Zumba=Not Tzanuah?

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  • #600894

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    Why do some people consider zumba not tznius (even in an all women’s class?) I have never done zumba, but is it the music, the type of moves?

    I am not questioning any psak of a Rov, I am just trying to understand.

    #931158

    Take your pick,

    Someone will find something objectionable about pretty much anything.

    Especially regarding issues dealing with “tznius”

    #931159

    mamashtakah
    Member

    Because some people have nothing better to do with their lives than constantly worry about what other people are “doing wrong.”

    #931160

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    What is a Zumba?

    I assume it is a dance class (that is what Wikipedia says). If so, why should it be different than other types of Untznius dance?

    #931162

    skiaddict
    Member

    Zumba is fun and no one should dare take that away from us under tznius pretenses! I think people have problems with the type of moves is not refined but whateva..

    #931163

    WIY
    Member

    Cleverjewishpun

    “Someone will find something objectionable about pretty m Especially regarding issues dealing with “tznius””

    Unfortunately the Rabbanim can’t speak enough about Tznius and any time it is spoken about people get offended. We live in a time when the world is extremely immodest and its perfectly normal by non Jews to show skin.

    I was walking today in boropark and I saw a frum looking girl wearing a skirt which missed the top of her knees by about an inch or so. You want to tell me this is normal?! Things are spiraling out of control and nobody wants to do anything about it. But we all wonder why tragedy after tragedy hits us. No need to mention all the Gedolim passing away on an almost weekly basis. The amount of personal tragedy going on in families is unprecedented. The cholim tehillim lists keep growing. The shidduchim crisis keeps growing, kids going off keeps growing and when you tell people its time to care about Tznius nobody wants to hear it. Lets go do some sgulos or rub some magic lamps or go to some mekubal. That will solve Everything!

    Tznius is a geder. If you dress Tznius you won’t come to having boyfriends…for a girl the spiral down starts with Tznius. Same thing for a married woman. If she doesn’t dress Tznius she opens herself up to be approached by men in college the work place wherever. Tznius is a way of saying keep back. Im a kosher girl.

    #931164

    gotchyagood
    Member

    people consider it x tznius because,yeah the moves,u wudnt dance like that by a wedding,would you?and also the music a lot of classes use non-jewish music.however im not against it at all.i think its great excercise and fun when you do it with friends(just dont do the moves that u learn there at home when any male relatives are around)have fun!!

    #931165

    skiaddict
    Member

    WIY- your right. We need reminders all the time. Thanx for that.

    #931166

    @WIY

    “But we all wonder why tragedy after tragedy hits us. No need to mention all the Gedolim passing away on an almost weekly basis. The amount of personal tragedy going on in families is unprecedented. The cholim tehillim lists keep growing. The shidduchim crisis keeps growing, kids going off keeps growing and when you tell people its time to care about Tznius nobody wants to hear it. Lets go do some sgulos or rub some magic lamps or go to some mekubal. That will solve Everything!”

    The gedolim that have passed away have all been elderly or very ill.

    The cholim list keeps growing because people are living longer and over a longer life you are more liable to get sick..especially towards the end

    Kids are going off the derech due to the rigidness of certain derachim and the abuse/hypocrisy that goes on in every community that calls themselves frum.

    I will however agree with you that people are always looking for quick fixes and magic tricks.

    But to blame skirt lengths or dance classes for every thing affecting klal yisrael is both ignorant and dangerous

    Is tznius something that is important? Yes it is, but it is not the end all be all to yiddishkeit. Nor is it a geder to “keep boys away” Let me clue you in, most boys who find themselves in a position to talk to the opposite gender would do so even if they were in the “BY Girl” uniform

    A girl that respects herself and has decent self esteem is less likely to get involved in promiscuity. Seems to me that can be accomplished by a loving and nutruing enviroment, rather than some kanoim running around with rulers measuring skirt lengths.

    #931167

    seeallsides
    Participant

    Sorry if this seems narrow minded–it is not tznius to discuss this issue on a public forum-do you want someone to clarify exactly which movement of which part of the body causes whatever….be honest – tznius is a way of life-it should be a primary concern in everything we do, and too bad if it’s not as much fun to touch your toes in a model’s coat than to zumba in a fitted lycra leotard-fun with a lack of tznius leads to activities and a mindset that are not fitting for a bas yisroel.

    #931168

    plumba
    Member

    WIY, I too was in BP today and I saw hundreds of frum people dressed entirely appropriately. And ive seen enough girls dressed tznius with boyfriends. Maybe the lesson in all the tragedies is to be more in how we treat our fellow man.

    #931169

    skiaddict
    Member

    I remember learning in Rabbi Falks sefer that immodesty is the cause of tragedy in the world(if someone wants i can try go through the whole sefer again to find where he quotes it)

    #931170

    RSRH
    Member

    You know, Skiaddict, just because someone writes something in a book doesn’t mean its actually true. Especially when the thing he’s writing would require some kind of nevuah or ruach hakodesh.

    #931171

    zaidy78
    Participant

    Just from what I searched online (r”l) it looks more like break dancing for girls. Is there anything wrong with break dancing??? Nothing really, it is more of who is associated with it. If you want dance classes, get dance classes, just don’t learn how to dance like a goy!!

    If I would hear such things coming out of my daughters bedroom, I would begin to get VERY nervous!!

    #931172

    I think if you watched a group of heimishe(really frum) girls do it once, you would never be able to do it. It looks pathetic!!. They bought someone down to a camp once as an activity before it was popular and it was soooo sad looking at tzniusdige girls moving in such an unrefined/boorish/provacative manner.

    #931173

    skiaddict
    Member

    RSRH- Its not like he made it up you know. He gets it from gemoro or somewhere- like i said, i would go through it again to see where its brought down if you really want just it would take me forever to check the whole sefer.

    #931174

    Yatzmich
    Member

    WIY is right.

    Clever, it sounds like you are what the Torah is refering to when it says that if you treat the Tzoros as “Happenstance” then all the klolos and the toichecha will come on us. You seem to have a perfect natural cause for all the tzoros we are having.

    #931175

    WIY
    Member

    Boro Park Girl

    “unrefined/boorish/provacative manner.”

    Sadly many Jewish girls today no longer have that level sensitivity.

    Just like you have “frum” girls who do the dance revolution machine arcade in public (including holding up their skirts to make it easier). Some people just dont want Judaism interfering with their idea of life and a good time.

    #931176

    cinderella
    Member

    WIY and Yatzmich- What are you saying? that the reason for all the problems in todays Jewish society is because girls are slipping in their tznius? Because that’s not true.You say that if a girl has a boyfriend it’s because she dresses provocatively. So it’s not at all the guys problem?? Please!?!?? Why are you not holding the guys accountable??

    Maybe you are right in saying that Hashem is sending us a message. But I don’t think you are in a position to diagnose the problem. I feel like everyone blames the women for Klal Yisroels problems. What happened to “Bzchus nashim tzidkanios nigalu avoseinu,,,,v’asidin l’higael” We are the reason Moshiach will come. So please don’t label us women as the ‘problem’.

    #931177

    skiaddict
    Member

    So maybe thats why moshiach isnt coming- because there are not enough noshim tzidkonios…

    #931178

    Yatzmich
    Member

    cinderella,

    Chas V’sholom. I’m not saying that tznius is the cause of all our problems. I just didn’t like clever’s atitude toward our tzoros. He seems to have a “natural” explanation for all these things, and that’s wrong.

    WIY’s point is that, in a certain way, tznius protects girls from behaving a certain way. Once you break that barrier, the ride down is much easier. Much like a bochur in a hat & jacket, or even just yeshivisha dress would think twice about doing certain things or going in to certain places.

    The point is, Tznius is a serious problem, and Zumba is just a step in the wrong direction, almost like a bridge between a tzniusdike girl and untzniusdik behavior.

    #931179

    cinderella
    Member

    sorry Yatzmich, I misunderstood you.

    WIY can you please explain what you meant b4??

    #931180

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Its a lot easier for a man to blame all of todays problems on women who are not dressed appropriately. This way they dont have to do any self introspection. Do they come to davening on time? Do they refrain from talking during davening? Do they daven with kavanah or do they have one eye on the siddur and one on a sefer? Do they keep to their sedarim or do they take an inordinate number of breaks? Do they drive down the street in a manner that makes you wonder if you are walking alongside the Indianapolis speedway? Why think about those and other important things when it is simple to blame it all on someone else. Since day one, when Adam used Chava as an excuse, men have been blaming women.

    I was on 18th avenue today and the vast majority of Jewish women in the street were dressed appropriately, I suppose had I gone looking for the exception, I might have found it, but unlike some men, I dont go looking for it.

    #931181

    They just stopped it at the gym in lakewood because of tznius concerns.

    #931182

    sam4321
    Participant

    Skiaddict: I am not here to give an opinion rather to give you the source I think you wanted pg 382 oz vahder levusha.

    #931183

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    There is a difference between a “natural explanation” and showing why something is not a Tzara. Not that the things mentioned aren’t necessarily tzaros, just noting.

    #931184

    WIY
    Member

    Cinderella

    Please read this.

    Rav Elyashiv -As The Girls Go, So Goes The Generation

    After Moshe warned Paroh about Makas Arbeh, Paroh says (Bo 10:11), “Lichu Na HaGvarim V’Ivdu Es Hashem”, let the men folk go and serve Hashem, while the women and children remain behind. Rav Elyashiv says (Divrei Agada) that Paroh knew that if the women remain tied into the culture of Mitzrayim, the men can do all the avodah they want. As soon as they come back they will follow the women, and all will be lost.

    He brings a Medrash (Bereishis Rabba 17:7) that drives home the point. The Medrash speaks of a childless couple who were both very pious people. They decided that since they were not producing any servants of Hashem, it is best that they divorce and each marry someone else, hopefully producing children. The man married a wicked lady and he himself became a Rasha. The woman married a wicked man but he became a tzaddik.

    There was conference of Rabbonim after the Russian revolution, says Rav Elyashiv, where there was a proposal raised to create a curriculum for girls education. Many Rabbonim protested based on the words of Chazal who say not to teach your daughters torah. Rav Eliezer Rabinowitz from Minsk stood up and asked, how can you teach torah to someone who wants to convert if he is not yet Jewish? The obvious answer is that unless you teach him he cannot start becoming Jewish. Similarly with the girls. When there were vibrant Jewish homes they did not need to learn torah but times had changed and without torah they had no chance, and they would drag the boys down as well.

    It is clear from here that the girls lead the way. However, don’t forget them because the future of our wonderful sons hang in the balance. What exactly they should be learning is a subject of great debate, and obviously the goal is Yiras Shamayim and not lomdus. Because when they come back from shteiging in Yeshiva there needs to be a special girl waiting for them or else… The girls are the hope and future of Klal Yisroel.

    From Revach.net

    This is the reason why girls have to be so careful with Tznius in dress speech and action.

    #931185

    cinderella
    Member

    WIY- I understand the enormous responsibility that women have. But you can’t possibly think that the responsibility lies solely with us. What apushatayid said is right. Since the beginning of time, men have shifted the blame to us, women. Yes, women have great influence over men, but to say that we are the direct and only cause is simply untrue. Why are men unable to accept responsibility? I’m not trying to minimize the responsibility of a woman. I’m just trying to understand why men can never take any.

    Thats what I understood from your first post. I’m still trying to understand how your second post answers my question.

    #931186

    a mamin
    Participant

    Wiy: I give you a standing ovation!!!!

    #931187

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I dont know who “they” are, who stopped “it” due to tznius concerns, if you can pass a message to them, please ask them to keep an eye on the bachurim dancing at the next chasuna they attend. Please ask “them” to keep a close eye, especially during the second dance. They might consider banning the second dance with some of the gyrations performed.

    #931188

    dandelion
    Member

    Imaofthree – the moves

    Women are a BIG deal. Tznius is a BIG deal. I think that’s all WIY’s been trying to say.

    If we women could only manage to take that to heart and embrace the huge achrayus and responsibility we hold with being endowed with the mitzvah of tznius rather than jumping on people who try to point it out to us, I do believe this world would be a better place.

    #931189

    old man
    Participant

    Many here have suggested that Klal Yisrael’s problems stem from the way women dress on 18th Avenue or similar places. My suggestion is that the problems of Klal Yisrael stem from the very fact that men and women are walking on 18th Avenue instead of Rechov Yaffo or Katzenellenbogen or Tzefaniah, or any other place in Israel.

    In any case, if a woman enjoys zumba, whatever dance that is, she should do it to her heart’s content. She need not worry about the naysayers, nor should she worry that she is causing harm to Klal Yisrael. She is not causing any harm.

    #931190

    Toi
    Participant

    i dont understand this. every person so far who has posted in favor of this zumba thingy (i have no clue what it is) has repeatedly said “ya, i understand that its not tznius and its probably not so good or refined BUT WHATEVER, I LIKE IT SO ILL KEEP DOING IT” people get a grip; we’re not talking about a favor flavor of ice cream. for the same price i can replace the word zumba with pig meat. dont you see how krum this is??!

    #931192

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I remember learning in Rabbi Falks sefer that immodesty is the cause of tragedy in the world(if someone wants i can try go through the whole sefer again to find where he quotes it)

    And the gemorah says it is because of Am HaRatzus, like the statement above (see BB 8a). I doubt any Rav would have said something so ridiculous. And Rav Falk certainly does not say anything like this on page 382 of his book.

    WIY: That is why women should be taught (Gemorah &) Halacha (not the fake stuff they teach in sems today). It has nothing to do with Tznius.

    #931193

    Shrek
    Member

    I suggest that women only do exercises that have a clear mesorah in Yiddishkeit. Sarah Imaeinu for sure did not play tennis or basketball, take zumba or spin classes, go swimming, do aerobics or jumping jacks or other goyish who-knows-what.

    She lived to 127 years old just by doing what a proper Jewish woman needs to do. She cooked and cleaned and was a helpmate to her husband. What Jewish woman needs more than that?

    #931194

    mytake
    Member

    GAW

    “It has nothing to do with Tznius”

    Are you saying that there’s no likely connection between tragedy in the world and the decline in Tznius?

    #931195

    soliek
    Member

    “I suggest that women only do exercises that have a clear mesorah in Yiddishkeit.”

    O_O

    what…just…what?!

    btw im really not seeing a problem. if its a womens only class…who cares what they do?

    #931196

    apushatayid
    Participant

    It is easier to try and change the world than to try and change yourself.

    #931197

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    GAW

    “It has nothing to do with Tznius”

    Are you saying that there’s no likely connection between tragedy in the world and the decline in Tznius?

    Yes. The gemorah says tragedy comes to the world only due to Am Haratzus. Are you arguing with the Gemorah?

    #931198

    agent
    Participant

    Soliek it has nothing to do with it being an all womens class. The problem is the actual moves. People will be soon get used to doing these moves that are not fit for a Bas Yisroel. It’s like you hear somone speaking a very vulgar language the first time your are horrified, by the 4th time that you will hear it, it won’t be so bad. Same thing over here-something that is not so Tzniyus in the beginning will soon be ok in the end but it is really Not ok!!

    BTW the same thing goes for the Break dancing that men do at weddings as well-it might be cool and fun to do but if you know where that is coming from-We just got used to it so now it is ok. It is Not ok either!!

    #931199

    dandelion
    Member

    soliek –

    That’s the thing with tznius – although it is in place partly because of men, there is a whole “self” aspect in its own right. Women don’t have to be tznius just so they don’t provoke men, they have to be tznius because that’s what the essence of a woman is and it’s through tznius that a Jewish woman can become the bas melech she is. It shouldn’t matter whether or not men are around; if zumba makes you move your body in ways that aren’t tznius you should think twice about doing it. It’s that simple.

    Shrek –

    walking/running is not untznius

    a number of other exercise machines are also not untznius

    There are other types of dance that are also not untznius but can still break a sweat

    I’d like to add that it’s very possible that not all zumba dances are untznius. It probably depends on the instructor. But I think as a general rule, *especially* if it’s a non-Jewish class, there will be some less-than-tznius moves there.

    It’s all sensitivities in the end, for each woman on her own level, but it bothers me when people want to deny that those sensitivities should even exist whatsoever. For some people, zumba may be a step up on their tznius ladder, but that doesn’t mean that it in essence must be perfect and ideal.

    #931200

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    GAW:

    I’m a bit surprised at your statement. I’m not proficient in Gemorah. I do know of a famous calling of the Chofetz Chaim Ztz”l, and what he said about this issue. Is HE arguing with the Gemorah??? I’d rather listen to him, than to an anonymous blogger telling me it’s fine to do as I please!

    #931201

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    ZK:

    No one ever said that you can do what you want. We still have a Torah & the Ribbono Shel Olam. A specific point was mentioned regarding tragedies, and this is what the Gemorah has to say (BB 8a).

    ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????

    Would you mind please informing me of the “calling” that is relevant here? The CC did not say all the world’s problems are caused by Lashon Hara, did he?

    #931202

    mytake
    Member

    Of course I’m not arguing with the Gemara. Especially since I’m a woman and I’ve never learned a stitch of Gemara in my life. But all you sem graduates must be able to help me out here…

    We’ve all seen the sources that say that a lack of Tznius causes much Tzaros. Or causes Hashem to withdraw His protection from our homes/lives. I just can’t remember them. Anyone?

    (Actually I did think of a possible explanation for the Gemara you mentioned. But like I said, I don’t do Gemara talk. Sem grads: Help?)

    #931203

    Sam2
    Participant

    Aside from the Halachic requirements, these such a concept of a proper state of mind. People lump that under the word “Tznius”, which causes mixed reactions. But no one can deny that having a proper state of mind is a requirement in Judaism. So as long as the Halachic requirements are met (an all-girls class), then the issue with Zumba (or any other activity) depends on the state of mind of every person. If your state of mind is “this isn’t proper but I’ll do it anyway because I enjoy it”, then it’s bad. If you’re honestly just enjoying the class and the exercise and only think that there may be an issue when other people mention it, then there’s no reason not to take the class. It’s not something which is inherently Assur. It’s something that every person has to realize for themselves if it’s Tznius or not. And that answer should be different for different people.

    #931204

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    GAW

    I’m refering to the famous ‘Kol Koreh’ of the Chofetz Chaim ??”?, decrying the lack of tznius IN HIS GENERATION. It’s publicized. He refers to the pasuk ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??????. He writes openly, that IT is cause for misfortune. No blogger in his day argued with him. I highly doubt you know more than him.

    #931205

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    We’ve all seen the sources that say that a lack of Tznius causes much Tzaros. Or causes Hashem to withdraw His protection from our homes/lives. I just can’t remember them. Anyone?

    There is a simple solution. Not being Tzanua means flaunting yourself, which brings Ayin Hara, Chas V’Shalom. This is what Rav Falk says in his book.

    Not that lack of Tznius causes all of the world’s problems.

    #931207

    mytake
    Member

    GAW

    According to zeeskite’s last post, a lack of Tznius may very well be a major cause of our troubles.

    #931208

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    mytake

    It’s not mine, chalila. It’s from the holy Chafetz Chaim ??”?. Written in ‘Kidush Levana Osyos’.

    #931209

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I’m refering to the famous ‘Kol Koreh’ of the Chofetz Chaim ??”?, decrying the lack of tznius IN HIS GENERATION.

    Did you read the Kol Korei yourself? I did. The CC says similar to what I did, that Hashem’s special protection is removed from theose who flaunt themselves. It is NOT the reason why tragedies occur.

    ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????, ????? ???? ?????? ???

    ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??, ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????????

    ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ???.

    Once again, I’m only making a very specific point. I’m not saying that one does not have to be Tzanuah. But Tznius is not the end all.

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