What's wrong with the draft?

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  • #923957

    Yichusdik: In my opinion, the only difference (in terms of rishus) between the Israeli government and the kings is that the kings actually put up the avodah zara and encouraged people to do it. The Israeli government just makes it legal and what people do, they do. Although I don’t think it’s accurate to say that they don’t really encourage it…

    #923958
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Well, if you don’t see a difference between actively engaging in avodah zarah and encouraging people to do it on the one hand, and on the other hand spending money on supporting limud Torah – to even a small extent- while neither encouraging nor discouraging people from doing what they want within the law, where the alternative to frumkeit isn’t avodah zara, but rather apathy and doing little or nothing of ANY religious nature, so be it. But I see the differences as obvious and major.

    #923959
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Can someone help me find that article within the past year here on YWN about the Israeli who was worried about Chareidim taking over the country and forcing the Chilonim into the diaspora?

    The birthrate of Charedim is much higher than Chilonin and in about 50 years they will become the majority of the voting population

    As majority you can pass any law you wish including Torah Tax(Taxes to pay for yeshiva study) Malkos for disobeying Yom Tov, Skliah for breaking Shabbos etc.

    The Chilonim at that time can either decide to obey these laws and live within them or leave the country

    #923960
    Avi K
    Participant

    ???”? ????? ?????

    ??? ?

    ? ??? ???? ???? ?????, ??? ?? ????? ????. ????? ??? ????? ????–?? ????? ???? ?????, ?????? ????, ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????. ???? ?? ???? ?????? ?????–???? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ?????, ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??????? ??????? ?????.

    ??? ?

    ? ??? ????? ?????? ???????? ????? ??? ????? ??????, ?????? ?????. ??? ?????? ????–???? ??????, ????? ??? ????? ???? ??????.

    #923961
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    As majority you can pass any law you wish including Torah Tax(Taxes to pay for yeshiva study) Malkos for disobeying Yom Tov, Skliah for breaking Shabbos etc.

    The Chilonim at that time can either decide to obey these laws and live within them or leave the country

    Unless we pass a law that they can’t leave and have to keep the torah.

    🙂

    #923962
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Avi: I suppose you thought I hadn’t looked it up, and seeing it would convince me.

    #923963
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Unless we pass a law that they can’t leave and have to keep the torah.

    🙂

    That is possible then people will be forced to smuggle out of the country if they want to leave

    #923964
    akuperma
    Participant

    Avi K:

    So it is clearly a ????? ?????

    #923965
    benignuman
    Participant

    DerechHamelech and Akuperman,

    Are you seriously suggesting that the IDF is not preventing a wholesale slaughter of the Jews in Eretz Yisroel? Maybe if the Zionists had never returned, we could live in relative peace (i.e. just second-class citizens). But they did and now, 80 years later the only thing -outside of nissim which one cannot rely on- that is protecting the Jews of Israel is the IDF. The aggadata from the Yerushalmi is making a theological point, it is not suggesting that armies are unnecessary or somehow endanger the people they are designed to protect.

    When we say the zechus of Torah learning protects us we do not mean that it creates ananei hakovod to catch missiles. We mean that it provides the zchus that allows the IDF to be successful.

    Yes Talmud Torah is keneged kulam, but that is in terms of schar not in terms of what takes precedence. Would you hold that it is assur for a Ben Torah to be in Hatzoloh or Zakah? Is it assur for a Ben Torah to leave kollel to get a job to support his family?

    We are not suggesting kollelim should be abolished, chas v’shalom, nor are we suggesting that chareidim who serve in the army should not learn every day. We are merely suggesting that chareidim take some of the burden in risking their lives for the protection of their fellow Jews.

    #923966
    Englishman
    Member

    benig: Perhaps Rav Chaim Kanievsky should join Hatzalah. And Rav Shmuel Auerbach can be a policeman. And we’ll draft the Roshei HaYeshivos into the Army to be soldiers. After all, all those positions need to be filled and Rav Shmuel and the Roshei Yeshivos, too, ought to “share the burden” and “risk their lives to protect fellow Jews”, as you so elequently put it.

    Why should Rav Chaim be exempt?

    Whatever your answer to that question is, that is the same answer why the yeshivaleit and kollelleit should be exempt. For the same reason the Rav Shmuel Auerbach’s of the world ought to be exempt.

    There aren’t too many Rav Chaim’s in the world. And there aren’t too many kolleleit in the world. The number of men in kollel n Eretz Yisroel is a very small percentage of the Jewish male population of the State of Israel. We should actually increase how many men are in kollel. It would in fact be better to take some Israeli soldiers in the Army and tell them they no longer need to fight and they should instead join a kollel full-time. There isn’t a current shortage of able-bodied men in the Israeli Army. If they spare a few, they wont be short-staffed.

    #923967
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Englishman/Joe:

    See, if you were in the army, it would solve all problems, with your myriad screen names, you are an army of a few million!

    #923968
    akuperma
    Participant

    benignuman: “Are you seriously suggesting that the IDF is not preventing a wholesale slaughter of the Jews in Eretz Yisroel? “

    Actually, yes. In fact, they are guaranteeing one. As nuclear weapons become increasingly common in the Islamic world (Pakistan has them and Iran is getting one and those Arabs who distrust Iran are likely to be next), it is increasingly likely that someone will eventually manage to nuke Israel. While Israel has a second strike capability, revenge is a poor substitute for survival.

    The military solution won’t work. The Muslims will never accept a non-Muslim country in what they regard as their turf. They will accept, based on past and even current practices, a non-Muslim community that accepts that its the Muslim’s neighborhood and are content to be autonomous, i.e., accept being “second class citizens.”

    Hiloni Jews have a western ideal of civil and political rights. They also are very much into being libertines and other behavior that Islam (and not coincidentally, Judaism) can’t put up with. The hilonim dream they can offer bribes and lands and make the Palestinians go away, but the hilonim can’t offer to give up being part of Euro-American secular culture nor can they accept loss of political primacy.

    The Hareidim can make meaningful concessions to the Muslims (ban gays, close down the brothels, ban ribit, require modest clothing, etc.), and Hareidim can accept be an autonomous community within someone else’s country. Running the government has never been a priority for us. Only the Hareidim can make peace. Only the Hareidim can prevent the destruction of the Jewish communities of Eretz Yisrael.

    Of course, for those less worldly, the survival will be due to our support of Torah and Mitsvos. It certainly won’t be because of the IDF’s skills at schechting goyim.

    #923969

    benignuman: I have difficulty understanding that the Yerushalmi is not trying to make a practical point. It seems to me that it goes hand in hand with the Gemarah in Bava Basra

    ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???????

    …and because there seems to be a lot of Rambam on this thread: ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ????

    Who are you to say that the zchus of Torah only comes out through the army? Who knows how many countless plots were hatched but HKB”H foiled them because of the zchus of someone learning in Bnei Brak. Once the army is already in place, then Hashem might use it as one of His shluchim. But if not from this shliach, then from a different one.

    ?? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????

    I understand that you are saying that the point of the Yerushalmi is that armyies/gurads “destroy” because they cause people to think that it is the army that is protecting and not Hashem. But that’s only half of what it says isn’t it? Why are those that learn call the “guards of the city” if not that their Torah protects the city?

    When we say the zechus of Torah learning protects us we do not mean that it creates ananei hakovod to catch missiles.

    Is that so? Just because you can’t see them, doesn’t mean they’re not there.

    Would you hold that it is assur for a Ben Torah to be in Hatzoloh or Zakah? Is it assur for a Ben Torah to leave kollel to get a job to support his family?

    I would say that someone who is sitting and learning should not join Hatzolah because the zchus of his Torah is doing more than the Zakah volunteer. His zchus prevents people from getting injured/sick in the first place and for those who do get injured, his zchus brings the shliach refuah. The zakah volunteer is only a shliach.

    As to if its assur for a Ben Torah to leave kollel to get a job to support his family. The Rambam says:

    ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??????

    #923970
    mdd
    Member

    Akuperma, we are talking reality here, not Brisker-inspired fantasies.

    Derech HaMelech and Josef, I do agree that Torah is a very great zechus, but what about the Chilul HaShem shailah which I posed and explained before? Will you answer?

    #923971
    shmoel
    Member

    mdd: Derech HaMelech already answered your point. It isn’t a Chillul Hashem whatsoever that yidden do the right thing but the frei think it is wrong.

    #923972
    mdd
    Member

    Shmoel, as I explained that would aplly to us putting on teffilin. However, when they have a fair and reasonable ta’anah (which is even valid according to Halochah), we have to be worried about it.

    #923973
    shmoel
    Member

    Their taina is neither fair nor reasonable. You may think it is, but the Gedolim and common Jewish sense say otherwise.

    #923975
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Lets get our History straight.

    Yes the Medina exists.

    However the Chareid World at the time of the Medina’s founding was bitterly opposed to it and were prepared to oppose it on the World Stage as well Ben Gurion struck a famous compromise with the Chareidim which included the guarantee that Yeshivaleit would not be forced into the Army.

    So rwefusal of Yeshivaleit to “Serve” is no CH it is based upon the agreement that allowed the Zionists (who according to the secular BEn HEcht had a at least a passive role in the deaths of millions) to be able to have their State.

    Now the Zionists want to abrogate their part of thedeal, not the Chareidim.

    #923976
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    It seems to me that it is pretty interesting that no body has even tried to refute the substance of Akuperma’s quite logical posts, that the Chareidim are the one’s that actually have the capabilitie to make peace with the Arabs and once and for all stop the deaths of thousands of Yidden.

    And those who know history are also aware of the fact that historically Akuperma is correct.

    The one who came closest and actually almost pulled off a real peace deal, was the Chareidi emissary to the Arabs Dr De Haan, sadly the Zionists assanated him rather then allow him to complete his work.

    #923977
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    And no, the Chilonim have absolutley no interest in trying to force Chareidim to secularize.

    Trying to force Toldos Aaron to take down the MEchitza’s in the heart of Meah Shearim for Simchas BEis HaShoeiva is simply because of fairness.

    Forcing religous soldiers to listen as women sing is because they respect Halacha.

    Having Women dress provacativley and board buses in Chareidi neighborhoods and sit next to men is because they really want to tour Ezras Torah.

    And haveing Billboards with Women dressed immodestly placed in Chareidi neighborhoods is just another sign of how much Chilonim in ISreal want to live and let live.

    #923978
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Do Chesed?

    The Chilonim really want Chesed done?

    Then why insist that it be done uder the banner of Sheirut LEumi?

    If all Seculars cared about was “Sharing the burden” and Chareidim helping others then they should be lining up to learn from Chareidim how to do Chesed.

    The backbone of Chesed in Isreal is Chareidi.

    When the Mossad Director need surgery he turned to a Chareidi Medical Refferral orginazation.

    The Bikur Cholim in Isreal is phenomenol the backbone of it is Chareidi and the core is Satmar.

    Zaka is Chareidi, Hatzolah is Chareidi. The huge betwork of Gemachim are Chareidi.

    Now the secular’s want to teach us about Chesed?

    #923979
    dveykus613
    Participant

    Okay, I need to ask this – is everyone here for real? Even those who believe that an elite few top learners should learn, and the rest should go to the army, would not refute the fact that some of the GREATEST Talmidei Chachomim and learners and Da’as Torah are Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Rav Shteinman, Rav Auerbach, etc. – and every single one of them is saying that we have to fight this tooth and nail. So while I do not understand every aspect of why (and the chillul Hashem question, which would be a valid one if we did not have Da’as Torah), if the few holy people we have left who DO KNOW kol haTorah kulah or as close to it as anyone in our generation will get – who have true Da’as Torah – say it’s wrong – then no matter what we are chayav to listen to them – they are our mesorah! Just as we are chayav to be mekabel the Torah, and the Torah was given from Moshe Rabbeinu to Yehoshua to the Zekeinim etc etc – our Gedolim are the voice of Hashem and His Torah in our generation, and we are chayav to do naaseh v’nishmah!

    So while I am just as guilty of this, and am “mussar”ing myself as well with this statement – why are we wasting our limited moments in this world debating back and forth with our limited understanding of Torah or what “should” be done, when we could be filling our time with Torah learning, Tefillah, Mitzvos (eating can also be a Mitzvah with the right kavannos, as can talking with kids, one’s wife/husband etc etc – it’s all in how we do it and if we’re trying to get closer to Hashem with each thing we do) – talking (typing?) is just the yetzer hara’s way -in a “kosher venue” – to try to get us all to lose all our time that we could be building ourselves and others around us….

    Said my piece, would appreciate not getting bashed (though hopefully will not see it anyway) – am now going to go “fight the battle” (pun intended) by trying to live up to it! 🙂

    #923980

    Sorry it’s not easy to keep track of the posts.

    You are saying, if a person goes into a gvir’s house and demands that he be supported so that he could learn, that is a chillul Hashem.

    Here is the Chinuch:

    ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?’ ????? ??? ????

    ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??????

    As you can see, the only example he brings of an ish gadol doing something unseemly as a chillul Hashem is when it comes to a maaseh heter. However, we are talking about a mitzvah not a maaseh heter.

    I would say the same applies to having children. We aren’t mevatel mitzvos for the sake of chillul Hashem. It’s not a chillul Hashem when the question is a mitzvah. If you have any source that says otherwise, please put it on the table.

    Barring that, I would say that in the case of someone barging into a gvir’s house and demanding to be supported, that no, he hasn’t made a chillul Hashem.

    #923981

    lesschumras:

    Lesschumras’ post was deleted, as well as quotes of it

    Your question implies that Torah can’t protect. So here is the gemarah in Sotah 21a

    ?????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? (???? ?, ??) ?? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?????

    and later on the daf…

    ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????

    So obviously the zchus of Torah did protect them. So you have to say, as much as the zchus of Torah protected them, there was still that many more gzeiros out. But had it not been for the protection that they did have, it would have been all the more worse.

    #923982
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Lesschumras: that is apikorsus. Take a hike.

    #923983
    mdd
    Member

    Derech HaMelech and Joe-Shmoel, it is a beferushe Taz in Hilchos Talmud Torah. It should be around 242 in Y.D. He says that it is Chilul HaShem for a talmud chochom to demand money for his support. Besides, it is 100% obvious. It is not to you and your ilk, but then I have nothing to say to you (at least, on this forum).I hope you learn your lesson the easy way.I rest my case.

    Ben Levi, stop with the boba mayses, they would not have been able to stop the Zionists. Besides, the latter agreed to exempt and, maybe, support 400 yungerleit, not tens of thousands! Get it through your heads: it is not an inborn right of every Israeli Chareidi to be supported in kollel forever by the Israeli taxpayers! The frei hate the Chareidim, and, at this point, I do not 100% blame them — the Chareidim, partially, brought it on themselves.

    Dveykus, did Rav Kook and Rav Y.B. Soloveitchik know kol ha’Torah kulah? Would you accept everything they said?

    #923984
    mdd
    Member

    Ben Levi, yea, the Chilonim know nothing about Chesed. Just one example, they have been fully supporting all the Israeli Chareidim on welfare for decades!!

    #923985
    mdd
    Member

    Akuperma, Israel has the fifth-largest stockpile of nuclear weapons in the world. You can as well discuss abolishing France or UK. It is not 1930 anymore? Do you hear me?

    #923986
    shmoel
    Member

    mdd: 1) The chareidim in Kollel don’t get any money that is unavailable to chilonim in universities, etc. 2) akuperma’s point was that Israel could be nuked despite Israel’s own nukes. 3) Since you are taking a stand against many gedolei yisroel (some of whom have been named above) you need to back up your position with a godol. Please provide the name of a godol today who supports forcing Bnei Torah out of the Beis Medrash. Which godol?

    #923987
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Mdd, they have not been supporting charedim because of altruism.

    #923988
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    After the Mumbai terrorist attack the Holtzbergs if you remember got a huge state funeral in Israel. There was massive sympahy for the surving son (and the other son who lived in Israel) and the state promised to take care of them

    The Holtzbergs were not the only victims of the attack, there was a Satmar mashgiach who was staying at the Chabad house because he was on some supervision. He did not get a state funeral and the death went widely reported.

    Chiloni Israelis do appreciate very much the chessed of Chabad, The appreciate when they go abroad the Chabad houses are a welcoming site, the appreciate that Chabadnics will deliver Latkes to the Soldiers in Lebanon or will Blow Shofar for a loney Solider in the Negev.

    While they might be be Chabadnicks, the do appreciate all the chessed they do.

    #923989

    Avi K:

    One must stop learning to do the mitzvos of tefillin and davening because they are ei efsher laasos al yisay acharim; serving in the army is not.

    As for “those who are registered in yeshivot and kolelim but are not exactly learning every second”, somehow I don’t think it’s realistic to have them serve in the army only during whatever time they may be wasting. Therefore, having them serve in the army is still a problem of bittul Torah.

    benignuman:

    Again, there is no mitzva for the Charaidim to stop learning in order to protect their fellow Jews if the chilonim are able to do it just fine by themselves.

    mdd:

    akuperma’s point is actually quite a good one. Before 1948, when Arabs had no quarrel with us, we all lived together in relative peace and prosperity (not only in Israel, but all across the Arab lands). The problems began when the Zionists decided to create a state in the Arab lands, and the Arabs didn’t take too kindly to it. Therefore the argument could be made that the Israeli army is merely taking care of a problem that they themselves created, and should not be demanding the Charaidim’s help.

    dveykus613:

    +1

    #923990
    benignuman
    Participant

    Englishman,

    I will assume you meant if R’Chaim Kanievsky was 20 years old, because obviously soldiers need to be young and healthy. Not everyone can join hatzoloh but everyone can participate in mitzvos they do by donating money.

    Akuperman,

    I will even go so far as to admit of the possibility of an Arab state in E”Y that allows a Jewish minority to remain relatively free of harassment. But before that happens there will be weeks of bloodshed, and when the progroms start the Arabs won’t differentiate between Chilonim and Chareidim, they will kill, maim and rape all Jews.

    Derech HaMelech,

    We are not allowed to rely on nissim. We have to make hishtadlus to the utmost and rely on HKBH for the rest. If we just sat and learnt and did not have an army we should not be surprised if we were slaughtered. The Rambam you cite is clearly referring to exceptional individuals, people who are the exception not the norm.

    #923991
    benignuman
    Participant

    Derech HaMelech, you wrote:

    “We aren’t mevatel mitzvos for the sake of chillul Hashem. It’s not a chillul Hashem when the question is a mitzvah. If you have any source that says otherwise, please put it on the table.”

    See Yevamos 79a: Dovid HaMelech executes Shaul’s descendants for what Shaul did to the Givonim. The Gemara asks that it is assur min hatorah to kill children for their father’s crimes. The Gemara answers that R’Yochanan said “mutav sh’t’aker os achas min hatorah v’al yischallel shem shomayim b’pharhesya.”

    Further down the same amud the Gemara says that the bodies were strung up for a whole season. The Gemara asks that the posuk says that we cannot hang up a body overnight. The gemara answers that R’Yochanan said “mutav sh’t’aker os achas min hatorah v’yiskadesh shem shomayim b’pharhesya.”

    #923992
    mdd
    Member

    Kanoi, and if the Chareidim do not hold of them, they should not insist on living off them!

    Da’as Yochid, the Israeli wellfare system exists for altruistic reasons. They just do not want to support all the Chareidim in kollel anymore. Even the “evil” Yochanan Plesner suggested 20% of talmidim get exemptions.

    Shmoel-Joe, 1. A) An Israeli Chareidi in kollel gets much more money (after counting everything) from the Medinah than a college student; B) A college student is there for 4-6 years, a Chareidi is in kollel for live.

    2. US, UK and France also could have been nuked during the Cold war.

    3. A) Many of the American Gedolim would have paskened like I say if they were in charge there; B) There are ma’ases in Chazal in which people got punished for not rebuking Gedolim when they were doing something wrong. For starters, Avodah Zorah 18A. And Rabi Chanina was not even doing something which was befeirush ossur. His wife was chayav misa for not stopping him.

    #923993
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Da’as Yochid, the Israeli wellfare system exists for altruistic reasons. They just do not want to support all the Chareidim in kollel anymore. Even the “evil” Yochanan Plesner suggested 20% of talmidim get exemptions.

    So let them do so by passing a law! Until then, it is no different than taking a large mortgage deduction by taking out a bigger loan. A law, on the books, that is being exploited.

    #923994
    shmoel
    Member

    mdd: Genuk with your bubbe maisas. You were given multiple names of gedolim who support the current learning system in Eretz Yisroel. You were asked for the specific name of ONE GODOL who is against it and wants to force the Bnei Torah out of the Beis Medrash. You cannot produce the name of even one godol.

    It is daas baalei batim like mdd versus all the gedolim.

    #923995
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    mdd: Genuk with your bubbe maisas. You were given multiple names of gedolim who support the current learning system in Eretz Yisroel. You were asked for the specific name of ONE GODOL who is against it and wants to force the Bnei Torah out of the Beis Medrash. You cannot produce the name of even one godol.

    argumentum ad verecundiam is not acceptable, unless your name is Joe.

    Besides, no true Scotsman applies as well, and argumentum ad baculum.

    #923996
    Health
    Participant

    benignuman -“We are not allowed to rely on nissim. We have to make hishtadlus to the utmost and rely on HKBH for the rest. If we just sat and learnt and did not have an army we should not be surprised if we were slaughtered.”

    Why do you Zionists always twist the truth? Noone said -Not to have an army! They have an army and it’s probably bigger than they need! It could just be made up with Chilonim -they don’t need the Frumme!

    #923997
    Health
    Participant

    mdd -“Kanoi, and if the Chareidim do not hold of them, they should not insist on living off them!”

    This I agree with. Similar to Satmar’s Shitta -you shouldn’t take money for Yeshivos from them.

    “Shmoel-Joe, 1. A) An Israeli Chareidi in kollel gets much more money (after counting everything) from the Medinah than a college student; B) A college student is there for 4-6 years, a Chareidi is in kollel for live.”

    Since they are protecting the country with their learning they should get a lot more – much more than they get nowadays. And they should get it as long as they are in Kollel, it doesn’t matter if this is life-long -they are still protecting the Country. The more protection the better!

    #923998
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Papa, what I stated was simply the facts. Calling it apikorsis simply means you have no answer. Learning is not a guarantee against harm. And citing unknown gzeiros that didn’t happen is not proof.

    No, calling it apikorsus means it is apikorsus. We don’t need to discuss every possible blasphemy on this forum. We assume a certain agreement about the basics of judaism.

    Sorry, but it was. I was the one who deleted it.

    -95

    #923999
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    MDD

    You know that you seem to be ignorant of History.

    Facts are that the at the time of the Medinahs founding a united voice had to be ppresented to the World.

    Was it certain that if not the UN vote would be lost?

    No, but enough hung in the balance that the Chilonim agreed to the Compromise because of that.

    Also you still have neglected to acknowledge Akupermas points or such Historical Facts as the De Haan assanation or Ben HEchts Perfidy.

    As for the fact that the Chareidim are “Supported” fully by the Chilonim.

    That is another lie made up out of whole cloth by the Chilonim

    and they know it.

    First off the hard core anti zionists (Eida Chareidis, Brisk) take no funding from the government period.

    Secondly one of the biggest industries in the Medinah is Tourism and that industry as well is supported in great part by the Chareidim.

    Ever check out a list of the 10 wealthiest Isrealis , try it see how many are Chareidim.

    #924000
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Lc,

    An army isn’t a guarantee, but it’s still effective. No, we’re not guaranteed protection from harm (shema yigrom hachet), but Torah is still definitely protective.

    #924001
    akuperma
    Participant

    mdd: ” Israel has the fifth-largest stockpile of nuclear weapons in the world. You can as well discuss abolishing France or UK. It is not 1930 anymore? Do you hear me? “

    For Israel to destroy Islam, it would have to destroy close to 30 countries. If it kills a few, they’ll have to answer to the survivors. Unlike the 1930s, when France and the UK can close to destruction, destruction is much easier now. No need to march an army and fight house to house. All you have to do is drop a few bombs and let radiation do the rest. There are plenty of Muslims who can move in afterwards to dispose of the bodies and settle down. “Mutually assured destruction” doesn’t offer protection if one of the sides is a bunch of religious fanatics, or if one side is reasonable certain of surviving. While the zionists wish to believe they have to defeat the Palestinians, and no more, to win – the reality is Israel would need to defeat (or make peace) with the entire Islamic world. No Israel party, except perhaps Neturei Karta, has a program that could lead to peace.

    To answer the comment on”hillul ha-shem”, in terms a secular could understand: If someone wants to be a paratrooper, and his friends and family want him to work in kitchen (safer, good chances to steal food for the family, etc.), the friends and family would be outraged (equivalent to hillul ha-shem in our culture) – be really the one who wants to be a paratrooper is praiseworthy (equivalent to kiddush ha-shem among the yidden). It is those who give up their parnassah and the liklihood of a comfortable middle class existence by choosing to learn Torah instead of playing soldier, that are doing a kiddush ha-shem, even if unappreciated by those who don’t understand that Torah is the key to our survival.

    #924002
    Leyzer
    Participant

    akuperma said:

    The military solution won’t work. The Muslims will never accept a non-Muslim country in what they regard as their turf. They will accept, based on past and even current practices, a non-Muslim community that accepts that its the Muslim’s neighborhood and are content to be autonomous, i.e., accept being “second class citizens.”

    Hiloni Jews have a western ideal of civil and political rights. They also are very much into being libertines and other behavior that Islam (and not coincidentally, Judaism) can’t put up with. The hilonim dream they can offer bribes and lands and make the Palestinians go away, but the hilonim can’t offer to give up being part of Euro-American secular culture nor can they accept loss of political primacy.

    The Hareidim can make meaningful concessions to the Muslims (ban gays, close down the brothels, ban ribit, require modest clothing, etc.), and Hareidim can accept be an autonomous community within someone else’s country. Running the government has never been a priority for us.

    Only the Hareidim can make peace. Only the Hareidim can prevent the destruction of the Jewish communities of Eretz Yisrael.

    My response: You are a dreamer, my friend, if you honestly believe the Arabs are willing to make peace with the Charedim because of common interests (ban ribit, modest clothing etc).

    Til now the suicide bombers haven’t discriminated between charedim and chilonim when choosing their victims. They kill indiscriminately. It is absolute delusion to claim that there is more chance of peace with Charedim.

    At the moment, the IDF is well and truly needed. Whether the state should have been started is another discussion (although as a frum person you should be aware of the post-Holocaust sentiment at the time that allowed for the state to be created) but be as it may, the IDF is needed now.

    #924003

    let me put it like this: lets say a 19 year old kallah marries an Israeli, and they want to make aliyah so they can move to bnei brak and learn in Ponevetch, they can’t because he will have to serve in the army, which isn’t such a good idea, especially if the wife ends up getting pregnant a month after getting married.

    #924004
    shmoel
    Member

    snowbunny: The couple should immediately renounce their newborn baby’s Israeli citizenship.

    #924005
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sb,

    I saw reported that Chacham Ovadiah said that if festival students are drafted, the charedim will have to reside in chu”l.

    #924006
    benignuman
    Participant

    Kanoi and Health,

    I am not saying that the army “needs” the Chareidim, I am saying that it isn’t right that only the Chilonim and the Daati Leumi/Mizrachi/Hesder risk their lives in the IDF when the Chareidim get the same protection.

    The reason the Chareidim avoiding army service bothers so many other Israelis is that they feel that they and their children are risking their lives and the Chareidim are not.

    #924007
    shmoel
    Member

    It isn’t right that while the Chareidim protect the country with their learning, the Chilonim completely shirk their duty and responsibility of Limud Torah while benefiting from the full-time learners. The Chilonim avoiding Torah bothers so many religious Jews.

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