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@Joseph as soon as I can while giving a thorough understanding. Unfortunately, I as am sure everyone here, cannot monitor the CR constantly to reply the minute a question is asked. I’m doing my best and definitely not procrastinating. After I address WTP questions, excellent questions if I may say so myself, I will gladly continue.
“@chabadshlucha, I agree with most of want you’re saying besides one thing. “Moshiach Shebador” isn’t a halachic concept, it’s not based on the Rambam, so it’s not the greatest point to bring in an argument.”
Correct me if I’m wondering but I don’t recall saying it is from Rambam, I said the other two are. It comes up allot in chassidus and I’ve read stories of the Baal Shem tov to that effect as well, so it is not a recent concept.
Also I’m not arguing. I think the Litvishe world has the right to understand what we are thinking and where we disagree so I’m educating, not arguing. I feel there is a real interest for the most part as you can judge for yourself by the feedback.
“Secondly, nowhere does it says that the משה שבדור is משיח שבדור.”
Please look up the phrase “Nassi Hador hu haMoshiach shebador.” Nassi Hador is another way of saying Moshe Rabbeinu of the generation, just shorter:). If you still can’t find it, I’ll Google it myself and tell you an exact source, although as a fellow Lubavitcher I’d be surprised if you haven’t come across it yet.
“Saying it will not help you prove you point. I don’t understand why you are seemingly trying to validate or legitimise beliefs that are based on emotion, not intellect through logic.”
Certainly everything we do as Yidden is it most certainly should be sourced in emuna which is an emotion. However, especially especially as Chabad chassidim, we endeavor to bring this emuna down into the rational would so our mind can agree with it as well. And this is very very important. If you believe you are a butterfly, people will think you are crazy because that is not their experience. Some extreme people may even label you an apikoris:) but if you can prove how you are, you won’t seem silly anymore.
I’m just giving over what I’ve taught and seen for myself. I think the world has the right to know it especially as there some people running around looking crazy because they don’t bother explaining how they got there. To the uninitiated eye btw, all Jews can look crazy too. So it’s not about how why look it’s about why. You’re welcome to disagree with me and explain how you draw a different conclusion. But I think it is high time that all lubavitchers as all Jews, should stick together, because people don’t differentiate, and if you label meshichistim crazy to the oilam you come in contact with, they’ll in turn ok at you as bring crazy for being a lubavitcher. So pirud doesn’t help anyone, achdus helps everyone. That’s what I believe and that’s why I’m here. And I know this is a Torah value, not just my belief.
If I were trying to defend or explain it, I would simply say, that Chassidim believe that their Rebbe was the most worthy of being Moshiach, were he to come in his time. Such belief is no novelty, it’s seen in the Gemara, and in past generations there were other Chassidim who believed this about their Rebbe, (such as Vizhnitz).
This is true. Another point to bring in eventually. But you do yo see we are a bit different, no one else goes to the lengths we do and are as passionate about it. So I though I’ll just give the inside scoop.
To conclude, never ever, not even once did the rebber ever declare or otherwise insinuate that he was Moshiach. ( Once, Rabbi L Groner, a secretary of the Rebbe handed the Rebbe a letter which had been received and was addressed to “Moshiach”, the Rebbe said “I’ll give it to him when he comes”.
I haven’t addressed that yet.
That said, if someone chooses to believe that the Rebbe or any Rebbe is Moshiach, that doesn’t make him a Kofer or anything. It may be foolish to believe so after his passing, but definitely isn’t assur in any way, shape or form.
See above as to why I think this attitude ruins things for everyone.
Although I see how you can draw that conclusion (because the Rebbe had just said that the Lubavitcher Rebbe of each generation was the Nossi Hador aka Moshe Rabbeinu of the generation, and the Nossi hador is the Moshiach shebador) I don’t think any of the chassidim too it that way. There were me 100 people in the room, people who had escaped the Holocaust and Soviet Russia, and it seemed so unrealistic (from what I’ve heard.) This was in 1950.
Like right, we’re supposed to bring Moshiach? Us broken survivors? Here in America? Like how exactly…
Exciting to see this great feedback! Keep it coming! Looking forward to addressing all questions before moving on.
@lilmod olilameid
I’m not telling lofty I’m saying very practical. Let’s say the marriage fails CVS. The man walks out, healthy strong, and now he’s single with no family to support. He’s not lifting, he enjoyed it while it lasted and now he’s free to move on.
Meanwhile the woman is most likely in the midst of a pregnancy/recovering from a birth, has young children dependent on her and can’t work full hours.Who needs the protection more when they get married?
I’m not talking emotionally, could be hard on anyone, I’m talking about why the chachamim mandated the husband to commit to the wife and not the other way around. Because if either is entering it just for fun, to see if it will last, a woman is much less likely to do that because there are more practical consequences for her…
To be a wife. A woman risks losing much more when she gets married, and a man had only to gain. She’s the one who gets pregnant, she’s the one who is more vulnerable, and she needs her husband’s support and protection. Therefore, under every chuppah the husband had to obligate himself towards her in the kesuba, while she doesn’t write one for him, because she’s already giving him everything by marrying him
So we’re up to number four and then I’m done for today will check back tomorrow and continue iyh:
The Mission Statement:
The Lubavitcher Rebbe, on the night he agreed to become Rebbe, (he had refused to be Rebbe an entire year since the Previous Rebbe was nistalek) which was yud shvat tof shin yud aleph, said over a fascinating Maamar. Now what’s a maamar? A sicha is a talk, usually on a topic of parsha, a Rambam, medrash or gemara. Interesting, inspiring, more on the lighter side (although you need a head to follow the shakla vtarya sichos).A maamar is “Shechina medaberes mitoch grono shel Moshe” literally a revelation from Above, and the Rebbe who says it over has to hold onto something physical to keep his neshama from escaping his body (Our Rebbe would hold a handkerchief.) They are deeper concepts than sichos usually centered around achdus Hashem. There is a special tune chassidim sing before a maamar is said, and the Rebbe says it in a different tone than a sicha.
Only a Rebbe can say a maamar.So the Rebbe said his first Maamar on the night he accepted the nesius and there he said many important things- he also revealed our generation’s mission.
He explained that we are the seventh generation since the Alter Rebbe, (counting generations by Rebbe), and as kol hashviin chavivin, even if we’re not worthy, and even if we don’t want to, we have a unique mission:
Just like the shechina was down in this world and then through the Chet etz hadaas it left this world and went up a heaven, and every subsequent big aveira, like kayin, the generation of enosh etc as enumerated in midrash, it went up another heaven until the shechina was removed all seven heavens from this Earth.
Then Avrahom avinu brought it down from the seventh heaven to the sixth, Yitzchak Avinu from the sixth to the fifth etc until the seventh, Moshe Rabbeinu was zoche to bring it back down to Earth by Matan Torah. Why him? Because he was seventh and sevens have a special zechus.
Unfortunately Chet haegel happened and it left shortly after etc.
And now, we are the seventh generation since the Alter Rebbe. Every generation has it’s Mission and the mission of our generation is to bring the shechina down! To bring Moshiach!
Yes I will get to that iyh
*neshama, not breakfast:)
Concept number three: Moshiach shebador, bchezkas Moshiach, Moshiach vadai
Moshiach shebador means that in every generation there is an individual, (actually this individual is also the Moshe Rabbeinu of the dor) who, if the generation is worthy, will be revealed as Moshiach. Ie he has the potential to become Moshiach if that generation merits it, an if they do, he will merit the neshama of Moshiach.
Bchezkas Moshiach: this is straight up Rambam, hilchos melachim prakim 11-12 if I’m not mistaken. The Rambam defines who can be a candidate to be Moshiach, ie bchezkas Moshiach, ie if he fulfills the four criteria the Rambam states, then he is considered “Moshiach elect”
If he fulfills a further four conditions then we can be certain he is Moshiach, hence the term Moshiach vadai.
This is important to understand because a litvak will hear a lubavitcher mention Moshiach and automatically assume he means Moshiach vadai, when he could have just as easily meant Moshiach shebador or bchezkas Moshiach.
The part that’s universal is that we all have a breakfast, which at it’s core, is one with Hashem
For the girls even more, you are the one who effects how much Parnassa is brought down from the spiritual to the physical for the whole family! On another note, once you get married you have a husband to support you and take care of you and buy you things you wouldn’t buy yourself
@gavriel613 I will aim to do both. I think most times this within is brought up, it is brought up as a baiting attack where the person isn’t really looking for an answer, that’s why I said I’ll only answer if I see there is some real interest, i.e. we open a new thread and people are willing to sit through the process.
I see the tzaddik has been digested, has the extension of Moshe Rabbeinu bit been understood? Haven’t heard any feedback on that yet, and as that is term 2, I will need that to be understood before I can move on
I do because all financial brachos are in the merit of the wife, so if you get married and are a mentch of a husband, you have allot more money available to you:):)
No, as far as I have learned it means a JEWISH who is illegitimate, for example a family of mamzerim who are not allowed to marry into bnei yisrael, and did, I’ve there mixed in, down the generations, they’re in
@midwesterner as for your first question of yitzro gadol heimenu” I haven’t yet seen that addressed inside. My thoughts would be that it is addressing people who have not yet reached the level of tzaddik. As even a beinoni is a very lofty level. According to the Tanya definitions, if someone does only one aveira, it even doesn’t prevent someone else (if they were able) they are still classified as arasha vtov lo. If they have no regret at all, CVS, they’d be a rasha vra lo. A beinoni is a person who struggles inside but is always in control of themselves, and with the hello of Hashem, always makes the right decision. All we can get to with our own efforts is to a Beinoni. And that is probably what that maamar chazal is referring to. The level of tzaddik is a gift from Hashem, as we cannot control our feelings, only our thought, speech and action, and as it is a gift, he doesn’t need to contend with his yetzer anymore, as Dovid hamelech said, vlibi cholol bikirbi.
@daas yochid @gaon I remember learning, Chet can mean chisaron, meaning for their level, more was expected of them, not that it was an actual aveira. As with Dovid hamelech, the gemara clearly testifies that he didn’t soon with Batsheva, but nevertheless, more was expected of him and he failed the test so to speak.
Glad there is input an feedback. When my two posts are completely clarified, I’ll be happy to move on.
As there have so far been no questions on the first term- tzaddik, I’ll move on to the next one- the Zohar says, “Ispashtusa dMoshe bchol Dara vdara,” there is an extension of Moshe Rabbeinu in every generation.
Chassidus explains this in many places to mean that every generation has a tzaddik (see above) who is the Moshe Rabbeinu for that generation. Just like the original Moshe Rabbeinu, all the needs, physical and spiritual, come through this tzaddik.
There is another intertwined concept that all the neshamos are like a body. The neshamos not affected at all on their journey down to the world are the head and brain of klal Yisrael- our tzaddikim and leaders. The lowest neshamos, or the ones most affected by their journey, become the least spiritually in tune Jews- they have a hard time connecting to their neshama and connecting to Hashem. They are compared to the feet. Following this ever neshama has it’s place in the “body” of knesses yisrael, and just like the brain directs the body our leaders for. Just as the brain is the same essence as the father’s brain- the head neshamos are the ones most similar to Hashem’s Chochma.
And it is through these neshamos that everyone else gets their spiritual life force.
This and more is explained in perek beis of Tanya, the tzaddik concept is in perek aleph.
So far nothing controversial, this is like chassidus 101 and well known to I would think all lubavitchers. Any questions?
Great glad you took me up on it:) so in order to properly address this we need to understand some background knowledge so that we’re speaking the same language when I use a term. Feel free to ask on anything I say.
1) when Lubavitchers say “tzaddik”that are usually referring to tzaddik as is defined by Tanya. Namely, an individual who either has an inactive or drugged yetzer Hara (tzaddik vra lo) or no yetzer Hara at all (tzaddik vtov lo).
But regardless, a tzaddik has no personal struggles with bad
Agreed. But I funny think they’re putting in an act, I think that it just adds to the hard character etc. work they’re already doing but making it easier to make the right choices as it constantly reminds them who they are and what they represent. Not that I know that much about Rebishe children honestly, but that’s what would seem to make sense to me
@daasyochid
As said I am happy to discuss all those kind of questions, but in a forum under it’s own topic and with people who are really interested to learn, and that can’t be accomplished in a one paragraph answer, where the readers are missing out on allot of the background concepts the writer is referring to
@aheimishemom
A slave?! Wow I find that sad. So much depends on connotation and attitude. Who would you think the below definition applies to?
Slaves of the rest of the Jews who spend their days washing bloody floors, chopping up their meat, and offering their animals?
Yeah Kohanim. But no, so not Kohanim. Get my drift?
“When Yaakov donned Eisav’s clothing, he did not become a rasha.”
True but chassidus teaches that it was the clothing of Esav that allowed Yaakov Ish Tam to act in a slightly deceptive manner. Clothes do not make a man but they definitely impact him.
Actors find themselves able to put on their act easier when they’re wearing their costumes
I have a neighbor who I could see this working for. Personally my husband and I wouldn’t take that approach because in a sensitive topic, you have to be very careful with how you say things or you are less likely to be effective and more likely to be lashed out at.
In this case, the attitude I feel coming across is I am perfect and you need to work on yourself and I’m willing to pay you for it. See how generous I am?
I think this is usually wrong and that’s why I’d find it offensive. As has been brought up before, usually people marry a spouse with a compatible level of yiddishkeit, so if he found her less than tzniusdik look attractive, then he is part of the problem and shouldn’t be playing tzaddik now.
What would be taken much better by me, would be something like, “Chanale, I know when we got married, this is how you dressed and I was fine with that. However, you’ve helped me grow so much that now, your way of dress bothers me. I know it would be hard for you to change so can we make a deal? I will stop watching movies/non Jewish entertainment, or some other comparable kabbala, and you will go shopping, and buy a new tzniusdik wardrobe?
Here I would feel motivated because a) we are in this together and if it gets hard for me, I know he is working hard as well.
B) he is not making himself look good at my expense.
C) I get the zechus of helping him improve as well.
Disclaimer 1: I dress tzniusdik and my husband doesn’t watch movies or sports
Disclaimer 2: HaRav Miller said you have to know who you are talking to so I am not in any way negating what he said, as this is included within that, I am simply giving another approach/example.
@nevillechaimberlin
1) I’m surprised to hear you think you cannot use a Chabad mikva unless in extreme situations maybe, do you know of any halachic basis for that? Because like I said and explained, this prototype avoids problems found with the other ones without putting any new ones.2) I appreciate your support as I don’t want to be misunderstood, and I think that if I was super arrogant etc. Then I wouldn’t comment on this forum. My family and my in laws family has many friends in Satmar, and I grew up for a time in Postville where there was a wonderful Geula-like mix of all types of frum Yidden together.
That being said, I’m somewhat of an intellectual and enjoy discussion, so no, I was not pushed over the edge- I merely just don’t want to be misunderstood- but very much enjoy the discussion.
Also totally don’t get the non Ahavas yisroel part- please let me know where you think I failed in that? Because you’re 100% right, Ahavas Yisrael is the basis of everything, as Rabbi Akiva said- ze klal gadol baTorah.
Joseph- you have valid questions and I would love to address them. I’m afraid my time is up for today, and anyway we have gone way off topic from the original OP.
So if you really would like a deep discussion on that with sources etc, maybe open a new one and I’ll check back tomorrow or whenever I can:)
I’m pretty sure a shliach will only settle in a place that has enough Jews to sustain his family. That’s policy. Now you don’t see them all in shul (at least in the beginning) because some of them don’t even know what shul is. Like both my parents never heard of Yom Kippur before they met a shliach.
Many shluchim start off with enough money to last a year, either savings, or now I think there may be grants available. After that they need to fundraise locally. So many shluchim don’t start off renting- they’ll give classes from their house and house the shul there as well. As time goes on and more people hopefully get involved and support their activities, they’ll expand, and keep on expanding with Hashem s help.
@Syag lachochma- I’m sorry if I struck a personal nerve. I should clarify that many of my own friends yell at me that there should not be any such thing as family consideration aka gezhe/ffb vs bt background in shidduchim, and many of the gezhe people believe so as well. Personally it makes sense to me but I should clarify that that’s my personal opinion.
For example the shluchim who mkareved my own father, and are well known and respected throughout the chareidi world, the husband is from a very gezhe family of chassidim from the chassidishe town of nevel, while the wife is herself a baalas tshuva who became one with her on when she was 12 years old.
I should mention I did take part in a WhatsApp group that studied the chofetz chaim, I’ve read oz vhadar levusha by R Falk, and when I learn Chumash I learn general mefarshim, and obviously with any part of nigle I study. I was just trying to explain why some chabad people seem clueless- like I heard of R’ Elyashiv for the first time in eleventh grade- anyhow not trying to repeat everything all over… Just saying it’s not intentional like we don’t learn that, it’s just we have so much Lubavitch in our lives. Maybe this is comparable to a Lakewood person not knowing all the chiddushim and positions of R Ovadiah Yosef?
*Tof kuf zayin
Honestly I love my parents and they to me them proud and I don’t think this is an insult. They themselves are baalei teshuva, but they would prefer their kids don’t marry baalei teshuva, but ffb. And it’s obviously not because anything is won’t with baalei teshuva, it’s just about compatibility. Baalei teshuva usually click with other baalei who can understand their past, identify with their struggles, chuckle appreciatively when they mention a TV show they’ve seen… All things that I would not be able to do. But it doesn’t mean gezhe people are greater than baalei teshuva, only Hashem knows, but in general, bmakom shebaalei teshuva omdim tzaddikim gemurim ainom yecholim laamod, because they turned their whole lives around for Hashem, usually against all odds, and have to second guess every decision they make… It’s definitely not easy and I’m very proud of my parents and hope they are just as proud of me
Yeah it’s very sad when the yetzer hara gets in the way. My teacher showed us a handwritten note of the Rebbe when I was in high school, that said (in yiddish) “The yetzer hara saw that Moshiach is almost here so he laid himself across the threshold of the doorway, and sought to create machlokes… And rachmona litzlan he succeeded.”
Although interesting you mention the small breakaway kinus because just this year, I saw a video going around on WhatsApp that looks like the main speaker was calling for an end to this foolishness and that chassidim should all learn the sichos (talks) of the Rebbe together, and work together to discuss the best way to implement it.
Wow I’m sorry to have offended you. I can only speak for myself and try to be in line with what the Rebbe would have said, and I’m not perfect and I’m glad you seem to have the expectation that all lubavitchers since be angels, but unfortunately, we are very human, and of course there will be some arrogant people or whatever other chesronios. But we also, as all of us here, have many more maalos:) All I’m trying to say is that people need to learn what speaks to their neshama and inspires then to serve Hashem. For me, that’s chassidus, and I can’t get enough of it because there are at least hundreds of volumes of chabad chassidus. When I learn chassidus, I feel how it changes my world view and avodas Hashem for the better. That’s why I don’t focus on any other mussar- etc. Because I have my hands full as I said. If learning sifrei mussar does that for you, then that’s great.
I do still feel that everyone should learn chassidus but that’s not because I think it’s the only thing with value. Chas vsholom! Any Torah refines a person. Just we learn the conversation between the Baal Shem tov and Moshiach, on Rosh Hashana kuf chof zayin I believe, since we’re every young, and based on Moshiachs answer to the Baal Shem tov s question of Aimosai kosi Mar? When will the Master come? Moshiach answered “Lichsheyofutzu maayenosecha chutza” when your wellsprings (of chassidus) will spread out.” So the Rebbeim have taught us that it is imperative for us to spread chassidus everywhere. But chas vsholom to suggest that anything else is not Torah.
As long as it’s kosher, it’s kosher, so of course we can be yotze. The reason we prefer using a Lubavitch mikva is because of the hiddurim involved which basically make it that a woman toivels within the bor itself. This is accomplished by it being built bor Al gabei bor, and the bottom one is cold, and 80 seah, so no chashash of the original 40 being whittled to less than the shiur. Also the water filled in on top is hot, while the bottom is cold, so that avoids mixing.
This avoids many problematic issues involved with other kosher mikvaos such as the one that’s next to the bor with a hole in between, kept apart with a plug- let’s say the mikva lady forgets to remove the plug CVS, then the woman didn’t toivel in a mikvah because it wasn’t connected to the bor… There are other issues with the other prototypes, and this model was developed to avoid all issues
Thank you for alerting me to the fact that you changed a word of me, and kindly explaining why. I specifically used that word because I am ready to discuss it, an I don’t think a lack of knowledge of passages of the Zohar and gemara that are famous within the Lubavitch world should lead to achashash apikorsus chas vsholom. All the same, I appreciate that maybe now is not the time to discuss everything, but maybe in the future you can call me out on any statement I make instead of deleting it? Otherwise how do we learn?
Sure. As mentioned, I think, gezhe refers to Chabad chassidim who are part of a family chain (geza) of chassidim going way back. Usually used in comparison with terms of ffb, bt, yichus.
All Chabad children go to the same schools, seminaries, yeshivos etc, and can go on shlichus, depending on how badly they want to go, without distinction. The only time it really comes up is with shidduchim, and that is fair.
There is an advantage to families being compatible, if I would’ve married into a gezhe family, I wouldn’t feel my parents are on equal footing with my supposed in laws and that can get awkward.
My parents are amazing incredible people who turned their whole lives around to because frum and that is their advantage because they passed over to me the conviction that yiddishkeit is the best thing out there and the goyishe world is so empty, it has nothing substantial to offer me.
Otoh, I can’t compare their aidelkeit to the aidelkeit of a gezhe family…
There is also a difference in upbringing: gezhe people mainly raise their kids to toe the line of their ancestors, whereas BTs focus on rebelling against or revolutionizing the secular world…
But many gezhe people are open to their kids dating bts kids, just the bt background is understandably not seen as a plus in family compatibility.
As far as other differences, no unique minhagim other than family minhagim like what they can eat on pesach.
Hope this clarifies
Honestly, Chabad encompasses all kinds of people on all kinds of levels, because of who the Rebbe was. The lack of familiarity of other leaders within klal yisrael, for the most part, is not because we like to segregate ourselves, it’s just that there is so much going on within Lubavitch that we have our heads full keeping up with that.
For example, I would probably never quote R’ Elyashiv, not because I don’t think he’s great, I’m sure he is, and I know he’s a major figure in the litvishe world, but I’m still trying to keep up with saying my daily Chitas (portions of Chumash Tehillim and Tanya) and learning a sicha and or maamar of the Rebbe several times a week, which doesn’t leave me time to look into other things.
I feel chassidus empowers my avodas Hashem and I can’t get enough of it. I should add I have two young kids to look after so it makes for enough to fill up my time:) or even more, my concentration.
edited to prevent chashash apikorsus
Hi, I decided syaglachochma is right and happy to take any questions. I’ve been following this forum for a bit, must say Joseph’s comments are mostly entertaining:) anyhow, happy to answer any questions. Both my parents are BTs and I’m married, on (chinuch) shlichus. Happy to join as love interacting with the greater chareidi world.