December 9, 2008 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #1166361noitallmrParticipant
Just look at the learning for the Mumbai Kedoshim and the way everyone feels when another Jew is in pain or has suffered a loss. MI KEAMCHO YISRAEL???
BTW how do you do the Bold typing Joseph?December 9, 2008 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #1166362
noitallmr, where you want to start the bold type:
where you want to end the bold, do the same as above, but instead of strong, type /strong
(to use italics, replace strong with em )December 9, 2008 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #1166364notpashutMember
I know I’m joining in real late here but rabbiofberlin, the Steipler Ztz”l in Chayei Olam (in my humble opinion one of the GRETEST mussar seforim EVER written) explains that “Kol yisroel yesh lohem chelek l’olam haba” means IF THEY DON’T MESS IT UP!!
For Instance “Hamalbin p’nei chaveiro b’rabim AIN lo chelek l’olam haba.
Ayin sham where he explains this in depth.
By the way, as I’ve pointed out numerous times, if you take a look in Koivetz Ma’amarim from R’ Elchanan Hy”d (which you say you have) you will see clearly why the tzionim reshaim are not getting anywhere near Olam Haba.
In case you haven’t noticed, about 4 people already pointed out that the Kuzari says it Mefurash.
I think you should stop while you are not too far behind.December 10, 2008 5:43 am at 5:43 am #1166366
i dont understand why its so hard for some people to come to terms with their own superiority as a Jew! don’t you feel elevated when/if you’re on the subway, and you cant help but compare yourself to the TRASH that very often occupies the train?????????
maybe its too much american patriotism. ive known thta feeling once upon a time, but i got over it eventually bH.
i think we have to ask ourselves: are we american Jews or Jewish americans?
which is the ikar and which is the tafel?December 10, 2008 6:24 am at 6:24 am #1166367
What I’ve been saying with some others all along…December 10, 2008 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #1166369
Usually I really like your posts, but I do object to your referring to people that way. I’ve also traveled the subways, and encountered all kinds of panhandlers and fake deaf people, along with more unsavory characters, but I wouldn’t refer to any of them as “trash”. Remember, every human was created b’tzelem elokim.December 10, 2008 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #1166370noitallmrParticipant
Re: anon for this
Maskim. But compared to the holiness and the closeness we feel to Hashem they are like trash. They are Shumtzdik like never before and we have to talk into ourselves that thy are the trash and how different we are.December 10, 2008 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1166371
I disagree with you on this point. This exchange reminds me of a story I heard of a godol who, the day after a US presidential election, asked who had won. When those around him expressed surprise that he wanted to know (since he didn’t usually take an interest in politics), he explained that when he said the bracha “shelo asani goy” he wanted to have in mind the most powerful person in the world.
We should feel proud and grateful for being Jews, and recognize the privilege and responsibility associated with this. If we have to talk ourselves into feeling better by selectively comparing ourselves to those around us, and call them names to feel superior, then I think we are sadly missing the point. Not to mention that I don’t think Hashem wants us to criticize creations made in His image.December 10, 2008 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #1166372
Like BYM said, we ARE superior; its not just a feeling.December 10, 2008 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1166373
That’s true, and I never said otherwise. But by putting other people down we make ourselves seem insecure. And calling other human beings trash is disparaging creations made in His image. I don’t think that’s behavior well-suited to superior people.December 10, 2008 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1166374The Queen of PersiaMember
I think you are all comparing apples with oranges!December 10, 2008 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #1166375SJSinNYCMember
I have to add this – there are plenty of wonderful non Jews out there. They fulfil their tachlis by keeping the sheva mitzvot bnei noach. They are kind, caring people living on their path.
There are also terrible Jews out there. They lie, cheat, steal, abuse…are they better than the wonderful non Jews? I cant answer because I do not know how Hashem judges and neither do you.
BYM: I am an American JewDecember 10, 2008 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #1166376
Those (few) that indeed do maintain the Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach, I agree with your characterization of. (Not though your comparison to Yidden.)December 10, 2008 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #1166377feivelParticipant
i think the queen of persia pointed out the reason for much if the disagreement here.December 10, 2008 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #1166378SJSinNYCMember
So many youngsters go off the derech because of abuse. So many of them leave because they see the hypocrisy of the type I described above.
Thankfully, its the minority. I’m just pointing out that its hard to judge who is “the best.”December 10, 2008 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #1166379
Open a Chumash and it won’t be so hard to judge that Yidden are the best.December 10, 2008 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #1166380feivelParticipant
“I cant answer because I do not know how Hashem judges and neither do you”
Hashem tells us exactly how to judge fellow Jews. this is the Tanach, Mishna, and Gemorah, especially Nezikin.
of course exactly how one is judged in Shamayim we cannot know.December 11, 2008 3:40 am at 3:40 am #1166381
anon for this: thank you for pointing that out to me, it really wasnt the right word to use. i partly agree with noitallmr and i also want to add that even though they are created btzelem Elokim, they dont act like it. its their choice to be perceived that way by nice Jewish girls.January 6, 2009 1:52 am at 1:52 am #1166383
Yidden are the best because they believe in Hashem. The whole world are to’im, but even non religious Jews don’t believe in yeshu etc. This is a very big zechus for yidden.January 7, 2009 4:53 am at 4:53 am #1166384BogenParticipant
I say the brocho “shelo asani goy” with extra kavana!January 7, 2009 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #1166385AnonymousInactive
i hold this thread should get a sticky its a big chizukJanuary 8, 2009 3:05 am at 3:05 am #1166386
someone stopped me on the street once and couldnt get over the fact that i was wearing a skirt and long sleeves….she just didnt stop talking to me–its amazing, wow, Jews are so refined…..were not the only ones that recognize our superiority!!!January 8, 2009 3:06 am at 3:06 am #1166387qwertyuiopMember
do we even need any reasons to know why Yidden are the BEST.January 8, 2009 4:11 am at 4:11 am #1166388
BYM: Precisely. And you can proudly say the last word of your post over and over again. And never be shy or intimadated by the self-loathing left who are embarrassed with their Jewish skin.
We are a far, far superior nation.January 8, 2009 4:23 am at 4:23 am #1166389
what’s the big deal? i mean, i don’t think i’d wanna be a goy, but if i was born that way i’d probably be fine.January 8, 2009 5:30 am at 5:30 am #1166390
Would you really be fine?
Would you love HaShem for taking you out of Mitzrayim, and giving you great leaders like Moshe Rabeinu, and great fathers like the Avos. Would you even properly believe in HaShem? No matter how refined some goyim are, their lower level neshama can not be a vehicle of truth. Moreover, it is Judaism that in one way or another spread morality throughout the world (whatever there is of it).January 8, 2009 6:56 am at 6:56 am #1166391
no but i’m saying that i probably wouldn’t miss any of it. i wouldn’t care or know the difference. if anything i’d be better off than i am now – no pressure, no guilt.January 8, 2009 7:06 am at 7:06 am #1166392qwertyuiopMember
dont worry moish i felt the same way sometimes when i waas your age.January 8, 2009 9:50 am at 9:50 am #1166393
Moish, what about olam habba?
Ignorance may be bliss, but don’t be sad about what you now know. You now know that HaShem, the real HaShem, loves you. Don’t worry so much about the pressure or the guilt. HaShem knows the matzav (no plug intended). Some people never sinned, but the Avos were greater than them even though they did sin, because they accomplished much more. Focus on the many things that you do good. Dovid Hamelech blazed us a path of tikkun with sin.
Everyone should know that HaShem made two ways to shleimus. Either by being a tzadick, or by tikkun with sin. Even though sinning is not lechatchila, the path of tikkun with sin is not bedieved, because HaShem knew good and well that most people would use it. Moreover, teshuva turns the sins into merits! I know that most people nowadays (including myself) are hardly capable of proper teshuva. But listen to this insight on the age old question of why we do teshuva on Yom Kippur even though we know we will go back and sin. The answer is that it is teshuva to be regretful and unhappy about our sins even though we are addicted to doing them. This is the main thing: don’t be happy about your sins and don’t flaunt them, and accept with love any yisurin HaShem gives to cleanse you. Kabalas mitzvos is not neccesarily that you will always do them. Kabalas mitzvos means that you accept responsability for them, to either do them or accept the yisurin for not doing them.
HaShem wants you to be on his team. He would like you to be a good player, but as long as your on his team your o.k. Goyim, sonei Yisrael, are not on HaShem’s team. People who flaunt their sins publicly are not on HaShem’s team. People who are addicted to sin, but are ashamed of it and keep it private, are on HaShem’s team. If your on HaShem’s team, more than you have to worry about reaching shleimus, HaShem has to worry about it, because lo yidach mimenu nidach.
Trust me, a person who is addicted to sin, but is humble because he is ashamed of it and hopes that HaShem will purify him, is better off than someone who is not humble. Even if they do dikduk hamitzvos, HaShem will tell them here is your penny, it’s not worth any more, because you were not humble. The best side affect of sin is that it can make you humble!
None of this is a heter to sin, but it is a way of dealing with the fact that we already do.January 8, 2009 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #1166394intellegentMember
I don’t really like your comment even with the disclaimer. It can be used as an excuse to do sins. We must try our very hardest not to sin no matter what. Once we did sin, we should do teshuva but keep in mind that teshuva does not work for aveiros that you did having in mind that you will do teshuva and sin again. Don’t try to make people feel good by fooling them into thinking they will land in gan eden no matter what they do. If you do what you like and in the back of your mind you feel “guilty” it doesn’t work.
H-m put e/o in whatever situation they are knowing that it’s best for them. Everyone has hardships, some more than others. None is an excuse to get away with serving H-m.
Your post sounds like someone talking to an alcoholic and saying, as long as you stop in 10 years from now, or as long as you feel bad, it’s okay. Someone who has real rachmanus on an alcoholic will not be so “nice” and be very strict with them.January 8, 2009 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #1166395gavra_at_workParticipant
Not to sound like the “right wingers” here, but your yediyos and Ahava of Hashem are lacking if you would not choose in an instant to become a Yid if you were not one. One who understands why we are here and what it means to be a Jew jump at the chance to fulfill the purpose of the world and follow the one we love.
I agree that I may want to not be a yid for a couple of days just to try it out, but thats just my Yetzer Hara talking.
NossonD: Welcome. Your vort gives me chizuck.January 8, 2009 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1166396dovid_yehudaParticipant
“no but i’m saying that i probably wouldn’t miss any of it. i wouldn’t care or know the difference. if anything i’d be better off than i am now – no pressure, no guilt.”
It is no accident that you are hanging out on this site, there is something inside you that is yearning for information, or in someway to connect stronger, with your Jewish identity. It is undeniable that you believe in God, otherwise, you would feel no guilt for anything you did that felt “wrong”. Guilt is given a bad rap because we are told by the secular world that guilt is a product of someone “being judgmental” of another person, and this “judgmentalism” is seen as invalid by the secular, Gentile, value system.
Jews have a different value system: the one taught us from the Torah, the written and oral law. There are some things that we should feel guilty about, e.g. not honoring our parents, treating anyone unkindly, being selfish – all these things can be hurtful and when we hurt someone we should feel guilty and reach to that person and apologize.
Like I said, you are visiting this site for reasons which may not be entirely clear to you, but what it tells me is that you subconsciously wish to become more active as Jew.
This place can be a good place to get information, but I would also suggest that wherever you live there is probably a Chabad house, and if you were to knock on that door, you would find a warm and welcoming environment to have your questions answered and to learn what it means to be Jew, and why being a Jew is the best thing in the world.January 8, 2009 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #1166398
Major disclaimer for everything I said! (even though some people won’t get it).
None of of what I said is a heter to sin, but it is a way of dealing with the fact that we already do.January 8, 2009 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #1166399
It seems the moderator nixed a post of mine. Perhaps it was a bit too heavy. I will therefore keep it light.
A person should never sin and think its o.k. because he will do teshuva for it.
But even this sin has teshuva. First you have to do teshuva for thinking it’s o.k. to sin thinking you will do teshuva. Then you can do teshuva for the sin.
My words before are based on the gemara. I was talking about aino yochol lichvos yitzro.
The gemara says three things force a person to sin, goyim, poverty, and depression etc.
Tosphos says their is a fourth, but it is something that the person himself is at fault for. The fourth is if you sin enough times that you can no longer control yourself.
Either way, lemaysah your no longer in control, and the gemarah tells you what to do.
The gemara says yilbash shechorim (be sad and mourn over your lowly state) and do the sin privately. It’s not a trick in order to live it up. It is a way to act when you can’t do anything else.
The sad fact is that we sin and continue to sin and have lost control over many things.
The above gemarah gives us the way for teshuva on these things. Be sad, be humbled, and don’t flaunt it. And be happy when HaShem purifies you with yesurin. This will put you on HaShem’s team, velo yidach memenu nidach.
Don’t lose this great opportunity to gain humility and rely on HaShem’s mercy. This may even be the reason we are in such a state.
When moshiach comes and places us in an environment of kedusha, we, like in mitzrayim, will go from the 49th level of tuma, to the greatest tahara, because we were humbled and unhappy with our previous state, and we will jump at the opportunity to be the best we can, in a world of kedusha.
None of of what I said is a heter to sin, but it is a way of dealing with the fact that we already do.
Note from YW Moderator-72. The other post was a very long post and as you say “heavy” – it was a good post, however, sometimes I like to read it over a few times before and think through it before I press the approve button. Sometimes, I give the other Moderators a chance to see it. The current and how you presented it is better than the original. </strong)January 8, 2009 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1166400
Thank you moderator.
The truth is that I have very strong feelings about these things.
From time to time I come across people who just don’t get it. They seem to have no understanding of the matzav we find ourselves in. To them it’s very simple, just don’t sin, and if you did, do teshuva and don’t sin again.
Evidently they didn’t see the gemara that one may not have control or may have lost control. And these very people don’t seem to realize their own peckel of sins that they do all the time. Loshon Hara, kedushas beis hakeneses, etc. etc.
I just want people to know that they should not lose hope. Even with lost control there is so much that can be done. And the best benefit is humility and reliance upon HaShem.
Hopefully, soon, we’ll be out of this mess, and the gevaldiga nation of ours will shine forth with its true colors. Just like in mitzrayim, halalu ovdei avodah zara vehalalu ovdei avodah zara. ***edited*** Yidden want to be good. period.January 8, 2009 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #1166401
that was all way too deep for me. i think i take back my original comment.January 8, 2009 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #1166402areivimzehlazehParticipant
Moish01: I feel for you and think that for now you can scratch what NossonD is saying (just because you need more backround info and lingo in order to absorb it- no offense to either of you) and focus on dovid_yehudah’s comment. I think that is much more in line with the stage and emotions you are up to now.
It’s a really tough point in life you’re going through and I wish you loads and loads of hatzlacha. It’s hard to reach out (and reach IN- to yourself)… and it makes it easier to get your answers on this type of forum. But it’s not the right way.
You need proper guidance and direction with plenty of sensitivity, love and care to go along with it.
If you can tell us the general area where you live, perhaps we can direct you as to who you can approach to get all your questions straightened out in a positive way.
PS- look at my user name… that’s the name of the game (let me know if you do not understand my user name)January 8, 2009 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #1166404
oh and areivimzehlazeh – just because i’m not frum doesn’t make me stupid. just making sure you get that.January 8, 2009 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #1166405
where is that gemara? I’d like to see it inside.January 9, 2009 12:45 am at 12:45 am #1166406
The gemara about yilbash shechorim is in three places, Kidushin 40a, Moed Katan 17a, and Chagiga 16a.
Tosphos in chagiga and kidushin bring a pshat from R’ Chananel that doing those various things will break his yetzer and he won’t end up sinning, but Tosphos in chagiga argues that the gemara implies otherwise. Tosphos in eiruvin 41b also shares this view. The gemara there is about the three things that force a person to sin, and tosphos adds the fourth one based on the gemara above.
Perhaps what R’ Chananel meant is that its not a free heter to do some trick and live it up as you please. To this R’ Chananel says that the objective is to break the yetzer (by mourning ones sorry state) so that he will eventually get the sin out of his system.January 9, 2009 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #1166407
thanks nossond, I’ll try to look at it over shabbosJanuary 9, 2009 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #1166408areivimzehlazehParticipant
moish01: sorry i didn’t check this thread till now. I DO NOT THINK YOU ARE STUPID
You want to know why I wrote “you need more background info and lingo” and that last line “let me know if you do not understand my user name”- because i have no idea where you are coming from! Please excuse my ignorance
There are definitely pit falls to being completely anonymous yet getting into deep convo. so once again- i will apologize for my blunder. and i mean it sincerely. Please acceptJanuary 9, 2009 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #1166409
it’s all cool. i had to say that because lately people talk to me as if i’m a complete IDIOT when it comes to gemara or halacha. i’m not stupid. maybe i’m behind other guys my age, but it’s not like a foreign concept to me. i’ve been wondering what exactly goes through people’s minds when they’re trying to talk to me. (don’t worry i usually ignore them anyway. with a few exceptions.)January 9, 2009 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #1166410
do you have any interest in catching up to others your age? I’m sure there are people who would be happy to learn with you an hour a day or something like that without trying to be mekarev you or pressure you or anything like that. Just plain learning.January 9, 2009 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #1166411
isn’t that one and the same? i find it hard to believe a guy would waste his time to learn with me without having an underlying motive. even my father. (and him i might consider!)January 9, 2009 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1166412anonymisssParticipant
moish- no, it’s not the same thing. Why wouldn’t someone want to help you learn just for the sake of learning?January 9, 2009 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #1166413
i find it hard to believe. that’s all.January 9, 2009 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #1166414
but in theory if such a person existed would you be interested?January 9, 2009 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #1166415anonymisssParticipant
People like that do exist. I know for a fact. Are you interested now?January 9, 2009 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1166416asdfghjklParticipant
moish01: like charlir bown said–but in theory if such a person existed would you be interested?????
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