Women Invalid as Witnesses

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  • #599421

    shmoel
    Member

    What is the reason that women are halachicly invalid from being witnesses in a court case?

    #1137524

    gregaaron
    Member

    Gezeiras haKasuv. (Interestingly, they are believed in very specific cases – generally to say that a man has died and his wife can remarry. Certain relatives, though, who have a chazakah of hating each other, are not allowed to testify even then.)

    #1137525

    Abelleh
    Participant

    The Gemara (Shavuot 30a) discusses this. It says because the part of the pasuk that says “and when two men will stand” (Devarim 19:17) is referring to witnesses. Men can, woman can’t.

    #1137526

    Is the reason a woman can’t be a witness the same reason that a woman can’t be a judge?

    #1137527

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Women cannot be witnesses, because they are not really jewish.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/are-women-reallyjewish

    #1137528

    Shrek
    Member

    a king also can’t be a witness. It is considered undignified for him. Perhaps the same applies in the case of women.

    #1137529

    sam4321
    Participant

    A woman is disqualified to be a witness because of a gezeiras hakasuv.

    This is not due to her lack of creditably. We find cases where there is someone who ate chelev but the eiydim don’t know if it was assur or mutar.A woman is believed based on her credibility to testify on the subject matter whether it was assur or mutar.

    #1137530

    Abelleh
    Participant

    Shrek: The Gemara rejects that Havah Aminah on Shavout 30a.

    #1137531

    oomis
    Participant

    In court, they cannot testify, but every month women give “eidus” that they have been to the Mikvah, and they are to be believed.

    #1137532

    deiyezooger
    Member

    In all aries that one person is credible i.e. issur vehetur a woman is also valid, however when there is a need for two eidim e.i. gitin, kidusin, dinei mamonois and dinei nefashos a woman is not a valid eid.

    #1137533

    chanie
    Member

    If I remember correctly the reason that women are not allowed to give ???? is because of ??? ?????. In the beginning of ???? ???? when the ???? told ?????? that next year ??? your wife will have a son, ??? laughed. She said, that she is old, and ?????? is old. When ??? appeared to ?????? and asked why ??? laughed and said “Shall I have a son when I am old”? When ?????? approached ??? and asked her why she laughed, she denied it and replied ?? ????? ?? ????.

    #1137534

    Sam2
    Participant

    Chanie: What does that story have to do with women giving testimony? It’s a Gezeiras Hakasuv.

    #1137535

    Why can’t a woman be a judge?

    #1137536

    Sam2
    Participant

    Who says they can’t? It’s a Machlokes Rishonim.

    #1137537

    What is the reason given that they can’t be a judge, per the shitta that they can’t?

    And what does Shulchan Aruch say?

    #1137538

    chanie
    Member

    Sam2: This is the original ???? on why women are Posul to give ????. Being that ??? denied laughing and grew frightened, this is the precedent set on ???? not being allowed by a woman.

    #1137539

    Sam2
    Participant

    Chanie: It’s an interesting connection. Do you have a source that actually connects the two?

    The reason given that they can’t judge, I believe, is because a Mishnah in Niddah says that if someone is Posul for Eidus then they are Posul to be a Dayan.

    #1137540

    chanie
    Member

    Sam2: I would have to go back to my seminary notes to retrieve the information. I’ll need a day or two.

    #1137542

    sam4321
    Participant

    The mekor is the gezeiras hakasuv.The mekor you mention shows a lack of creditably which in reality they are kosher for.

    #1137543

    Toi
    Participant

    chanie- maybe thats a hashkafic approach or geshmake shtickel, but its not a halachic source.

    #1137544

    oomis
    Participant

    The reason given that they can’t judge, I believe, is because a Mishnah in Niddah says that if someone is Posul for Eidus then they are Posul to be a Dayan.”

    Tell that to Devorah in Sefer Shoftim.

    #1137545

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Sorry PBA,

    no one was even gores you (except me, that is)

    #1137546

    shmoel
    Member

    Devorah was an exception to the rule on being a judge, for specifical reasons that are discussed. But the rule still stands that a woman cant be a judge.

    .

    #1137547

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Thanks coffee. I knew I had one real friend here.

    #1137548

    chanie
    Member

    Sam2 and Toi: The Mekor for what I stated is ???”? ??. ??.

    I’ll translate it. Jewish women are not accepted as witnesses in Bais Din, since even the most righteous one among them denied the truth out of fear.

    #1137549

    What is ???”??

    #1137550

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Thanks coffee. I knew I had one real friend here.

    I didn’t say I would bury a corpse for you

    #1137551

    real sources
    Member

    The Gemorah does not mention this as a source. The mishna (?????? ?.)says ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????. the Gemorah asks ????? ???? (how do we know this) Rashi explains ????? ?????? ????? (that ladies are not allowed to testify) and the Gemeorah answers that the ???? says ????? ??? ?????? (the two men stand)this teaches us that men testify, not women.

    In certain cases where the judge finds the woman more credible he can accept her testimony regarding certain matters, see ?????? ??

    ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??????(the Amora Rava accepted the testimony of the daughter of Rav Chisda, which he knew to be credible, despite not accepting similar testimony from the well know scholar Rav Papa )

    Also in a case of ??? ????? where it is clear to bais din that there are witnesses lying, it is forbidden to rule base on male witnesses. So if women contradict male witnesses this would very often fall into such a category.

    Women are technically ???? ????? however it doesn’t mean they have no credibility in Bais Din.

    When it comes to Agunos women are also believed.

    And of course for all matters pertaining to regular prohibitions (?? ??? ????????)they are believed.

    #1137552

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Sam2, Chatzi Nezek is also a Gezeiras Hakosuv. Will you say there is no reason? But anyhow, wherever an Eid Echad is Kosher, so is a woman. In other words, we have no problem believing her. She is just not a Kosher Eid.

    The Ben Ish Chai gives a few reasons why she is Pasul. Keep in mind, though, that Eidus in itself is a Gezeiras Hakosuv. There are times that even when Beis Din saw something themselves, we need two other people to be Eidim.

    #1137553

    Sam2
    Participant

    Interestingly enough, there are Rishonim who hold that Eid Echad Ne’eman B’issurim does not apply to women. No one anywhere (I think) holds that way though.

    #1137554

    real sources
    Member

    ‘Interestingly enough, there are Rishonim who hold that Eid Echad Ne’eman B’issurim does not apply to women. No one anywhere (I think) holds that way though”.

    I’m not familiar with any such opinion. If that was the case nobody would be able to eat at home. A ??? is clearly believed that she is ?????.

    #1137555

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    According to them we do believe them when it is Beyada. Otherwise, you’ll need a live in Mashgiach.

    #1137556

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I didn’t say I would bury a corpse for you

    Half a friend

    #1137557

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    No. Not a half, either.

    #1137558

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    PBA,

    you should know the half a friend still does it but only becuase your his friend

    #1137559

    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: Not everyone holds of Beyada either. There are some Rishonim who hold that Eid Echad Ne’eman B’Issurim does not apply to women for anything. The Mordechai points out that the reason we believe she was Tovel for this is only if we know her to be Shomer Halacha and therefore she has a Chazaka that she wouldn’t be Over on any Issurim (including Lifnei Iver so you can trust the Kashrus).

    #1137560

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ok, ok. I have no friends on the CR.

    That is ok, I have 1 1/2 friends in real life. And coffee addict on the CR to appreciate my jokes that fall flat.

    #1137561

    gregaaron
    Member

    @PBA:

    If I recall the Gemara correctly, Poppa Bar Abba has several friends (and it’s not just the jokes that fall flat :-p).

    #1137562

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    And the icon for that is . . _

    #1137563

    Sam2
    Participant

    Actually, the Gemara in Pesachim seems to imply that even his friends didn’t like eating with Rav Pappa.

    #1137564

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Interestingly enough, there are Rishonim who hold that Eid Echad Ne’eman B’issurim does not apply to women. No one anywhere (I think) holds that way though.

    And many Achronim (such as the Keztos in Shmaytza) hold Eid Echad Ne’eman B’issurim is not Eidus.

    #1137565

    Joseph
    Participant

    Bump

    #1137566

    Popa’s ostensibly under-appreciated joke appears to have been deleted.

    (I only knew to put the dash in there because of the red line.)

    #1137567

    Avi K
    Participant

    Sam, please cite where Rishonim do not beleive women for anything. It is against the Gemara that says that they are believed for some things, such as things that only women would would know (see the on-line article “???” in “???? ???”). Moreover, if she is not believed for issurim her husband would have to send to men to watch her prepare food and go to the mikva. As for her having to be shomeret mitzvot, that is also true for men. BTW, today when the shetar borrerut states that both parties accept the decision whether it is din or peshara there are battei din who will hear what a woman has to say and ask the party against whom she is speaking to answer it.

    #1137568

    Joseph
    Participant

    Nashim Da'atan Kalos and Women Today

    Nashim Da'atan Kalos and gemorah Avoda Zara 18b

    Joseph, have you ever sought help for your obsession with this subject? Just saying’ -29 (as if you couldn’t figure that out)

    #1137569

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    well, mikva is different because of v’safra lah.

    #1137570

    Health
    Participant

    29 -“Joseph, have you ever sought help for your obsession with this subject?”

    Why limit it to his obsessions? Say – Joe, have you gone for help recently?

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