September 16, 2011 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #599421shmoelMember
What is the reason that women are halachicly invalid from being witnesses in a court case?September 18, 2011 12:19 am at 12:19 am #1137524gregaaronMember
Gezeiras haKasuv. (Interestingly, they are believed in very specific cases – generally to say that a man has died and his wife can remarry. Certain relatives, though, who have a chazakah of hating each other, are not allowed to testify even then.)September 18, 2011 1:01 am at 1:01 am #1137525AbellehParticipant
The Gemara (Shavuot 30a) discusses this. It says because the part of the pasuk that says “and when two men will stand” (Devarim 19:17) is referring to witnesses. Men can, woman can’t.September 18, 2011 1:21 am at 1:21 am #1137526
Is the reason a woman can’t be a witness the same reason that a woman can’t be a judge?September 18, 2011 1:32 am at 1:32 am #1137527
Women cannot be witnesses, because they are not really jewish.September 18, 2011 1:39 am at 1:39 am #1137528ShrekMember
a king also can’t be a witness. It is considered undignified for him. Perhaps the same applies in the case of women.September 18, 2011 1:39 am at 1:39 am #1137529sam4321Participant
A woman is disqualified to be a witness because of a gezeiras hakasuv.
This is not due to her lack of creditably. We find cases where there is someone who ate chelev but the eiydim don’t know if it was assur or mutar.A woman is believed based on her credibility to testify on the subject matter whether it was assur or mutar.September 18, 2011 1:48 am at 1:48 am #1137530AbellehParticipant
Shrek: The Gemara rejects that Havah Aminah on Shavout 30a.September 18, 2011 2:56 am at 2:56 am #1137531oomisParticipant
In court, they cannot testify, but every month women give “eidus” that they have been to the Mikvah, and they are to be believed.September 18, 2011 3:17 am at 3:17 am #1137532deiyezoogerMember
In all aries that one person is credible i.e. issur vehetur a woman is also valid, however when there is a need for two eidim e.i. gitin, kidusin, dinei mamonois and dinei nefashos a woman is not a valid eid.September 18, 2011 4:09 am at 4:09 am #1137533
If I remember correctly the reason that women are not allowed to give ???? is because of ??? ?????. In the beginning of ???? ???? when the ???? told ?????? that next year ??? your wife will have a son, ??? laughed. She said, that she is old, and ?????? is old. When ??? appeared to ?????? and asked why ??? laughed and said “Shall I have a son when I am old”? When ?????? approached ??? and asked her why she laughed, she denied it and replied ?? ????? ?? ????.September 18, 2011 4:38 am at 4:38 am #1137534
Chanie: What does that story have to do with women giving testimony? It’s a Gezeiras Hakasuv.September 18, 2011 4:44 am at 4:44 am #1137535
Why can’t a woman be a judge?September 18, 2011 4:48 am at 4:48 am #1137536
Who says they can’t? It’s a Machlokes Rishonim.September 18, 2011 4:53 am at 4:53 am #1137537
What is the reason given that they can’t be a judge, per the shitta that they can’t?
And what does Shulchan Aruch say?September 18, 2011 4:56 am at 4:56 am #1137538
Sam2: This is the original ???? on why women are Posul to give ????. Being that ??? denied laughing and grew frightened, this is the precedent set on ???? not being allowed by a woman.September 18, 2011 5:05 am at 5:05 am #1137539
Chanie: It’s an interesting connection. Do you have a source that actually connects the two?
The reason given that they can’t judge, I believe, is because a Mishnah in Niddah says that if someone is Posul for Eidus then they are Posul to be a Dayan.September 18, 2011 5:16 am at 5:16 am #1137540
Sam2: I would have to go back to my seminary notes to retrieve the information. I’ll need a day or two.September 18, 2011 5:31 am at 5:31 am #1137542sam4321Participant
The mekor is the gezeiras hakasuv.The mekor you mention shows a lack of creditably which in reality they are kosher for.September 18, 2011 11:41 am at 11:41 am #1137543ToiParticipant
chanie- maybe thats a hashkafic approach or geshmake shtickel, but its not a halachic source.September 18, 2011 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1137544oomisParticipant
The reason given that they can’t judge, I believe, is because a Mishnah in Niddah says that if someone is Posul for Eidus then they are Posul to be a Dayan.”
Tell that to Devorah in Sefer Shoftim.September 18, 2011 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1137545
no one was even gores you (except me, that is)September 18, 2011 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #1137546shmoelMember
Devorah was an exception to the rule on being a judge, for specifical reasons that are discussed. But the rule still stands that a woman cant be a judge.
.September 18, 2011 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #1137547
Thanks coffee. I knew I had one real friend here.September 18, 2011 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #1137548
Sam2 and Toi: The Mekor for what I stated is ???”? ??. ??.
I’ll translate it. Jewish women are not accepted as witnesses in Bais Din, since even the most righteous one among them denied the truth out of fear.September 18, 2011 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #1137549
What is ???”??September 18, 2011 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #1137550
Thanks coffee. I knew I had one real friend here.
I didn’t say I would bury a corpse for youSeptember 18, 2011 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1137551real sourcesMember
The Gemorah does not mention this as a source. The mishna (?????? ?.)says ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????. the Gemorah asks ????? ???? (how do we know this) Rashi explains ????? ?????? ????? (that ladies are not allowed to testify) and the Gemeorah answers that the ???? says ????? ??? ?????? (the two men stand)this teaches us that men testify, not women.
In certain cases where the judge finds the woman more credible he can accept her testimony regarding certain matters, see ?????? ??
??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??????(the Amora Rava accepted the testimony of the daughter of Rav Chisda, which he knew to be credible, despite not accepting similar testimony from the well know scholar Rav Papa )
Also in a case of ??? ????? where it is clear to bais din that there are witnesses lying, it is forbidden to rule base on male witnesses. So if women contradict male witnesses this would very often fall into such a category.
Women are technically ???? ????? however it doesn’t mean they have no credibility in Bais Din.
When it comes to Agunos women are also believed.
And of course for all matters pertaining to regular prohibitions (?? ??? ????????)they are believed.September 18, 2011 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1137552
Sam2, Chatzi Nezek is also a Gezeiras Hakosuv. Will you say there is no reason? But anyhow, wherever an Eid Echad is Kosher, so is a woman. In other words, we have no problem believing her. She is just not a Kosher Eid.
The Ben Ish Chai gives a few reasons why she is Pasul. Keep in mind, though, that Eidus in itself is a Gezeiras Hakosuv. There are times that even when Beis Din saw something themselves, we need two other people to be Eidim.September 18, 2011 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #1137553
Interestingly enough, there are Rishonim who hold that Eid Echad Ne’eman B’issurim does not apply to women. No one anywhere (I think) holds that way though.September 18, 2011 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1137554real sourcesMember
‘Interestingly enough, there are Rishonim who hold that Eid Echad Ne’eman B’issurim does not apply to women. No one anywhere (I think) holds that way though”.
I’m not familiar with any such opinion. If that was the case nobody would be able to eat at home. A ??? is clearly believed that she is ?????.September 18, 2011 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #1137555
According to them we do believe them when it is Beyada. Otherwise, you’ll need a live in Mashgiach.September 18, 2011 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #1137556
I didn’t say I would bury a corpse for you
Half a friendSeptember 18, 2011 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #1137557
No. Not a half, either.September 18, 2011 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #1137558
you should know the half a friend still does it but only becuase your his friendSeptember 18, 2011 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #1137559
HaLeiVi: Not everyone holds of Beyada either. There are some Rishonim who hold that Eid Echad Ne’eman B’Issurim does not apply to women for anything. The Mordechai points out that the reason we believe she was Tovel for this is only if we know her to be Shomer Halacha and therefore she has a Chazaka that she wouldn’t be Over on any Issurim (including Lifnei Iver so you can trust the Kashrus).September 19, 2011 12:46 am at 12:46 am #1137560
Ok, ok. I have no friends on the CR.
That is ok, I have 1 1/2 friends in real life. And coffee addict on the CR to appreciate my jokes that fall flat.September 19, 2011 12:58 am at 12:58 am #1137561gregaaronMember
If I recall the Gemara correctly, Poppa Bar Abba has several friends (and it’s not just the jokes that fall flat :-p).September 19, 2011 1:26 am at 1:26 am #1137562
And the icon for that is . . _September 19, 2011 1:43 am at 1:43 am #1137563
Actually, the Gemara in Pesachim seems to imply that even his friends didn’t like eating with Rav Pappa.September 19, 2011 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1137564gavra_at_workParticipant
Interestingly enough, there are Rishonim who hold that Eid Echad Ne’eman B’issurim does not apply to women. No one anywhere (I think) holds that way though.
And many Achronim (such as the Keztos in Shmaytza) hold Eid Echad Ne’eman B’issurim is not Eidus.February 14, 2016 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #1137565JosephParticipant
BumpFebruary 14, 2016 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #1137566☢️ Rand0m3x 🎲Participant
Popa’s ostensibly under-appreciated joke appears to have been deleted.
(I only knew to put the dash in there because of the red line.)February 16, 2016 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #1137567Avi KParticipant
Sam, please cite where Rishonim do not beleive women for anything. It is against the Gemara that says that they are believed for some things, such as things that only women would would know (see the on-line article “???” in “???? ???”). Moreover, if she is not believed for issurim her husband would have to send to men to watch her prepare food and go to the mikva. As for her having to be shomeret mitzvot, that is also true for men. BTW, today when the shetar borrerut states that both parties accept the decision whether it is din or peshara there are battei din who will hear what a woman has to say and ask the party against whom she is speaking to answer it.February 16, 2016 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #1137568JosephParticipantFebruary 16, 2016 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #1137569
well, mikva is different because of v’safra lah.February 16, 2016 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #1137570HealthParticipant
29 -“Joseph, have you ever sought help for your obsession with this subject?”
Why limit it to his obsessions? Say – Joe, have you gone for help recently?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.