January 21, 2013 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #924059
They said it was a kiddush Hashem? When and where? Are they aware of how it looks from the outside? Are they aware of the way it is perceived by Jews and non-Jews in America? Maybe it would make a difference if someone let them know about the Chillul Hashem.
I don’t expect you to just stop listening, but I do expect you to question and ask yourself whether you are satisfied with the answer. If you aren’t, ask again explaining why you are not satisfied. Gedolim are not oracles they are teachers, rabbeim.
If you are learning a gemara and your Rebbi gives an answer to a kasha and you don’t understand it, what do you do? Do you just accept it or do you ask again until either you understand or you come to the conclusion that your Rebbi is wrong and try to come up with a different pshat?January 21, 2013 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #924060
benignuman -“Show me a public statement (i.e. one that can be confirmed) by any Torah outsider praising the Chareidi refusal to serve in the IDF, and I will rethink whether or not it is a Chillul Hashem.”
You mean since you have no belief in our Gedolim -you need s/o who you consider a Godol to make such a statement before you believe it. IMHO, this is a Chillul Hashem. Our Gedolim said it’s Ossur to go to the Israeli army. This is from Gedolim from the previous generation. Even if I didn’t personally understand the reason, it’s a Kiddush Hashem to listen to them.
Along comes Mr. benignuman and says it’s a Chillul Hashem not to go to the army. I personally don’t care what you believe and neither do the Gedolim and those that follow them, who said you shouldn’t go to the Israeli army. Why should anyone even try to convince you otherwise?January 21, 2013 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #924061gavra_at_workParticipant
You mean since you have no belief in our Gedolim -you need s/o who you consider a Godol to make such a statement before you believe it.
On the other side, anyone who promotes service is not a Gadol. If only we could find a True Scotsman!January 21, 2013 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #924062
im not really reading these posts but id like to point out to mdd- yelling chillul hashem and defining it based on your gut and what you think/believe bothers HKB”H does not make it so. there are men, great men, living and no longer, who know worlds more and understand worlds more than you do. give it up.January 21, 2013 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #924063
Da’as Yochid, in times of the Chazon Ish and even later, it was not a Chilul HaShem because the frei and the Mizrachi Israelis did not mind giving money to the Yeshivos. It is Chillul HaShem though to insist on staying in learning on other people’s money when they openly and strongly object to it.
Could Eshes Rabi Chanina ben Tradion be blamed for not stopping her husband? Think about it.
As for the insults, my definition is based on Gemorahs and Rishonim and Achronim.
Btw, do you know why the Satmar Chasidim do not go to the Kosel?January 21, 2013 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #924064
mdd -“Da’as Yochid, in times of the Chazon Ish and even later, it was not a Chilul HaShem because the frei and the Mizrachi Israelis did not mind giving money to the Yeshivos.”
This I don’t believe for a second! Why wouldn’t they mind? It’s like saying Americans 20 years ago didn’t mind paying taxes.
Noone wants to pay taxes, ever, they just have to.
Years ago, the Israelis just probably weren’t as vocal about it as they are now, but they never wanted to support Torah learning on a wide scale.January 21, 2013 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #924065truthsharerMember
Another reason why they weren’t as vocal was because the charedim themselves weren’t as vocal about things. Once they started to shove, the rest pushed back.January 21, 2013 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #924066
tsharer: You could not be more incorrect. It has always been the anti-frum in Israel that shoved against the frum, whose response was defensive. Of course the best defense is a good offense.January 21, 2013 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #924067
truthsharer – Naarish. It’s irrevelant who started. The Medina’s existance is based on Charedim Not going to the army!January 21, 2013 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #924068
“Our Gedolim said it’s Ossur to go to the Israeli army. This is from Gedolim from the previous generation. Even if I didn’t personally understand the reason, it’s a Kiddush Hashem to listen to them.”
First of all, the situation today is different then it was in the previous generation. The IDF is willing to have glatt kosher units keeping high standards of halacha. There is no longer an official objective to secularize the members of the IDF.
Second of all, it is not a kiddush hashem to follow a ruling from a previous generation without knowing the reason why. Halachik and Hashkafic rulings of Gedolim (a.k.a. Daas Torah) are not meant to be followed blindly but to be followed based on an understanding of the reasoning behind them (assuming one has the capabilities to follow the reasoning). If you don’t understand the reasons behind the ruling then it is dangerous and foolish to apply it to different circumstances.
I am willing to listen, learn and understand. The original poster asked for an explanation. So far (with the possible exception of Akuperma, pending investigation) the explanations have been lacking. If someone gives me a good convincing pshat behind the purported (it would be nice to see an actual teshuvah) I will accept it.January 21, 2013 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #924069
It isn’t merely the Gedolim of the previous generation. The Gedolim of today also are telling us loud and clearly to go to Yeshiva and stay out of the army. The message could not be clearer.January 22, 2013 12:03 am at 12:03 am #924070
First of all, I did not intend any personal insult. Now back to our discussion.
Even based on your premise that the frei used to willingly support learning, there are still big people, even today, who are perfectly capable of determining whether taking government money and sitting and learning is a chillul Hashem.
I’m curious as to your sources.
I imagine that they don’t go to the kosel so as not to benefit from the Zionists, am I correct ?January 22, 2013 1:03 am at 1:03 am #924071
There are Gedolim on both sides of the issue. The important point however is not to just accept the statements put out in the name of the Gedolim without an examination of their sources and reasoning. We are not dealing with a Sanhedrin HaGadol here.January 22, 2013 1:19 am at 1:19 am #924072
Where is your Emunas Chachomim?? Yes, the Gedolim know better than us. Yes, we must follow our Rabbonim regardless of whether we understand and/or agree with their decision. No, we cannot change the rabbonim we follow — like a new ice cream flavor — because we want to hear something different than what they are telling us.January 22, 2013 1:32 am at 1:32 am #924073Ben LeviParticipant
Last I checked.
Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlita
Rav Aron Leib Shteinman Shlita
Rav Nissim Karelitz shlita
Rav Gedalya Edelstien shlita
Rav Shmuel Aurbach shlita
Rav Chaim Greinaman shlita
The Gerrer Rebbe shlita
The Belzer Rebbe shlita
The Rabbonim of Eida Chareidis
Rav Ovadia Yisef shlita
Are all vehemently opposed to Yeshivaleit being drafted, period.
Can you state which GEdolim are in favor?January 22, 2013 2:55 am at 2:55 am #924074
benignuman -“First of all, the situation today is different then it was in the previous generation. The IDF is willing to have glatt kosher units keeping high standards of halacha. There is no longer an official objective to secularize the members of the IDF.”
You’re right – it’s different – it’s worse.
Btw, they never had an “official” objective to Shmad. Do you even know why people go OTD?
Did you ever hear of Purim? What was the big Aveira in those days – Achashveirosh had a Glatt Kosher party?
“If you don’t understand the reasons behind the ruling then it is dangerous and foolish to apply it to different circumstances.
I am willing to listen, learn and understand.”
This last line I don’t believe for a second. And I do know at least one reason, forget about the women singing which would be enough Not to go, do you even know why they have women soldiers?
I’ll tell you; it’s not because they are Amazon women and are better soldiers, (even though some guy just wrote an article that they are – which I don’t believe), it’s because they are good for morale and I’ll leave it at that.January 22, 2013 3:09 am at 3:09 am #924075
There is a difference between Emunas Chachomim and treating Gedolim as infallible (what do you do when there is machlokes?). Emunas Chachomim means trusting the mesorah and trusting that the Chachomim are acting out of the best of intentions. It does not mean blind faith in what they say. They are not Neviim.
When you are in Yeshiva and the maggid shiur says a pshat that you disagree with, do you just accept it? I hope not, because if you do you will never learn how to learn.January 22, 2013 3:16 am at 3:16 am #924076
benignuman -“There is a difference between Emunas Chachomim and treating Gedolim as infallible (what do you do when there is machlokes?). Emunas Chachomim means trusting the mesorah and trusting that the Chachomim are acting out of the best of intentions. It does not mean blind faith in what they say. They are not Neviim.”
So why do you trust these MO Rabbis when they say join the Israeli army?!?!?January 22, 2013 3:35 am at 3:35 am #924077
Quite frankly, I am tired of writing the same thing again and again. Toi, exactly, first read my posts carefully and then speak.
Da’as Yoichid, it clear from the Gemorah and Rishonim and Achronim that if the Goyim have a fair and reasonable ta’anah on the conduct of the Yidden it is Chillul HaShem. The Gemorah in Yevamos(79A) where Dovid Ha’Melech executed Shaul’s relatives is especially compelling because there the chashash was quite far-off.January 22, 2013 3:36 am at 3:36 am #924078akupermaParticipant
Having segregated “frum” units should be seen as an insult. It means you are fit to die for the army, but not fit to be seen or promoted. The best analogy would be to the famous Buffalo soldiers (“colored” regiments) of the American army that existed from the Civil War through World War II, or the “native” or “colonial” units of the British army (both George Washington and Moshe Dayan served in such units). One should note that neither Goerge not Moshe were known by history as having been enthused by their love of their respective King Georges.
To say the army has changed, the command structure and most units would be frum (i.e. a ban on pritsus, enforcing yichad and negiah, all food being strictly kosher, all work schedules based on Jewish religious observances even if there are no frum soldiers in a unit, etc.), and perhaps having some “special” units for hilonim who while being patriotic zionists just can’t stand frum people.
Almost all gedolim, including many of the “zionist” ones, believe that yeshiva students should be exempt from the army since the work they are doing is at least as critical to national survival. Depending on politics, some gedolim believe even Baal ha-battim should refuse to serve in the army either because the army is anti-Torah, or because the Medinah is constituted contrary to halacha.
If there is a change in policy, we will see the leading yeshivos demanding that they be allowed to sponsor hesder programs, and we’ll see the children and grandchildren of the gedolim joining elite combat units and striving to be officers (and if that happens, you can be certain that exposing your self to naked women will no longer be part of the test for becoming an IDF officer).January 22, 2013 4:03 am at 4:03 am #924079
So I guess that you are infallible, if you think your opinion is more likely to be right than theirs.
If R’ Schach or the Chazon Ish say a pshat which I “disagree” with, I break my head to try to understand it, because I know that they’re much more likely to be correct than I am.
Even more to the point, if my rov gives a psak which I don’t “agree with”, I follow it nonetheless. This is actually a better analogy in one sense; the decision to join the army or not is very much a halachic one.January 22, 2013 4:20 am at 4:20 am #924080
There are two different categories that need to be clarified. There are Gedolim that hold that all Yeshivaleit should be drafted:
Rav Sholom Yofef Zevin Z”TL
Rav Aharon Lichtenstein Shlita
Rav Shlomo Aviner Shlita
There are then many more that hold Talmidei Chachomim should not be drafted but those that are not on that level should be drafted (and Yeshiva students could delay being drafted but should eventually serve):
Rav Avraham Yitzchak Hakohen Kook Z”TL
Rav Yehuda Amital Z”TL
Rav Tzvi Yehuda Kook Z”TL
Rav She’ar Yoshuv Cohen Z”TL
I am not particularly familiar with the Mizrachi/Hesder world, so I would guess that there are many more whom I am not familiar with.January 22, 2013 4:31 am at 4:31 am #924081
I am not “trusting” any Rabbis. I understand the reasons behind the opinion that most Chareidim should serve in the IDF. I don’t understand the reasons behind the opinion that Chareidim should not serve in the IDF.
“Infallible” means that you can’t make a mistake, it doesn’t mean you are right on occasion. If the Chazon Ish says a pshat I don’t understand, I break my head to understand it too. If, however, R’Elchanan also says a pshat and R’Elchanan’s I understand, then I am going to go forward in the Gemara with R’Elchanan.
If you have been m’kabel R’Chaim Kanievsky as your Rav then yes you are bound by his psak, whether he is right or wrong (unless it is k’neged an ofene mishnah). But I highly doubt that most people, even Chareidim, have been m’kabel R’Chaim Kanievsky as their Rav.
Additionally, even if one is m’kabel and they must follow doesn’t mean that the position is the correct one.January 22, 2013 4:35 am at 4:35 am #924082
There are no women soldiers in Nahal HaChareidi or Hesder units. Please don’t slander the fine soldiers of those units who are risking their lives to protect Yidden.January 22, 2013 4:55 am at 4:55 am #924083
mdd -“Quite frankly, I am tired of writing the same thing again and again.
And quite frankly, I am tired of reading your same Naarishkeit again & again!
“Da’as Yoichid, it clear from the Gemorah and Rishonim and Achronim that if the Goyim have a fair and reasonable ta’anah on the conduct of the Yidden it is Chillul HaShem.”
So what’s the analogy? Do you consider Not going to the army a Taanah that is fair and reasonable? I don’t and even the guy who started the Medina didn’t (Ben -Gurion). If you say he isn’t around anymore and we the Zionists don’t like his agreements -I’ll say fine – go start your own Medina somewhere like Uganda and only allow Charedim in your Medina that will follow your rules and any rule you decide to make whether it’s a whim or not.January 22, 2013 6:56 am at 6:56 am #924084
Besides, the Charedim obviously consider the gedolim I am referring to to be the manhigei hador.
It’s pretty silly to expect them to follow those you mentioned.January 22, 2013 8:59 am at 8:59 am #924085
benignuman -“I am not “trusting” any Rabbis. I understand the reasons behind the opinion that most Chareidim should serve in the IDF. I don’t understand the reasons behind the opinion that Chareidim should not serve in the IDF.”
I am “trusting” the Gedolim. I also understand the reasons behind the opinion that Chareidim should Not serve in the IDF. I don’t understand the reasons behind the opinion that Chareidim should serve in the IDF.January 22, 2013 9:09 am at 9:09 am #924086
benignuman -“There are no women soldiers in Nahal HaChareidi or Hesder units.”
Tell me also that there are No women on their bases and in their boot camp.
“Please don’t slander the fine soldiers of those units who are risking their lives to protect Yidden.”
Please don’t slander the fine Jews of Klal Yisroel spending their lives learning Torah instead of going to the IDF!
I must give you a dubious award. There are a lot of Zionists that post here, but you are by far the most brainwashed of all the MO/Mizrachi posters here!January 22, 2013 11:07 am at 11:07 am #924087susheeMember
benig: You are a fool if you expect yidden to not listen to the many gedolim who say they should not serve in the army because there are some other rabbis who say they should serve.January 22, 2013 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #924088
mdd -“Quite frankly, I am tired of writing the same thing again and again.
And quite frankly, I am tired of reading your same Naarishkeit again & again!
I was waiting for such a response. 🙂
Do you consider Not going to the army a Taanah that is fair and reasonable?
Mdd was referring to taking money, not joining the army.January 22, 2013 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #924089
Daas Yochid & Sushee,
I am not expecting the Chareidim in E”Y to listen to the Mizrachi Gedolim over the Chareidi Gedolim. I was responding to a point made by Ben Levi arguing that all Gedolim held that the Yeshivaleit should not serve. My point is that one cannot say that there is definitive “Daas Torah” with respect to this issue. It is matter of machlokes.
This argument should be one of debate and reason and not calling “Gedolim” to try and end the discussion.January 22, 2013 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #924090
MDD: If the yeshiva guys stop taking any money from the Israeli government, would you support the frum yidden refusing to serve in the army even if the government wanted to draft them?January 22, 2013 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #924091
I am not MO and I am not Mizrachi. I am a Zionist in the same way Rav Gifter T”ZL was (“I am the biggest Tzioni, I say 3 times a day ‘v’sechezena eineinu b’shuvcha l’TZION b’rachamim”).
BTW dropping “brainwashing” into a debate is absolutely pointless. It is an attack that can always be turned back on its user. How do you know I am brainwashed, maybe you are brainwashed? It’s just silly.
Oh . . . you might want to look up the definition of “slander.”January 22, 2013 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #924092
DaasYochid -“Mdd was referring to taking money, not joining the army.”January 22, 2013 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #924093
benignuman -“I am not MO and I am not Mizrachi.”
Oh my! Then it must just be a coincidence that you have the exact same philosophies.
“I am a Zionist in the same way Rav Gifter T”ZL was (“I am the biggest Tzioni, I say 3 times a day ‘v’sechezena eineinu b’shuvcha l’TZION b’rachamim”).”
The Chutzpa to claim you’re like him is unreal. You’re not even close to him in any way shape or form. My father knew him very well and I’ve met him and I’m friendly with one of his sons.
“BTW dropping “brainwashing” into a debate is absolutely pointless.”
Here is another word I’m dropping into this debate -“manipulator”!
Your posts (almost all), esp. the last one about R’ Gifter zt’l, reek of s/o trained in manipulation.January 22, 2013 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #924094The Kanoi Next DoorMember
Can someone kindly provide a coherent, articulate explanation of why the Charaidim should have to serve in the Israeli army?
I personally don’t think it makes any sense to drag the learners out of the Bais Medrash and make them serve in the army when the army has no need for additional soldiers. All that will accomplish is that each person would serve for a shorter amount of time. So we would end up with less people learning, and yet the army wouldn’t get any bigger.
So why draft the Charaidim?January 22, 2013 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #924095
The Kanoi Next Door – Stop wasting your breath. These Zionists aren’t interested in logic!January 22, 2013 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #924096
To get votes.January 22, 2013 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #924097zahavasdadParticipant
It seems a party ran on a platform of drafting the Charedim and seems to have gotten 19 seats (Yesh Atid) and the Charedi parties Shas and UTJ got 18 seats. This is only preliminary thoughJanuary 22, 2013 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #924098
mdd- and i suppose you understand gemaras beter than the great men who know shas fluently, have written exstensively on it, and understand that going to the army is yihureg vi’al yaavor?
i understand you dont agree. i understand you think theyre wrong (as retarded as that makes you), but i dont understand why you think we’re crazy for picking them over you.January 22, 2013 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #924099ShiraTobalaMember
Then people cant learn full timeJanuary 22, 2013 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #924100
Assuming you are correct that the army has no need for additional soldiers, would you be opposed to the Chareidim using a Hesder like system and the surplus of soldiers allowing for the current Hesder boys and the Chareidim to each have shorter stints in the army and more time learning?January 22, 2013 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #924102susheeMember
The Chareidim cannot have a hesder-like arrangement since that would mean the Chareidim would have less time in the Yeshiva learning Torah.January 23, 2013 3:58 am at 3:58 am #924103
Toi, drei nit ken kup!! Why was Rabi Chanina ben Tradion’s wife punished for not being moche on him? After all, he knew Shas better! Stop with the propaganda!January 23, 2013 3:59 am at 3:59 am #924104
Toi, and they did not say now that Nachal Chareidi is “yehareg…”. They say it’s bittlu Torah, btw.January 23, 2013 4:51 am at 4:51 am #924105
It’s one thing to discuss an issue, but I hope you didn’t just say that you are being moche!January 23, 2013 7:29 am at 7:29 am #924106
im gonna ask R nisim karelitz and R ahron leib how they learnt it, and maybe ill get back to you. you really think that with your puny hold on the vastness of torah, you can argue with these people. its simply silly.January 23, 2013 10:35 am at 10:35 am #924107Shoe store assistantMember
R’ yisroel of vitznitz has quoted that the brisker rov zatza”l was reluctant to sign on the protest against giyus banot, saying that not only is giyus banot ossur, so is giyus banim.
In terms of who the gedoilim are, one has to rely on hashgacha elyonah that hashem gives every generation the right people, so if one sees that chahcam ovadia is treated as manhig by the sefardim, R’ steiman, r’ karelitz, r’ kanievsky and r’ aeurbach by the ashkenazim, and the rabbanim of the eida hachareidit and satmar by the kania’im, alongside the respective rebbes of belz, gur, and viznitz, one can rely on their da’at tora for our generation, even if r’ aron lichtenstein feels differently.
When the chazoin ish was asked for the source that giyus banot is forbidden, he opened his shirt and pointed to his heart. One does not need to see the sources, when one sees a person who has learnt torah passionately for many years – such as chacham Ovadia, – one can rely on their pure hearts a a source.January 23, 2013 10:46 am at 10:46 am #924108LeyzerParticipant
1. My initial post referred to drafting those Bochurim/Yungerleit who aren’t using their time properly. It was couched in diplomatic terms but what I really meant was those who are messing around. Going to Yeshiva used to be a personal decision and those who went didnt mess around. Now, the (Shidduch/societal) system mandates it. But not everyone is cut out for it. Perhaps those guys would be better off doing a year or two, then going to the army/getting a job etc.
I’d be amazed if any Gedolim advocate keeping these type of boys in Yeshiva if they are clearly not managing there. Maybe the Gedolim aren’t aware that these type of Bochurim exist?
2. Also, most of you (Kano’im) missed my point. I suggested that Bochurim should spend 3 yrs in Yeshiva then serve in the army. If this was the system / cycle, then the Yeshivas would remain full – those who left to join the army would be immediately replaced by the incoming year starting Yeshiva. Thus, Eretz Yisroel would have the constant protection of Lomdei Torah and Israel would have the constant participation of Chareidim in the Army. [To those who harp on about the Peritzus and Chilonius of the army atmosphere, I am sure that if Litzman et al told the Army ‘we are giving you 10,000 bochurim a year if you set up strictly chareidi units’ they would agree in a flash]January 23, 2013 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #924109
No, the army would never give up their pritzus for that. This is Provence so openly every time there is another report that the army forced religious mizrachi soldiers to listen to Kol Isha against their will. Is the Kol Isha helping them fight better? Of course not. It is the pritzus they wish to IMPOSE on others.
And that is why there are MULTIPLE reasons the Gedolim are dead set against frum yidden joining the army. Something we must fight with our lives against.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.