What incitement??

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  • #1936824
    The Shady Charedi
    Participant

    I’m not American, so as a somewhat objective outsider, in my humble observation, the media reaction to the incident on the Capitol has been a ridiculous unprecedented tirade of anti-Trump propaganda. And the hypocrisy, by comparing their reaction to the beyond-comparison more violent riots over the last year, is outrageously astonishing.

    But, opinions aside – please don’t react to the above, I don’t want that to side-track this thread – I would like to ask those, on either side of the aisle, who are more conscientious than I am… Can anyone give me a purely factual timeline and verbatim quotes from Trump that supposedly incited violence, compared to when the riots occurred. Also, the statements from Trump as soon as he became aware of the riots – either encouraging them on, or denouncing them. (Where was he when the riots escalated, and when did he become aware of them?).

    After only some minor searching I couldn’t find any purely informational articles giving the facts that I’m looking for (above). (In fact, even in the most anti-Trump articles, I struggled to find any quotes from Trump that sounded like actual incitement to me, even as out-of-context as they were trying to be. But I did find a few quotes of him directly denouncing any/all violence, and encouraging them to depart in peace. But I don’t know when those denouncements went out.)

    For extra credit, if anyone can compare this to the time-delay of any statements from Dem leaders condemning the violent BLM riots etc, I would be curios.

    #1936861
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant
    #1936862
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    How about listen to what the people who engaged in this riot about what they thought they were doing. Seems clear enough they thought Trump, Hannity, Cruz, and others had their back. Guess calls to prosecute them by those same people who first incited them to riot is not the biggest sellout in history. But this is what aligning yourself with Trump results in. Loyalty with him goes one way.

    #1936863
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Sure can

    Though it helps to know the backstory

    A good starting point is an npr story entitled “On Far-Right Websites, Plans To Storm Capitol Were Made In Plain Sight”

    AFTER you understand the back drop (whcih TRUMP knew about remeber he is a busy tweeter)

    here is a breif timeline (I posted this on another thread in answer to a simmiler question)

    On January 7 (when the outcome was inevitable) and people were in Washington for the planned for violence, what did he do. did he protest the result but encourage calm like a normal person?
    No of course not, he hates the country far too much for that, instead he further inflamed his supporters and threw his loyal VP on the bus by demanding of him an act he had to have known was illegal and impossible. Naturally this further inflamed the masses

    The crown shouted “”Fight for Trump! Fight for Trump! Fight for Trump!”” – remember the crowd that arrived planning violence. What did Trump do, did he urge peaceful protest.? No of course not He said “Thank you” and He further inflamed tensions with “We will never give up. We will never concede.” “Our country has had enough. We will not take it anymore, and that is what this is all about.”

    AFTEr the rioting started Trump still Encouraged them calling them ““These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long,”” before telling them to go home
    These are not the words of someone who condemns violence .

    compare his speech before to his concession speech. THAT was a normal speech. compare the difference in tone.

    Note there was no real practical change that occurred Jan 6-7 in Congress. The result wasn’t in doubt. The change is Trump realized his legacy is now in tatters with even the GOP saying he should be removed.

    It isnt the media. The GOP senate understood Trump’s speech for what it was . IF you think all of them, all the rioters, and all of us got it wrong, and only you and a few others understand how poorly misunderstood innocent Trump was.

    I’m not sure what you mean by “actual incitement “. No he never said “OK let’s storm the Capitol” But he did egg on a group that came in town planning to storm the capitol

    hope this helps

    #1936864

    Very good question. We need to always to look at original text.
    ABC news has a full text of Trump’s speech
    titled: trump-told-supporters-stormed-capitol-hill and story id is 75110558

    #1936891
    yaakov doe
    Participant

    Rudy Guiliani and Donald Trump Junior’s words were even more clearly incitement than Donald’s’ They should he held accountable for the 5 deaths that resulted from their rally.

    #1936900

    Well, Trumps’ speech was pretty long, but Twitter’s statement is pretty short (and Orwellian). They claim that these two statements are “glorification of violence” due to “context around them”.

    1) “The 75,000,000 great American Patriots who voted for me, AMERICA FIRST, and MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN, will have a GIANT VOICE long into the future. They will not be disrespected or treated unfairly in any way, shape or form!!!”

    2) “To all of those who have asked, I will not be going to the Inauguration on January 20th.”

    #1936917
    ujm
    Participant

    There was none.

    The claim there was doesn’t even pass the laugh test.

    #1936915
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Ubiquitin, is that legally incitement?

    #1936973
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    No, and for that reason the justice department said they weren’t pursuing it

    #1937021
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    The Justice Department will not mention they are pursuing Donald Trump until after Jan 20. Knowing what a maniac he is someone decided it is better to indicate they are not looking into him now.

    #1937050
    Health
    Participant

    YD -“They should he held accountable for the 5 deaths that resulted from their rally.”

    The only ones that should be held accountable is the Libs that started this attack on the Capitol.
    Starting with N. Pelosi and down.
    It was the Biggest Coup ever on the Executive Branch in the US government!

    #1937051
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Trump caused everything because of his gaiva by not accepting his loss.

    #1937082
    Health
    Participant

    RE -“Trump caused everything because of his gaiva by not accepting his loss.”

    Actually he won.
    They have been trying to get Rid of Trump even before the 2016 Election.
    They tried and tried, but to No Avail!
    So they decided to have Biden win the 2020 election with Massive Fraud.
    They were able to Silence the Courts about all the Fraud.
    When finally the US public was about to hear it in the Congress, they Staged a Riot for a Diversion!

    #1937096
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Health, if everyone says you are drunk, lay yourslelf down.

    #1937104
    emetemet
    Participant

    Time to stop listening to far right propaganda networks. They have been lying to you. The President is a coward and a fascist. He says he loves the people who smash their way into the Capitol, who place bombs at the RNC, who come to the nation’s capital with gun magazines. .. I am so done with the argument that this President loves all of us. He loves those who love him. They are mostly white. They took a Confederate flag into the Capitol. They attacked the Capitol police. This is making American Great Again? This is making America fascist, violent, white supremacist and scary again. This is my home. I am so upset and scared that this one man, this narcissist who doesn’t care about Americans, can undo a fair, secure, and safe election, and cause such violence in our Capitol and possibly on our streets. If these people were black, they would have been controlled so quickly you wouldn’t still be seeing them into the night. Remember Lafayette Park in the summer? Our fascist President used tear gas, low flying military helicopters, military outfitted unidentified thugs, and rubber bullets to give him the space to hold up a bible. Oh, and about being a coward. He can’t step up to these folks and arrest them for insurrection, violence, and destruction of public property. I hold him and all the enablers responsible for this desecration of our Capitol, our Democracy, and our Constitution.

    #1937121
    Health
    Participant

    Emetemet -“Time to stop listening to far right propaganda networks. They have been lying to you.”

    Time to stop listening to far LEFT propaganda networks. They have been lying to you!
    Go to my Topic “R.I.P. US of A.”
    Read the Truth there.

    #1937119
    The Shady Charedi
    Participant

    @ubiquitin
    That’s the best you’ve got?! You’ve got to be kidding me.

    What am I missing here?
    And nonetheless, Trump is being denounced by all sides, honorary degrees revoked, calls for impeachment, removal, resignation – really, what am I missing here!? There is basically no – zero – incitement here. In fact, when the protest began escalating towards becoming a riot, he indeed tweeted to urge people to “go home in peace”. But that tweet was removed by Twitter!

    The world has gone mad, upside-down. The liberal media is acting just like Lavan haRosha.

    Either I’m crazy, or this is Olam HaSheker.

    (If there is any incitement that I don’t know about, then again, please quote it verbatim here, with a time context preferably.)

    #1937120
    Health
    Participant

    RE -“Health, if everyone says you are drunk, lay yourslelf down”

    Who’s everyone?
    The Libs have been trying to get Rid of Trump even before the 2016 Election.
    If you had half a brain – you’d realize that the Right wouldn’t Start a Riot when Congress is debating and trying to deal with the All the Fraud!

    #1937156
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, and for that reason the justice department said they weren’t pursuing it

    Thanks for the honest answer.

    #1937162
    emetemet
    Participant

    Please get your head out of the cesspool of misinformation. You have been lied to over 22,000 times by Mr. Trump as he follows the demagogue playbook. Highly recommend a book that outlines all the similarities of the worst strong men in the world and how they got their power. See if you can honestly recognize any of Trumps techniques
    Strongmen: Mussolini to the Present by Ruth Ben-Ghiat

    #1937168
    DovidBT
    Participant

    I’m not American, so as a somewhat objective outsider, in my humble observation, the media reaction to the incident on the Capitol has been a ridiculous unprecedented tirade of anti-Trump propaganda. And the hypocrisy, by comparing their reaction to the beyond-comparison more violent riots over the last year, is outrageously astonishing.

    That’s absolutely correct.

    The Democratic “leaders” expressing outrage over the incident are ultra-hypocrites. They’ve been encouraging violent street rioting for years, including burning buildings, looting businesses and attacking the police. If anyone in authority deserves blame for the attack on the Capitol, they do.

    President Trump has consistently advocated for law and order and the arrest and prosecution of criminals.

    #1937177
    emetemet
    Participant

    Except Trumps mantra of law and order he somehow doesn’t think applies to him. Take a look at all the laws he has broken; tax fraud, emoluments clause, grift, not responding to subpoenas, obstructing justice, obstructing elections, inciting a mob and on an on. Yes, let him answer to the law and order of the US constitution

    #1937184
    Health
    Participant

    EM -“Please get your head out of the cesspool of misinformation”

    Why don’t You?
    The Libs have been trying to get Rid of Trump even before the 2016 Election.
    If you had half a brain – you’d realize that the Right wouldn’t Start a Riot when Congress is debating and trying to deal with the All the Fraud!
    It was the Left.

    #1937187
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    shady

    “That’s the best you’ve got?! You’ve got to be kidding me.”

    Yeah, its pretty bad. and no I’m nto kidding hte Presdient really told his Vice PResident to disregard the Constituion and tricked many of his followers into thinking they could overturn the election.

    Terrible I know. Definitely impeachable,
    although probably not technically legally incitement

    I think you are missing the context . Otherwise I don’t know what you are missing

    The plan was to “overturn the lection” with violence if needed.

    Trump had his day in court (and again and again and again…) There was nothing left to do but certify the vote that had been decided by the electoral college

    Instead Trump tricked and manipulated his followers into believing they could overturn the lection. This was impossible to do (peacefully) he lied and tricked people into thinking Pence had a say in the matter. He threw his loyal VP who stood by him in thick and thin right under the bus and sent a bunch of his crazed followers after him. He did not call for peaceful protest. He egged them on, even AFTER the rioting when he said “go Home in peace” he still called them (the rioters) “patriots”

    The start of that tweet was ““These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long,”” If thats isnt condoning I dont know what is? You ask “what am I missing” you keep missing the context. Saying “Ok everybody good job I’m proud of you , but now its time to go home” (not a verbatim quote but that IS the gist) is NOT condemning

    Reminds me of the scene in Fiddler on the roof when the constable who brings his men along to a pogrom yells “enough” after the the destruction.
    Trump supporters would view him as a good guy , I guess after all he said “enough” ??

    and again it isnt just the liberal media. Senator Toomey, Murkowski. Pence Reportedly considered tenacting the 25th. Several cabinet members resigned . Ari Fleisher Chris Christie who had been constantly been defending him have no condemned him

    I understand that when truth comes from the media, many like waving their hands and favoring “alternative facts” with the magic words “fake news” that just makes facts change. But this isnt just the liberal media

    #1937190
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I realize my pending post is

    really just a repeat of my previous post, Sorry for the repetition.
    But this is so obvious to me that I have a hard time understanding how you (or anyone) does NOT see it as incitement.

    So please help me understand. what do you think the point of the rally was , what were they trying to accomplish?
    What was Trump trying to accomplish by egging on same rally, and feeing them lies that he had to have known weren’t true) ?
    what did he mean when he told the group “walk down to the Capitol…fight much harder…. You’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength and you have to be strong” What was he telling them to do?
    What did he mean when he said “Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us”

    Thanks I’m trying to understand how Trump can be viewed as innocent

    #1937199

    The point of the rally was to show the GOP establishment that they are united behind trump, we won’t be silenced by bigtech, and anyone in the GOP in wants any sort of political future better get up and demand transparency. Now what exactly could trump have wanted from pence? If it wasnt constitutional, what are you concerned about? Pence wouldn’t have been able to actually do anything. And if it was constitutional, then why is it an impeachable offense?

    #1937200
    johnklets
    Participant

    Ubic,

    Do you realy think that trump is so dumb that he sought he can overturn an election by violent protest ? Do you realy think that he realy wanted a violent cup to overthrow the regime ? Than why had he not continued to incite his people for bigger and bigger protest in al cities like the BLM ?

    Reb Eliezer,

    Why you call yourself Reb Eliezer ? And who are you to decide who is drunk ?

    #1937202
    Amil Zola
    Participant

    Ubiquitin, you raise a valid point. What was the purpose of the rally? What was the purpose of people marching down to the Capitol? What do they think this march would accomplish? The Senate and House were in session, fulfilling a constitutional mandate.

    #1937210
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Thanks I’m trying to understand how Trump can be viewed as innocent

    There’s a huge gap between being “innocent” and incitement.

    #1937212
    johnklets
    Participant

    Ubic,

    Replying to your second post.

    Your wish to understand Donald Trump meaning by saying this and that is just not possible, bacause he himself was not thinking so deep when he said this and that, so now go learn pshat and shiur iyun in his words when he himself just said what comes up first. He poshut wanted to make a matzav about his claims and wanted to show that he has a big support for his claims and he has all the right to do so. Despite his nature of shooting out words he did not call for any violence and he sent them home after it turned violent. Maybe he could have sent them home earlier but what a difference was this from the riots of the BLM and from the reaction of Democratic politician and leaders. Simple as simple.

    #1937213
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    TVP

    the problem is that doesnt hold up under the slightest bit of Scrutiny

    Where the people there to show they were ” united behind Trump” confused when Giuliani called for “Trial by combat” ?
    Can you provide a quote from any speaker calling for “transparency”?

    “Now what exactly could trump have wanted from pence? ”
    a few points 1) Trump doesn’t have the first clue abotu the constituion as is clear everytime he mentions it (eg “I have this great Article II that nobody talks about” or when first running ands asked what kind of justices he’d nominate ““[justices] would look very seriously at her email disaster.”” ) So Trump wanted PEnce to hand him the elction, he didnt understand that Pence cant’t
    2) The point wasn’t Pence at that point, he told it to the crowd, remember. He wanted to egg on the crowd. To trick them into thinking there was still la chance if only they would “fight much harder”
    And it worked ! there are several reports of protestors calling for Mike PEnce to be hanged Lin Wood (Trump’s former (?) lawyer ) called for

    so to answer your question
    “what are you concerned about?
    1) I’m concerned that the President doesnt have a basic understanding of the constituion
    2) Im concerned that the President told his VEEP to disregard the constitution (the fact that he couldn’t doesn’t make it better I don’t really get the logic there
    If Trump said ok “No more Free Speech for liberals” while legally it would mean nothing it should still concern you
    3) I’m concerned that he manipulated the crowd into thinking they still stood a chance if they “showed strength”

    #1937230
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    john

    “Do you really think that trump is so dumb”
    Yes he clearly has had a breakdown, Several advisors and Supporters have been saying it for months. ask Mulvaney who knows him better than both of us.
    HE either was so dumb that he thought it would work, or was so dumb that he didn’t realize what would happen. or a combination Regardless that doesn’t change anything IVe said.

    you tell me then what did he want to happen when “walk down to the Capitol…fight much harder…. You’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength and you have to be strong””
    what did he mean when he said he hopes Pence comes through for us?

    Again Obviously a peaceful lrally is fine, even great if he said what the said Thurs night “Now Congress has certified the results, and the new administration will be inaugurated on January 20. My focus now turns to ensuring a smooth, orderly, and seamless transition of power.”” which was JUST AS TRUE Wed (just change “has certified ” to “about to certify” )
    again there was ZERO chance of Congress not certifying
    He could add he thinks it was stolen, but he respects the rule of law, hopefully there will be greater transparency in future election etc etc that would be a whole other story
    So what was he trying to accomplish

    #1937240
    johnklets
    Participant

    Ubic,

    I am saying again, he was not trying to accomplish anything besides making a matzav and get his point across. He did not think to much when saying out each word he said which you are trying to learn pshat. He just did not think so deeply. He certainly knew that he will not accomplish anything and that Pence cannot or will not overthrow the results. If he had a nervousbreakdown that caused him to be dumb as you predict than he is for sure not responsible for his words because he has a din as a shoteh and should have been hospitalised long ago. Trump is Trump, he is not stupid though he has a character, he always uses many words which he is not thinking deep about the meaning of the words. In my mind he did a lot for the country and is not deserving to such a treatment, he is a victim from the media and the democrats because of his outstandig character and straight forward undiplomaticaly war on the Liberal agenda.

    #1937246
    jdf007
    Participant

    The media never gives you anything other than their opinions. What I see is this. There has been 4 or 5 other riots just this week, not in DC. This effects common folks.
    The riots you mentioned over the last year, where cities were declared “total losses”, that only effects people like me or people I know.

    People protesting inside a public building that’s where all the reporters hang out and people think they’re royalty? IMPEACH….IMPEACH.
    We’re all supposed to be concerned and care more about rich people in DC than everyone else and what they have to go through in this country. That’s the problem.

    #1937250
    The Shady Charedi
    Participant

    @ubiquitin
    Wow, are you just trying to troll, or are you really so stupid to actually believe the things you’ve written here?

    Again, from all the news sites out there, can anyone, anyone, find these news sites actually quoting Trump with any incitement to violence?? This is not a big ask. All the lib news claim it, but none show it.

    And, @ubiquitin, if this is the most intense incitement you can string together – (your quote) “walk down to the Capitol…fight much harder…. You’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength and you have to be strong”” what did he mean when he said he hopes Pence comes through for us?” – then you, my friend, fail.

    #1937251
    ujm
    Participant

    “What was the purpose of the rally?”

    Expression of free speech.

    “What was the purpose of people marching down to the Capitol?”

    Exercise of constitutional rights under the First Amendment.

    “What do they think this march would accomplish?”

    Protest electoral fraud.

    #1937265
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    john

    ” He did not think to much…He just did not think so deeply…”
    so you agree he is dumb. that could be but that doesn’t change the reality of what happened .

    whether he has a din shoteh, that could be, All the MORE reason to enact the 25th amendment or impeach.

    The shady

    “Again, from all the news sites out there, can anyone, anyone, find these news sites actually quoting Trump with any incitement to violence??”

    I provided quotes. Note ote “your quote” these aRe Trump quotes.
    I know it is shocking to think The President encouraged his followers to go to congress and “fight” but that is literally what he did. “walk down to the Capitol…fight much harder…”
    sure you can ignore them, but don’t keep asking as if you are interested in replies

    ujm
    “Expression of free speech.”

    seems you didnt listen to the speeches. That was not mentioned by anybody as far as I can recall.
    I listened to several speeches and Read most of them.
    Strange to have a rally where the reason for the rally isnt mentioned, isnt it?

    #1937256
    Health
    Participant

    John – If really want to know the Inside Story of Coup against the Capitol –
    Just watch the beginning part of “Flashpoint” on the “Jan. 7”.
    I saw it on You-Tube.
    I’ll give you a hint – it wasn’t the Right wingers!

    #1937289
    Amil Zola
    Participant

    I dare say any of those people at the Capitol could have expressed their right to free speech in their own towns or state legislatures. And being the liberal I am sure expressing your rights under under the constitution could possibly mean smearing feces on the wall of a public building.

    See UJM you’ve yet to say what those people gained by defacing, our Capitol. Both houses were in closed sessions, that were covered gavel to gavel by any number of news orgs (across the spectrum). Do you think those people wanted to disturb the vote? To stop the vote?

    #1937333
    ujm
    Participant

    Amil, you’ve changed the goal post. The question I answered, that you asked, quote: “What was the purpose of the rally” that hundreds of thousands of supporters of the President of the United States of America came to Washington, DC on January 6. The answer, as I stated, was to protest — which we you know is an exercise of their constitutional rights under the First Amendment.

    Now you’re following up asking about the hundred or two hundred trespassers who illegally entered the Capitol. That’s not the question you asked that I answered.

    Don’t mix up the hundred thousand with the hundred.

    #1937328
    charliehall
    Participant

    “They attacked the Capitol police. ”

    THEY MURDERED A CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER!!!

    #1937331
    charliehall
    Participant

    “What do they think this march would accomplish?”

    Many openly said that their goal was to lynch Pence and Pelosi. Murdering a police officer wasn’t sufficient.

    #1937332
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Do you think those people wanted to disturb the vote? To stop the vote?”

    This was all planned. Stop the vote count. Prevent Biden from getting a majority of electoral votes. Either the House of Representatives makes Trump the winner or the compliant Republican Supreme Court rules the Presidential Succession Act unconstitutional and Pompeo is President. Basically a violent coup with a plan that could have easily succeeded. Bombs and other illegal weapons were found near the Capitol. This was Trump’s March on Rome. And just as many Italian Jews supported Mussolini, many American Jewa are supporting Trump’s attempted coup. They are traitors. As are certain commenters here. There was no “Antifa” involvement — Lin Wood’s famous tweet about two alleged Antifa people turned out to be two neo-Nazis. This coup was entirely Trump supporters including QAnon promoters, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hatemongers who are Trump’s base.

    Biden won the elecion and it wasn’t even close. Democrats will now have majorities in both houses of Congress. Trump will liikely spend the rest of his life in prison which is where he and his violent supporters belong; the only question is which state will get to try him first. The only question is whether the Republicans will have the courage to prevent him from running for another term in 2024 — they can do it by voting to convict him after impeachment.

    #1937372
    johnklets
    Participant

    To Ubic, Charlie, etc.

    At this point i will stop discussing this topic here, i think there is no point in endless discussions.

    Just keep on seeing things as you wish, and don’t get distracted by facts.

    At the end of the day we all wait for moshiach, not Trump nor Biden will help us.

    Besuroth Tovoth

    #1937412
    eddiee
    Participant

    With all due respect, all I see now is that the social media platforms are using the excuse of “inciting violence” to suppress conservative free speach. One after another, they are scrambling to shut them down, and everyone is too scared to stand up to it. I am not referring to President Trump, although it is true for his rights too. There was no court that deemed him a danger, your opinions not withstanding.

    #1937453
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I find it odd that intelligent frum people can persist in saying thete were 5 deaths as a result of the riot. I believed it too until I looked into it in over 8 different sources (none being conservative). Sadly, Ithis will be bulldozed because it’s become “swallow the whole pill or admit you support the riot” , just as it has bern “support leftism otherwise you love trump and everything he does”. Thise are both false. They always have been. And i keep wondering how much time has to pass before the fog lifts and we can start having dialogue again.

    #1937470
    ujm
    Participant

    Syag, what is the real story about the five deaths?

    #1937474
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I contemplated mentioning what I found but I have learned that even if I said one of them choked on his grapefruit on the way to the airport it would be argued that that is legitimately a death caused by the riot so I’ll leave it to you to search, and search very well, and see what you find.

    #1937481
    ujm
    Participant

    When I heard three people died of “medical emergencies” I assumed the media was hiding something. A fourth was a suicide. And the police officer’s death is also very vaguely described.

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