February 23, 2009 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #589458
Is it tznius for women to dress up and wear costumes on Purim? Until what age is it perfectly acceptable and tznius for girls to dress up?
I dont think its tznius at all for women to dress up or wear costumes on Purim. I think when a girl reaches 12 then its time to stop dressing up unless its at a school function where it will be only women. I see too often on Purim these teenage girls dressing up and many times they are very untzniusdig. Some people may think because its Purim it may be ok to be a bit lax on the halachos of tznius.February 24, 2009 12:20 am at 12:20 am #1008002JosephParticipant
flatbush, thank you for raising this vital point. It is timely, and people should be cognizant of it.February 24, 2009 12:37 am at 12:37 am #1008003
Very often they are trying to reproduce characters out of the past.
If they go for accuracy the standard of tznius will likely be higher than what they noramlly wear.February 24, 2009 12:41 am at 12:41 am #1008004coke not pepsiMember
i think a mask is ok or a cute pin or cute socks or even a colorful sheitel is ok for girls who would never were it any other timeFebruary 24, 2009 1:47 am at 1:47 am #1008005ChanieEParticipant
Are you saying that it is inherently untzniusdik for women to dress up, or just that some people use Purim as an opportunity to wear outfits that are (or are perceived by some as) untzniusdik?
If the former, please bring support for this position.February 24, 2009 2:20 am at 2:20 am #1008007anonymrsParticipant
if the costume tzniusdig, whats the big deal? for example, if her hair is covered and she is covered every place she should be (not too tightly or brightly, of course) why is that wrong?February 24, 2009 2:43 am at 2:43 am #1008008shindyMember
sometimes the costumes are more tznius than some of the clothing some women wear! But you have a point, flatbush.February 24, 2009 3:23 am at 3:23 am #1008010
chanie: i think it is inherently untzniusdik for women to dress up. women have no makom to dress up and should not draw attention to themselves by dressing up as a clown or a princess or wearing a pink sheitel. i have never seen a choshuve rebbitzen in my neighborhood delivering shalach manos wearing a pink sheitel or whatever. its just not how a Bas Yisroel acts even on Purim.February 24, 2009 4:13 am at 4:13 am #1008013oomisParticipant
“its just not how a Bas Yisroel acts even on Purim.”
Then by all means, do NOT dress up on Purim. I personally do not do so. I see absolutely nothing wrong however, with other women, who want to dress in the wholesome spirit of the simchas Purim, doing something that makes them feel special and festive, besides preparing the shalcha manos as well as the seudah for the rest of their family, or watching the men, who are busy getting shikker, and acting foolishly…er… lightheartedly… have fun. I wish people would stop being such straight arrows ONE day of the year, and learn how to show their kids that v’nahapoch hu, does not only apply to men. If the outfit is inherently tzniusdik and not overly ostentatious, chill a little, and stop being so judgmental for 24 hours. And if you can’t, then as I said , please do not wear a costume yourself. But don’t spoil it for anyone else who might be so inclined, unless there is a halacha accepted by the klal that b’ferush and in these words states that it is absolutely assur for a woman to wear a costume on Purim. If so, then there is nothing further to say. If not, ditto.February 24, 2009 5:00 am at 5:00 am #1008014
ames: wow that amazing!!!February 24, 2009 5:32 am at 5:32 am #1008015
ames: i think that’s good.$February 24, 2009 5:35 am at 5:35 am #1008016anonymisssParticipant
ames, wow! That’s beautiful!
~a~February 24, 2009 6:40 am at 6:40 am #1008017
About Women dressing up on Purim – We are so busy Purim time, what Woman actually has the time to even think about dressing up on Purim ?? Between getting food ready to break the fast with, listening to the megillah, waiting for the kids to come home from their Purim parties, Preparing for the Seudah,Dressing the kids in their customes, waking up to hear Megillah again, delivering Shalach Manos, visiting Family members, throwing together extra Shlach Manos together for people you forgot to give too or exchanging ones with people yah didn’t think would give, but did, answering the door bell to Tzedakah collectors, cleaning up all the candy wrappers off the floor because the kids can’t remember to use a garbage can,(if I missed anything else, please let me know!!). Thanks but no thanks. I will be dressed up as myself. If I am lucky, I may have time to apply a little lipstick. If I am luckier, I may have time to apply some eyeliner!!February 24, 2009 6:52 am at 6:52 am #1008018
mazal: i think this was mainly about teen’s.$February 24, 2009 7:08 am at 7:08 am #1008019
qwerty… she did start the topic off with “Women” and then went on about girls over Bat Mitzvah. Anyway, if it’s a high school girl, I don’t think most teenage girls want to walk around dressed up anyway. Maybe a cute/funny hat, but that’s it. Only little girls get dressed up and if the big girls do, they usually do dressup by School Purim parties only.February 24, 2009 7:11 am at 7:11 am #1008020
mazal: ok, got it.$ 😉February 24, 2009 7:12 am at 7:12 am #1008021
mazal77: welcome back!!!!!!February 24, 2009 7:33 am at 7:33 am #1008022
don’t get so excited ASDF… just posted a little on 2 topics that I am familiar with. I am around though reading mostly and have prefered to be lurking in the shadows, and then I strike!! Good night all!!February 24, 2009 7:37 am at 7:37 am #1008023
mazal: g’ite, i hope to see you back here oon.$February 24, 2009 7:38 am at 7:38 am #1008024
mazal77: what a shame, you not stickin around!!!!!!! g’night!!!!February 24, 2009 8:00 am at 8:00 am #1008025PhyllisMember
I think it is not tzniusdig. Tznius is a way of not attracting attention to yourself. I saw a woman that was matching her kids with a big smiley face costume, yes, she attracted attention. Or ladies that wear funny makeup, or huge floppy hats…
Tznius is not only about covering ones knees…February 24, 2009 8:03 am at 8:03 am #1008026
Phyllis: welcome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!February 24, 2009 11:23 am at 11:23 am #1008027
Just curious – is there a real source for dressing up? Or is this something we adopted from the non Jews?
I personally dont have any issues with women dressing up on Purim. If its tzniusdig and appropriate, I dont know why its not proper. After all, since so many people are dressed up on Purim, they arent really attracting more attention…February 24, 2009 11:55 am at 11:55 am #1008028shindyMember
We delivered shaloch manos to the head of our daughter’s high school last year, not the principal. She was dressed as a witch and we all had a good laugh. She was completely tzanuah and did not parade around in the street, just in her own home.February 24, 2009 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #1008030JayMatt19Participant
I do not have a source handy (working on it). But I can tell you that I looked in the Mishna Brurah, and the Rama writes that even though a man cannot wear women’s clothing (and vice verse), on Purim there is no issur, since they are only doing so because of the simcha of the day. Many m’pharshim argue on this, but it is clear that there is some type of inyan of dressing up. So much so that the Rama goes as far as he does.
Trust me on this, if it were from the goyim, the Rama would not say what he does.
For all thos who want to look it up, it at the end of Hilchos Megila (at the end of the Mishna Brura)February 24, 2009 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #1008031
“I wish people would stop being such straight arrows ONE day of the year”
Purim is not a day off from Yiddishkeit and keeping the Torah even if you wish it was.February 24, 2009 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #1008032
This is in response to flatbush27 comment: ” its just not how a Bas Yisroel acts even on Purim”. I accidently posted it earlier in the wrong thread.
Alcohol breaks down the boundaries of modesty much faster than costumes that are inherently modest. If you ban women’s costumes, I would argue to restrict alcohol from women to such an extent that “sipping from the Kiddush cup” would only be barely permitted. Even the author of a very stringent book on Tznius (modesty) permits “loud” clothing in cultures that this is the norm. On Purim loud (but modest) clothing are the norm.February 24, 2009 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #1008034
“On Purim loud (but modest) clothing are the norm.”
loud clothing for a woman is immodest even on Purim because it draws attention just like the color red. and this is not the norm on Purim for frum women to dress up and wear loud clothing. it is ridiculus when i see these married women dressing up in public thinking they are still 5 yrs old.February 24, 2009 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #1008035
“I wish people would stop being such straight arrows ONE day of the year”
Purim is not a day off from Yiddishkeit and keeping the Torah even if you wish it was.
There is a difference between following halacha and being a straight arrow. I think you misunderstood Oomis’ point.
As for loud clothing – in Asia, loud colors are very normal and as far as I remember are allowed. However, there were other things that were restricted in Asia (I think that the back of the neck was considered immodest by Asian society so Jewish women covered it too).February 24, 2009 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1008036YW Moderator-39Member
from the Kof-K website:
Why do we dress in costume on Purim?
There are those who find an allusion to the story of Purim in the Torah. Hashemsaid VeAnoche Hastair Astir Es Paneye, and I will hide My face perhaps alluding tothis story. Hashem was not clearly visible to the Jews, and no obvious miracles werewrought on their behalf. Just as Hashem was hidden so are we hidden this day.February 24, 2009 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #1008037
I would say, since men and women were equally involved in the neis nistar, women should dress up just as men, provided they do it in a proper way. Men should also wear proper costumes and things that are inappropriate year round are STILL inappropriate on Purim (that goes for men and women).February 24, 2009 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1008038baal kishronParticipant
now if your costume involved hiding who you r i would agree however most costumes just bring attention to you (i think somebody mentioned a pink shaitel) in which case it would be in my opinion not tzniusFebruary 24, 2009 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #1008039
ames. im not sure why you think grown men act like 5 yr olds all yr round. maybe you should get out more or your just a feminist who enjoys putting men down for some odd reason.
sjs: you may be right that it would mutar in asia. i dont know. but i’m talking about frum Yidden in America where it is not the norm.
as for oomis point, even if a woman dresses up in a completely tzniusdiga manner it still draws attention to her which is why i feel women dressing up on Purim is not tzniusdig unless as someone pointed out, she only wears it in her own home with her family and not in the street . when you see a woman dressed up as cowboy it draws attention even if her cowboy costume covers everything its supposed to and is not loud etcFebruary 24, 2009 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #1008040
when you see a woman dressed up as cowboy it draws attention even if her cowboy costume covers everything its supposed to and is not loud etc
Men’s costumes also attract attention. But if she is walking in a neighborhood where everyone is dressed in costumes, I don’t understand why hers would be more of a draw than others.
For the record, I don’t get dressed for Purim. But I’m not the biggest fan of Purim so…February 24, 2009 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #1008041areivimzehlazehParticipant
I think this entire topic is a question of your level of SENSITIVITY toward tznius. There are no outright halachos on this, but there are many many levels of sensitivity a person can improve uponFebruary 24, 2009 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #1008042
sjs: men and women are different when it comes to attracting attention to oneself. and what do you mean in a neighborhood where everyone dresses up? Men, Women or/and children?
ames: dont go out today 🙂 its freezing 🙂February 24, 2009 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1008043
Flatbush, in a neighborhood where everyone (meaning men, women and children) are dressed in costume, a woman wouldnt really attract more attention, unless her costume was particularly flashy (in which case, it probably isnt tzanua anyway).February 24, 2009 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #1008044
If we are going to enhance the fences protecting against sin then I hereby propose the following demostration project:
On Sunday March 8: Post all around Flatbush NY Kol Koreis that will ban drinking by all women and unmarried men. Married men will only be allowed to drink slightly more than they normally and only if they get written permission from their wives. This will accomplish far more than any ban on costumes.February 24, 2009 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #1008045
josh31: i think this whole thread went over your head. no one here is saying to ban costumes. untznius costumes are assur, unmarried men drinking is mutar and its a mitzva so why should we ban it?February 24, 2009 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #1008046anonymrsParticipant
re: mazal77’s first comment
im sure you did not mean for your comment to sound insensitive, but not every woman has a family to dress and a house to get ready. some married women dont have children, or have one child so the getting ready process is very short. what about women whose children are older, who can either dress themselves or maybe dont even live at home anymore? also, many people go out for the s’uda, so there is no need to get the house and meal ready. for many people (EVEN those mommies who b”h have many children and very hectic houses) getting dressed up is part of the simchas purim. i plan on dressing up this year….nothing major, but still dressed up.February 24, 2009 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #1008047areivimzehlazehParticipant
anonymrs- thanks for the reminderFebruary 24, 2009 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #1008048kabbalah manMember
what is wrong with wereing a costume if tznuisFebruary 25, 2009 1:19 am at 1:19 am #1008049
flatbush27, You declared, “I dont think its tznius at all for women to dress up or wear costumes on Purim.” To me that means a ban.
In the last several years we have seen a lot of Gedarim (fences) in the area of tznius go up. Allowing any drunkedness leaves a huge gap in the fence.
When you have huge gaps in the fence adding a few more feet to the height of the fence is meaningless.February 25, 2009 4:30 am at 4:30 am #1008050
josh31: if to you thats a ban then fine. but why would the Rabbonim ban drunkedness on Purim when its a mitzva? Rabbonim do not ban mitzvasFebruary 25, 2009 5:41 am at 5:41 am #1008051
There is no Mitzvah to be really drunk. To drink more than usual, yes. To bring ourselves down to the level of Mamash (real) drunkenness, no. We are never commanded to degrade ourselves. We see early on in the history of man the degradation that comes from drunkenness – Noah and Lot. The Rabbis would never ask us to stoop to that level.
At that level we lose the form of being human and are completely cut off from any holiness. For example, tznius does not apply to cows.
And during times when high fences against sin are needed, then even social drinking even on Purim needs to be curtailed. Only when high fences against sin are needed do we need to consider discouraging women from dressing up in costumes on Purim.February 25, 2009 6:27 am at 6:27 am #1008052ujmParticipant
mitzvah to be drunk is to get to the point of not knowing the dif between cursed is haman and blessed is mordechai.February 25, 2009 6:53 am at 6:53 am #1008053
the drunken posts are on da wrong thread!!! i’m just sayin!!!!!February 25, 2009 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #1008054
“And during times when high fences against sin are needed, then even social drinking even on Purim needs to be curtailed. Only when high fences against sin are needed do we need to consider discouraging women from dressing up in costumes on Purim.”
josh: i have no idea why you assume i mean ‘really’ drunk when i say drunk. a person getting drunk normally is a mitzva and does not have to be curtailed on Purim. Tznius issues do have to be stopped. i’m not getting your fence analogy. if you could please explain why tznius issues should be discouraged after we ban mitzvos?March 4, 2009 12:42 am at 12:42 am #1008056kabbalah manMember
women can wear a costume like a manMarch 4, 2009 2:50 am at 2:50 am #1008057oomisParticipant
I wish people would stop being such straight arrows ONE day of the year” (oomis)
Purim is not a day off from Yiddishkeit and keeping the Torah even if you wish it was.
There is a difference between following halacha and being a straight arrow. I think you misunderstood Oomis’ point. (SJS)
Sjs was right, and Flatbush, you absolutely DID misunderstand my point. NOBODY myself included, suggested taking a day off from Yiddishkeit. But clearly your idea of what constitutes simchas Purim and Yiddishkeit, differs greatly from mine. I think you would benefit from chilling out a little and realizing that being a frum Jew does not mean we have to be dour, stern-faced, latter-day Puritans who do not know how to have fun anymore. When did the Torah command us to allow ONLY the men to enjoy yom tov? Is it not enough that we women do most if not all the work in preparing for Purim, both in terms of the seudah and the shalach manos? Should we have NOTHING for ourselves that makes us feel the simcha of the day? I personally do NOT dress in costume, because I am not comfortable enough to do so. On a day when EVERYONE is dressed crazy and brightly, I guarantee you that a women in a tzniusdig outfit that happens to be a costume, will no more stick out than they do. Try to be less judgmental. Maybe Hashem thinks YOU’RE out of line. Women are just as michuyavos in the mitzvos of Purim as men are. Worry more about the drunken fools acting untzniusdigly. That’s far more likely than the women being untzniusdig.
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