April 24, 2012 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #603087
Today, Yom HaZikaron, is a day when all the Jewish Nation joins together in one big embrace. This is a very deep day. Today we cry over those who did not just die Al Kidush Hashem, but died in order that all the Nation of Israel be able to live Al Kidush Hashem. We see from Parshat Matot, that when the Jewish People are attacked by the goyim his is a great cause of Chilul Hashem, but when we strike back with our own army we sanctify the name of Hashem in the world
“Hashem spoke to Moses saying,Take revenge for the children of Israel against the Midianites” …Moshe spoke to the people, saying…and carry out the revenge of the Lord against Midian.”
As you see from the passukim Moshe changed the command from revenge of Israel to revenge of Hashem and Rashi explains that our honor is tied with His.
Yezekiel Hanavi, in a magnificent and soul-shattering, fundamental explanation, speaks (Chapter 36:19-24) of the wrath of G-d directed at the Jews because of their sins and His driving them into Exile:
“I scattered them among the nations, into which they came, they desecrated My holy Name, in that men said of them, ‘These are the people of the L-rd and they are gone out of His land!’
“But I had pity on My holy Name, which the House of Israel had desecrated among the nations, into which they came.
“Therefore, say to the House of Israel, thus says the L-rd: I do not do this for your sake, O House of Israel, but for the sake of My holy Name, which you have desecrated among the nations, to which you came.
“And I will sanctify My great Name which was desecrated among the nations, which you have desecrated among them; then the nations will know that I am the L-rd, says the L-rd G-d, when I become sanctified IN YOU before their eyes.
“For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the lands, and I will bring you to your own land.”
Friends after 2,000 years of persecution and pain, we finally have a little joy together with the pain as it says in Tehillim 126.5 Those who sow with tears, will reap with joy, you know Reb Shlomo Carlebach once said you should read it ?????? ????? ????, ????? Those who sow with tears and joy, will reap.
Today our loud tears our mingled with silent tears of joy and tomorrow night they will switch places, but we know this is how the redemption is coming upon us.
Tonight we cry ” Like sheep, they are destined to the grave; death will devour them” (Tehiilim 49) and tomorrow we shout in glee “He took them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and He broke open their bonds (Tehillim 107).
May we merit to see the full everlasting redemption, now at this time.April 24, 2012 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #1163051
If you have something to share, please..April 24, 2012 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #1163052
Oh Uh! Here comes another one..
(..a day when all the Jewish Nation joins together) Funny, I’ve not seen this in any siddur, Jewish sefer etc. In fact until a minute ago I didn’t even know of such an existence. I mean it.
(..when we strike back with our own army we sanctify..) Really? Where does that say? I thought one makes a Kiddush HaShem by acting decently with Midos Tovos and doing HaShem’s mitzvohs. Now of course one must defend himself, but making it a “kiddush HaShem”? Highly doubt it. Rashi says nothing about the honor part, just that one who stands up against Jews is as if he stands up against HaShem.
(..we finally have a little joy..) Actually not. Now, there are a lot of Yidden living in Eretz Yisroel, learning and doing mitzvhos, more now than ever before. But we’re still in Galus. Same as before. Actually a bit worse. Never before has there been such a mass scalse “bilbul hamoach”. Kedusha and tuma mixed and mashed together. A so-called “Medinat Yisroel” built upon foundations of secular anti-Torah and anti-HaShem r”l values and idealism. So the present state of affairs has nothing in common with what Torah true Jews are awaiting for. Sorry, not in the least any “etchalta degeulah”.April 24, 2012 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #1163053
Zees: There is a time and place for Kana’us. This isn’t it. This thread was a D’var Torah about a day honoring and respecting those who have died defending Jews and Judaism in Eretz Yisrael. It’s not the place to rant against the major flaws the current government there has.April 25, 2012 1:15 am at 1:15 am #1163054HaKatanParticipant
Sam2, I was actually going to refrain from posting in this thread due to the OP’s seeming earnest and good intentions.
But since ZeesKite pointed out some of the errors made therein and you chose to dismiss those very valid points because you didn’t want anyone to miss out on this Zionist indoctrination day even though this would be corrupting, ch”V our holy Torah, I feel it’s important to clarify – if not for you, who chooses to believe otherwise despite the facts, then for others.
The main point is, to be blunt, that krum Torah, even if said earnestly, is still krum and it must be called out as such, if possible.
This is not “kanaus” and it’s certainly not a matter of “the major flaws the current government has”.
Let’s be very clear: even though MO mistakenly chooses to append this avodah zara of Zionism onto, lihavdil, our holy Torah, this does not at all negate the reality that the entire Zionist enterprise is treif and assur. Period. According to virtually every posek, it was, is and always will be. This is also pashut, to any objective observer. Facts on the ground may dictate a “There’s nothing you can do?” approach regarding the State, but this does not make it any less treif.
While the creation of this State might not have been madchik the geulah as some hold, it is certainly not the aschalta as MO and others erroneously hold, and it always has been, even more certainly, R”L a disaster for the Jewish people. Each day, R”L, shows yet another reason that this was a really bad idea, just as the gedolim all foretold. Amazingly, “religious Zionists” persist in their Zionism despite all this.
No, there is no joy from the bloody results of this needless and anti-Torah experiment.April 25, 2012 2:27 am at 2:27 am #1163055
Leaving aside the content but looking at the words you used to put down others to convey your point I guess you are trying to make the point that its okay to be sarcastic and condescending to another Jew, as long as you aren’t a Zionist.April 25, 2012 4:21 am at 4:21 am #1163056derszogerMember
Yasher Koach ZeesKite and HaKatan.April 25, 2012 6:41 am at 6:41 am #1163058simcha613Participant
I’m not denying the fact that there are issues with the Israeli government, but it’s no worse than any other secular government. In fact, it’s probably better. Because of the government (and yes, I know, really it’s because of Hashem using the government as a messenger), there is more Torah, Tefilah, and Jews in Eretz Yisroel since probably the fall of Beitar. This is something not to be taken lightly, and yet is by many “anti-Zionists.” Many people want the government of Israel to be “frum” or at least super pro religious, and when it doesn’t give the Torah learners of EY special benefits, they criticize the government as anti-frum. Again, obviously there are some issues (like the recent kol ishah controversy) but if you look at EY as a whole, things have never been better and we have the medinah (and Hashem) to thank.
And in terms of atchalta legeulas, I personally don’t know what that means. I mean, everything leads to the geulah, no? The Holocaust in some way was also probably atchalta legeulas. I don’t know what it means to say the medinah is or isn’t. But whatever it means, I have heard that 2 “signs” of atchalta legeulas is kibutz galuyos and the fact that the Land of Israel which is normally a barren wasteland, becomes incredibly fruitful. Both of these conditions have been fulfilled (if you consider the fact that such a high percentage of World Jewry live in EY [and that number keeps on growing] as a form of kibutz galuyos).April 25, 2012 7:14 am at 7:14 am #1163059HaLeiViParticipant
It’s definitely a Chillul Hashem when Yidden are attacked. That’s when the nations say, Ayei Hashem Elokeichem.April 25, 2012 9:17 am at 9:17 am #1163060abcd2Participant
Yom Hazikaron is purely a remembrance day to recognize and give thanks to those that fell defending the Jews in Eretz Yisrael.
Even if there would be no state we would still need people to defend us. There has been from the secular and frum the concept of Yishuv Eretz yisrael enmasse for the past few hundred years. If you recall the Baal shem tov , the vilna gaon and rav yisroel salanter all encouraged settlement.Whom would you like to protect the people that are there?The antisemitic U.N. peacekeepers or the arabs? We must give thanks and remember those who gave there lives for us.
The point above that this is not in a siddur or sefer has no relevance. Throughout the centuries people have declared celebrations and remembrances such as specific communal fast days or communal purims.Unfortunately are brothers and sisters are not educated enough that perhaps such a day should be spent saying Tehilim or fasting,but there is nothing at all wrong with the concept itself.
Regarding the comment of the secular and the holy being so mixed up,this is tragically true.But realize this is also the fault of the Frum community as much as the secular, if we would reach out nicely instead of with hate, the love would go a long way. The average secular Israeli thinks they know everything they dont know about Yiddishkeit. Education,less stupid zealotry(not one person ever became shomer shabbos by having a rock thrown at them),and accountability and hakaras hatov(the non-frum Israeli society is by default the largest supporter of Torah in the world) would go along way to changing the anti frum atmosphere,and be mikarev more people to the camp of Torah.
Anybody that dies defending the Jews or simply because they are Jewish dies Al Kiddush Hashem.Whether you are for or against the Medina you still have to give thanks and remember the Jews who gave their lives and are still risking their lives defending us. It should definitely be part of your routine to remember the living soldiers and the Kedoshim in your Tefillos and Tehillim.
To hakatan “No, there is no joy from the bloody results of this needless and anti-Torah experiment. ” Dont throw out the baby with the bathwater. Chasvishalom to say that no joy has come about over the last 64 years.As I mentioned above the AntiTorah part is very much are fault almost as much as the seculars.If Bp Flatbush Lakewood and williamsburg would empty out we could change the anti frum climate and bring some moderation to the crazy so called frum zealots. We have become all to comfortable in our galus.May Hashem shield us from any more sorrow and bring Moshiach bimheira BiyamenuApril 25, 2012 9:42 am at 9:42 am #1163061marvafanMember
stop thinking and start learning. a kiddush hashemis whenever the power of G-d is shown and it was for exactly that reason we have recived the third jewish commenwealth right after teh hillel hashem of ww2April 25, 2012 11:46 am at 11:46 am #1163062
Zees – With all due respect, you’re a little black and white on an issue that that’s got a million shades of grey. I’m going to disagree that that “bilbul hamoach” is worse today than ever. Have you heard of the Haskalah? Have you studied what happened to Western European Jewry in the aftermath of the French Revolution? Would you prefer to go to Israel and land at Queen Elizabeth Airport and have your passport stamped by the British? Or a Turk?
We all have to realize that while the medina came about largely through the hands of anti -Torah personalities, it is a reality now. Yes, there are many, many problems as the government is not run by the Torah. However, as Rav Pam points out on Parshas Shelach, we should learn from the meraglim and not speak Loshon Harah about our Eretz Yisroel – yes, even the government. And, I would add, when it comes to Yom HaZikaron, please speak with respect about those who made the ulimate sacrifice for the safety of their people.April 25, 2012 12:30 pm at 12:30 pm #1163064Feif UnParticipant
Thank you abcd2, that was a very well written post, and I agree with it 100%.
R’ Shlomo Zalman Aurbach zt”l was known to tell people that when he wanted to daven at kivrei tzadikim, he went to Har Hertzel to daven at the graves of the fallen soldiers.April 25, 2012 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #1163065
abcd2: Thank you for modeling respectful disagreement. Its a dying midda.April 25, 2012 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #1163066Loyal JewMember
Allowing MOs to post and start topics is asking for trouble at any time and especially today and tomorrow. They’re doing what seems impossible: making NK look better and better. Maybe the answer is to require members to state who their rosh yeshiva and posek are before they are accepted.April 25, 2012 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #1163067rr6527Member
Please do not be disrespectful to the many, many men and women who have given their lives to protect OUR Eretz Yisroel. This is meant to be a day to remember them.April 25, 2012 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #1163068
marvafan: OK. I’m stopping to think.
Now about your comment about receiving the third Jewish commonwealth.. (whatever that means).
Read up a bit what Rabbi Miller has to say about this subject. OK? I’m not at all a Kanai (or however you spell it), just don’t misrepresent and fabricate history. As he says, your “commonwealth” was built directly from the blood of the Kedoshim. Read up. Read other history works. Try to get a copy of “Perfidy”. Read.
Read how those reshaim at the time used the world sympathy to create this new entity. Read how they laid claim to be heirs of the Kedoshei Europe.
Could I start thinking again.April 25, 2012 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #1163069
(With all due respect)
No respect at all is needed. As stated over and over, I’m a cute little pudgy punk.
(million shades of grey.. disagree that that “bilbul hamoach” is worse today). There you have it. You stated that its not black & white, then you state there’s not such a bilbul hamoach. In fact that is exacly what I’m referring to. There is so much Kedusha involved, as I stated. Kedushas Ha’aretz, Torah learning (Toras Eretz Yisrooel), Mekomos Hakedoshim, special mitzvohs of Eretz Yisroel. At the other side (and concurrently) there’s all these “movements”, anti-Torah, anti-HaShem. So many “deyos”, so many different factions.
Of course now a lot of Yidden live there, and Torah flourishes by leaps and bounds. No thank you to the Zionist inventors. Just like the claim of ?? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????, and HaShem’s response.
My theory? HaShem is showering us with an abundance of Chesed and protection IN SPITE of the armies, government, agencies etc. ??? ?? ?? ????.
btw, what do they do on this “yom zikaron”? Do they learn Mishnayos? Make a sium Hashas? At least some “tikun”?April 25, 2012 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #1163070dying of boredomParticipant
You may not agree with the way the soldiers are commemerated, and having a national day for them and a moment of silence. But no one can deny the fact that 22,993 people died Al Kiddush Hashem, to protect Eretz Yisrael, to protect the Jewish people living there.April 25, 2012 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #1163071zahavasdadParticipant
Of course now a lot of Yidden live there, and Torah flourishes by leaps and bounds. No thank you to the Zionist inventors. Just like the claim of ?? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????, and HaShem’s response.
If it wasnt for the Zionist, there were be no Torah in E”Y. Perhaps there might be a yeshiva or 2 in a PALESTINE Ghetto where daily beatings of Averchim occur, and people living under duress for fear of another Pogrom (Its not Terrorism when the government does the acts)April 25, 2012 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1163072msseekerMember
So the first women-inducting army in the world is a kiddush Hashem? One of the higher-ups in the Israeli army said, “The men are there to fight. And the women – everybody knows why we need them in the army.” How about Israeli brothels servicing the soldiers – would they also be a kiddush Hashem because they give our troops the energy to protect Am Yisrael?April 25, 2012 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #1163073
zeeskite, hakatan, and others…
WHERE will you run to when it ‘hits the fan’ in this ‘goldena medina’ – (As it looks like it soon will) – Poland? France? Russia?
Israel is indeed very, very far from the way it SHOULD be, (and ultimately WILL be)…
But – Thank you HaSh-m for giving us the opportunity to return to our land with sovereignty over it, thank you for Your many neesim throughout the last 64 years, AND thank you HaSh-m for the brave soldiers who, at risk of their life and limb, and too often, with the LOSS of their lives or limbs, defend our Land and People – even those who defame and speak evil about them. May the memory of these kedoshim be blessed.April 25, 2012 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1163074
I wonder about those who trumpet Daas Torah on this issue, much as Rav Dov Lipmann has wondered. I will try to paraphrase some of his positions for you here. How can you go against the words of the Neviim, Geonim, achronim and recent gedolim?
in Vayikro 26:32 we are told that if bnei yisroel are in golus, eretx yisroel will remain desolate. Rabbeinu Bachya in his peirush on Bereishis 17:8 says that the reversal of that desolation indicates the end of golus. He cites Yechezkel perek 36, Yishayohu perek 51 and Amos perek 9. I would add Yirmiyohu perek 31. All describe the growth of trees and fruits in Israel as an indication of the atchalta degeula and the ikveso demeshicho.
Assuming clear pshat in Novi is not sufficient, the Gemoro in Sanhedrin 98a restates and clarifies this. And meshches Megilla 17b says that first there will be kibutz goluyos, then the flourishing of the fruits of Israel, and then biyas hamoshiach and the binyan bayis shlishi.
Rav Zvi Hirsch Kalischer in Shivat Zion, volume 2, pp. 51-52 quotes Rav Akiva Eiger that if we succeed in growing fruit in Israel then the final geulo is imminent.
Does someone want to argue that the land isn’t flowering and fruitful as never before? Did you know that Israel is the only country in the world that had more trees at the end of the 20th century than it did at the beginning?
Even if one looks at secular Zionists as wicked (and those I hope HKBH has rachamim on), Gemoro Sanhedrin 102b cites HKBH bringing nisim and geulos through some of the wicked kings of Malchus Yisroel. So why not the Zionists as his instruments as well? A lack of bitochon?
And who can ignore the Maharal, who says in Gvuros Hashem perek 18 that the moshiach will establish a new malchus, which will emerge from the first malchus that will precede it. This is so because malchus yisroel hakodosh sprouts from an unsanctified malchus.
More recently, the Tzitz Eliezer says that kibutz goluyos alone is the sign of the atchalto degeulo – 7:49.
Bottom line is that some of you take being mevazeh neviim, geonim, achronim, and gedolim with your assertions very lightly, and in the process you also insult 23000 Jews who gave their lives for am yisroel. Well, you will have to stand before the One who gives din vecheshbon and explain yourself. Good luck with that.April 25, 2012 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #1163075MiddlePathParticipant
YosHChayal, amen. And thank you for your services in the army which helped let Jews in Israel continue doing mitzvos and learning Torah. May the fallen soldiers be remembered for blessing.April 25, 2012 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #1163076takahmamashParticipant
btw, what do they do on this “yom zikaron”? Do they learn Mishnayos?
In my shule, yes, they do learn Mishnayot and say Tehillim in memory of the fallen soldiers.
Of course now a lot of Yidden live there, and Torah flourishes by leaps and bounds. No thank you to the Zionist inventors..
Because the Turks/British/Arabs would certainly allow all these Jews into Israel to live and learn, right? If there were a “rolling my eyes” symbol I would insert one here.April 25, 2012 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #1163077
Today in the National-Religious community, psecial shiurim are held throughout the day and yes we do stand for the moment of silence. There are many sources for this.
Because Aaron was silent, he was rewarded that G-d spoke exclusively to him
Rav Papa said: The merit of attending a house of mourning lies in the silence observed.
(Talmud, Berachot 6b)
In youth, one learns to talk; in maturity, one learns to be silent. This is man’s problem: that he learns to talk before he learns to be silent.
(Rabbi Nachman of Breslav)
The power to be silent at certain moments of life and of history is an important strength. It expresses the awareness that G-d is infinite, and cannot be encapsulated in our human conceptions of what should take place.
The Talmud tells of an instance in which Moses himself was told by G-d to be silent. G-d showed him in a vision all future generations of the Jewish people, and the leaders of each generation. Moses was greatly impressed by the wisdom of Rabbi Akiva. Then he saw the way the Romans tortured him to death. “Is this the reward of his Torah knowledge?” Moses asked. G-d answered: “Be silent. Thus it arose in My thought”.
This is not to say that the Torah advocates a fatalistic approach to life. Before the event, one must do everything possible to prevent tragedy. But once it has happened, G-d forbid, through the acceptance and the silence we reach a special closeness to the Divine. Our Sages tell us that because Aaron was silent, he was rewarded by G-d speaking directly to him.
In our generation, too, there is a need for this power of silence. It is not a passive power, but one that leads to vigorous and joyous action. The Jewish response to the harrowing events of the Shoah is the determined and energetic action to rebuild Jewish family life and Jewish knowledge.
Through our power of silence we too, like Aaron, will merit Divine revelation. G-d will bring the Messiah, rebuilding the Temple and bringing lasting peace to the world.
(The Lubavitcher Rebbe)April 25, 2012 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #1163078ymbMember
at the moment,and since 1948 nowhere is safe but eretz yisroel was and is the least safe of all places…..cuz of the medina.April 25, 2012 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #1163079
Loyal Jew, hmm, now MO’s, who’s next? Chabad? Vishnitzers? Bobovers, Munkatchers? Maybe Yekkes? Maybe Galitzianers?
You know what? My g-grandfather(x8) R’Pinchas Haleivi Horowitz the Hafloh encountered many people – balabatim, heilige yidden, who were so taken aback by his capacity to be not only a Rav and Posek but also an adherent of chasidus that they wanted to kick him out of Frankfurt. He wasn’t yeshivish enough for them. Boruch Hashem people for whom the achdus and shleimus of am yisroel had meaning won out. May you be blessed with the insight of those people, who understood eilu voeilu divrei elokim chayim.April 25, 2012 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1163080derszogerMember
Torah has been growing and growing in Eretz Yisroel before the zionists ever existed. Torah Yidden livedin EY before the zionists. And continued flourishing DESPITE the zionists.April 25, 2012 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #1163081
I don’t know what everybody does on Yom Hazikoron, but I did see that there was a very beautiful ceremony at the Kosel which included Tehilim, Kadish (by a father who recently lost his son in Gaza) and Kel Moleh. What can I say? It was moving.April 25, 2012 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1163082
yichusdik -Now I could argue that -that’s not what these Gedolim meant or other Gedolim said these Shittas were wrong, but that’s not the point. The point isn’t either whether to have a day remembering the killed soldiers -this in itself isn’t wrong.
The point is, what you “Frum” Zionim fail or don’t want to understand is this:
What does the Gov. do on this day? They speak about how strong they are -how strong their army is and how much stronger they & the army will be. People who learned all the Torah, not just pick bits & pieces to fit their fancy, understand this is clearly Koach V’oizem Yodi Ossoh Ess Hachayil Hazeh.
Being like this is Direct Kefira against Hashem and is one of the reasons Hashem brings destruction on the Jews. (Parsha Tochocha)
So to summarize, remembering the fallen in itself might be a good thing, but since this causes a Great Chilul Hashem, it’s better off not to have such a day.
Why can’t you understand this simple concept? Why do you have such Negious to the Freye Medina?April 25, 2012 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1163083
Well, my post didn’t get through. Maybe it’s better that way. My point was that my post wasn’t any sort of Zionist indoctrination or whatever that means. I was just saying that, while there is definitely much to discuss about how the Medinah isn’t Al Pi Torah and what could be better, a thread dedicated to commemorating soldiers who gave their lives defending Jews and Judaism isn’t the place.
And HaKatan, maybe you should take a lesson from Zeeskite. She (he?) can be a Kanoi without showing an abject hatred for the subjects she addresses. There’s a fine line between Kana’us and Sinas Chinam. Be very careful when walking it.April 25, 2012 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #1163084Feif UnParticipant
derszoger: Actually, in the early 1900s, there was not a large Jewish population in E”Y at all. They were subject to pogroms from the Arabs. Look at what happened in 1929 – there were massacres in Chevron and Tzfas, while the police stood by and watched.April 25, 2012 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #1163085
Feif Un – This was discussed over & over. The Pogroms started after the Zionist movement infruiated the Arabs.
And the reason that many Jews didn’t live there at the time was because they didn’t have air travel.
Who knows -if not for the Tzionists making a State -maybe Moshiach would be here already?
It would have been easy for Hashem to transport all Jews there by airfare -some say this is the meaning of Kanfey Nesharim.April 25, 2012 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #1163086Loyal JewMember
Yichusdik, my point is that today there are blogs and boards for all purposes. We agree that people who believe in toeva r”l shouldn’t post here. People who think Torah is a waste of time r”l shouldn’t post here. So MOs who still believe in the medina shouldn’t post here. It’s not a question of open mindedness because right and wrong aren’t “differing views.”April 25, 2012 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #1163087
a few points…
To say that the medina exists because of “Kochi V’otzem Yodi asoh Es Hachayil Hazeh” i.e. because of the might of the IDF IS kefira and 100% wrong.
However… those who say there was a Jewish yishuv and Torah learning going on in Eretz Yisrael BEFORE the medina are ALSO wrong on a few counts. For one thing (as was mentioned above) there were always arab attacks on Jews in those days such as the most ‘famous’ one – the massacre in Hevron in ’29. Secondly, would ANYONE here suggest that the gedolim IN Eretz Yisrael NOW should tell all the Jews to leave E.Y.? I don’t think so.
So… we have to deal with what the REALITY is NOW. The reality is that without the IDF, ALL the Jews in E.Y. would be slaughtered in a matter of days, and that’s chilonim AND chareidim and everything in between. If you will say that it is the chareidim and chareidi gedolim in E.Y. that give everyone their protection, and NOT the IDF, then i would pose the following question… Do you think that the Jews (even the chareidi Jews) are on a level to merit the neesim g’luyim that would be necessary to keep them alive WITHOUT the IDF?!?
To me it is clear that Israel exists today ONLY with the help of HKB”H and he uses the IDF as his shluchim, since we (or at least enough of the Yidden in E.Y.) have enough merit for neesim nistarim (i.e. protection via the IDF) but NOT enough merit to depend TOTALLY on the neesim g’luyim (there HAVE BEEN b.t.w. plenty of isolated cases neesim g’luyim too!) that would be needed without the IDF.
Bottom line… Everything comes from HaSh-m, but His shluchim who put their lives at risk to protect ALL the Jews in E.Y. deserve our respect, and those who were killed al kidush HaSh-m, ha’Am, v’haAretz deserve for us to memorialize their ultimate sacrifice.April 25, 2012 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #1163088
I don’t know what “believing in the medina” means?
If it means that I think the State of Israel is a Jewish State the way a Jewish State SHOULD be, -then without any doubt, I do NOT ‘believe’ in the medina.
If it means that i believe HaSh-m has given the Jewish People sovereignty over (at least part of) Eretz Yisrael prior to the coming of Mashiach, -for whatever His reasons may be, then Yes, I ‘believe’ in the medina.
And if it means that I think we should mourn those who gave their lives defending Jews, then yes, i certainly do ‘believe’ in the medina.
And by the way, who put you in charge of what is right and what is wrong, what constitutes right and wrong vs ‘differing views’, and who should be allowed to comment on Y.W.?April 25, 2012 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #1163089Josh31Participant
HaKatan, Loyal Jew, msseeker, derszoger, ymb and Health,
Which day or days will you be wearing the potato sacks this year, Thursday or Friday or both?
ZeesKite, as much as you would like to show your disdain for Zionism, wearing potato sacks is not proper for women.April 25, 2012 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #1163090musser zogerParticipant
Loyal jew- Yichusdik, my point is that today there are blogs and boards for all purposes. We agree that people who believe in toeva r”l shouldn’t post here. People who think Torah is a waste of time r”l shouldn’t post here. So MOs who still believe in the medina shouldn’t post here. It’s not a question of open mindedness because right and wrong aren’t “differing views.”
I get it! So what you’re saying is :
1) People who propagate sinas chinam by “knocking other frum Jews shouldn’t post here.
2) People who use hateful words to other frum jews who disagree with them shouldn’t post here.
3) People who use onaas devarim in the CR shouldn’t post here.
Thanks Loyal jew, I got it!April 25, 2012 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #1163091
Health, I gave a lot of thought to answering your post. And I thought twice because I didn’t want to answer rashly.
You wrote – “The point is, what you “Frum” Zionim fail or don’t want to understand is this:”
Really, Health, if you get some kind of gratification from putting my frumkeit, or that of other Zionists, in quotation marks, go right ahead. I answer to HKBH’s yardstick, not to yours.
You go on to write
“What does the Gov. do on this day? They speak about how strong they are -how strong their army is and how much stronger they & the army will be. People who learned all the Torah, not just pick bits & pieces to fit their fancy, understand this is clearly Koach V’oizem Yodi Ossoh Ess Hachayil Hazeh.”
Well, you happen to be quoting a posuk I’ve known and studied intimately, as it is in my bar mitzvah parsha. But I will tell you, I have been lucky in my professional and personal life to have met and interacted with 3 Israeli Prime Ministers and one President. I’ve had many hours of discussion with soldiers in the IDF, from the level of General to Private, from jobnikim to elite commandos. I can’t count the number of times they have described the nisim and niflo’os involved in the creation and the defense of Israel. It’s simply slander to describe these people in the way you have.
Menachem Begin, who I never met, was a God fearing and God praising Jew. If you ever bothered to read his books or speeches, he was constantly thanking HKBH for his nisim. Every motzoei shabbos in his apartment he would gather talmidei chachomim and intellectuals for a parsha shiur and discussion.
President Peres, who I first met when he was foreign minister, and later when he was President, has said this explicitly and publicly. He has worked with many frum organizations, including Aish Hatorah, and has publicly given thanks to HKBH for their work.
Bibi Netanyahu praised and quoted the Lubavitcher Rebbe in his speech to the UN in September. Look it up. He also made detailed reference to Chizkiyahu hamelech and our sovereignty and yearning over hundreds of generations. Nothing, not a word like you describe. Look it up. He closed with an ‘im yirtzeh hashem, and his last line was a quote from Yishayohu. You are either wilfully ignoring facts or you are sadly mistaken in your assumptions.
“Being like this is Direct Kefira against Hashem and is one of the reasons Hashem brings destruction on the Jews. (Parsha Tochocha)”
It might be if it were true. I’ve given personal edus and public expressions that it is not true. And more – Please, talk to any individual who has been in combat. I’ve talked to dozens. Even the most secular of them will not say kochi v’otzem yodi. Most will say Hashem protected them. Even the Atheists among them will say their comrades were the giborim, not them. Show me a boastful chayal who says kochi veotzem yodi, and I will show you someone who has never been in combat.
“Why can’t you understand this simple concept? Why do you have such Negious to the Freye Medina?”
I am proud to have such negious to the medina. There could be a number of reasons for it. Two of my four grandparents were Yerushalmim, and their families had to leave because of the oppression of the Turks before we were sovereign. Some of my (frum) relatives helped establish the state,and too many of my father’s family perished because of a lack of it.
I studied Jewish History both within the frum velt and academically, and write about it. I know my sources. I know the cost of not having sovereignty.
I know that the flourishing of Torah in the last 64 years would never have happened without a sovereign Jewish state.
I worked to get Russian Jews out of danger and to Israel when Pamyat was collecting their addresses for a pogrom in 1990. The state you curse took them in. You probably don’t even know who Pamyat were.
One of the most incredible Jews I ever met was a not very religious old man named Micha Feldman. Micha organized the airlift of Ethiopian Jews in 1991, saving them from persecution and starvation. (Rav Moshe Feinstein endorsed the rescue of Ethiopian Jews before he was nifter). Micha also created an organization to help families of victims of terror. He didn’t discriminate between frum and frei. Micha worked with and for the government you curse, and he also thanked HKBH for the miracles he was involved in.
I could go on, but I think it is unlikely any of this will have an impact on you. You make and advocate seemingly false assumptions about other Jews. You will also have to answer for them before HKBH.April 25, 2012 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #1163092abcd2Participant
“btw, what do they do on this “yom zikaron”? Do they learn Mishnayos? Make a sium Hashas? At least some “tikun”?”
It was a chesed from Hashem that we were granted the knowledge of being Frum:
Let us take upon something to help our Jewish brothers and sisters.I suggest that it would be much more constructive as it really is pas nisht to sully the memories of people who die Al kiddush Hashem,whom the vast majority cannot be taken to task for not having a Torah true lifestyle.
For better or worse the soldiers are there to defend us and put their lives on the line defending even the most anti zionistic charedie so he can live in Meah Shearim. Saying a Kapitel Tehillim in their memory today or any day, or in the zechus that Hashem grants continued Shmira has nothing to do with the Medina.
If you would like change, or their observance is not up to par please stop taking to task instead say tehillim, do more mitzvos have extra Kavana in shemone Esrei when referencing teshuva es tzemach dovid ata chonen etc.. be mikarev an Israeli to help bring about change.
Heart felt pleas can change the situation that Hashem should along with OUR EFFORTS help bnei Yisrael in Eretz yisrael and America to choose the right path.
Sadly,much of their anti-frum sentiment is our own fault, if only we would be dan lekaf zechus and be mekarev properly.It is a tremendous Bracha to be fully aware of the beauty of Yiddishkeit,and it is a chesed from Hashem.Imagine if chasvishalom we were not frum would hearing constant criticisms help us want to be frum?
We all know Devarim hayotzim min halev, nichnasim el halev. We can easily reach the hearts of our brothers and in turn inspire the feelings of Rachmonus from Hashem to bring the full Geula if we all try.April 25, 2012 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #1163093
Musser zoger: If only!April 26, 2012 12:12 am at 12:12 am #1163094
abcd2: I agree wholeheartedly. BEAUTIFULLY WRITTEN!!April 26, 2012 12:14 am at 12:14 am #1163095
abcd2 – Yasher Koach for your moving words. You’re absolutely right that the frei chilonim in E”Y need kiruv way more than any harsh words. It’s already 3 generations into the reality of the medina, and so many Israelis have been robbed of their Jewish Education. But they still know where they’re from…
Here’s a story that just happened last week. Someone in my community nebach lost his father and the kvura was in E”Y. This man was returning to the States immediately after the kvura. He came back and said that at the airport in Tel Aviv, so many total strangers – and among them many, many chilonim who had to cover their heads with their arms to make up for their lack of a yarmulka – saw him, assessed what had happened to him by the rip in his jacket, and stopped him to wish him HaMokom Yinachem.
I don’t know about you, but I never heard such a story coming out of JFK or Newark…April 26, 2012 12:15 am at 12:15 am #1163096writersoulParticipant
Okay, peeps, 23,000 people DIED to help SAVE JEWISH PEOPLE. Where they live is NOT THE POINT. This is a day in GRATITUDE and in MEMORIAL. That. Is. All.
Shalom al Yisrael! (In all senses of the phrase!)April 26, 2012 12:17 am at 12:17 am #1163097msseekerMember
Loyal Jew, the truth is that WE shouldn’t be posting here. If this is the Yeshivah World, the yeshivishe velt has become Mizrachi. Just read the news page – almost all Israeli news either bashing chareidim or applauding our precious ????? ?? ??????. Face it, we’re on a Religious Zionist website.April 26, 2012 12:24 am at 12:24 am #1163098
Josh31: ME!? I wrote many times before, I’m not a canoe, kanai or however else you spell it. I don’t have a need to show my disdain for that, as I have no need to go protest for any of the other many “worthy” causes. I just don’t buy the modern day replacement of Am Hanivchar, I still think HaShem is in charge of His world, and that we have avodas HaShem to accomplish. That mitzvas yishuv haaretz (if applicable) is but one of his many other commandments. I have no need or use to go out to demonstrate or fight.April 26, 2012 12:27 am at 12:27 am #1163099
I was told that there was a sign up in the YU Beis Medrash today that all the learning would be done L’ilui Nishmas those who died Al Kiddush Hashem protecting Jews and Eretz Yisroel. Is there anything whatsoever wrong with that?April 26, 2012 3:51 am at 3:51 am #1163100
yichusdik -“It might be if it were true. I’ve given personal edus and public expressions that it is not true”
You know how to write a lot, but unfortunately for you I can cut through the smog. It is true and stop about what some say privately or sometimes publically. I want to know did any Gov. official mention Hashem in any of the speeches on Rememberance day? I doubt it. I saw some quotes of speeches, but no mention. No, I didn’t listen to every speech but I’m sure Hashem wasn’t mentioned. All the speeches are just basically Koach V’oizem etc.
The result of having a Yom Zicahrohn is just more Kefira. So there should be No official day.
At least you’re honest and admit that you’re Nogiea B’dovor – so you will never see the truth. But the truth is the State is based on Kefira, even if you find some good here and there.April 26, 2012 11:30 am at 11:30 am #1163101
Well, Health, that’s certainly a convincing response. It’s OK, though. I understand that it is hard to change a misguided way of thinking in a flash. I’ll daven for you.
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