What's wrong with the draft?

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  • #923905
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    2) The conscription of hareidim who are not learning full time is opposed by most gedolim since the army engages in systematic coercion aimed at forcing draftees to be substantially less frum in the hope that they will leave the hareidi community and become part of the mainstream of Israeli society – this leads to many hareidim who want to be baal ha-battim who probably would gladly serve if they felt the army welcomed them staying in yeshiva and working “under the table”.

    You believe the tail is wagging the sheep. I believe the sheep (leaving charadi society) is wagging the tail (refusal to allow any participation in a non- Charaidi enterprise, such as the army), even without direct intent to “assimilate”. Either way, we agree on this point.

    #923906
    yichusdik
    Participant

    1. The sense of entitlement of some here is truly astonishing, even after more than five years in the CR. Suffice it to say that assuming that the broad back of the Jewish people is yours to ride on while you choose to learn is a direct contradiction of a Rambam we have all seen many times. If someone chooses to support you, gezunder heit, learn 24/7. But when you are in a social contract with other Jews (never mind the hypocrisy of using the material benefits of any democracy while not contributing in an equal or even substantial material way to its well-being) you cannot assume they agree to your terms UNLESS THEY AGREE TO YOUR TERMS.

    2. Not one of the defenders of the Chareidi position in this discussion has touched the national service option. Doing Gmilus Chasodim, Bikur Cholim, helping the poor, educating the unlearned – these are potential options that the “treife” state is prepared to offer as alternatives, in a manner acceptable to almost all, but you won’t touch these mitzvos with a ten foot pole. It thus seems that your shrill denunciations of the IDF are a straw man, because you won’t consider kosher alternatives, either.

    3. There are still those who think that secular Israelis and the government in particular are out to “shmad” Jewish souls. Please. You inflate your importance to the average secular Israeli and the average government employee. He simply doesn’t care. He has many other priorities ahead of your spiritual despoilment. Where he does care about you is if you are infringing on his rights, or if you are not carrying a commensurate burden to what he carries.

    4. Nisim happen because Hashem wants them to happen, not af al pi ken when Jews are not following Hashems plan. We have had nisim gluyim for over 60 years in E’Y. We wouldn’t have a Jewish state and a Jewish army if HKBH didn’t will it. At what point do you recognize HKBH’s will? after 70 years? 100? 200? never? Where do you get the gaiva to ignore it?

    #923907
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    yichusdik: You have not dealt with my reasons Ki Hu Zeh (which do address national service). I believe they are valid and correct.

    #923908
    Englishman
    Member

    “1… while not contributing in an equal or even substantial material way to its well-being) you cannot assume they agree to your terms UNLESS THEY AGREE TO YOUR TERMS.”

    They ARE contributing. Learning is the greatest contribution. Even if they don’t recognize that fact. AND they DID agree to the terms of Chareidi exemption from service. Ben-Gurion agreed to it with the Chazon Ish. And it remains current law.

    “2. Not one of the defenders of the Chareidi position in this discussion has touched the national service option. Doing Gmilus Chasodim, Bikur Cholim, helping the poor, educating the unlearned – these are potential options that the “treife” state is prepared to offer as alternatives, in a manner acceptable to almost all…”

    Don’t talk that into yourself. They are NOT offering those options as national service. They will not offer Bikur Cholim as an alternative to joining the military.

    “3… He has many other priorities ahead of your spiritual despoilment. …”

    Many of those in elective power and many in the media would like nothing more than change our hashkofos. Perhaps they wont outright say as much, but that is part of their motivation.

    “4… We wouldn’t have a Jewish state and a Jewish army if HKBH didn’t will it…”

    And we wouldn’t have had a holocaust oh HKBH didn’t will it. That too was a neis.

    #923909
    yichusdik
    Participant

    GAW, if the answer is to be yoishev yechidi, so be it. But do it somewhere where you don’t take without giving.

    #923910
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Englishman/Joe: You have lost the right to be part of the conversation. So sorry 🙂

    #923911
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The chilonim are the czar, and the dati are the chappers.

    #923912
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    GAW, if the answer is to be yoishev yechidi, so be it. But do it somewhere where you don’t take without giving.

    And the government certainly has the right to cut back on giving if they so desired. It is not the fault of the Charadim who take what is being offered, rather it is the fault of those who offer it and sell themselves for votes.

    True that the Charaidim will protest if there are cutbacks, but so what? They don’t have the power to do anything more than protest IF the government got its act together.

    #923913
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    What did the Charedi population in the US do when there was a draft?

    #923914
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    What did the Charedi population in the US do when there was a draft?

    I’ll teach you something about debating. You shouldn’t ask a question unless you know the answer.

    The American government, like most civilized societies, exempts people learning in yeshiva to be a rabbi from the draft.

    #923915
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    What did the Charedi population in the US do when there was a draft?

    The US doesn’t have any real “Charadim” like in Eretz Yisroel. They have Chassidish (who mostly work), Lakewood (who mostly end up working, and don’t listen to BMG (the “Gedolim”) either way, as proven by the Christie election), and “Yeshivish” (who went to a Jewish Yeshiva). Those who do learn get an exemption, just like any other divinity student (4D).

    #923916
    Mediziner
    Member

    America, during Vietnam, granted religious seminary exemption to religious students. It also granted exemptions to those in regular Universities. And many people got medical exemptions.

    #923917
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The American government, like most civilized societies, exempts people learning in yeshiva to be a rabbi from the draft

    So the US draft board would draft people and suddenly notice that almost everyone in a place called Lakewood, NJ is studying to be a Rabbi

    #923918
    benignuman
    Participant

    “Being a soldier also requires other Jews to pay for your living expenses.

    Learning full time is providing full time protection to other Jews.”

    Kovod, I was explaining why learning full time was different than wearing tzitzis, not why it was different than army service.

    We believe that learning torah provides protection, but we also believe that soldier’s provide protection. The reality is that we (and every Jewish army in history) require both. The Hesder program of the religious zionists does exactly that. What is unfair about the Chareidi position is that they are not risking their lives but the Daati and the Chilonim are. Both groups are providing protection but only one group is ready to make the ultimate sacrifice for the safety of Am Yisroel.

    #923919
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    ZD: Except they aren’t, as I pointed out earlier. Most people in Lakewood work for a living.

    #923920
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Ultimataely this debate wont matter anyway.

    The Charedi population has a much higher birth rate than everyone else and shortly they will be the majority of the population in Israel (no more than 50 years from now) and either they will go to the Army and fight or they will become citizens of Palestine

    #923921
    akuperma
    Participant

    zahavasdad “What did the Charedi population in the US do when there was a draft?”

    Even during the war (that tells you my age, since anyone who say “the war” is referring to World War II) – all yeshiva students were exempted. This being a war where the consequences of defeat would be very ominous both for Jews and the country – and remember that the Germans were operating in places like the coast off Long Island and they were building batteries in Brooklyn.

    While there weren’t all that many Orthodox Jews in America 70 years ago, and draft boards had discretion in who they drafted, those that did serve in the army has a hard time though one should note that most people who belonged to Orthodox shuls at the time were not Shomer Shabbos and had standards of kashruth we would consider unacceptable (and those with strict standards were likely to be in yeshiva or to have a family). It should be noted that for the most part, military service in the American army correlated with a sharp decline in level of observance (which is probably why the 1950s were the “golden age” of Reform and Conservative).

    While it never was an issue for Jews, America historically exempts persons who have a religious objection to serving in the military.

    Most western countries consider it to be human rights violation to do otherwise.

    A more interesting question would be on service of Jews in World War I, particularly in the Hapsburg’s army, where there was a fairly high level of support for service by, and accomodation of, religious Jews (remember, they were fighting the Czar who was a notorious anti-semite).

    #923922
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    GAW

    Most people I know in Lakewood do not work (The wives do work and some even commute to Brooklyn) and they joke how they are a “Programmer”

    #923923
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Most people I know in Lakewood do not work (The wives do work and some even commute to Brooklyn) and they joke how they are a “Programmer”

    Anecdotal evidence? You just know the wrong people.

    #923924
    mdd
    Member

    PBA, drei nit ken kup! If 10% of US population were Yeshivah students nobody would exempt all of them. Also. if they were all on wellfare, what would happen?!? Stop twisting things!

    #923925
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Don’t drei yourself a kup. I wasn’t the one who brought it up. Zdad brought it up, evidently having no idea of the law here. I didn’t twist anything.

    #923927
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Englishman, or Joe, or whoever you are – you wrote:

    “They ARE contributing. Learning is the greatest contribution. Even if they don’t recognize that fact. AND they DID agree to the terms of Chareidi exemption from service. Ben-Gurion agreed to it with the Chazon Ish. And it remains current law.”

    I said in a material way. You are answering something different. Nation-states must operate on objective criteria, such as taxes, votes, GDP, revenues, expenses, budgets, otherwise you get failed states like Afghanistan and Congo. If Israel turned into a failed state with a ruined economy because the government was measuring spiritual credit in figuring out its budget, there would be no more subsidies available for yeshivaleit, draft or no draft.

    As far as the law is concerned, over 60 years, governments change, laws change, and facts on the ground change. Do you truly have so little understanding of demographic, economic, and political reality? I think, actually, you understand just fine, but are just obfuscating.

    When I was a teenager, my US born friends in yeshiva had to register for the draft. But the law changed. The Americans have a constitution too, and even they have amended that several times. Less than 30 years before the agreement between Ben Gurion and the Chazon Ish, women where I live did not have the vote. That law changed too. When the law you speak of was enacted, there were a couple of thousand learners involved, and now the number is in the high tens of thousands, or more. And when the Supreme court strikes down a law, or the legislature enacts a replacement, It is the law no longer.

    “Don’t talk that into yourself. They are NOT offering those options as national service. They will not offer Bikur Cholim as an alternative to joining the military.”

    I beg to differ. I have had this conversation with MKs and with Israeli political leaders and diplomats personally, and with many secular Israelis who are prepared to tell their elected representatives to pursue these options, and I am also aware of the options for national service currently being used by National Religious young women instead of army, and such work in hospitals, schools, with the aged, with new immigrants, is precisely what they are doing right now. And what a wonderful opportunity for kiruv, too! so sad you ignore it.

    “Many of those in elective power and many in the media would like nothing more than change our hashkofos. Perhaps they wont outright say as much, but that is part of their motivation.”

    Forgive me if I rely on reality – they don’t care enough about your hashkofa to want to change it, except where it interferes with their freedoms or demonstrates what they perceive as inequality. You are spouting an antiquated world view, as if you hadn’t actually talked to a chiloni Israeli in the last 70 years. In Israel, secular “ideology” is all but dead. Look at Meretz, and how it has done in elections. Social protests as big as they are are about issues, like housing and education, rather than about socialist indoctrination.

    “And we wouldn’t have had a holocaust oh HKBH didn’t will it. That too was a neis.”

    I don’t know if I would call it a Neis, but it certainly was a part of HKBH’s ultimate plan. But I will leave it to others to judge the abhorrence of the comparison of the annihilation of 6 million Jews to the events which have allowed the largest number of Jews in history to learn and to live halachic Jewish lives.

    #923928
    Englishman
    Member

    Yichus: Spiritual contributions are at least as necessary and beneficial for a nation-state (and is actually a greater benefit than material support.) Without the spiritual necessary components they will turn into a failed state much quicker than if they are lacking some material necessities. And the fact is currently the nation-state of Israel is more in need of additional spiritual benefits than material benefits. We should be seeking to add more spirituality among the populace; the material needs are sufficiently being covered and taken care of as is. They are not in need of more soldiers than they currently have; they are in need of additional Torah scholars.

    #923929
    Health
    Participant

    yichusdik -“I said in a material way. If Israel turned into a failed state with a ruined economy because the government was measuring spiritual credit in figuring out its budget, there would be no more subsidies available for yeshivaleit, draft or no draft.”

    You’re right, when Israel fails – only then can they renege on their deals. Until then Torah learners are doing more than gun shooters!

    “As far as the law is concerned, over 60 years, governments change, laws change, and facts on the ground change.”

    The only thing that has changed is the avg. Israeli citizen who doesn’t believe in Zionism anymore. They just want to live like a Western Goy -so they don’t want to pay taxes that supports some religious Jew. They should move to Uganda. Oh that’s right they all are dying to come here to the US. The only ones that still believe in the Zionist ideals are the MO or Mizrachists. They should serve in the army, not the Charedim.

    “I beg to differ. I have had this conversation with MKs and with Israeli political leaders and diplomats personally, and with many secular Israelis who are prepared to tell their elected representatives to pursue these options, and I am also aware of the options for national service currently being used by National Religious young women instead of army, and such work in hospitals, schools, with the aged, with new immigrants, is precisely what they are doing right now. And what a wonderful opportunity for kiruv, too! so sad you ignore it.”

    Maybe your Mizrachi politicians said this, but the Defense Minister Barak and the head of the commitee Plesner said this won’t be an option for most Charedim. Stop living in your MO Zionist dream world. Just be happy you can serve in the army acc. to your community – so you don’t have to sit and learn all day which is very hard mentally.

    #923930
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Englishman – apples and oranges. I don’t disagree with your statement that Israel needs spiritual capital as well as material capital, only with how it is distributed, and with the assumption that they are mutually exclusive. They aren’t for talmidim in Hesder Yeshivos, nor for those frum Jews doing sherut leumi.

    Health – you and I have gone around and around on this a million times. I’m not going to change your mind, and you won’t change mine. But I would like to clarify for you that I’ve had opportunity to talk with Politicians from across the spectrum over the years, including Shimon Peres, Bibi, Yitzchak Herzog from Labour, Natan Sharansky when he was an MK and minister with Yisrael B’Aliyah, Yael Dayan from Meretz, Ehud Olmert from Kadima, and many others. At the time I discussed these matters with many of them, they were all open to alternative suggestions, provided the commitment was made for some kind of service, be it in Chareidi units in the IDF, chareidi affiliated Hesder yeshivos, Sherut work in hospitals, schools, and absorbtion centers, etc. The fact that Plesner came back so harshly is at least in large part due to the rejectionist approach of most of the chareidi leadership to even discussing possible alternatives.

    #923931
    Avi K
    Participant

    It is a mitzva for every able-bodied Jew to serve in the Israeli army in some capacity, even those who have exemptions in non-emergency cases.(Rambam Hilchot Melachim 7:4). Even women should do some support work (ibid with Ridbaz). If someone is really learning (and not just listed) he might be given an exemption but really he should begin every day with a statementthat he is learning for the success of the Army. One cannot compare Israel in its present situation to America even during WW2.

    #923932
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    It is a mitzva for every able-bodied Jew to serve in the Israeli army in some capacity, even those who have exemptions in non-emergency cases.(Rambam Hilchot Melachim 7:4)

    lol

    I do hope you’re amusing yourself also. I wouldn’t want to laugh at your expense.

    #923933
    akuperma
    Participant

    note that in the quote: “It is a mitzva for every able-bodied Jew to serve in the Israeli army in some capacity, even those who have exemptions in non-emergency cases.(Rambam Hilchot Melachim 7:4)” – the Rambam no where says that “Israel” means any state with many Jews in it that happens to be in Eretz Yisrael, and that vigorously denies any connection to the Jewish state that existed in Eretz Yisrael in ancient times. He is talking about a malchus established based on Torah – not one that rejects Torah as the source of law and is based on non-Jewish law. While many religious zionists hope that Medinat Yisrael might become a Jewish state, the vast majority of Israelis and especially those who run Eretz Yisrael reject the idea.

    If Medinat Yisrael were replaced by a Jewish state, one that stated that its law was Torah (i.e. its Supreme Court consisted of scholars who would declare laws unconstitutional for being against Torah), and one that asserted that it was the successor to the ancient state — then it might be shailoh. But as long as the mainstream zionists insist that “Medinat Yisrael” is not a Jewish state but only a “Democratic” state in which many Jews live, it isn’t even worth debating.

    #923934
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    akuperma: The problem is that religious Zionists hold that the Medina IS the halachic successor of the Kingdoms of Yisrael & Yehudah. Once you disagree on that point, everything else diverges as well.

    What the Medina is in Halacha actually is a decent question. From Satmar (The Devil Hees-self) to RZ (Reshit Smichat Geulatenu), the span of shittos is extremely wide.

    IMHO (and I am aware tiny me doesn’t have a seat at the table of Giants), we could probably learn something from the shittos as per what status the Chashmonai regimes had, which were also not Al Pi Halacha and “rejected Torah as the source of law”. I have a feeling (and some basis) that it would be a Machlokes Rishonim. However, no one thinks that it had the dinim of Malchus similar to that of Shaul & David HaMelech.

    #923935

    I know I’m late to the game, but there’s a couple of points that have been brought up here that I’d like to address:

    1)The Charaidim should serve in the army out of hakaroa hatov, to “give back” to the State.

    According to that logic, why shouldn’t all those of us living in America have to enlist in the US Army to sow our hakaros hatov to America?

    2) It is hypocritical for the Charaidim to take government aid while not serving in the army.

    First of all, one must realize that there are two major groups/ideologies within the Charaidim: The Badatz and the Agudah. The Badatz believes that due to its utter lack of respect for Hashem and his Torah, the Medina is inherently evil, and that cooperating with it in any way is shituf li’minus. Therefore they do not accept any government aid, vote in elections, etc.

    The Agudah holds that while the Medina is not run al pi Torah right now, one should try to work within the system to try to improve it (ie, vote for the Charaidi parties.) Since they do not hold that one may not give any legitimacy to the State they take the aid that they, just like every other law-abiding, tax-paying citizen, are entitled to. However, they do not serve in the army (primarily due to bittul Torah, but also because they do not believe the Israeli Army is good environment for a Charaidi Jew to be in) so they, due to Israeli law, cannot work. The Israeli government made these rules; the Charaidim are just playing by them.

    3) Serving in the army is not bittul Torah because it is a mitzva

    We (= Rambam, Shulchan Orach, etc) hold that one should not stop learning to perform a mitzva she’efshar laasos al yidai acharim, a mitzva that can be done by somebody else. The chilonim are doing jus fine manning the army by themselves; they do not need any help from the Charaidim (or the Mizrach, for that matter). Therefore, al pi halacha there is no reason to stop learning and go to the army.

    #923936
    Health
    Participant

    yichusdik -“Health – you and I have gone around and around on this a million times. I’m not going to change your mind, and you won’t change mine.”

    The difference is you use every oppurtunity to put down Charedi Judaism. You saw this topic and seized the moment to curse us out with your propaganda. I only came to this topic to defend Charedi Judaism. I don’t look for every oppurtunity to curse out Mizrachists and/or Zionists.

    “But I would like to clarify for you that I’ve had opportunity to talk with Politicians from across the spectrum over the years, including Shimon Peres, Bibi, Yitzchak Herzog from Labour, Natan Sharansky when he was an MK and minister with Yisrael B’Aliyah, Yael Dayan from Meretz, Ehud Olmert from Kadima, and many others. At the time I discussed these matters with many of them, they were all open to alternative suggestions, provided the commitment was made for some kind of service, be it in Chareidi units in the IDF, chareidi affiliated Hesder yeshivos, Sherut work in hospitals, schools, and absorbtion centers, etc. The fact that Plesner came back so harshly is at least in large part due to the rejectionist approach of most of the chareidi leadership to even discussing possible alternatives.”

    Enough with your double talk and propaganda. You live there so you know better than me how that Gov. works. They have a coalition of MK’s that make up the Gov. This Gov. made a commitee to discuss extending the Tal law. This commitee fell apart -could be in part of this disagreement of whether Charedim can do alternative service or not. As of right now, the Defense minister said since there is no Tal law -he must now draft Charedim.

    You can only ask -“What’s wrong with them doing other services for the State instead of Army service?” if there is such a law.

    In this case our Gedolim might say Yes or they might say No.

    But what you are doing is finding fault with Charedim when such an option doesn’t even exist in Israeli law! I don’t care if you told me every MK in the Knesset would vote for this -I’ll believe it when I see it. Who do you think you’re fooling besides yourself with your posts? All politicians are liars and Israeli ones are also. How many politicians do you know kept all their election/campaign promises? So they all told you that over the years – so what? When they make it into law and the Charedim don’t agree even to that -then you can come here cursing us out. But I’m sure you’d be wrong because we do things because of Daas Torah and IF Daas Torah told us not to do Alternative service -they would have a good reason!

    #923937
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Health, though I have spent a lot of time in Israel over the years, and done a lot of work for Israel both there and abroad, I do not live there, never have, and never said so.

    Please cease using such intemperate words such as accusing me of “cursing out” the Chareidi community. I have never done so. Making the accusation makes you a liar, because you can check each one of my posts for years. I recognize serious problems in the chareidi community, yes. I have grave doubts about many problems in the chareidi community. But I make such criticisms as I have dafka because I know that there is strength and will and virtue in the community to rectify its issues, to eliminate hypocrisy, and stop hemorrhaging its young who cannot abide its contradictions any more. My roots in the chareidi community are at least as deep as those of mine in the Modern Orthodox community.

    As for national service, some options have been available for a long time, and these have been rejected for a long time.

    I do not use every opportunity to put down chareidi Judaism. There are any number of chareidi-critical topics here that I do not touch, and there are instances where I have agreed with you, or with Choppy, or with Akuperma.

    #923938
    Health
    Participant

    yichusdik -“As for national service, some options have been available for a long time, and these have been rejected for a long time.”

    They are rejected for the simple reason that they are Not law. The IDF has deals with the Mizrachists that they give them Frum army units and Sherut Leumi. These can be changed at will. Why should we trust them? They want to renege on their deal about sending Yeshiva guys to the army, so why wouldn’t they renege on this -if they felt like it?

    #923940
    Loyal Jew
    Member

    After generations of gedolim have spoken in once voice on this issue, I do not understand why it’s being debated. What happened to kechol asher yorucho?

    #923941
    Avi K
    Participant

    Kanoi, do you have others put on tefillin, daven, etc. for you so as not to be mavatel Tora? What about all those who are registered in yeshivot and kolelim but are not exactly learning every second?

    #923942
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Kanoi, do you have others put on tefillin, daven, etc. for you so as not to be mavatel Tora? What about all those who are registered in yeshivot and kolelim but are not exactly learning every second?

    No, no, don’t change the topic. We’re still waiting for you to explain how the Rambam holds that you have to be a soldier in the Israeli army.

    #923943
    Mediziner
    Member

    Avi: What about those in the Army that are not exactly fighting or training every second? They have down time and fool around too, you know.

    #923944
    yichusdik
    Participant

    popa, that question you asked Avi K gets in to another area – Rambam’s and other’s discussion of what constitutes a milchemes mitzvah, what constitutes a milchemes reshus, and what a milchemes chovah, as it is described in the rishonim. I don’t have all of the sources in front of me, so I will ask instead of state – if defending Jewish lives and land in eretz Yisrael proper is either a milchemes mitzvah or a milchemes chovah, does that obligate one to fight, or at least support the capacity to fight such milchamos?

    #923945
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    popa, that question you asked Avi K gets in to another area – Rambam’s and other’s discussion of what constitutes a milchemes mitzvah, what constitutes a milchemes reshus, and what a milchemes chovah, as it is described in the rishonim

    No, there are far more important preliminary questions before that: What is a melech? What is a jewish state?

    I don’t know whether there is a mitzva or not to be in the army. But I do know that citing that particular Rambam for it, without at least explicitly assuming the other premises, is some good blazing am haaratzus, of the kind I’ve come to expect.

    This guy would have us fighting with the hellenists against mattisyahu and call it a mitzva.

    #923946
    benignuman
    Participant

    I am confused by some of this discussion. Even if the current Israeli government doesn’t have the status of a Malchus Yisroel (something I find difficult to understand), the IDF is certainly saving Jewish lives and thereby engaging in one of the greatest mitzvos possible. We can argue about whether there is a chiyuv to join the army, but we can’t argue about whether serving in the army is a mitzvah.

    #923947
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Don’t change the topic. We’re discussing whether the Rambam proves that it is a chiyuv to join the Israeli army.

    #923948
    Leyzer
    Participant

    Loyal Jew said

    After generations of gedolim have spoken in once voice on this issue, I do not understand why it’s being debated. What happened to kechol asher yorucho?

    My response:

    I knew this was the Gedolim’s position. I started the thread in the hope someone could explain it.

    Are you espousing the attitude that [in general] one should trust everything the Gedolim have always said – to the point that one is not allowed to discuss their reasoning?

    NB. On a second, but related point, why is the Charedi Torah world in Israel so opposed to introducing any Chol studies at all into schools? What would be wrong with providing boys the tools with which to earn a living one day if Chas Vesholom they discover they cannot all remain in full-time learning for the rest of their lives? Surely this could be achieved with a small amount of Chol every day. It might also help to prevent burnout that comes with young boys attacking (or being attacked by) Gemorah all day, from age 9 to 19, and by the time Yeshiva comes around they have lost some of their initial enthusiasm…

    #923949
    5fivetowns
    Participant

    You don’t need to teach young children secular studies for the purpose of parnassa. You can teach them a vocation when they are older. They can learn a trade at age 18; they needn’t start at age 9.

    #923950

    benignuman:

    You said:

    We believe that the Torah provides protection but we also believe that the soldiers provide protection.

    and

    the IDF is certainly saving Jewish lives

    The Talmud Yerushalmi says:

    ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???’ ??? ???’ ??? ??????? ???????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ????????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??????

    ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ????????? ??? ??? ????? (?????? ???) ?? ?’ ?? ???? ??? ???’

    You said:

    the IDF is certainly saving Jewish lives and thereby engaging in one of the greatest mitzvos possible

    The mishnah says:

    ?????? ???? ???? ????

    #923951
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Derech: Great quote.

    #923952
    akuperma
    Participant

    Whether the IDF is saving Jewish lives is subject to debate. The contrary argument is that by having launched a avoidable war against the Muslims, they have endangered Jewish lives, and it is not a “milhemes mitzvah” but rather a “milhemes stus”. From this perspective, Hareidi Jews would be no worse off under an Islamic regime than under the zionist regime (and if that occured, we wouldn’t be dealing with a government that encourages mass abortion of Jewish babies, or engages on religious coercion on Jews to give up Torah and Mitsvos). Muslims historically tolerated Jews as long as we were content to be “second class citizens” which we usually were and in all fairness what we are in Eretz Yisrael.

    For some with the above view, the IDF should regard them as conscientious objectors and should make no attempt at conscription, and the only sanctions for non-service in the army should be those used against Israeli Arabs who don’t serve in the army.

    For those who disagree with the above, i.e., support the zionist state in spite of it being non-frum, there are still the issues of the relative importance of learning Torah versus playing soldier, and the issue of non-accomodation of religious practices in the IDF (which varies widely between units). These are separate issues.

    #923953
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Popa, agreed that the matter needs birur, and one can’t assume a priori that the Rambam Avi K quoted automatically applies.

    If I agreed with Avi K that it does apply automatically, I would have been there and serving in the IDF myself when I was younger (something I came very close to doing at the time). Though I didn’t ultimately decide to go, fortunately I found ways to work for the benefit and defense of am Yisrael and the state that I hope have been productive.

    Nonetheless, there is ample evidence in Neviim that there were good, not quite so good, and simply evil kings among Malchus Yehuda before churban bayis rishon. Until after Yoshiahu’s reign, though, HKBH did not withdraw his “hashgocho” on the war fighting and winning prerogatives of these kings. Some kings, such as the evil Achav of malchus Yisrael, were granted military victories despite the legitimacy or the halachic fidelity of the king.

    The following is admittedly speculative, and I am not attempting to tell anyone it is clear halocho. It is, however, reasonable.

    If I had to presume, I’d theorize that the current memshala falls somewhere in the middle on the scale of righteousness compared to these kings. Certainly not comparable to the righteousness of Asa, Yehoshafat, or Chizkiyahu, but not comparable either to Menashe or Amon, or Achav, for that matter. And if HKBH didn’t withdraw his national “hashgocho” on these despite their sins, I don’t think an inference of some degree of national hashgocho on the current memshala is unwarranted.

    The question of what is a Jewish state is a much harder one to analyze. I would say only this. Since RIshonim, Acharonim, and current halachic decisors have applied the interpretation of the concept of dina demalchusa dina to various forms of government – from kings and emperors to the oligarchies of Venice and Genoa, or the Lord Protector of revolutionary England, or the Committees of Public Safety in Revolutionary France, or the democracies of modern Western societies, There is an implicit recognition in halocho that “malchus” may mean “rule” or “government” more than it means literally “kingship”. How it is them applied as per hilchos milchomo is a harder nut to crack.

    #923954
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    yichusdik:

    I don’t agree with your analysis, but that is not really the point I am trying to make. The point I was making is that you certainly cannot just point at the Rambam without at least making your assumptions explicit. It’s being dishonest.

    #923955

    Can someone help me find that article within the past year here on YWN about the Israeli who was worried about Chareidim taking over the country and forcing the Chilonim into the diaspora?

    #923956
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Popa I agree and at least for myself, set out my reasoning for possibly considering the parameters of “rule” and the Jewish nature and divine hashgocho of a Jewish state in view of Rambam’s position as applicable. But as I said, as I’m not convinced 100% myself, I sure wouldn’t tell someone else it is the case.

    The arguments I’ve made in the past as to why IDF or national service is a fully shared responsibility have other sources and rationales. Some of them are moral and thus implicitly rather than explicitly halachic; others are consequential to living in and benefiting from a democracy.

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