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CSParticipant
Arso,
Me: “The Rebbe said that Avodas haBirurim is finished because he knew what he was talking about. He said at the same time that it should not make sense, that it must be that what Hashem wants of us now is to switch to the avoda of Welcoming Moshiach.”
Arso: “I think I get it. The LR changed the playing field because it didn’t fit in with what he – and he alone – knew. If anyone else did something like that he would be called an apikorus, but not the LR because, according to the LR himself, he knew what he was talking about. And therefore what the RBSO has done simply makes no sense. So it’s LR -1, RBSO – 0.
Do you even realize what you are saying and what you expect us to believe?”
This is where you yourself show me you have no idea of what a real Rebbe is- not something I grew up with. The Rebbe spoke with ruach hakodesh on a constant basis, and the many people impacted on a personal level can and do testify to this- and not only Lubavitchers.
Our Rebbe is an extension of Moshe Rabbeinu today (and there could be others). That should give you some idea of what a Rebbe is.
When one of the plagues broke out, Moshe sent Aharon to stop it, and the Malach hamoves said he has a shlichus from Hashem so why would he listen to Moshe? Aharon answered that everything Moshe does is from Hashem.
Not everything was revealed to the Rebbeim, but whatever they knew, they knew.
CSParticipantAvira,
“The very essence of klal yisroel is tznius – this is what made bilaam turn his curse into a bracha, when he saw that the yidden had tents that were made to preserve the privacy of each family.
It isn’t just a nice thing. And I don’t care what the Lubavitcher rebbe said about it – if he erred in it, then i can tell you exactly why he did according to reports that are known in the Yeshiva world, but i will not write about it on here because it’s extremely offensive.”
So like I posted yesterday, there is no lubavitch mandate/ chinuch to hate on litvaks. Posts like this make me wonder whether the litvaks can claim the same?
In any case, The Rebbe strongly promoted tznius, called for lubavitch to dress like Beis Yakov.
This isn’t what the conversation was about. The conversation started on whether I should tell my little daughter that my friend’s Chessed would be worth much more if she dressed tznius, thus denigrating her publicly about something she wasn’t focusing on at the time, instead of appreciating the real her- her Neshama, as expressed in the Chessed she does.
Tznius is very important and tznius dress is more emphasized by women while shmiras eynayim more by men (lo sosuru applies to women too and Tznius dress applies to men too.)
It is one Mitzvah of the 613, and a beautiful one. Actually I don’t think it’s even one of the 613 directly (only lo sasuru) unless it falls under vhaya machanecha kadosh- which was speaking of bathroom placements.
In any case it’s important but not the sum all of Yiddishkeit.
When Moshe said אכן נודע הדבר, even though Shlomie bas divri had just happened, he wasn’t referring to that, he was referring to lashon hara.
When Eliezer went to search for a wife, he didn’t inquire into her Tznius (although all imahos were), he tested her Chessed.
So yes, Tznius dress is more emphasized by a woman, and reflects her general yiras shomayim (if not due to external factors), but it’s not the only Mitzvah that matters.
CSParticipantAvira,
“Sechel, if a jew violates a prohibition of tznius, it’s not apikorsus.
If a chabad shliach does so in public and teaches that tznius isn’t very important, then it most certainly is apikorsus.”
I know not addressed to me but wanted to answer: yes this is the distinction. This is exactly why the Rebbe distanced carlebach and his friend because they were compromising Halacha as shluchim, even though the Rebbe saw and encouraged many people who kept way less. No shluchim teach that it’s ok not to be tznius or anything else. There may be a very few who struggle themselves with it. If a shliach would teach such a thing about any Mitzvah, they would and have been removed
CSParticipantAvira,
“Chabad say you’re a good jew if you believe in their rebbe, and keep some mitzvos.”
I hope you’re not serious. We believe that every Jew has infinite value due to their Neshama. And the best way to express that is by doing all the mitzvos. Since there are very few we can actually fulfill now in golus, another reason to urgently cry for Moshiach.
CSParticipantArso,
“I have always marveled at the way Lubavichers say, as sechel has, that all Jews are equal, and that there is no difference between a mechalel Shabbos and someone who keeps Shabbos, and the like.
And despite that, on Shabbos in Chabad houses they either use mevushal wine, or they cover the bottle in case someone who doesn’t keep Shabbos looks at it. Still, no difference between someone who keeps Shabbos or someone who doesn’t, is there?”
We’re all equally Hashems children, with a chelek Eloka s as a Neshama. And we are all equally responsible to keep the mitzvos to the best of our ability, so while we warmly welcome a reform rabbi to our Chabad houses, we won’t attend theirs. We warmly invite all people to join shul but we won’t take down mechitzas.
In Chabad we learn to see the person for the Neshama they are, and not to lower our standards (which the first helps with, because they don’t truly want you to do anything wrong- it’s just shtusim from the yetzer hara or Nefesh habehamis.)
CSParticipantAvira, thanks for looking up about k9.
I don’t remember exactly what I posted, but something to the effect that we had used it. When we got married, we got k9 on our laptop. We also had a security password on our phones which we knew the code for each other. There were only really two types of filters then (at least to my knowledge). Block everything but what you get allowed, and unblock everything but explicit content. We tried the former but didn’t find it practical (even cooking supper became a headache to find a recipe because I had to wait till my husband was home… also there were allowed websites that the filter kept blocking and it proved frustrating), so we opted for the latter.
Eventually k9 didn’t work on our computer, so we kept it in a public place, The kids were too young to use it, and we used it for work purposes etc. We kept the filter on our phone, but didn’t really see any difference to our lives all along from the filter as we weren’t interested in the types of sites it was blocking.
When WhatsApp channels came out, I didn’t like the idea of disgusting names popping up on my phone, so that gave me the push to go to tag. In the meantime, newer filters had been established that were alot smarter than what we had had before. One just came out.
I really enjoyed the new features, especially face masking certain sites like shopping. Or being able to access/ partially access 613tube while still keeping you tube blocked. I had hated shopping Because of the pritzus, but now it’s alot better. So now I have my phone and laptop filtered through tag recently. And even though the phone one wasn’t as good and blocked apps I had never asked blocked, The enjoyment I have from having my phone filtered in a way that makes a difference overrode those annoyances, and I did get them resolved bH.
So that’s where I’m at bH:)
CSParticipantArso
“If that’s true that’s absolutely terrible! No background check on standards, so a shliach can be a total am haaretz, or a menuval, and he is officially recognized by the Lubavich powers-that-be as a shaliach.”The way the shlichus system is set up is that shliach oseh shliach. The first shliach to a country is a head shliach, who Is authorized to bring down further shluchim who can also etc.
The Rebbe never conditioned shlichus as only being for perfect people, but rather taught, as other Rebbeim did, if you know aleph teach aleph.
A flaw which may seem significant in the general community is not that important when there are unfortunately millions of yidden who dont know basics.
So there’s no extensive benchmarks one needs to pass, but they will have an interview with the head shliach who is considering them. Obviously if something is really off, the head shliach will see it. And can always take that person off the list if a mistake is made.
Generally the shlichus lifestyle demands growth, or the community will not financially support the shluchim. Generally shluchim are truly admirable in every way.
There can be some exceptions as there is to any rule.
An interesting question would be if we can be more picky lchatchila today because the globe is covered and so maybe we can be more selective?
An interesting point but A) many people would miss out on growth oriented lifestyle and the zechus harabbim, so is that worth it?
B) ckids, Jewq, cteen, cyp are all relatively new and we still are far from covered
CSParticipantAvira,
“There definitely are gemaros about tznius details – Brachos 24a, kesuvos 72b, many other places.”Definitely, but when in high school, hearing about tznius, I wanted to look up the Halachic sources for this important topic. I innocently opened up a kitzur shulchan aruch to hilchos tznius but didn’t find what I was looking for.
“The details of lashon hora are far lesa discussed, which precipitated the need for the chofetz chaim to delineate them”
There is no hilchos tznius anywhere in the classic sefarim. There are clear lavin against prohibited speech with sections in mishne Torah on it, and probably later classical sefarim too (before the times of the chofetz chaim).
CSParticipant“For apikorsim he says – tahlit sin’a sene’tim. Sin’ah without qualification.
How that fits with contemporary habad theology and habad practise is a myStern.”
Yb, the answer is that there is no true apikorsim today (Frierdiker Rebbe).
Acher was a true apikoros because he knew Hashems greatness and became an apikoros anyway.
Todays “apikorsim” are wannabes and lacking any true knowledge of Hashem and Yiddishkeit
CSParticipantMods I appreciate the edits!
“CS: So if a Chabad Shulcha regularly goes shopping in non tznius clothing, they’d be no consequences and she’d be allowed to continue representing Lubavitch? What if she regularly ate in public chicken-and-cheese sandwiches? There’s no explicit lav against eating chicken-and-cheese. What if she regularly drove to her Chabad House on Shabbos?”
Within Chabad, there is a lot of trust given to individuals. If that trust is broken, there can be severe consequences for the individuals involved, no matter their status (I saw such a communal correction myself). But yes, unfortunately some of my non lubavitch friends tell me how they’ve been to shluchim all over the world, and how one was not ok (yes the vast vast majority are yereim ushleimim in any way.) I don’t know the individuals involved, but if I ever saw something that was a serious breach, I’d go to the head shluchim about it, as each shliach is answerable to their head shliach.
“Where are you drawing the line? Why a bathing suit no but a short dress TMI in public when she sits, walks, edited or perhaps even when she walks has no repercussions regarding her representing Chabad?”
Ultimately we all represent our communities, and there are over 5000 shluchim and if you look percentage wise, that will speak for itself positively and when I ask these individuals, they admit that the vast vast majority are admirable in every way. Each shliach is busy doing their own work and aren’t busy policing others. But like I said, if something egregious were witnessed, I would certainly want to talk to the head shliach.
CSParticipantArso,
“I find it interesting that you were never upset about the lashon hara when CS wrote a number of times how others look at their Rebbes, how others tznius is only for show and the like. ”
On my end, I’ve been careful not to label specific groups or individuals, and made the examples generic. Please quote the lashon hara laws violated. I could be wrong, but I didn’t think this qualified. Trying to keep to productive points as well. Obviously I could be wrong, so please do quote the relevant Halachos. Thanks!
CSParticipantUjm:
“Are you trying to say that violating Tznius is not as bad as violating Shabbos? Do you agree that both are equally bad?”
Not sure where this is going. I would think shabbos is worse, firstly punishment wise, and also it’s one of the three to be considered frum, basic frum. Someone who wears pants but keeps shabbos, kashrus and taharas hamishpacha is frum no? At least in a basic sense.
If she dresses tznius but is mechallel shabbos no.
Of course, according to Chassidus, every aveira is equally against Hashems ratzon, and also completely separates one from Hashem while actually doing it. But regarding that aspect, everything is equal
CSParticipant“let’s just say my deletions tell a different story“
Look, the other day on this thread when discussing this, I was thinking of an experience I had being hosted by a crude guy (not lubavitch.)
Then I said, well I was also hosted by a crude Chabad guy once…
Yetzer hara doesn’t differentiate. Intentional chinuch is one thing. People’s personal hurts/ stories or derogatory references to others is pretty much all the result of yetzer hara, and middos work to do- not the outcome of a specific chinuch.
Within Chabad, there is no chinuch to hate on other yidden of any type. Although people can get defensive and put others down- myself included- that’s just because I have work to do on myself- not a chinuch directive. And I’d assume, unless shown otherwise, that it’s the same with other kreizen as well.
CSParticipantMS
Thanks for the chofetz chaimYb
“The only way forward , if so , is for the habad rabbinic leadership to open up a no holds barred discussion of their leaders personality.
How , even a great person , who had a lot to offer [in his hasidim’s eyes], is not infallible .…”Have you ever seen the Rambam describe the Mitzvah of Respecting Talmidei Chachamim? How if someone rebels against his Rebbe he’s rebelling against Hashem? How about rashi- even if they (leaders) say that right I’d let/ left is right, follow them…
Why don’t you look up those two and then come back to what the mesora is?
CSParticipantArso
“Pray tell, what did his peers (I’m astounded that you consider any of the other talmidei Hamaggid his ‘peers’!)”
What would you call them? Chevraya (Kadisha) means peers.
“ believe? Could it possibly be that a person can do what they want, not daven, not learn, not do anything else you have to do, and still find salvation? Isn’t that a new testament piece of garbage?”
Not at all. But it meant that in effect, when the chossid davened with a brenn, it was his Rebbes davening, not his own- since his whole excitement was solely based on his experience by his Rebbe, and not his own internal work. Kind of like music playing and everyone enthusiastic, but when you shut it… Of course he was doing the mitzvos, no one suggested otherwise.
“I know that Lubavich has always claimed that this was a key difference, but I have never heard any non-Lubavich source mention this. (I should be used to that by now.)
Can you give me a non-Lubavich source that tells us exactly in what way the Baal Hatanya’s colleagues differed to him regarding this passuk?”No, its pretty well known, but I haven’t yet managed to learn all the chassidus outside of Chabad so I’d have no idea where to look
CSParticipantArso,
“Honestly?! Lovely that you judge yourselves favorably. That way you will always consider your way successful no matter how many children of shluchim and others go off.
Am I the only one here who finds it frustrating to be arguing with someone who seems to be living in a virtual (un)reality?”
But honestly I meant that the ones who go off don’t hide it with frum clothing. And therefore because secrecy isn’ta culture by us, people can always reach out for help openly
Let me say though, I love seeing little chassidish children who have an air of innocence around them (sorry litvish nothing personal- I haven’t lived/ interacted in the yeshivish crowd yet.)
Like I’m proud to bring my children on mivtzoim etc. and am proud of my derech, but that doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate the innocent culture that the Chassidish community promotes.
CSParticipantArso,
“If they have a yetzer hara, and would like to be rid of it, then they have not abandoned any mitzva, which is the terminology you used.”
Every yid internally wants to do the right thing- that’s what the Rambam says.
That doesn’t mean that externally, anyone who is dishonest did it without any intention, as an honest mistake, and is eager to fix it. So my question to you was why are you singling out tznius as something to have zero tolerance for, but not honesty, lashon hara or any other of the 613 that people struggle with, or don’t bother with those aspects?
CSParticipantArso,
“Does the worker have to DEMAND his wages, or does it suffice if he merely asks (nicely) for them?”
Honestly I’d need to see the exact lashon. I remember it quoted on this topic of demanding- would love to see the source
CSParticipantArso,
“Right. And in Europe someone who wasn’t tzniusdik didn’t even want to send their kids to cheder. So he wasn’t talking about those types of families. He was talking about families that weren’t on a level of the “upper families”.”He didn’t say that this idea was only relevant to “certain not 💯 families.”
But to your point, the Rambam writes not to put people who swear by Hashem’s Name in public nidui (when that was in use), because you’ll end up with no community.
Similarly, throughout history, when communal standards fell in a certain area, even very important areas such as sota and murderers, the response was Sanhedrin shutting down, not executing however many Jews were unfortunately involved. Same with the Rambam I just mentioned.
In todays day and age, if someone is lacking in a certain area, it is due to the world we live in, whether ignorance/ widespread exposure etc. So we work to uphold standards in positive ways, but this idea of shutting out any but all who look externally perfect- where is that in Yiddishkeit?
And why is a lady who isn’t dressed tznius the biggest no no, but a man who dresses perfectly chassidish (notlubavitch) is forgiven for watching all the things he does on his devices, and is known he does, because at least he dresses the part? So alls good and his kids can join the school. But dressed imperfectly? Forget it!
Please explain that one too
CSParticipantArso,
“ You find it funny, but it find the above very sad. In ALL the seforim avodas habirurim is what is required since sheviras hakeilim, and when that is finished Mashiach arrives IMMEDIATELY. (Surprise, surprise! You can find all this on our erstwhile friend chabadpedia.) Yet your source – the LR, right? – says that we’ve finished avodas habirurim, and the fact that Mashiach hasn’t come yet means that Hashem is (c”v) doing something that doesn’t make sense. I suggest that it’s not c”v Hashem who doesn’t make sense. Rather it’s the one who purported that we have finished avodas habirurim!
Is it any wonder that we look at some of the statements made by the LR and are unsure whether they border on apikorsus?”
Again which sefarim all discuss this? Chabad? Other? Names?
The Rebbe said that Avodas haBirurim is finished because he knew what he was talking about. He said at the same time that it should not make sense, that it must be that what Hashem wants of us now is to switch to the avoda of Welcoming Moshiach. According to the Rambam, the early Yemos HaMoshiach start in golus. What does it mean to welcome moshiach?
A) to live your life as ready for moshiach to come any min. Say Hashem would declare Pesach any min, The readiness you’d have a as far as a chometz free house etc. so too, living with moshiach awareness means taking on and living with all the hachlotos you would want to do if you knew he’s coming now.
B) spreading Moshiach awareness by learning Inyonei Moshiach and geula. For the not frum- just learning about what geula is and how to await it today. For the frum already- making it top in mind and lived with. For those interested, one may tell who Moshiach is, as this gives clarity on how to ready the world…
Todays Tanya says the geula is an outgrowth of the work we put in in golus. The Rebbe saw that this concept extends to actually bringing the era here by helping people to live and want it, happen naturally in that way…
CSParticipantAvira,
“ n the lashon chazal, men are called tzadikim and women are called tznuos – it is THE ikar for a woman.”
Chazal called Shaul a tzanua so not exactly, but The Rebbe also said tznius is the crown midda for a woman. Of course it’s important, just not something you exclude someone from a community for, any more than say lashon hara which is actually an explicit lav. There is no section of Gemara or anywhere else discussing tznius dress, whereas forbidden speech is.
But like I said, excluding people in general is not our way. It seems to be a great hashkofa to raise adults who are not dan lkaf zechus, and promote a general attitude of sinas yisrael- where you’ll have a child with such an education calling a yid who walks into a store looking different than him a goy, whereas a Lubavitcher kid will say hey there’s a yid.
CSParticipantAvira,
“ It’s halacha lemaaseh because the Rambam writes it in Mishne Torah, just as the rules for Mashiach are halacha lemaaseh because the Rambam writes them in Mishne Torah. That was always the official Lubavich line. Oh, I forgot. We pick and choose…
Btw, I especially liked “I’m going to leave it at that.” How nice of you.”
Moshiach is Halacha lmaase today, because the shulchan aruch etc. don’t discuss moshiach Halachos, only ones relevant in golus. Could be Nevuah falls under this category too. My point is simply that lubavitch never bright this aspect out so as I don’t feel sufficiently educated to address it, and it’s not lubavitch who is speaking of misa bidei shomayim etc. I’ll leave it for now. Anyone who is learned on our end and can look into it is welcome to.
CSParticipantAh I see on I’m on p 11. Not bad.
Avira,
“ Are you intentionally missing the point? They are official shluchim, and they post pictures which, at times, have shown then doing things that are clearly against Shulchan Aruch (I’m talking about the area of tznius). What does bechira chofshis have to do with it? They should be told to stop or ‘dregistered” from Shlichus. Would you be ok with official shluchim posting pictures of themselves driving on Shabbos? Why is this any different?”
Shlichus, as I’ve said, encompasses a vast number of people holding at different standards. It is not the top 10% of lubavitch. There is no background checks on someone’s standards before they are assigned, if they signed up. Afaik.
The issue of posting has been addressed by Rabbonim at the shluchos convention. If there is a breach of Halacha or any serious complaints, one can contact the head shliach who the shliach is under.
But again, we can make a difference whatever level we’re at. Chabad and even shlichus is not out for the top top. If it were, we’d have alot less impact. Everyone has something to give.
CSParticipantHi just popping in to say hi and haven’t forgotten this thread. BH been very busy with many things. Also just a shout out regarding filters- we just installed on the laptop and on my phone, and really enjoying the updated filter experience. The old ones we had (k-9, iPhone) basically blocked everything but a list of individual sites- which didn’t work for me, or nothing but “adult content” sites. So we had the latter. But the new filters are much more customized and I’m really happy they exist and we have them.
Just a note. I’m up to page ten when I start responding. In case I don’t get to it before hand, wishing you all a happy Purim.
CSParticipantJust to correct, I should have said, I would think that most people who aren’t Chabad, and are sincere about their Yiddishkeit, maybe all, don’t think with the misnagdishe mindset displayed in the song. Everyone today has exposure to Chassidus and its attitudes and that’s why this song is an old Ukrainian/ Yiddish song, and there are no contemporary songs about Misnagdim. The reason why I like it is purely ideological- it provides contrast and outlines the mindset we strive to live in.
CSParticipantJust to respond to the part about Chabad putting down misnagdim:
Firstly, as I’ve been told many times, the Frierdiker Rebbe already said that there are no true misnagdim today. If someone puts down an individual or group of people derogatorily, it’s not coming from Chassidus, it’s coming from that person’s yetzer hara.
That said, we definitely can discuss ideology and the pluses and minuses that result. So, in high school on a Shabbaton one time, I learned a song which displays the difference between amisnagdishe and Chassidishe mindset.
As said there are no true misnagdim today, and obviously not every individual who doesn’t learn Chassidus ends up this way, but this song is discussing what can happen when one lacks what Chassidus gives. As well, The Chassidus mindset part of the song, is what Chassidus expresses, but it doesn’t mean we’re all holding there.
This was one occurrence in my entire education. I actually enjoy the song, as it reminds me of what we’re aspiring to.
There’s also one joke I enjoy- again because it’s about ideology- not anyone in particular.
But in general within Chabad, the stress is on ahavas Yisrael to every yid no matter who or where they’re holding, and I would hope that is what you would feel coming into contact with a Lubavitcher, whether on shlichus or in general.
let’s just say my deletions tell a different story
CSParticipantArso,
“ That’s why you have to ALWAYS be negative about the aspect you don’t want your daughter to accept. In decades of dealing with young people I have seen many people go completely off R”L, and many go partly off – some of them relatives, unfortunately – and it is nearly always because of parents/family expressing the “good side” of the person who is not frum.”
I think this would be the case if you confuse the two together. But if you acknowledge that is true, The woman isn’t dressed properly AND this doesn’t have to be the impression you pick up about her, you’re educating on both.
And it definitely takes education to see the good in others more than what’s lacking. What education do you do in that respect?
CSParticipantGadolhadofi
“ It’s only getting worse as the decades pass so until the Rabbinic leadership puts a full halt to it, all the justifications and arguments in the world won’t make it any more palatable.”
I’m sorry this bothers you, but meshichism can never be shut down, as what the Rabbonim think hashkafically cannot override the clear printed sichos of the Rebbe, and nobody would make himself look so stupid as to say anything in that direction.
CSParticipantCA
“ A rebbe is a משפיע not a policeman (I don’t know any rebbe/Rav that’s a “policeman”
You are lacking a משפיע that can’t guide you in the right direction
I don’t see how this was different than my previous post that you commented about”
I was responding to your post which you said that we need a “live” Rebbe to impose standards.
We have mashpiim who inspire already. And the Rebbe told us the time has come to do the work within, without the constant imposition of The Rebbe, in geula fashion of לא י׳הי׳ה עסק כל העולם כולו אלא לדעת את ה׳ בלבד
CSParticipantArso,
“ “Peilisher chassidim” and their beliefs are something invented by Lubavich, so that Lubavich can say, “We are much better.” I know of no “Peilisher chassidim” who have ever said that the Rebbe is the one who does all the work!”
Apparently you’re ignorant of the very early disagreement between the Alter Rebbe and his peers on the meaning of צדיק באמונתו יחי׳ה.
He held that every chossid could do the work applying the tools given by The Rebbe, and they held that you had to keep up your inspiration by regular visits to the Rebbe to sustain it- ie the life comes from the Rebbe in a makkif way.
CSParticipantArso,
“ From literally decades of experience with kids and young adults: it works! When a kid sees that the person does something blatantly wrong, e.g. doesn’t dress appropriately, and you stress that the person has so many good middos, the kid more often than not understands that the good deeds are mechaper on the bad, and for a kid to think that is terrible and extremely harmful.”
You’re quoting what you don’t do. That’s not called experience. In lubavitch we teach how, on the one hand we must always demand from ourselves and look to do better, and on the other hand, to see only the good in other people- highlight the real them as much as possible.
Yes if you say it’s fine not to dress tznius because you do Chessed, you won’t get good results. But we have an entire growing community who are trained to see ourselves honestly, and see as much as possible only the Neshama aspect of others. And yes, we don’t only see success for ourselves with this approach, but we see success worth bringing others closer as well.
CSParticipantArso,
“ No. We frum people do lots of aveiros, at least I do, Rachmono litzlon, but we do not ‘abandon’ even one of them. We are nichshal and hope to be better. If someone, on the other hand, marries a shiksa, he is abandoning a mitzva, not just being nichshal.”
There are plenty of frum people who aren’t honest in business for example, and don’t look to get better. Or do what they’re used to in regards to shabbos or tznius/ shmiras einayim etc. many people live within their comfort zone. Let’s not kid ourselves.
CSParticipantArso,
“ I saw that clip, and as far as I remember it wasn’t about kids whose parents aren’t tzniusdik or who didn’t keep important ikarei hadas. It was about kids who weren’t top in learning and maybe also in behavior. If I’m wrong, please show me where I can see that clip.”
AFAIK, he said that there was one cheder for everyone in town. And this whole business of only perfect families allowing their kids to have contact was never a thing.
(One issue is the people who think they’re perfect.)
Just btw tznius is not an ikkar hadaas. It’s one Mitzvah, like lashon hara and all the others..
“The Chofetz Chaim demanded Mashiach?! Do you have a source for that?”
He wrote that the Mitzvah of the worker getting paid on time doesn’t apply if the worker didn’t demand his wages. So we must also demand Moshiach or Hashem isn’t obligated either.
I’m sure he did what he wrote.
CSParticipantArso,
“ That has always bothered me. If ALL the sparks have been elevated, then Mashiach should have come. I know the LR said that it therefore makes absolutely no sense that Mashiach hasn’t come, but to me, and those with whom I have discussed it, that sounds like nonsense at the very least, and apikorsus at the very worst.”
I find this funny. Where in nigle/ other kreizen do you find Avodas habirurim discussed at length that you repudiate the source it comes from?
Yes within Lubavitch, a Rebbes means that he is capable of telling us where we are holding now. Obviously, a regular person cannot do this which is one reason why the notion of lubavitch just replacing their Rebbe with a respected mashpia is ridiculous.
The Rebbe told us that our avoda has completely shifted from Avodas habirurim(which is now finished), to the avoda of welcoming Moshiach. And that every Mitzvah we do should be through the lens of bringing about the revelation of geula. I could explain this further if you desire
CSParticipantArso,
“ They were born Lubavich and have never strayed from it.”
Ah that makes more sense. You have all kinds of rough characters in all kreizen. Just because someone is a Lubavitcher, doesn’t mean they’re Chassidish (within lubavitch) and doesn’t mean they’re living past their comfort zone. We all have bechira chofshis- lubavitch or not.
Regarding the Nevuah point, I’ve never heard misa video shomayim or otherwise discussed by anyone in lubavitch- in either direction. I know there’s a whole section in Rambam discussing Nevuah, but I haven’t learned it in depth, nor do I know if that’s the accepted Halacha lmaase. As I’ve never heard it mentioned within lubavitch, I’m going to leave it at that.
CSParticipantHaLeivi,
“ CS, I must say, something is very odd. Lubavitch has spoken this talk in earlier years, how Peilischer Chasidim make it all about the Rebbe but in Lubavitch the Chasidim do the work and the Rebbe is just the teacher.
But now you have the whole Chasidus more Rebbe-centric than anyone else. And you constantly hear about his greatness and status. But if you’re putting him up there—way more than Peilischer Chasidim—how can you also say that his influence is limited?
Which is it?”
Great question:). I think it’s unfortunate that Chabad is known for being Rebbe centric- because of how it reflects on other groups. We regard The Rebbe and his word as kodesh kodoshim, and that is both a natural outcome of relating to a Rebbe of our Rebbes caliber, and also a result of the Rebbes tremendous hiskashrus to the Frierdiker Rebbe, and farbrengens about hiskashrus to the FR, both before he undertook the nesius and the year afterwards. But within that same time period, in the opening maamar of The Rebbe, he emphasized that he’s only there to assist us and we need to do our own work.
I think it used to be quite common that when any Rebbe of any kreiz instructed any chossid, it would be viewed the same way. Unfortunately, it seems in other kreizen , maybe not all, but based on the people I’ve met and interacted with on this, they see the Rebbe as someone to admire, but they can tell he isn’t say, a tzadik of Tanya.
So for example, when someone asked Rav Lau why he associates with crazy lubavitch, he asked the fellow what he would do if his Rosh Yeshiva asked him to go to a forsaken place to spread Yiddishkeit. The fellow said he would ask about chinuch? Mikvah? Local kosher stores? Etc. Rav Lau responded none and again asked what he would say. The fellow answered he would tell his Rosh Yeshiva to go himself!
In Chabad, we know that the Rebbe was connected above in a way different than the average. There was clear ruach hakodesh/ mind reading etc on a regular basis. And therefore if he asks me to go on shlichus, or not to go (sometimes harder), that this is my personal mission in this world from Hashem, spoken through the Rebbe.
So because of the awe this generates, unfortunately we have this name of being Rebbe centric, when really this is exactly how the Rambam describes how one should treat his Rebbe.
Yet, the Rebbe can give treasures of sichos on how to live in a mindset and lifestyle ready for geula, and how to prepare the world etc. All very clear. But if I don’t take that and implement it, The mission isn’t happening and all the Rebbes efforts are cvs להבל ולריק.
Of course, The Rebbe set tremendously high goals and standards and not everyone has found their way there yet. But they know that it’s not the Rebbes issue, the Rebbes words are as relevant as ever, but they’re not holding there yet Mitzad their Nefesh habehamis etc.
Hope this clarifies.
disclaimer: apologies to those whose kavod to their rav were misrepresented
CSParticipantAAQ,
“ I am not sure are you addressing 3 yo or 18 yo kids, but why do you need to connect these 2 issues together and also address judging every person you meet? If you see someone doing chesed, discuss that act, you don’t need to either approve or discount everything that person did. Hope the kid sees enough positive examples at other times.”Agreed. She isn’t doing Chessed because she isn’t tznius- her Chessed is an expression of her Neshama. Ironically, it’s actually the opposite in Yiddishkeit- the bad a Yid does is not the real him, it’s temporary, and gets washed off through teshuva or yissurim etc, but the mitzvos one does are eternal connections to Hashem and have everlasting effect.
CSParticipantAvira, coffee addict
“Cs – i can only imagine what was edited out if you actually wrote that people who are not chasidish “care in general less about yiddishkeit” – if by yiddishkeit you mean cultish messianic hysteria over a deceased rabbi, then you’re right, but that applies to every branch of chasidus besides Lubavitch too.
If you want to see non-chasidish jews caring about yiddishkeit; where was Lubavitch in the city field event, where klal yisroel came together in all of its stripes to acknowledge and accept on themselves to not use unfiltered internet? Where is Lubavitch in the siyum hashas every 7 years, when klal yisroel celebrates its cherished Torah and their completion of the gemara? Where is Lubavitch kollelim, where idealistic young families sacrifice a life of material success to be davuk in Hashem and His Torah day and night, not just as a means of becoming a missionary in Hawaii?
Klal yisroel cares about Torah. They do not, however, care about personality cults.”Sorry the word Chassidish can mean two things and I see it was confused. Within lubavitch, Chassidish is like what yeshivish is to litvish. I was saying that those within lubavitch who don’t care to strive to be Chassidish will not have passion about many things, this included. That’s what I was referring to. And the only things edited out were the names of two podcasts by lubavitch youth today, with moshiach passion. Not sure why they were edited out- there were no links.
CSParticipantלא הביט און ביעקב- when? When we do the same for each other
CSParticipantIn Chabad we learn to focus on ourselves and only see positive in others (unless we need to be mechanech.)
ברכנו אבינו כולנו כאחד
When do we receive Hashem’s brachos? Only when we are United with others.
Why do we (in Chabad) start with hareini? If I don’t Love every single Jew, my davening cannot draw down any brachos, because I’m a broken vessel.
A yid can find all kinds of reasons why something not good happens to himself, but to excuse others pain? Unacceptable.
CSParticipantArso,
“ the way to keep the kid aligned is to say something like, “It’s great that that woman does so much chesed, but unfortunately it’s really terrible that she is not tzniusdik. What a pity. Her chesed would be worth so much more.”
Why do you think emphasizing the negative is better and produces better results? To me that will result in seeing everyone as less than (while conveniently forgetting that I also have work to do.)
There are two parts to the person: your approach is to want everyone to see the yetzer hard in them, while we don’t excuse the yetzer hara (it’s true) but choose to pick up the Neshama in the person and be inspired.
There are many many children who have grown up into wonderful Chassidishe adults with this chinuch. Yes it’sa fine line. Everything in chinuch is a fine line.
Chabad is far from collapsing. We have only expanded both as Anash and as shluchim, especially post Gimmel Tammuz.
CSParticipantAvira,
“ One should not feel that they are frum if they abandon mitzvos, even one of them. You can show love to distant, sinful jews – whether they’re tinknos shenishbu or not – without bringing the mess into klal yisroel.”
So you keep all the mitzvos perfectly? You never fail at even one of hilchos shabbos? Shmiras einayim? Lashon hara? Etc etc?
Just yesterday I saw in Rambam that (at least in his time) if someone makes a shvuah inappropriately with Hashem’s name or kinui, he should place him under nidui privately for chillul Hashem, but remove it immediately so as not to cause others to stumble as they don’t know about the nidui. And why not make it public? Because then there are be no community as everyone will be ostracized….
CSParticipantArso,
“ As far as I understood then, the Litvak’s complaint was not that people expressed a yearning for Mashiach. Rather, it was the terminology which seemed (to him and to others) that they were demanding Mashiach. Which is indeed the way the LR encouraged it”
I suppose this litvak didn’t know the chofetz chaim was the same:)
CSParticipantArso
The Rebbe shared what was close to his heart and urged them to do so (not sure why printing/ sharing Torah would be against mesora- this phrase is sounding overused), but they were free to do what they wished with it. The Rebbe also demanded of Chassidim, (the Rebbe spoke on tznius too btw), but ultimately it’s a chossid led movement in both deciding who the Rebbe is, and b) having the space to implement what we can of The Rebbes endless heights of expectations, without being excluded from the community.CSParticipantArso,
“ CS, you’re beautiful explanation of the ‘value’ of the shortcomings in Lubavich, doesn’t really hold water.
Just as a parent’s primary job is to instruct – yes, even dictate – to a child the way to behave, and a rabbi’s job is to instruct his community how to behave, a Rebbe’s job is to instruct and dictate to his chassidim. Allowing each one to move along at their own pace is great, as long as it does not affect others, and a lack of tznius – both in dress and in mixing of the genders – affects everyone in the community.
Furthermore, you can’t say that your rebbe didn’t attempt to ‘dictate’ to others, as there are numerous accounts of him meeting other rebbes and telling them that they should instruct their chassidim to learn chassidus, and to publish various works of chassidus – something that was against those rebbes’ mesorah.”
Of course I educate my children, as to what’s right and wrong, but that will not be at the expense of a communal attitude of only allowing perfect children and families in the school, as friends etc.
I saw Rav Shteinman A”H, say that such an attitude is pure gaava, and he or someone else litvish shared that there was no such thing in the cheders of pre war Europe.
Of course as a mother I remain vigilant, and if I see a friend of influencing her/ him negatively, instead of him/ her influencing the friends positively, I will need to step in and possibly break down that friendship.
But as a general rule, we are very clear with standards, and also encourage Ahavas Yisrael.
The Baal Shem Tov taught that a yid can descend to this world for 70 or 80 years just to do one favor for another yid.
How many opportunities would we miss on our calling in life with the excluding attitude?
And where does that end? None of us are 💯 perfect?
CSParticipantArso,
“ I don’t think so. That would imply that all the other gedolei olam were only tznius when they were in company, and that is being motzi shem ra on all of them. I believe Shaul and Kimchis were singled out because they went above the letter of the law.”
What I’ve learned, and am implying is that a true sense of tznius is am exactly that, a sense of yiras shomayim, and you know it most when it’s kept even in the bathroom, even in the desert, and even when no one is home. Obviously, kimchis dressed 💯 tznius and so did Shaul. Those were outcomes though, not the definition.
Micha says הצנע לכת עם אלוקיך, not one specific act, but a mode of life of being aware of Hashem’s presence at all times (which will obviously manifest publicly too).
CSParticipantArso,
“ When I am at a Lubavich simcha – as you know I have a number of family members and acquaintances who are Lubavichers – and am sitting at a table where I am the lone non-conformist. A glass or two (or three or four…) of alcohol usually makes the imbiber feel that it is up to him to convert the infidel, and I am harrangued by him, often with the encouragement of some of the others, to show me how my chassidus is wrong, and how Lubavich has the only true path. He has the Nassi Hador, the Navi and the Mashiach, while all I have is a belief in nigleh and a stress on tznius. (Please note, that in most instances the imbiber had very little knowledge of nigleh, and his risque comments show he has no inkling at all of tznius.)
Now I am not saying it happens all the time, but I am saying that that is the most common situation when it happens. And it does indeed happen.”
I’m sorry that this has been your experience. Ironic considering your relatives aren’t Chassidish by your descriptions. But I find that the putting down of others attitude comes from the Nefesh habehamis- not from a sincere place. It’s unfortunate when the NFHB dresses up in a kapote.
CSParticipantArso,
“ That is one way it happens, although they don’t quote the Rambam. Another is when I pass a tefillin booth or similar, and the Lubavicher manning it apparently wants to make an impression on the people with him, so he calls out to me – an obviously chassidic non-Lubavitch type – and makes a comment ‘demonstrating’ how he and his cohorts are better than us lesser Yidden.
I have NEVER been the one to start the ‘altercation’.”
Interesting. Not in my experience, or knowledge of communal affairs. Maybe you’re by one of the 3 or so Meshichist yeshivos in America.
CSParticipantArso,
“ That’s not the reaction I get when I get accosted by Lubavichers who try to prove to me that the LR is Mashiach, and I’m not talking about infrequent cases.”
Unless you live in Israel I find this hard to believe that someone comes up to you and starts off with this. As MS said
CSParticipantCA
“And this is why it’s a shame you don’t have a live rebbe because he’s not around to tell you what to do so your chassidus can’t fix it because he didn’t tell you to
על אלה אנחנו בוכי׳”
Ironically this is exactly the point. The Rebbe told us all the sparks have been elevated already, and Moshiach has been appointed and has already started his tasks. By the responsibility for bringing the geula here lies on the nation.
Basically he cannot complete his task without us. Which is a big chiddush.
In the times of Moshiach, we ask Hashem daily to return our Judges and advisors. Judges to pasken Halacha and advisors to help you get there personally (mashpia). Note that there is no request for policeman. We will not need policeman when Moshiach comes, because our whole interest will be לדעת את הוי׳.
The Rebbe taught that Geula is a gradual process that we bring through our avoda in golus.
Therefore, if you will only do what you should due to external communal pressure/ Halacha policeman etc., you are not ready for geula! Or should I say, you are not living in a geula mind space/ life style.
And we have been tasked with this mission- to live Yiddishkeit inside out. Appointing a personal Rav and Mashpia and consulting with them because you care.
Is it easy as a community? No. Is everyone under the name Chabad achieving this? No, not yet. Is this necessary, and the order of the day? 💯
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