CS

YR:
“CS – please address two points:

1) How the Lubavicher Rebbe a=can still be Moshiach even though he is presently dead, when the Rambam says otherwise.”

See post 2 of my 3 posts.

“2) Even assuming the Halacha is not like the Rambam, why is the Rebbe the greatest of all possible dead candidates”

Not necessarily is he. The main reason why we emphasize the Rebbe is because he is the most recent, from our generation, not because he is the greatest.

“3) Why there is a chabad obsession to identify their dead Rebbe as Moshiach even though it contradicts all the evidence,.”

Because there has been a Plan in place for the world. This plan follows from Sheshes yemei beraishis through the seven generations of chassidus. As the Rebbe is the seventh, and the seventh generation is the one to bring the Shechina back to this world, (As Moshe did- the 7th from Avraham, as the Medrash says ko,s hviin chavivin- not that he was greater than Avraham, he just was zoche because he was 7), and the Rebbe is the Nossi hador of the generation, it doesn’t seem likely for any other possibility.

We don’t find it easy- we find it difficult, and we feel we are being tested majorly. But I do feel Moshiach is around the corner judging by world events and the progress on all levels (such as teshuva, kibbutz golios, aseres hashvatim, the downfall of yishmael,) so hopefully we will all see the answers very soon.

” no other Jewish group has this obsession,”

True. Because the other groups barely touch the topic of Moshiach and geula. If you are ignorant of something how can you obsess about it? I literally go through every day looking for more signs of Moshiach in the world. But I wouldn’t be half as obsessed if I didn’t learn so much about the era of Moshiach and Chassidus as well.

“and it makes a chillul Hashem and Chillul Lubiavich for all onlookers,”

It seems to make one when people are ignorant and associate anything connected to Moshiach with non Jewish religions. Just because something sounds similar to another religion it doesn’t mean it is or isn’t. Those other religions were created attempting to copycat yiddishkeit so obviously some stuff will sound similar. The question is what does Torah say about this? Not does it sound to similar to another religion.

“and there is nothing to be gained by it other than perhaps fulfilling a psychological need. It certainly doesn’t bring Moshiach closer”

Maybe you understand better now. And personally being able to visualize Moshiach and Geula in a very concrete way only spurs me on further in my Avodas Hashem to do things right.

YR post 2:
Now the Rebbe fulfilled the conditions for being bchezkas Moshiach which are to be
1) a king from Beis Dovid
2)Well versed in Torah and oisek bmitzvos like Dovid his ancestor
3) He coerces the Jewish people to go in Torah’s ways and strengthen (ie fix) its breaches
4) He fights the wars of Hashem
(If you have questions on that, I’ll be happy to answer. Just trying to avoid elaboration where I can.)

Now if someone is bchezkas Moshiach, he is considered so unless:
a) He is unsuccessful
B) He is killed.

Looking at the context here, two main things emerge as the qualifications needed to be Moshiach. One is the Moshiach’s personal qualities, and the other is his effect on the world, preparing it for the Geula.

Now if his efforts fall short and he fails to get the world to the geula (as the next stage of Moshiach vadai denotes), then his chazaka as Moshiach is broken. If the evil forces of the world, which he is meant to defeat, manage to defeat him instead, to the extent that they kill him, he is not worthy of being Moshiach.

Now what happens if the ‘Bchezkas Moshiach’ passes away? Well normally, that ends his efforts so as per A), his chazaka is broken.

But in this case, that isn’t the case, as the Rebbe’s efforts to reach every Jew and even non Jews, continue and have only grown stronger, until today, mainly through the shluchim.

Any shliach you ask will tell you that they are only able to do what they do by the koach of the Rebbe. But can this halachically be considered the Rebbe’s efforts?

Well we have the halacha that shlucho shel adam kmoso. Also, remember Shimshon, about whom it is said that he reigned for 40 years although he only lived as a shofet for 20. Why? Because his influence over the plishtim extended 20 years after his passing, and Torah therefore writes that HE ruled the yidden for all those 40 years. So as long as the Rebbe’s efforts continue, he can still be considered bchezkas Moshiach.

TBC

RSo:
“I find this VERY interesting! I don’t know whether Rabbi Heller is a lubavicher or not, but he chose something which is NOT one of the 7 mitzvos. Rather his intention seems to be to have more people dress in a tznius manner so that we Yidden will have it easier when coming in contact with them.

That I can see the point of. (Sorry for the lousy grammar.)”

It seems you missed the point. Or I wasn’t clear. In any case, part of teaching them how to find meaning in their lives of course included the sheva mitzvos bnei noach as that is a goy’s purpose in life and the only way he can connect to Hashem. He taught them that for their personal good. The favor he asked them for in return was something that would help us- the Jews, by creating tznius clothing styles. This was about six years ago, when all the skirts were short the fashion was tight etc, and women found it hard not to be influenced by the trends as there was practically nothing in the on Jewish shops and it is hard for women to feel nerdy. Now BH there is plenty of tznius styles available, which makes it easier for women who struggle with tznius and fashion to choose tznius because it is plentiful and affordable and you don’t look as much from a different century.

RSo:
“Interesting how no one has commented on the piece from Sefer Chassidim I posted.” The context isn’t clear. That’s why I haven’t commented

Rso:
“But if “even the buttons have been polished”, i.e. absolutely everything has been done, then “the Am” caring about it is included and has already been fulfilled. On the other hand, if it’s necessary that “every regular man woman and child care about” Mashiach coming, and that is not yet the case, then the buttons haven’t been polished.”

K here goes (feel free to ask for the sources of anything I say here, just not typing out each one):
The era of Moshiach is the whole purpose of Creation. What’s fascinating about it is that Hashem so to speak constantly reworks His Plan according to our choices (although He also knows the end result.) This is why there are so many options and variables connected to the era of MOshiach and how it will come about.

In general, chazal speak of the two options of Zochu or Lo zochu. Besides for the literal translation being meritorious, zochu also comes from the word zach- pure. I.e. there is always an option for us to preempt the Plan and bring it early- zachu- but that would entail working on a more spiritual and pure level- zach.

The longer golus takes, ie lo zachu, the more we get into the grittiness and chumrius of the world and deal with lo zachu stuff. But that ends up making the era of Moshiach more enjoyable, meaningful and rich, which is why Hashem prefers the latter.

This has played out in history: To refine the world, as mentioned above, we need to elevate the 288 “sparks” of holiness hidden in the world, by working with the world and using it to serve Hashem. This started with the Jewish Nation in MItzrayim where as discussed previously, they elevated 202, leaving us a mere 86.

Now another point: We were all originally one soul- Yaakov, and the more Jews born, the more our one soul splits into different bodies. Also, every generation the souls have generally less power so they take more people and more effort to accomplish what a previous generation could have. That’s why the Yidden in Mitzrayim were able to elevate an awful bunch, whereas the mere remaining 86 took thousands of years.

The next phase of the Plan (as the 400 year one didn’t work, because we sunk into 49 shaarei tumaah and had to get out early before we finished our task,) was that Yidden would live in Eretz Yisrael and not have to deal directly with the nations etc. Indeed we were commanded to expel/ kill those there so they wouldn’t be any sort of hindrance to us. By the lofty power of our avoda, we were to draw the remaining sparks in chutza laaretz to us in Eretz Yisrael, and thereby refine them without having to leave. We were to be like the bonfire that draws sparks inwards. The Goyim were meant to learn from us by hearing od our example in their lands, and coming to visit etc.

TBC

Rso great questions. I’m really looking forward to addressing them. There is a lot of information missing in my post on p 32, but I thought it would suffice to provide a simpler understanding of personal growth vs. polishing the buttons. However your question touches on a whole nother topic which I’ll be happy to address. I’ll be happy to address your other posts too before moving on to answer YRs post and getting into some good Rambam learning on the Rebbe specifically, as discussing the general understanding of moshiach and Geula definitely takes precedence.

Rso:
“CS: “People are searching for meaning and stronger connection to Hashem both not yet frum and frum alike nowadays. I even see this by the non Jews in levels never before seen in history.”

Rso: Could you please elaborate on how you see this by non-Jews in unprecedented levels?”

Yeah. As far as I know, we always had geirim, some time periods more than others. But geirim really have Jewish souls to begin with which push them to become geirim, so I’m not talking about that.

I’m talking about the growing number of non Jews coming to learn about Hashem and Torah from Jews to find meaning in their lives (as non Jews) and strengthen their connection with Hashem. Also the many non Jews who believe that their blessings in life will come from being true friends of the Jewish people. Some examples:

CUFI has topped five million (yes they still have false beliefs but they’re way ahead of their ancestors…as the Rambam says in hilchos melachim that the reason why those two religions started to begin with is so they get some of the truths such as belief in One G-d, and moshiach… And then when the truth is revealed they’ll find it easy to discard the garbage their ancestors taught them along with the truth.)

Growing numbers of Christians interested in coming closer to the “old testament” roots and learning from Jews about it.

Many gentiles rejecting Christianity altogether in favour of the 7 mitzvos bnei noach. (We have a two part Sefer recently printed on the details of each of the sheva mitzvos bnei noach driven by demand as the non Jews said we had to inform them of the details the same way we keep kosher practically because we have detailed Halachos.) (There is a centre for them in Texas. They are a hard demographic to sustain because when they learn further, many decide they want to go become full fledged Jews. Nevertheless when in history have you seen this?)

Celebrities coming to rabbis to learn how to have a meaningful life. (Rabbi Heller the mohel has helped a bunch of these, and when they asked him what he wanted in return he said they should start modest clothing fashions… Bh the trend has caught on.)

The parade of the nations in Israel. Etc.

YR
“This is why “The Rebbe runs the world” is kefira, plain and simple.”

Sorry meant to address that line in the last post and forgot.I addressed this earlier but in any case its not kefira because it’s not replacement for Hashem. What we mean is it may look like Donald trump decided to move the embassy, (and on yud tes Kislev no less) but really its because of the Rebbe shturming above that Hashem should move things forward towards Geula.

Ie the Rebbe instead of the goyishe world leaders and politics, not instead of Hashem.

Laskern:
“CS, If Jews would have stayed the full 400 years, there would have been no other galus. The Chasam Sofer explains that Pesach was the cause for Tisha Beov that is why we eat eggs at the seder which falls on the same day as א’ת the first day of Pesach falls as Tisha Beov. It is like being hit by pebbles or a rock, many smaller galuses or a big one.”

Fascinating. I didn’t hear this before but it makes sense with what I did know, namely that Hashem had to recalculate the ketz so that He could redeem them before they fell to the 50th gate of tumaah where they would not have been able to get out from. And they came out with “Rav” which is gimatria 202 out of the 288 nitzutzos we need to elevate throughout history.

This ties in very well – if they hadn’t sunk to mem tes shaarei tumaah, they would have been able to stay the full 400 years, and thus elevate ALL the sparks so we would have had the complete Geula.

Incidentally this also addresses sams question about oisgeputzen di kneplach:

On a world scale we had to elevate all the sparks from the spiritual world of Tohu which “fell” by sheviras hakeilim into this world – oilam hatikkun. We do this by working with the world and elevating it by using it for Torah, mitzvos and Avodas Hashem.

When the Rebbe first became Rebbe there was only a tiny amount of this avoda left – which was referred to as polishing the buttons – the last minor task soldiers do when preparing for the generals inspection.

Some years later the Rebbe said this avoda too was completed so on a WORLD scale we are ready for Geula. This does not mean that we no longer have a yetzer hara or cannot further work on ourselves as individuals. Of course we can and must. But the work of all the generations until now suffices on a world scale to have the Geula.

Sam
““Men hot shoin ausgepuzt die kneplach”? This was said 30-35 years ago by the Rebbe. Why are we still in Galus then?”

See my post to laskern for background. To answer the question, the Rebbe asked this as well and said all his work is for nothing as moshiach still hasn’t arrived yet. He concluded that the answer is that Hashem wants moshiach and Geula to go from being just something that the Nossi cares about to something the Am, every regular man woman and child care about. So it’s up to us…

(regarding ykk I said earlier I don’t know enough about it but it’s not just lubavitch that doesn’t observe it now).

SH:
“Two come to mind immediately, Shlomo Carlebach and Zalman “Shalomi” Schechter.”

Yup that’s who I had in mind.

“At risk of sounding crude, I’m going to say this anyway. The Rebbe wasn’t the fluffy and fuzzy character portrayed on JEM clips lovingly giving out dollars to all those who came. The Rebbe had principles, very storong ones. The Rebbe was absolutely uncompromising on his stances, and did not back down.”

I never thought otherwise. But there’s a difference between standing strong on your principles, and throwing PEOPLE out. With all the thousands of people the Rebbe came in contact with, and the thousands of chassidim you can probably count the ousted people on one hand. And that’s a good thing. To be elaborated on further down…

“The Rebbe was similarly outraged at SBV when he came out with his infamous book, and forbade him from ever writing about Moshiach again, in very harsh terms.”

Really? I thought the story was that when he dropped flyers all over EY saying the Rebbe is moshiach the Rebbe told him to pick them up. And being a chossid, he did. Id be interested to see where you got your information from or if it was made up.

“One can only imagine the Rebbes reaction to much of what is going on in Lubavitch today, and to the Call of the Shofar episode.”

I was at the CH asifa and came away very impressed with how they handled it. The message wasnt one of knocking or ousting the people who went or playing the blame game, the Rabbanim and mashpiim who spoke emphasised that even if it was all kosher (it was still being investigated) why go to other sources when we have Chassidus? And they spoke in that vein – maybe people think chassidus is just for beinonim up etc. As a result several hachlotos were taken, one of which the Chassidus applied series by Rabbi Jacobson is still ongoing today. And we don’t hear of the call of the shofar since then. And there were some strict steps taken with a Mashpia who had gone etc. I think it was very much in line with the Rebbe’s approach. Like i have said, ahavas yisrael means for your own community as well.

“CS, I think you may have bought the image we often sell to Mekurovim about a fluffy and fuzzy Rabbi, with a silky long beard who loves everything and everyone unconditionally, no questions asked. This is a disgrace of everything the Rebbe stands for.”

Nope but it’s not about ousting people its about being true to the truth without waffling and standing up for whats right. For example, Rabbi Emmanuel Schochet pulled a prank with some other bochurim in Yeshiva where they switched around the books in the library and piled up the furniture.

They were expelled. He didn’t really care because he was almost done, but then he heard they were telling the Rebbe that they had damaged books and property which they hadn’t. So to set the record right he wrote to the Rebbe what had happened.

The Rebbe wrote back that he should please come back to Yeshiva but some teshuva was in order and the Rebbe said he should learn some prakim derech chaim (on teshuva) and fast a few half days. He wasn’t too happy about it but he agreed.

Later on he wanted to work and the Rebbe wanted him to write but he was concerned about parnassa. So the Rebbe offered him to work with the mazkirus. And many more incidents.

Here you see the balance by sending a clear message
About right and wrong but working with the indivisible instead of coldly ousting them. As I said if the Rebbe had ousted people left right and center we would have lost many precious neshamos as well as much of our talent.

“Once again, I apologise in advance if my words have hurt you, I have nothing against you, it’s the false ideology that I hate.”

Lol no offense taken especially as I don’t disagree that you must have limits and say whats right.

Ca
“Yes we know that. (Although there are stories where people asked for promises from various contemporary Gedolim / Rebbes and were told if you want a promise, not just a Brocha, you can only find that by lubavitch. Don’t know if this is helpful because I don’t know by heart where to find it amongst the thousands of others, I just remember the story itself. But as it’s relevant I thought to mention.)

Let me guess where you can find this story(ies)

In a Lubavitcher Sefer/book”

It was one of the first person stories that happened with someone from manhattan (hadnt been frum) whose daughter was in a coma… Can be found on jem maybe someone would have the link. I remember the story don’t know the link by heart.

But btw the story with R Baruch Ber who told the Rebbe that if he studied by him he would become the next gadol hador of the litvishe world, was told over by Rabbi Shaya shimonowitz from Torah Vodaas, who was present at the time.

SH:
“Yeah, that’s why we had a problem with the Call of the Shofar cult. We should be much quicker to throw people and ideas out, there’s a reason why Call of the Shofar targeted Chabad and was successful.”

I don’t think that’s the Rebbes approach. I only know of one person the Rebbe ousted, maybe two. Everyone else the Rebbe helped them grow from where they were. And we would have lost a lot of our talent if he had done that. We dealt with the call of the shofar too. Also when you constantly assur things instead of showing a better way you end up making it more enticing to the struggling people.

““When Mashiach comes, all the talmidim of each tzadik will line up behind his tzaddik. ”

Thanks YR, I don’t know who explained that to you in this way, but I was taught the same way.”

Same here.

YR: “When you can go to chabad simchas without ever hearing the name of Hashem, only the Rebbe, when everything is addressed to the rebbe, when kids are encouraged to kiss a picture of the rebbe everyday, when kids only hear about the Rebbe’s yeshuos, YOU may know it’s not avoda zara, but do you think the next generation will????”

Yeah. Listen we just come from different mindsets so to you it would lead to problems but by us it won’t. The same way you wouldn’t blink twice with your grandkids thanking you for a gift you bought them. Obviously the gift come from Hashem but its not a contradiction to them or you so you don’t blink. That’s how it is with the Rebbe and us. There is no conflict. And that’s aside the fact that the Rebbe is my Rebbe too not just my parents Rebbe.

Regarding the rebbetzin- the pants are absolute lies, the sheitel I’ve heard conflicting reports – one is that early on she wore a hat that didn’t completely cover her hair (this was way back where most frum women didn’t cover their hair at all, and the rebbetzins did with a hat) but as soon as the Rebbe spoke about it she got a sheitel right away. Others said she had one all along. Regardless she was extraordinary in her tznius. Any kind of kovod made her super uncomfortable and she avoided the masses. Most chassidim (I mean women too) did not know what she looked like. When a crown heights store she shopped at found out that she was the rebbetzin and started giving her special treatment, she stopped shopping there. She never went to shul because she didn’t want a fuss made over her etc. She would introduce herself simply as Mrs. Schneerson from president St. Their home was also very simple. Very few people visited her in her home. She was very different than the Rebbes mother who was a very proud rebbetzin, went to shul often, warmly greeted people and made them feel welcome etc.

SH just to note I wasnt speaking of an unattended home birth obviously one with emergency equipment etc

Syag: not at all. Obviously Hashem is the One running the affairs of America right? So if I say Donald trump does does that make a kofer? No because it’s not a contradiction.

Why would this be any different?

Rso: “VERY proper, but you’re in the tiny minority in Lubavich in that area.”

Thank you. The scheduling Yeah I’d agree. The not schmoozing with (non family members) of the other gender, that goes for all chassidish people. All our friends. And different communities can be less or more chassidish
as well so maybe your relatives are from a less chassidish community so they’re considered chassidish there maybe? But from what I’ve seen in CH by the chassidish lubavitchers and elsewhere that isn’t the case.

DY: “No, we can’t. It’s avodah zarah.”

That’s an impressive one liner that explains how my post was wrong. Great many sources you brought. I hope you never say that Donald trump directs the affairs of America because according to you, it’s avoda zara.

Kcup
“Syag lchachma, agreed, although I’m sure there are live rebbe that refer chabadshlucha to the rebbe igros.
The whole thing is a really strange Rorschach where they end up doing what they would have in the first place.”

Haven’t had that but have had Rabbanim tell me to write to the Rebbe on certain issues.

Kcup
“It’s ironic, that because you live in “Olam hazeh hagashmi”, you make an extra effort to communicate with the rebbe. you don’t see the irony?”

No I don’t. Living in the world far away from the crown heights Farbrengens and family, I feel the need for a
stronger connection even more acutely so I don’t get bogged down by what I’m lacking here.

Rso (and the follow up from syag np)
“CS, do you really think I am stupid or do you just simply not understand?

Me “Tznius and yiras shomayim are things that are all around and permeate every aspect of our lives…”

Rso: “Yes, yes, yes. BUT you can’t have kedusha IF you don’t have tznius in clothes. There may be mass murderers out there who dress in yeshivishe levush, and there may be people who dress chassidish who eat dovor acher on Yom Kippur (c”v to both). BUT if you see a group that does not dress tzniusdik then YOU KNOW that they don’t have kedusha regardless of everything else. And Lubavich is unfortunately well-known as having the lowest – and by that I mean against halacha – tznius of women in the chareidi world. (And btw, I mean it when I say “unfortunately”. It’s not something that makes me satisfied that I can use as a weapon.)”

So to your point rso I would say that i agree with you that those dressing less than fully tznius and mixing casually etc it does show a lack of kedusha all around. So if the chassidish of Chabad did that you would have a good point. My response was that:

A) the chassidish don’t have this problem.

Personally, I have to schedule and notify my husband, may Hashem bless him, whenever I have a (even married) friend over because he won’t come home if she’s here, and if he is home, he stays in our room until she leaves.

Now he might be a bit more refined than average, but with me and my friends, if my husband is hosting a mens shiur or farbrengen, I’ll also stay in the room, or go out, but if he’s having a friend over and I need something from the room, I’ll go and get it but I won’t talk to his friend.

Now we do host shabbos meals with both genders and well both share things at the table, but we don’t schmooze with the opposite gender.

B) as to the numbers game, people in your community dress tznius REGARDLESS of their lifestyle. Ie if they’re watching movies or worse they still look the part of a fully frum Jew (and yes that is a good thing) whereas in Chabad those who do those things, you see it reflected in their dress and behaviour, like the litvishe world. So it’s not a fair comparison.

C) if you want to know why we don’t do the communal pressure thing so at least we should all look the part regardless of personal lifestyle, it’s because we think it results in bigger problems, namely

C1: you throw out the baby with the bathwater. Ie you end up pushing Jews who were shomer most of the mitzvos or even all, but not up to communal standards, out of the community and very likely out of Torah observance completely.

C2: you discourage those who struggle with whatever standard there is (let’s say no smartphone) from getting help as that would give them a bad name in the community which would then punish them or their children. This results in

C3: a life of deception for those struggling, which obviously begets even worse issues, and a tendency to get worse instead of better.

YR: would you like me to explain the “Rebbe being the brain” “the Rebbe running the world” etc? I could. I think you may have mentioned in regards to reuven wolf, but when I spoke to one of my mashpios tonight as per the Ravs instructions, she used the latter expression and I remembered that no one really answered you on that.

Lmk any other questions if you have.

Chossid if you didn’t understand my post, there is no point in me responding to another one on the topic. Maybe ask a friend to explain it to you. I don’t think it’s that difficult to understand. In any case I’m not trying to convince you to use iggros. Yhi Loch asher Loch. I also know there are other ways the Rebbe will and has answered me. Just for me, iggros is the most personal. And I don’t write “to iggros” I write to the Ohel and open iggros afterwards… But yeah.