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What is the reason that women are halachicly invalid from being witnesses in a court case?
Gezeiras haKasuv. (Interestingly, they are believed in very specific cases – generally to say that a man has died and his wife can remarry. Certain relatives, though, who have a chazakah of hating each other, are not allowed to testify even then.)
The Gemara (Shavuot 30a) discusses this. It says because the part of the pasuk that says “and when two men will stand” (Devarim 19:17) is referring to witnesses. Men can, woman can’t.
Is the reason a woman can’t be a witness the same reason that a woman can’t be a judge?
Women cannot be witnesses, because they are not really jewish.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/are-women-reallyjewish
a king also can’t be a witness. It is considered undignified for him. Perhaps the same applies in the case of women.
A woman is disqualified to be a witness because of a gezeiras hakasuv.
This is not due to her lack of creditably. We find cases where there is someone who ate chelev but the eiydim don’t know if it was assur or mutar.A woman is believed based on her credibility to testify on the subject matter whether it was assur or mutar.
Shrek: The Gemara rejects that Havah Aminah on Shavout 30a.
In court, they cannot testify, but every month women give “eidus” that they have been to the Mikvah, and they are to be believed.
In all aries that one person is credible i.e. issur vehetur a woman is also valid, however when there is a need for two eidim e.i. gitin, kidusin, dinei mamonois and dinei nefashos a woman is not a valid eid.
If I remember correctly the reason that women are not allowed to give ???? is because of ??? ?????. In the beginning of ???? ???? when the ???? told ?????? that next year ??? your wife will have a son, ??? laughed. She said, that she is old, and ?????? is old. When ??? appeared to ?????? and asked why ??? laughed and said “Shall I have a son when I am old”? When ?????? approached ??? and asked her why she laughed, she denied it and replied ?? ????? ?? ????.
Chanie: What does that story have to do with women giving testimony? It’s a Gezeiras Hakasuv.
Why can’t a woman be a judge?
Who says they can’t? It’s a Machlokes Rishonim.
What is the reason given that they can’t be a judge, per the shitta that they can’t?
And what does Shulchan Aruch say?
Sam2: This is the original ???? on why women are Posul to give ????. Being that ??? denied laughing and grew frightened, this is the precedent set on ???? not being allowed by a woman.
Chanie: It’s an interesting connection. Do you have a source that actually connects the two?
The reason given that they can’t judge, I believe, is because a Mishnah in Niddah says that if someone is Posul for Eidus then they are Posul to be a Dayan.
Sam2: I would have to go back to my seminary notes to retrieve the information. I’ll need a day or two.
The mekor is the gezeiras hakasuv.The mekor you mention shows a lack of creditably which in reality they are kosher for.
chanie- maybe thats a hashkafic approach or geshmake shtickel, but its not a halachic source.
The reason given that they can’t judge, I believe, is because a Mishnah in Niddah says that if someone is Posul for Eidus then they are Posul to be a Dayan.”
Tell that to Devorah in Sefer Shoftim.
Sorry PBA,
no one was even gores you (except me, that is)
Thanks coffee. I knew I had one real friend here.
Sam2 and Toi: The Mekor for what I stated is ???”? ??. ??.
I’ll translate it. Jewish women are not accepted as witnesses in Bais Din, since even the most righteous one among them denied the truth out of fear.
What is ???”??
Thanks coffee. I knew I had one real friend here.
I didn’t say I would bury a corpse for you
The Gemorah does not mention this as a source. The mishna (?????? ?.)says ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????. the Gemorah asks ????? ???? (how do we know this) Rashi explains ????? ?????? ????? (that ladies are not allowed to testify) and the Gemeorah answers that the ???? says ????? ??? ?????? (the two men stand)this teaches us that men testify, not women.
In certain cases where the judge finds the woman more credible he can accept her testimony regarding certain matters, see ?????? ??
??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??????(the Amora Rava accepted the testimony of the daughter of Rav Chisda, which he knew to be credible, despite not accepting similar testimony from the well know scholar Rav Papa )
Also in a case of ??? ????? where it is clear to bais din that there are witnesses lying, it is forbidden to rule base on male witnesses. So if women contradict male witnesses this would very often fall into such a category.
Women are technically ???? ????? however it doesn’t mean they have no credibility in Bais Din.
When it comes to Agunos women are also believed.
And of course for all matters pertaining to regular prohibitions (?? ??? ????????)they are believed.
Sam2, Chatzi Nezek is also a Gezeiras Hakosuv. Will you say there is no reason? But anyhow, wherever an Eid Echad is Kosher, so is a woman. In other words, we have no problem believing her. She is just not a Kosher Eid.
The Ben Ish Chai gives a few reasons why she is Pasul. Keep in mind, though, that Eidus in itself is a Gezeiras Hakosuv. There are times that even when Beis Din saw something themselves, we need two other people to be Eidim.
Interestingly enough, there are Rishonim who hold that Eid Echad Ne’eman B’issurim does not apply to women. No one anywhere (I think) holds that way though.
‘Interestingly enough, there are Rishonim who hold that Eid Echad Ne’eman B’issurim does not apply to women. No one anywhere (I think) holds that way though”.
I’m not familiar with any such opinion. If that was the case nobody would be able to eat at home. A ??? is clearly believed that she is ?????.
According to them we do believe them when it is Beyada. Otherwise, you’ll need a live in Mashgiach.
I didn’t say I would bury a corpse for you
Half a friend
No. Not a half, either.
PBA,
you should know the half a friend still does it but only becuase your his friend
HaLeiVi: Not everyone holds of Beyada either. There are some Rishonim who hold that Eid Echad Ne’eman B’Issurim does not apply to women for anything. The Mordechai points out that the reason we believe she was Tovel for this is only if we know her to be Shomer Halacha and therefore she has a Chazaka that she wouldn’t be Over on any Issurim (including Lifnei Iver so you can trust the Kashrus).
Ok, ok. I have no friends on the CR.
That is ok, I have 1 1/2 friends in real life. And coffee addict on the CR to appreciate my jokes that fall flat.
@PBA:
If I recall the Gemara correctly, Poppa Bar Abba has several friends (and it’s not just the jokes that fall flat :-p).
And the icon for that is . . _
Actually, the Gemara in Pesachim seems to imply that even his friends didn’t like eating with Rav Pappa.
Interestingly enough, there are Rishonim who hold that Eid Echad Ne’eman B’issurim does not apply to women. No one anywhere (I think) holds that way though.
And many Achronim (such as the Keztos in Shmaytza) hold Eid Echad Ne’eman B’issurim is not Eidus.
Bump
Popa’s ostensibly under-appreciated joke appears to have been deleted.
(I only knew to put the dash in there because of the red line.)
Sam, please cite where Rishonim do not beleive women for anything. It is against the Gemara that says that they are believed for some things, such as things that only women would would know (see the on-line article “???” in “???? ???”). Moreover, if she is not believed for issurim her husband would have to send to men to watch her prepare food and go to the mikva. As for her having to be shomeret mitzvot, that is also true for men. BTW, today when the shetar borrerut states that both parties accept the decision whether it is din or peshara there are battei din who will hear what a woman has to say and ask the party against whom she is speaking to answer it.
Joseph, have you ever sought help for your obsession with this subject? Just saying’ -29 (as if you couldn’t figure that out)
well, mikva is different because of v’safra lah.
29 -“Joseph, have you ever sought help for your obsession with this subject?”
Why limit it to his obsessions? Say – Joe, have you gone for help recently?
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