is definitely different.
The direct effect on the practitioner.
And there is a much debated gap between the similarities and the differences.
How you feel about that gap, is how much of a misnagid you are.June 9, 2023 9:37 am at 9:37 am #2198258
Both mussar and chassidus are not the intense regimen that they were intended to be. These movements within Judaism don’t last very long as movements. Today, it is more accurate to refer to them as tools.June 9, 2023 9:37 am at 9:37 am #2198259
You seem to have a low opinion of the Baal Shem. Why do you need that he learned from AchHa”sh and Moshiach to justify his existence?June 9, 2023 9:38 am at 9:38 am #2198263
Someday; i should have mentioned that it’s not my own chidush; i saw it in a more recent chasidishe sefer (like nesivos shalom)
While yeshivos don’t spend hours a day on mussar, most learn something daily, as the Gaon and chayei odom (brought in the mishnah berurah) say to do
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