April 20, 2023 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #2182639mentsch1Participant
Excuse me if I missed something ( I didn’t read every post) but I believe you and I have very different definitions of the words halacha and chazaka
In order for something to have a chazakah there can not be doubt. it must, by definition, be established. So the only way to have a chazakah of being moshiach is if moshiach was actually here (shofar blowing and all) and then we can point to moshiach and say “there he is” I.e. there must be an established certainty.
As for halacha , I don’t even begin to understand how you are using that term in this context of the theoretical . Halacha is usually established by majority consensus of poskim. Certainly no one outside of chabad would give that consensus. Besides, how do you pasken that someone is moshiach?April 21, 2023 7:51 am at 7:51 am #2182710
Mentsch1 the terms I have used are based on the Rambam s definition in the last two prakim of hilchos melachim (and no one is cholek on the Rambam) where the Rambam halachically defines who can be considered a suitable candidate to be moshiach (bchezkas moshiach) and the second stage of moshiach vadai- someone we certainly know to be moshiach (because he builds the BHMK etc) from the fact that the Rambam defines this halachically indicates that we should be on the lookout to identify moshiach using these criteria.
There have been piskei din to this effect as well
Anyhow fascinating topic…April 21, 2023 7:52 am at 7:52 am #2182721mentsch1Participant
So I’ve been informed (since I posted the above) that you are paraphrasing a rambam
Having looked over the rambam I would say that giant leaps of reinterpretation are being made to come to your conclusion
Also I noted that you do not speak of the Rebbes death, just a date
Is that Bc you do not believe he died?April 21, 2023 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #2182748
It’s not my “giant leaps of reinterpretation” as you put it. For example (just one) Rav Moshe Feinstein says that moshiach doesn’t necessarily need to fight physical waters, but spiritual wars can fit the bill… That’s one example…
Not necessarily. Gimmel Tammuz is just the accepted, most comfortable term Lubavitchers use, and
I use it too. (A more complex answer would explore the theme of Yaakov lo meis although chantu chantaya etc.)
So answer to op so far has been The Rebbe. Anyone else anyone else is considering someone else?April 21, 2023 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #2182749
But Mentsch1, I’m glad you looked at the Rambam. If you’re actually curious and look up sources, then I won’t mind posting them:)April 21, 2023 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #2182805
CS, where does rav moshe say anything of the sort?
Complete fabrication. No one said that until messianic Lubavitch.
Yaakov lo meis means Yaakov didn’t die. It doesn’t mean that anyone else didn’t. Eliyahu also didn’t die, and neither did chanoch.
So what? The Lubavitcher Rebbe died. He had strokes and physical health problems just like anyone else. He’s no longer living. He’s not yaakov, eliyahu, or chanoch.April 22, 2023 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #2182890
A gutte voch from my locality.
Avira DeAra I’ll post the source from igros Moshe, that you think is a complete fabrication… then if you’re interested I’ll explain Yakov lo mes concept although it’s off topic.
Back to topic, For me, it’s not a chiddush that Lubavitchers think The Rebbes moshiach because he’s our Rebbe, and that was normal practice back in the day when there were more real Tzaddikim (as in Tanya definition) I’m just wondering if anyone else has another current leader in mind as a suitable candidate.April 22, 2023 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #2182891
Iggros Moshe, Orach Chayim, volume 4, responsa 81 (see inside for full content)
דהא מפורש בעירובין דף מ”ג ע”ב אליהו לא אתי במעלי שבתא משיח אתי דכיון דאתי משיחא הכל עבדים הן לישראל והוא מהפחד הגדול שזה אינו מצד היראה מהכלי זין, וכמה מלחמות למלכים הצדיקים היה בלא כלי זין כמו ליהונתן ולדוד עם גלית ולאסא וליהושפט ולחזקיה שנצחו בלא כלי זין שא”כ ודאי מלך המשיח לא יצטרך לכלי זין,
Metzudos, Zecharia 9:10
הכרתי. אז אבטל רכב וסוס וקשת מלחמה כי לא תהיה אז מלחמה ואין צורך לא לקשת ולא לרכב וסוס:
ודבר שלום לגוים. המלך המשיח לא יכניע את כולם ע״י מלחמה כ״א בדברי שלום יכניעם להיות סרים למשמעתו וזה יהיה העיקר והמלחמה טפלה לו
Besides for the many instances where the Rebbe led the world and fought evil spiritually such as the famous occurrence where The Rebbe killed Stalin and brought down the iron curtain as just one example. But mostly The Rebbe influenced world leaders peacefullyApril 23, 2023 12:00 am at 12:00 am #2182918
I would be careful claiming that Rebbe killed Stalin. Why didn’t here do it earlier before millions of people were killed?April 23, 2023 12:01 am at 12:01 am #2182921GadolHadofiParticipant
Please confirm whether you consider it within the realm of possibility that someone besides any of the seven Lubavitcher Rebbeim, zt”l will be Mashiach.April 23, 2023 12:02 am at 12:02 am #2182922mdd1Participant
CS, Rabbi Shneerson killed Stalin and brought down the Iron curtain?!?!? Said who?!?
Rabbi M.M. Shneerson did not make all or majority of Klal Yisroel go in the derech ha’Torah or rebuild the Beis Ha’Mikdash or did other things which Moshiach is supposed to do. Enough of brainwashing!April 23, 2023 12:03 am at 12:03 am #2182932
CS: “I’m just wondering if anyone else has another current leader in mind as a suitable candidate.”
If by current you’re referring to those who lived in the lifetime of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, here are some suitable candidates:
Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinski
Rav Elchonon Wasserman
Rav Gershon EdelsteinApril 23, 2023 1:44 am at 1:44 am #2182936
Cs, as i suspected. He doesn’t say a word about a spiritual war. He says it will be won without “him needing weapons”, like how chizkiyahu won wars through prayer, dovid killed golius, etc…as in Hashem will just topple the enemies, without a conventional war.
But it’s very much physical enemies. Not the yatzer hora or avodah zara etcApril 23, 2023 1:45 am at 1:45 am #2182942
2 on your list, albeit true gedolim & tzaddikim, you are still stretching it too much.
1 on your list, you are stretching it a bit.
1 on your list is outrageously laughable (even to his own loyalist followers!)
The rest are OK choices.April 23, 2023 1:45 am at 1:45 am #2182943
This is not there in siman 81.
Mainly, your reading in those words that Mashiach need not fight physical wars, rather only spiritual wars, is not there at all. Was Dovid against Goliyas a spiritual war. Where do you see it there?
(Agav, I am not understanding why a slingshot is not Klei zayin, and what was Yehonasan’s involvement there? But I did not see see the context there.April 23, 2023 2:33 am at 2:33 am #2182953
Someday: Obviously we disagree. You haven’t identified whom you’re referring to, so I can’t individually address your allegations. But, I should add, the first two I forgot to specify which Rabbonim with those titles I was referring to, which I suspect you may have misidentified (and, thus, you’ll withdraw your comment in regards to). In both cases I was referring to the Rabbonim who assumed those titles already before the Holocaust.April 23, 2023 2:34 am at 2:34 am #2182954
Someday, don’t be surprised.
Something chabad, Zionists, and MO all have in common is that they fabricate and twist sources to suit their deviations from mesorah and false ideologies
But messianic chabad takes the cake in this regard.April 23, 2023 2:54 am at 2:54 am #2182960
Also, what rav moshe meant by dovid and galius not being klei zayin refers to the war in general with the plishtim. When their champion was defeated, they abandoned their campaign. The war was over without a formal military conflict.April 23, 2023 7:25 am at 7:25 am #2182965April 23, 2023 7:27 am at 7:27 am #2182982
“Cs, as i suspected. He doesn’t say a word about a spiritual war. He says it will be won without “him needing weapons”, like how chizkiyahu won wars through prayer, dovid killed golius, etc…as in Hashem will just topple the enemies, without a conventional war.
But it’s very much physical enemies. Not the yatzer hora or avodah zara etc”
Yah you’re right. I meant fight by spiritual means (I guess like Moshe killing the Egyptian with his words) instead of leading a physical weapon campaign etc.
If you noticed I mentioned Stalin. Also The Rebbe predicted the fall of the Soviet Union before Gorbachev was considering it and directed Eretz Yisrael to prepare housing for all of the immigrants who would leave… which seemed preposterous at the time… until it happened. There were other physical wars also that The Rebbe fought on a spiritual plane as well if you want them enumerated lmkApril 23, 2023 7:27 am at 7:27 am #2182985
AAQ: “I would be careful claiming that Rebbe killed Stalin. Why didn’t here do it earlier before millions of people were killed?”
The story with Stalin unfolded at a farbrengen , it’s no secret, you can look it up easily I’m sure
The Rebbe is fighting Hashem’s battles and cannot do anything before the time Hashem wills.
A deeper reason could be that The Rebbe wasn’t appointed as moshiach yet before then.April 23, 2023 7:28 am at 7:28 am #2182986
Mdd “Rabbi M.M. Shneerson did not make all or majority of Klal Yisroel go in the derech ha’Torah or rebuild the Beis Ha’Mikdash or did other things which Moshiach is supposed to do. Enough of brainwashing!”
The Rebbe did institute ways/ a structure of personal shluchim to reach every single Jew and bring them closer to Torah and mitzvos. Correct- he didn’t build the Beis HaMikdash- that is within the category of moshiach Vadai which I wasn’t discussingApril 23, 2023 7:29 am at 7:29 am #2182987
Firstly I’m glad people are considering likely candidates for moshiach today. That’s wonderful. That aside, how many of the following list you gave me
If by current you’re referring to those who lived in the lifetime of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, here are some suitable candidates:
Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinski
Rav Elchonon Wasserman
Rav Gershon Edelstein
1) descended from Malchus Beis dovid?
2) made efforts to reach EVERY JEW (not just own community) and bring them close to Torah and mitzvos?
3) fought the wars of Hashem against those who were stopping yidden from keeping Torah and mitzvos?
Unless I’m mistaken, this list is only a compilation of one of the 4 criteria listed by the Rambam- namely “that he toils in Torah and mitzvos like Dovid”
To be a suitable candidate you gotta have all 4April 23, 2023 12:11 pm at 12:11 pm #2183018☕️coffee addictParticipant
In regards to Rav Moshe’s teshuva
You can’t just quote something and then stop, he brings other shittos that say not like thatApril 23, 2023 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #2183041
CA I would’ve liked to but unfortunately I’ve seen that when one posts something long, no one bothers to read and it was a long sugya. So that’s why I quoted the relevant soundbite and said see inside for full contentApril 23, 2023 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #2183049☕️coffee addictParticipant
So the rest of it says that there are other shittos that say it will be a real war not a “spiritual war”April 23, 2023 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #2183052
Cs, an army of shluchim is not a sign of a Messiah. That army was not “kofeh kol yisroel” to keep the Torah, as the rambanlm stipulates. The vast majority of klal yisroel became less religious during the lifetime of the Lubavitcher rebbe, with conservative growing in America during the 40s until around the 80s. And even when they declined, it wasn’t because they were all becoming frum; the intermarriage rate only increased.
At the time the Lubavitcher rebbe passed away, 90% of world jewry were not frum. Now more are, but it’s due to having more children and intermarriage more than the BT movement, which currently is almost entirely among sefardim… Ashkenazim have an intermarriage rate of more than 70% now .
So did the Lubavitcher rebbe bring all of yisroel to the Torah? Not by any stretch. Not even close. Not even close to being close to being close. Rav saadya gaon brought far more Jews back during this fight against the karaim, and nobody thought he was moshiach.
As for yichus, there were many gedolim who were descendants of dovid hamelech, including all of the rebbes of riszhin.April 23, 2023 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #2183054
Also, stalin was one of many enemies of the jews. After his death, nothing improved in the Soviet union for Jewish people either .. The persecution continued unabated for decades.
And what about all of the other enemies? There were still tons of extremist Muslim terrorists, neo Nazis and Jewish persecutors, such as militant anti religious Zionists.April 23, 2023 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #2183066
Btw forgot to mention to mdd, that Stalin died right as he was about to implement the Doctors Plot which he was using to kill all the Jews in the Soviet Union (I think it was 3 million?) so yes BH many lives were saved by his deathApril 23, 2023 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #2183079
Avira, if you notice, the criteria for bchezkas moshiach are all personal traits, whereas moshiach Vadai are all effects in the world. The first criterion of moshiach Vadai is עשה והצליח. This implies that when it says יכוף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה, by bchezkas moshiach- it means that he as a person did his best to influence things in that direction…. And if it is indeed successful then he’s moshiach Vadai.
The Rebbe put in the infrastructure to change the tide for world Jewry, and yes it didn’t immediately turn around, but slowly but surely The Rebbes work is paying off. And it’s still his work today, because every Lubavitcher feels The Rebbes guidance today, which is why he’s still our Rebbe… and we have what to do until we complete our mission of bringing moshiach.
A practical example is a recent Pew study which indicates that a large percentage of Jews today are in Chabad houses and programs, the closing Reform temples and expanding Chabad houses, the Reform movement turning in the direction of adding mitzvos back in to the picture etc.
Also if you only measure success by frume yidden, you will get a smaller, growing number, but if you measure success as in how many yidden are growing in Mitzvah observance, one Mitzvah at a time, and on their way up, the number is vast.
Just some things to think aboutApril 23, 2023 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #2183080
Avira, Stalin was only one example. Here are some more: the assignation of Faisal, King of Saudi Arabia, who posed a big threat to Eretz Yisrael, the miraculous six day war, the gulf war (which could have easily turned into a global war), the end of the Cold War between Russia and US, and the UN committing to use money used for arms for helping other countries with food (וכתתו חרבותם לאיתים) are the few off the top of my headApril 23, 2023 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #2183084
Avira yes no one is saying that all our enemies are completely defeated, or the Geula process is completed, we’re still very much in golus… when the second stage of geula comes iyH (moshiach Vadai etc) it will include all thatApril 23, 2023 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #2183085amiricanyeshivishParticipant
You forgot to mention he stopped or was it predicted the end of gulf war. So he must of killed Saddam Hussein too. Probably Osama Bin Ladin too. And Hitler YM”SH was probably killed by the Riat”z.April 23, 2023 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #2183100
CS, was your comment about the Reform that you believe the Reform are starting to do more Mitzvos because of Lubavitch?April 23, 2023 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #2183107
AY possibly but I don’t know about that so I can’t commentApril 23, 2023 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #2183102
Cs, chezkas moshiach is only personal traits? This is totally off The rambam clearly mentions bringing back yisroel to teshuvah(ALL of them) nd fighting the wars as a chazakah. He has to be hogeh batorah, too
It says he will bring all of yisroel to keep the Torah. Are all or even a quarter of yisroel keeping the Torah, 2 and a half decades after the Lubavitcher rebbe passed away? No. They’re not. Chabad are not the only ones taking over frei shuls; many litvishe and MO rabbis are as well.
And in those chabad houses, are they all suddenly becoming frum? Usually it’s old timers who maybe keep a few things, maybe eat a Shabbos seudah before watching TV.
And don’t get me wrong, it’s great to keep even one mitzvah. Abstaining from sin for a minute is huge, too. But that has nothing to do with the criteria for moshiach.
And once more, as mentioned ad nauseam, the rambam says that of a messianic candidate doesn’t finish his job, and dies, he is not moshiach at all, he is disqualified. He will not return to “finish” – that’s Christian second-coming ideology, and it’s not Judaism.
As for fighting the wars and defeating our enemies; again, the rambam says “all” “misavev”, that didn’t happen.
Of course, the whole remote controlled killing theory is unfalsifiable. Maybe it was the satmar rov who killed stalin? Maybe it was the belzer rebbe? All of klal yisroel were davening for the Soviet union to fall
I’m not dismissing the idea of a tzadik being po’el things in shomayim to save klal yisroel, end gezeros, daven for the fall of our enemies, etc… But it’s not what the rambam is talking about. He’s talking about retaking eretz yisroel, and his example is bar kochva.
And again, Stalin’s death meant almost nothing to the spiritual plight of Russian jewry. I’m not familiar with a plan to commit a Holocaust, but even if that were the case, the Soviet union was the “enemy” and it prevailed. And when it fell, it had already shmaded, r”l, millions of our brethren. That’s not a messianic victory, it’s a tragedy of historic proportions.April 23, 2023 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #2183139
I am very impressed by your ability to be so candid on this topic. I have the utmost (virtual) respect for anyone who can post like you do. Thanks for coming back!April 23, 2023 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #2183149
Dear Fellow Posters,
We can have a fun shmooze so long as we don‘t take this topic too seriously. The Rambam clearly says we don‘t know how the events will play out. And it‘s not even considered Limud Hatorah to discuss how it may happen. The main criteria is ‘a descendant of Dovid Hamelech who goes in his ways‘. If you think that any specific Jew is disqualified because of the latter phrase, please keep it off this site. It‘s a very high bar, which can be analyzed in an general manner. Let‘s not carry on pulling apart all the great Jewish Leaders to see how much they worried, cared, and acted on behalf of all Jews. And if you are not aware how Dovid Hamelch himself was a fulfillment of said phrase, kindly excuse yourself from this topic. If you are unaware of the initiator, than don‘t attempt to describe the culmination.April 23, 2023 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #2183165
Also, try to separate the two topics.
1) Following in the ways of Dovid Hamelech.
2) What does it mean to say that tzaddikim die?
Obviously for this one instance the two are intertwined. But that will be easily solved if we ever come to a consensus on each one separately.April 23, 2023 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #2183187
Someday: Are you able to identify which four you’re referring to, as I cannot ascertain whom you are referencing, or thereby address your issues.April 23, 2023 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #2183192
I don’t get the point of your list. It doesn’t have to be a known figurehead.April 23, 2023 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #2183209
in my experience, most of baalei teshuva are from chabad (not necessarily staying Chabad). Maybe my crowd is skewed more towards academic community. There are several good-meaning and donor-funded organizations on campus now that do some classes and trips to Israel, not sure how successful they are. I do not know many (any?) people who walked up a Satmar, Litvishe, or MO shul and became interested. Do you?April 23, 2023 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #2183210
Re: Stalin. His death was a marker after which communism mellowed. Millions of people got released from prisons, some yidden who kept Polish citizenship were able to escape. Did any of the mentioned gedolim claimed thier share? I know of one Rav – R Yitzhok Zilber who claims some credit: he was in the Siberian labor camp and he writes that when he heard the rumor that Stalin was sick, he says “I dropped everything and starting saying tehilim so that the rasha dies, and did not stop until I was told that he did”.April 23, 2023 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #2183212
Dear N0m: The point of my list was to respond to another Yid here asking that other potential candidates be named.April 23, 2023 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #2183235
Aaq, plenty of people walk into a young Israel and become frum. It happens out of town all the time, and it happens in NYC sometimes too. Very few just show up in a chasidishe place or a litvishe beis medrash, however.
Litvishe kiruv is not about shul as much as community kolelim, and they are very successfulApril 23, 2023 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #2183242mdd1Participant
Always, the Jews with the Polish citizenship left during the Stalin times — in the mid-forties.April 24, 2023 7:33 am at 7:33 am #2183258
Aaq, communism “mellowing” after stalin is little comfort to the millions of jews who were shmaded subsequently, and their descendants.April 24, 2023 7:34 am at 7:34 am #2183260
Ujm yes I’ve seen several emails/ fliers to that effect- that they should refocus on mitzvos because Chabad is doing that and they’re successful… a different flyer I’ve seen that they’re going to study The Rebbes teachings together as a class etc.April 24, 2023 7:41 am at 7:41 am #2183262
Avira, long post so I’ll try to respond one at a time.
“Cs, chezkas moshiach is only personal traits? This is totally off The rambam clearly mentions bringing back yisroel to teshuvah(ALL of them) nd fighting the wars as a chazakah. He has to be hogeh batorah, too”
As mentioned earlier, the first category of moshiach Vadai is עשה והצליח… and even with that The Rebbe has seen hatzlocha no doubt, it doesn’t say asa vgomar etc, but let’s just say we’re talking about bchezkas moshiach- that’s even beforeעשה. והצליח… next.
“Chabad are not the only ones taking over frei shuls; many litvishe and MO rabbis are as well.”
That’s great. And they’re led by our example (I’m sure you know some history ideologically and even practically), and many of their success stories started off with us as well. But yes it’s not a copyright and everyone should join in the effort. Geula is about every yid not just 10%. ואתם תלוקטו אחד אחדApril 24, 2023 7:41 am at 7:41 am #2183265
“And in those chabad houses, are they all suddenly becoming frum? Usually it’s old timers who maybe keep a few things, maybe eat a Shabbos seudah before watching TV.”
Really? Some yes, and that’s also an accomplishment, and you never know where it may lead, but no. There are many baalei teshuva BH.
“And don’t get me wrong, it’s great to keep even one mitzvah. Abstaining from sin for a minute is huge
Glad you see that.
“But that has nothing to do with the criteria for moshiach.”
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