CS

Arso,

“ In reply to my objecting to the LR saying that it doesn’t make sense that Mashiach hasn’t come yet, CS wrote: I believe I answered this already. Shlomo hamelech couldn’t understand para adumah…

Please please please stop being medameh milsa lemilsa. I’ll be melamed zechus and say that as you do not have a background in Gemoro, you haven’t learned to be discerning in your comparisons.”

Thanks for the generosity. I meant that it’s the same. The Rebbe never meant it doesn’t make sense period. But that it makes no sense to us, and possibly even according to the logic of Torah. Hence my comparison to the para adumah. Of course ultimately it does make sense, and we’ll see it by Geula. But it wasn’t making sense at the moment.

“within lubavitch there’s always who to look up to and where to grow ad ain sof

As there is in any community. But in other communities women who are machshil others are asked to fix themselves or leave. In Lubavich they become shluchim.

disclaimer: they are asked to fix themselves, not always to leave. But most definitely not to teach.”

In every community there are role models. The Mishne says we can learn from everyone. I meant that in lubavitch there is a systematic path of avoda one can take from the lowest point to an endless height with role models along the way. That’s what Chabad is about. I haven’t seen this elsewhere, maybe I’m limited to my demographic. And I haven’t lived within every type of community. I’ve just had my personal interactions with those who I’ve encountered.

Avira,

“
CS – that’s what chasidus, or mussar, or drush,is supposed to do. And it does. But ifa person finds any other part of Torah “dry” afterwards, it’s showing a deficiency in the method which is being used to convey those parts of Torah, and in the unpreparedness of the recipient.”

I specifically mentioned other types of hashkofa style motivation. I guess only one who tastes it will get what I mean?

Ca,

“ And therefore pasht nisht for a shlucha to be untzniusdik.”

Agreed! And the vast majority are tzniusdik.

“and should be ostracized”

We don’t ostracize, we try to bring close with love and by serving as a personal example. If she wasn’t perfect with lashon hara, or used a peeler on shabbos, you’d say the same?

“and non shluchos should be taught properly”

Agreed! I had a tznius class in high school, I’ve written one for another school, and advocate for every Lubavitcher school to educate about tznius.

“ (as opposed to how people in this thread has been saying crown heights is)”

There’s many tznuos in Crown heights. I won’t make up percentages (there’s1000s of families there) but there’s both types. And when you take into account what Chabad encompasses and embraces (both those on their way in, those fully into it, those on a downward trend)- it makes sense.

Yb,
“ 1] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE HOLD ATSAROT FOR KABALAT PNEI MASHIACH ?”

Possibly not- the avoda throughout golus was focused on Avodas habirurim. Now this is our focus, as we’ve finished Avodas habirurim- hence the difference.

“2] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE USE THE MEANS OF MASS ADVERTISING AVAILAIBLE TO THEM IN THEIR CONTEXT TO PROMOTE AN INDIVIDUAL AS MASHIACH ?”

Possibly. Rabbi Akiva promoted bar kochba. Shabtai tzvi was endorsed by many Rabbanim. How exactly they did so I don’t know since we don’t have media from then.

“3] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE IN AN ORGANIZED FASHION LOOK FOR CANDIDATES FOR MASHIACH AND SUBSEQUENTLY DECIDE ON THE WINNER ,BASED ON POPULAR ACCLAIM ?”

No idea. Was Yinon shmo by his students, a way of promoting? And the other yeshivos as well? Or they all happened to promote the name of their Rebbi by coincidence? I don’t think it’s about a popularity contest btw. Rather, Moshiach belongs to all yidden so once his identity is revealed, we want to share how to bring about the full Geula by following his world view, with our fellow Jews. Many times the Moshiach campaign just means to educate people on what the era is about, and how to prepare, without focusing on a candidate.

“4] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE PUBLICLY STATE DURING MANY DECADES THAT THEY ARE NOT TRYING TO CROWN THEIR OWN LEADER AS MASHIACH – ONLY TO WHEN CONVENIENT CHANGE COURSE AND PUBLICLY DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE ?”

There are still those who are living in the first half of the question… those who said it meant it at the time, and some still do.

“4] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE PUBLICLY STATE DURING MANY YEARS THAT THAT THEIR LEADER CAN NOT DIE AND THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE IKAREI EMUNA AND IMPOSSIBLE TO CHANGE AT ANY TIME IN THE FUTURE – ONLY TO WHEN CONVENIENT CHANGE COURSE AND PUBLICLY PROCLAIM THE EXACT OPPOSITE ?”

Haven’t seen this anywhere- especially the way you worded it

Avira,

“ If someone finds any part of hashkofa “dry,” it’s not because of actual chasidishe Torah. It’s because they’ve had sensory overload, like children who find books boring if they watch movies. So if they hear fanciful ideas which don’t really make them feel a need to, say, cover up, and then they learn basic hashkofa about prishus min haarayos, they might find it “dry.”

That’s just another reason not to learn kabalah until you’re ready for it. Even chasidim who say that regular jews can learn it through chasidus are referring to average Jews, like those of us here, who have a basic education. Not someone who has no idea how to read.”

You clearly have no idea what I’m talking about. The fire of Chassidus, The more one imbibes it, uplifts the observance of Halacha as well. If you go a good Chassidishe farbrengen you’ll see what I mean. Or if you open up a sefer of Chabad Chassidus. Every Halacha is not only what to do, but a lesson on how to live life. And every Halacha- understanding that it is Hashem’s Wisdom- gives a motivation to keep learning and keeping to the highest extent.

“ ??? Of course it is! Being machshil someone else is an issur d’Oiraisa!”

Of course. Michshol applies in other settings too. Have you only heard of that Mitzvah in relation to women’s Tznius?

“ The passuk itself is talking about the Sanhedrin! Look it up in parshas Shoftim.”

Thanks! My point was that Rashi isn’t necessarily sticking his point to just the Sanhedrin.

“ You THINK it’s ok? Is that mean to justify what you did, albeit unwittingly?”

Maybe:) I know it’sa Mitzvah for Goyim to believe in Hashem, and I’ve heard of a very respected person teaching Tanya to depressed celebrities (he asked them to start tznius clothing trends as a result.) now, if I had known for sure, I would’ve asked to be sure of the details.

“ You know you’re scraping the bottom of the barrel when you bring an anecdotal proof from a shikse!”

Aderabe- even she saw it.

“ Now that is certainly a winning reply to a challenge for you to back up some garbage you wrote!”

I know it’sa bit of a cop out- I’ve actually asked someone… I’ll let you know if I get a source

Ujm,

“ CS: How is dishonesty in business חוטא ומחטיא? Regarding L”H, he might be מחטיא the person he’s telling the L”H to (if the person doesn’t stuff his ears), but a woman walking down Eastern Parkway the same way she goes for a swim, is being מחטיא hundreds and hundreds of people every single day, day after day. It is far worse, even simply in terms of quantity, and she will be punished for every one of those thousands upon thousands of people she caused to sin day after day for years and years.”

Dishonesty in business: ribis, cheating etc usually include lavin of not placing an obstacle… and could be others. I’m not really involved in business, but if you are- you can look into it:)

The second part of your post, applies to any Aveira (hopefully not years and years) and when one is machshil others, and does not inspire/ force change on any women I know (also not Chabad), long term.

Avira,

“ CS, why does something need to be in older seforim for it to be valid? Chasidus isn’t in any sefer before 200 years ago. The peleh yoetz was before that.”

This part of discussion was about whether you cut someone out of a community because of tznius dress issues. As part of points mentioned, I said (even though it’sa Mitzvah) there is no section in Gemara all the way through kitzur shulchan aruch etc. devoted to women’s dress in its own right.

“Halichos bas yisroel is full of sources. Rabbi falk’s isnt – he was writing mainly as an instruction guide, and most women aren’t interested in looking things up.”

I hear, so is kvuda bas Melech. This doesn’t contradict the point above.

“The kitzur was written only 130ish years ago. And it was definitely not written for women.”

Really? So why does every girls high school and younger learn kitzur? Isn’t it The go to guide on relevant mitzvos for everyone?

Plus, all jewish women were tznius in those days. You didn’t need halacha shailohs and minimum requirements, because everyone was covered up and no one would dare do otherwise. There was absolutely no “fashion” industry and women didn’t wear clothes that were, to use an expression which somehow became popular among frum women, “flattering.””

While I agree that women covered up more in general throughout history, I’ve done research in history (unrelated project) in the 1600s in Italy- The Rabbonim were decrying the women’s fashion. That wasn’t the only place either- there were politics when the fashion in Yerushalayim years back was to stop wearing shawls…

“Take a look at pictures of European and sefardi jewish towns. More tznius than satmar! It was the הלוך ילך, the רוח אפינו – some things are so plainly obvious, so fundamental, that any simple jew knows them. Even the amei haaretz in chazal aren’t criticized for dressing untzius.”

Actually, there was a lot less covered in pre war Europe. It’s in the pictures. Also, I’ve heard there’s absolutely no source for covering the collarbone- Gemara mentions the heart…. I’ve heard this several times, I’d love if you have one (besides Minhag Hamakom.)

“You’re defending the indefensible.”

I’m not sure what you think I’m defending. I’m just saying if someone isn’t fully tznius you don’t need to write them off, you can learn from the good things they do, and respect them by ignoring their flaws, just like any other Mitzvah.

“And to the point of being machshil others, LH only is machshil others if they believe it, and it’s not something the person walks around doing nonstop.”

Really? I had thought you cannot listen to lashon hara? And how are you supposed to know if you believe it before you hear it?

“A woman who walks around untzius will be machshil men every second of her life and amass boatloads of sins that will not he attoned for by asking your rebbe for forgiveness or learning his musings.”

No one mentioned such a thing. Men have their obligations too, that they’re responsible for when they fail and if make others fail as well

Ujm,

Regarding machati es harabbim see my earlier post to coffee addict.

“ The Rambam writes that if a Beis Din needs to execute 100 people per day, they can and should do so.”

Practically though, Sanhedrin shut down rather than try many Sotos and murderers. Tzoraas doesn’t happen today for the same reason.

When you look at Klal Yisrael, and how so many aren’t Torah observant, it seems from historical precedent, that Hashem would prefer we bring them close (lower the standard on who we regard acceptable to interact with, and with a Chassidus mindset- see them as a fellow Neshama waiting to be awakened), rather than close off more and more from others, so we have a better chance of our family staying perfect (no guarantees either way), and who cares about the vast majority of Klal Yisrael, including those in our communities who may have different struggles than us?

You remember why Hoshea Ben elah had the disgrace of the golus of aseres hashvatim happen in his time? For the same logic…

Arso,

“ (I don’t know whether that ‘teaching’ is factual, but I’ll run with it anyway.) The two are not comparable. A Malach has no bechira, so he is therefore perfect despite being willing to ‘give up everything…’. The Chazon Ish was human with a bechirah, and therefore saying that he is jealous in Gan Eden is indeed denigrating.”

You’re saying because even he, was lacking something?
Ok- I see that- the context was discussing the maalos of learning Chassidus- I wouldn’t use that source as proof of the Rebbes care of not Chabad (because the point was pointing out something lacking), but there are many other places to see it.

“CS: Now, if the Rebbe treated others outside lubavitch, disdainfully in general…”

“True he didn’t treat others outside Lubavich disdainfully, but he did treat other shitos disdainfully. I can’t be bothered now bringing proofs, but they are numerous.”

Yes I’d assume there are other shitos within Yiddishkeit that you wouldn’t agree with, and as opposed to people, it’s important to point out flaws with other shitos that won’t end up leading yidden in the desired direction.

I can’t believe I’m still on the same page I started with (13:(). I hope you enjoy my posts until next time:)

But you know what Arso, I think I want to change. See, you come saying lubavitch is horrible because of this and this. The answer would naturally be- actually this isn’t all correct and/ or others have their own issues.

That’s basically the pattern. Then we need to prove ourselves.

But I’m now inclined to regret that as I’ve learned a new path forward from the Rebbe about how the way to humility is not only recognizing your own faults/ how others could have done better with your gifts etc. But a completely higher path is looking for the good in others. (Likutei Sichos Vayikra 17:1)

Now I know I have to grow in humility, and Hashem can’t dwell with gaava etc etc.- so I’m working on implementing this. I’ll have to see if I can still navigate the conversation here.

I’m going to try:)

Avira,

“Also, “classic” seforim that discuss the mussar elements of tznius as the mainstay of a woman include menoras hamaor, pele yoetz, and many others. Ths Gaon famously wrote that tznius is for women what Torah is for men.”

While I’ve learned your point, and again 💯 agree that tznius is important, I meant classic as in before the Taz and Shach. (Pretty sure what you mentioned was more contemporary, correct me if not.)

Yb
“the leader of the habad hasidim gave explicit instructions to his followers. whenever you engage in debate with people of a different persuasion , you must do so with the condition that you [the follower] in your own mind give NO CREDENCE WHATSOEVER EVEN TO THE POSSIBILITY that he might have something to tell you that you previously did not know.

That is their starting point.”

I never heard this. To me, if anyone is questioning the Rebbe or his teachings, I’ll look to see if that person or group has greater depth of connection to Hashem for me in their teachings. Or if the person is a greater leader etc. I haven’t found that to be true. Not just me, but a soon to be giyores iyH who I had taught Chassidus on the basis of thinking she was Jewish, (I think I’ve heard Chassidus is ok to teach goyim too- they’re also obligated to believe in Hashem), told me that Chassidus had infected her so to speak- that when she is told about a mandatory class she needs to take for giyur and how it’s so amazing and deep, she’s found everything dry and basic (I’m talking hashkofa etc) after learning Chassidus. We both agreed that Breslov Chassidus does seem to impart the same fire, but personally, I see how Chassidus Chabad enhances that too, and helps a person experience closeness with Hashem without needing to escape oneself and one’s circumstances to do so.

Avira,

“CS – no hilchos tznius in the “classic seforim”? See the sources brought in mishnah berurah 75 s”k2, and all of the sources brought in halichos bas yisroel. It’s literally all over the place.

It’s dealt with mainly regarding ervah l’inyan krias shma and talmud Torah. That’s where the poskim discuss which parts of the body must be covered and give the details you were taught. Elbows, knees, collarbone, etc..

That’s why thw sefer halichos bas yisroel was very important, because he compiled the poskim who discussed the details of tznius, but they were everywhere and needed little chidushim.”

That’s my point. Tznius is not its own Mitzvah doyraisa, as lashon hara is, and there is no classic source of hilchos tznius- even in kitzur shulchan aruch- where a man and woman can open up and read about what’s das Moshe, Das yehudis, and Minhag Hamakom etc with regards to tznius. Of course it’s part of Yiddishkeit and there are scattered references (mainly in regards to what defines erva for a man, not directly addressing women’s dress).

“Regarding lashon hora, i am referring to details. What is the definition? What are the tenoim for toeles? When can one believe LH and when can you only be concerned about it? These aee things not discussed at all in the rishonim, st least not directly. The chofetz chaim labored greatly to learn this sugya and come to conclusions in halacha.”

Yes- all the credit to him. I did find a section on forbidden speech in Rambam, and there’s probably sections dedicated in Gemara to forbidden speech. That was my point here.

“In tznius, there was no such need for the author of halichos bas yisroel to do that. Read the sefer, even though it was not written by a Lubavitcher..it won’t hurt your worldviiew.”

I’ve heard of Halichos Bas Yisrael. Lubavitch has Kvuda Bas Melech by Rabbi Moshe Weiner, as well as other hashkofa books- such as The Rebbe on Modesty.

I also own oz vhadar lvusha by Rabbi Falk z”l. Funny thing is, I wanted to look up sources. He doesn’t give sources and says he’ll list them separately. I don’t know if there is a book of sources. But just to my point- it wasn’t easy for him either to find sources- they’re not mainly in one place

Coffee addict,

“The lady is a חוטא ומחטיא the guy looking at things on his devices is just a חוטא”

This was addressed to Arso, but to your distinction, lashon hara is the same. And dishonesty in business. So why pick one Mitzvah one another?

Yb,

“So you disagree with sechel that tahlit hasin’a , is talking about david hamelech only, and not to us ?”

I’m not sure what sechel said. My point was that the Alter Rebbe was referring to a small small sect of people, and even those don’t exist today, because the ones off, aren’t doing it because of their knowledge of Hashem and Yiddishkeit, but rather from their lack of it

Arso,

Me: “The Rebbe said that Avodas haBirurim is finished because he knew what he was talking about. He said at the same time that it should not make sense, that it must be that what Hashem wants of us now is to switch to the avoda of Welcoming Moshiach.”

Arso: “I think I get it. The LR changed the playing field because it didn’t fit in with what he – and he alone – knew. If anyone else did something like that he would be called an apikorus, but not the LR because, according to the LR himself, he knew what he was talking about. And therefore what the RBSO has done simply makes no sense. So it’s LR -1, RBSO – 0.

Do you even realize what you are saying and what you expect us to believe?”

This is where you yourself show me you have no idea of what a real Rebbe is- not something I grew up with. The Rebbe spoke with ruach hakodesh on a constant basis, and the many people impacted on a personal level can and do testify to this- and not only Lubavitchers.

Our Rebbe is an extension of Moshe Rabbeinu today (and there could be others). That should give you some idea of what a Rebbe is.

When one of the plagues broke out, Moshe sent Aharon to stop it, and the Malach hamoves said he has a shlichus from Hashem so why would he listen to Moshe? Aharon answered that everything Moshe does is from Hashem.

Not everything was revealed to the Rebbeim, but whatever they knew, they knew.

Avira,

“Sechel, if a jew violates a prohibition of tznius, it’s not apikorsus.

If a chabad shliach does so in public and teaches that tznius isn’t very important, then it most certainly is apikorsus.”

I know not addressed to me but wanted to answer: yes this is the distinction. This is exactly why the Rebbe distanced carlebach and his friend because they were compromising Halacha as shluchim, even though the Rebbe saw and encouraged many people who kept way less. No shluchim teach that it’s ok not to be tznius or anything else. There may be a very few who struggle themselves with it. If a shliach would teach such a thing about any Mitzvah, they would and have been removed

Arso,

“I have always marveled at the way Lubavichers say, as sechel has, that all Jews are equal, and that there is no difference between a mechalel Shabbos and someone who keeps Shabbos, and the like.

And despite that, on Shabbos in Chabad houses they either use mevushal wine, or they cover the bottle in case someone who doesn’t keep Shabbos looks at it. Still, no difference between someone who keeps Shabbos or someone who doesn’t, is there?”

We’re all equally Hashems children, with a chelek Eloka s as a Neshama. And we are all equally responsible to keep the mitzvos to the best of our ability, so while we warmly welcome a reform rabbi to our Chabad houses, we won’t attend theirs. We warmly invite all people to join shul but we won’t take down mechitzas.

In Chabad we learn to see the person for the Neshama they are, and not to lower our standards (which the first helps with, because they don’t truly want you to do anything wrong- it’s just shtusim from the yetzer hara or Nefesh habehamis.)

Arso
“If that’s true that’s absolutely terrible! No background check on standards, so a shliach can be a total am haaretz, or a menuval, and he is officially recognized by the Lubavich powers-that-be as a shaliach.”

The way the shlichus system is set up is that shliach oseh shliach. The first shliach to a country is a head shliach, who Is authorized to bring down further shluchim who can also etc.

The Rebbe never conditioned shlichus as only being for perfect people, but rather taught, as other Rebbeim did, if you know aleph teach aleph.

A flaw which may seem significant in the general community is not that important when there are unfortunately millions of yidden who dont know basics.

So there’s no extensive benchmarks one needs to pass, but they will have an interview with the head shliach who is considering them. Obviously if something is really off, the head shliach will see it. And can always take that person off the list if a mistake is made.

Generally the shlichus lifestyle demands growth, or the community will not financially support the shluchim. Generally shluchim are truly admirable in every way.

There can be some exceptions as there is to any rule.

An interesting question would be if we can be more picky lchatchila today because the globe is covered and so maybe we can be more selective?

An interesting point but A) many people would miss out on growth oriented lifestyle and the zechus harabbim, so is that worth it?

B) ckids, Jewq, cteen, cyp are all relatively new and we still are far from covered

“For apikorsim he says – tahlit sin’a sene’tim. Sin’ah without qualification.

How that fits with contemporary habad theology and habad practise is a myStern.”

Yb, the answer is that there is no true apikorsim today (Frierdiker Rebbe).

Acher was a true apikoros because he knew Hashems greatness and became an apikoros anyway.

Todays “apikorsim” are wannabes and lacking any true knowledge of Hashem and Yiddishkeit

Arso,

“I find it interesting that you were never upset about the lashon hara when CS wrote a number of times how others look at their Rebbes, how others tznius is only for show and the like. ”

On my end, I’ve been careful not to label specific groups or individuals, and made the examples generic. Please quote the lashon hara laws violated. I could be wrong, but I didn’t think this qualified. Trying to keep to productive points as well. Obviously I could be wrong, so please do quote the relevant Halachos. Thanks!

@mod

“let’s just say my deletions tell a different story“

Look, the other day on this thread when discussing this, I was thinking of an experience I had being hosted by a crude guy (not lubavitch.)

Then I said, well I was also hosted by a crude Chabad guy once…

Yetzer hara doesn’t differentiate. Intentional chinuch is one thing. People’s personal hurts/ stories or derogatory references to others is pretty much all the result of yetzer hara, and middos work to do- not the outcome of a specific chinuch.

Within Chabad, there is no chinuch to hate on other yidden of any type. Although people can get defensive and put others down- myself included- that’s just because I have work to do on myself- not a chinuch directive. And I’d assume, unless shown otherwise, that it’s the same with other kreizen as well.

Arso

“Pray tell, what did his peers (I’m astounded that you consider any of the other talmidei Hamaggid his ‘peers’!)”

What would you call them? Chevraya (Kadisha) means peers.

“ believe? Could it possibly be that a person can do what they want, not daven, not learn, not do anything else you have to do, and still find salvation? Isn’t that a new testament piece of garbage?”

Not at all. But it meant that in effect, when the chossid davened with a brenn, it was his Rebbes davening, not his own- since his whole excitement was solely based on his experience by his Rebbe, and not his own internal work. Kind of like music playing and everyone enthusiastic, but when you shut it… Of course he was doing the mitzvos, no one suggested otherwise.

“I know that Lubavich has always claimed that this was a key difference, but I have never heard any non-Lubavich source mention this. (I should be used to that by now.)
Can you give me a non-Lubavich source that tells us exactly in what way the Baal Hatanya’s colleagues differed to him regarding this passuk?”

No, its pretty well known, but I haven’t yet managed to learn all the chassidus outside of Chabad so I’d have no idea where to look