Forum Replies Created
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AuthorPosts
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CSParticipant
Yb,
“ Was there no group of people thirsting for geula like you, in the whole 1900 plus years since the Hurban ?
Would you feel comfortable to answer ‘yes’ to the above question ?”
I cannot put myself in the mindset of our people t throughout our entire golus. Maybe there was speculation (as there was by the third Chabad Rebbe) but nothing came of it, and it died out.
Other factors: for much of our history, world Jewry was separated. Ashkenazim hardly knew of the Rambam, and Sephardim hardly knew of Rashi. Which would make speculation unlikely.
Also, for much of our history, there wasn’t much time for any speculation when we were just busy with literal survival.
All I can do is explain the mindset of today’s Chabad…
CSParticipantCa,
“ יחי אדוננו מורינו ורבינו מלך משיח לעולם ועד printed on everything from yarmulkes to booklets printed from 770 to any sign you see in ארץ ישראל with the rebbes image
You can’t be serious”
Of course yechi is well known. I just thought it meant ma zaro bachayim af hu bachayim, until I requested a thorough education on the topic when I was asked about this being literal by other Chassidish (not Chabad) girls I meant.
Really not a focus in our education as a community. There are a select few schools in America, and I know Israel is known for being more into it, but even the ones I know, it’s definitely not the primary focus. A detail of a detail.
CSParticipantArso,
“ I didn’t deny that Lubavich had the major share of underground limud Torah in Russia. Rather, I was arguing that they weren’t the only ones.”
Thanks for clarifying. For the sake of honesty and closure as well as my own curiosity, please do find me the numbers, names etc or even groups in cities of the individuals you are referring to. I’d love to fact check it with the Zaltzmans who were there learning underground at the time.
CSParticipantArso,
Or should I say more important things (there’s pretty much always what to do, but it’s ok not to wash dishes at this time of my night…)
CSParticipantArso,
“ Where is CS? I can think of a few options:
1. Not feeling well c”v or some other problem not giving her the time to reply.
2. Looking for a way out of admitting that Habadpedia falsified and misinterpreted quotes to push their own agenda.
3. Avoiding the issue because she knows that Habadpedia is lying, and (being a Lubavicher) she can’t admit that a quasi-official Lubavich website would lie.
4. Being totally stunned into realizing that she has been brainwashed all these years into believing anything that has been quoted.I certainly hope it’s not no. 1, and I would really like it to be no. 4, but I doubt it. At any rate, I would really like to hear what she has to say about it.”
This is funny, I thought you’d appreciate the break after I went completely overboard with my time last motzei shabbos as you said.
CSParticipantArso,
“I specifically asked you to comment on my demonstrating that Habadpedia was misquoting for their own purposes, and now we have two days of your radio silence! Are you trying to prove us correct when we assert that when Lubavichers can’t provide a satisfactory answer, they just ignore the facts?”
My radio silence has nothing to do with the above- I just am exploring new levels of keeping away from addiction of any sort… from the yetzer hara to more subtle forms of giving time here when I have other things to be done…
CSParticipantYb,
“ What happens when there is no satisfactory answer ?
Should we accept an unsatisfactory answer, just out of fear not to be labeled ‘hater’ ?
Or do we have the right to insist on proper answers ?”No keep asking, sincere people can handle it. The problem is only when the only association one has with any particular group is listing problems they have, and when addressed, just go to the next. Anti semitism works the same way, no?
CSParticipantYb,
“What did your rebbi say on purim 1956 [or another one of those years] about the hazon ish ?
The exact words , please ?
and what was the insinuation, please ?
Thanks in advance for your honesty .”I looked this up I think a few years ago when I saw it here (probably). The Rebbe was quoting, in the very early years, at a small farbrengen, what a mashpia had said regarding the Chazon Ish, that even someone such as he, would be jealous in gan Eden of a little boy learning Chassidus (I hope I’m paraphrasing correctly.) the context was the greatness of Chassidus, not denigrating misnagdim.
Now, if the Rebbe treated others outside lubavitch, disdainfully in general, I could see how this story could be brought as proof of that. The fact that the Rebbe cared for others outside lubavitch is widely known and documented in books and videos (yes by lubavitch organizations, but the people are videoed and pictured by name.)
And again, The context was the greatness of Chassidus.
This reminds me of another Chassidishe teaching that the loftiest Malach would give up everything for a single amen Yehei Shmei Rabba by a yid.
The intent there too, is not to denigrate the Malach…
CSParticipantArso,
“ So here is where you have been fooled:
1. The sefer Kehillas Yaakov is talking specifically and only about Rebbi Yehudah Hanossi. There were nesi’im in E”Y both before and after Rebbi Yehudah Hanassi, and he is NOT even referring to any of them.
2. The part of the footnote from Habadpedia that continues about nishmoso kelulah, has nothing to do with the sefer Kehillas Yaakov, and it is in fact from Iggeres Hakodesh (of the Baal Hatanya) in relation to Yaakov Avinu. Not in relation to anybody else since! (In Iggeres Hakodesh he uses that terminology first in relation to Adam Harishon, and he then says it applies as well to Yaakov Avinu, but it stops there.)”Thanks for looking it up. I agree with you that if that is what the sefer says it is misleading in this context. I got it from a short page on the various sources on nossi hador, so although it fits into the topic, it doesn’t fit into the context of this discussion.
CSParticipantArso,
CS: Couldn’t resist this one. If you’re referring to this forum, the pattern has always been, people asking a Lubavitcher on a random thread about a completely different topic, “do you believe the Rebbe is Moshiach? How do you explain the Atzmus sicha?
“Do you mind having a look at who started this thread?”
As if you don’t know that it was in continuation to that last one, and just wanted to clear up some possible misconceptions on posts that were approved before it was shut down…
CSParticipantArso,
“Which mekubalim?”
Apparently (yes this is in zichronos- you’re welcome to do your own research as desired) after shabsai Tzvi, there was a split among yidden with some forbidding the study of Kabbala entirely (and they later opposed Chassidus). The ones who did encourage the study of Kabbala (as appropriate), were the ones who also generally encouraged women’s learning. It’s also well known that the Maharal gave his fiancé Pearl a learning program, and she later said she never learned less than 5 hours a day.
So this all predates Sara schenirer, but in any case, yes, most communities now encourage the girls learning of Torah shebaal peh (including rashi etc), The question is only to what extent.
And what I said about Chassidus still holds even workout that. The same way women always needed to learn halacha lmaase, ahavas Hashem and yiras Hashem, and yedias Hashem are actual mitzvos that women are mechuyav in.
CSParticipantArso,
“ You really don’t get it?! Since when was there a significance to dor shevi’i? Didn’t it only become significant when the LR decided that he was Mashiach, and he then used ‘dor shevi’i’ to refer to himself?”
The Medrash came up with kol shviin chavivin. And the Rebbe was a person who had communication with the realms above, so yea, he was about to tell us where we are holding whether as a generation, or to help individuals etc.
CSParticipantArso,
I must protest your general denigration of an entire demographic of baalei teshuva. Baalei teshuva turn their entire lives over for Hashem, sometimes unfortunately against their families will, and have a burning sincerity that guides all they do. As a demographic, they are much more sincere and driven than the ffb population. Many ffb continue whatever they grew up with, at their comfort level, whereas baalei teshuva are willing to go as far as they can to get closer to Hashem.
Once someone asked the Rebbe of the advisability of admitting their children to our schools, and the Rebbe stopped him with the clear message that these are my children.
The challenge is that many times they are lacking the support they need to fully integrate into the regular frum standards etc. This is mainly due to the impossibility of the bt schools/ campus shluchim etc keeping up with each alumnus when there are kah so many. So once they’ve learned the basics and left home/ school, they’re pretty much on their own, and it’s up to each one to find their own support which can be challenging when you don’t have family connections and are not familiar with the frum world. Some are a bit clueless as to why certain social norms out standards matter, as there’s only so much they can learn in the time they have in school, and they focus on shabbos/ Kashrus, Chassidus (which continues the flame for the commitment burning) etc.
Another challenge is that due to their background, it is often hard for bt to reach the level of refinement that ffb hopefully grew up with.
I’ve heard a lubavitch mashpia speak on this, encouraging bts to move back to where they started off so they can continue their growth there under the shluchim they started off with.
But there are many baalei teshuva who do fully integrate, and as a demographic, they contribute so much with bringing Yiddishkeit with their fire and sincerity to places not so accessible for ffb Chabad, whether it’s on shlichus (different when you’ve grown up not frum and can fully relate), business, and so many creative forms of business, etc etc.
There are few ffb who can match baalei teshuva in their sincerity and drive- only those who have similarly worked on themselves in their Avodas Hashem to this degree.
They add so much to our community, and whereas a lack of something in a bt is usually due to ignorance, or lack of support, ffb children can go the same way without that excuse.
CSParticipantArso,
“ Re women’s tznius. I don’t care what is in the woman’s heart (although we have a rule האדם נפעל כפי פעולותיו, and good actions will bring to good intentions). A woman who is ‘chassidish’ in her heart, and does not ‘fake’, but dresses un-tzniusdik, is being machshil many men daily. A woman who is ‘forced’ into being tznius, is saving men from being nichshal, regardless of her behavior at home.”
Agreed, however this doesn’t define communal yiras shomayim or even tznius for that matter. Shaul hamelech and kimchis were called tznuim because of what they did in private out of a real sense of tznius- yiras shomayim. Dress is only one factor, an important one, but cannot be used to define the communal level of yiras shomayim when done for external reasons.
CSParticipantArso,
“ I think the reason is twofold:
1. We can’t be too frum because of the baalei teshuvah,
2. We don’t want to look as extreme as other chassidim.”This is not true. We start tznius at 3 for example, and a Lubavitcher was trying to shop for her daughter in boro park and was surprised at the lack of selection for her three year old. When she asked the shop lady, she was told, “we’re not lubavitch.” We take pride in upholding the top standards in yiddishkeit and valuing hiddur Mitzvah. But of course, everyone is at their own place in this journey- there are many who are careful and enjoy keeping up as much as they can and know, and others who are holding at a different place, but still cherish the mitzvos / standards they do etc.
We don’t take down our mechitzas at Chabad houses for fear of what the community say, and we don’t lower our personal standards for fear of others.
“ The problem is that there are many fully-fledged Lubavichers, including shluchim and their families, who have downfalls in these areas. I can overlook what the baalei teshuvah do, but not shluchim and their kids, and there are many who have, shall we say, ‘strayed’ in some important areas.
In general, it’s the fully-fledged that I am referring to and disappointed in
I think every community and individual have their areas that can use strengthening, and this is not unique to lubavitch. I have been to both kinds of homes. I haven’t seen bochurim/ girls at the same table, but have seen marriageable age at the same table separated by married couples. Could be these families are operating in guidance I don’t know about. I try to focus on my own decisions:)
CSParticipantArso,
“ I know the engaged couple are encouraged to live in different cities, but they so so (the repletion was deliberate) often don’t.”
Those who care, are in touch with a mashpia about their specific situation, and receive personalized guidelines. I know many who do separate to different cities as a matter of course, including my husband and myself when we were engaged. Those who don’t care have bechira chofshis, and we as a community do what we can to live as a dugma chaya and inspire others, wherever they may be at.
CSParticipantArso,
“ Not coming from Russian stock I can’t argue with that, but from what I’ve heard Karlin and Litvishe will indeed argue.”
There’s really nothing to argue about. Denying this while the adults who learned/ taught underground is tantamount to Holocaust denial while there’s still survivors. Unless there’s something I don’t know but this is history. If you have names of networks- the people involved, which chasidus they belonged to, and which places they operated, please do post. I know of one non lubavitch teacher who taught within the Lubavitcher network.
Rabbi yoseph Zaltzman of Toronto once went to a wedding where he was told that there was a lady from Russia who knew of others operating there. He went to her and asked her details, she told him it was the Zekainim of the city. He asked who these zekainim were and she had to admit they were lubavitch but the others in her community preferred when she called them zekainim…
CSParticipantArso,
“ (If I didn’t believe that CS is an honest, but misguided, woman, I would suspect that she wrote so much just to shut me up. But I don’t think she did.) ”
Appreciated, just was responding to the posts I missed that week:)
“ Perhaps you would care to explain how a “child can have a proper chinuch” if he has an unfiltered smartphone. Could you be mechanech a child while he is in a church praying to osoi ho’ish?”
Giving a child a smart phone that isn’t filtered or supervised is like giving him a gun. We treat this issue very seriously but every family ultimately makes their choices. I have a low level filter on my phone (otherwise I couldn’t do what I needed to), but my kids only get my phone for Tzivos Hashem missions (supervised), or to play music from Torah box when it’s locked. I am looking to upgrade my filters though, and we have an appointment with tag. I have a friend who has chosen not to have a smartphone or WhatsApp at all, which is rare with the younger generation (more common with those older.) but yes, of course a smart phone is dangerous, and we need to be aware and protect.
I do think it’s different than tv, because tv is only for entertainment purposes and there’s really no justification for it. Whereas a smartphone is very utilitarian, and there are many ways to help oneself keep it to that. Like focus mode. Also, I generally stay away from you tube and Spotify (except ad free podcasts) due to ads, but now I’ve discovered 613tube so I can gain from you tube without the garbage. I’ve chosen chrome over other browsers for my Internet on my laptop, so I have a clean page to work with. Etc etc. But this is all my personal choice, and the Rebbetzin of my community and I were just discussing today how to create awareness and education in the general community and high school girls, because, as she said, it’s not enough that ani es nafshi hitzalti.
This is a relatively new thing, and now the yeshivos are educating about it (for later on), and people are learning and discovering for themselves.
CSParticipantYb
“ Clue for some evidence – this looking for candidates policy – does it happen to overlap with those who happen to promote a specific candidate ?
Lubavitch in general is not obsessed with the idea that the Rebbe is Moshiach- were lucky if you learn it in school. It’s Moshiach and geula in general and this is one little detail that makes it more real for many. Personally, I’m always looking out for Moshiach/ geula news, whether it’s that I just found my first young 100 year old (Walter Bingham), the war and arousal as a potential great shofar, and of course, if there’s news of a person who fits the candidate criteria, I’m all ears to find out more (obviously referring to not lubavitch here)…
CSParticipantYb,
“ You are the only group who imposes YOUR leader as navi, HALACHICALLY OBLIGATING , US [on the pain of mita byedei shamayim] to obey his directives.”
Never heard of this. To the best of my limited knowledge this would only be applicable if a big body of rabbis (Sanhedrin?) would pasken that this is the case. There’s no threat here, only positive motivation.
“You are the only group who says that YOUR leader is greater than Moshe Our Teacher [who spoke with God peh el peh]”
No, the only thing I’ve learned in this regard is that we can appreciate Moshe s greatness, through seeing what his extension is via our Rebbe. So, IT could be my appreciation of my Rebbe is greater than another Jews appreciation of Moshe.
Now obviously if the Rebbe does turn out to be Moshiach, as in builds the Beis HaMikdash, defeats our enemies etc, as per the Rambam regarding Moshiach Vadai, he will in many aspects be much greater than Moshe, as everyone, from Avraham Avinu down, will learn from Moshiach after they have techias hameisim. Moshiachs Neshama is the only one to derive from Adam Kadmon, higher than Atzilus.
The question would then be if The Rebbe was granted this Neshama already by his initial revelation. I suspect not, as this whole post Gimmel Tammuz period proves. My sense is that this Neshama will shine so great that there will be no questions about who he is. And we have this time to prepare. But that’s the only place where that would come in. And Moshe still had higher Nevuah than Moshiach will have, right?
CSParticipantYb:
“ THIS WHOLE IDEA IS TOTALLY ABSENT IN KLAL YISRAEL > SAVE FOR ONE GROUP…….”
I hear your point. Like I said, looking for a candidate I think only comes from enhanced awareness and thirsting for geula. Its not like there is a specific Torah based mesora (some minhagim justify why Minhag is the same letters as gehennom, while others we would be moser Nefesh for), that we should NOT look for candidates, unless you know otherwise. As well really are, according to Gedolei Yisrael of all streams, afaik, on the cusp of geula, this to me would seem to be the normal reaction of those tapped in to the mindset, which the Rebbe worked very hard to instill in us (and I’m not talking about the Rebbe as Moshiach here, just general thirsting and excitement for geula. Which itself brings it closer.)
CSParticipantArso,
Forgot to mention. Of course Chessed starts at home, and The Rebbes involvement in all matters of world Jewry did not detract from his leadership of Chabad, in fact it enhanced it. Baalei teshuva probably make up at least 50% of Chabad today. When the Rebbe unveiled his vision for dor shvii in his inaugural maamar, there were 100 or so Chassidim there, many survivors of the Soviet Union. They had no idea how they would change the world. Today of course, this is fact, and the tremendous expansion of Chabad, both shluchim and Anash, post Gimmel Tammuz. even without the Rebbes physical hand holding, are only testament of what the Rebbe gave us.
CSParticipantDaMoshe- I was not looking to put down satmar or anyone else. I meant that each group has their focus and that’s what they do. Any yid can benefit from satmars bikur cholim (great chessed!) and that doesn’t mean that anyone can call up satmar/ Rebbe with any need bgashmius uvruchnius and they’ll consider it their responsibility to help supply it. This isn’t limited to satmar as stated.
CSParticipantArso,
“1. If the rebbe was a baal machlokes with many other recognized gedolei Yisroel, or if he consistently denigrated them.”
I would think this is referring to someone else… please show me your examples of the Rebbe starting on another Gadol BYisrael (not responding mildly to an attack on himself as the leader of Chabad.)
CSParticipantArso, regarding nossi,
I don’t think the following sefer is lubavitch (Rashi quoted as well). In addition I’m glad you looked it up- you would have found sources all over Chabad through all the generations about the concept- this isn’ta new thing of the Rebbe, which was the main criticism.
נשיא, ראשי תיבות: ניצוצו של יעקב אבינו, שיעקב “נשמתו כלולה מכל הנשמות שבישראל” (מופיע בספר קהלת יעקב מערכת “רבי”).
CSParticipantArso,
“Aha! So the proof is something “investigated” by someone who was a known meshichist even before it was at all popular. He dispassionately proved beyong a shadow of a doubt that the LR is descended ben achar ben from Dovid Hamelech. Right. And I’m going to believe him. In non-Lubavich circles he is known as a nutcase. (Mods, if you don’t approve of that term, please alter it to something suitable that retains that meaning.)”
He actually concluded the Rebbe was descended on both sides. I don’t expect you to believe him on his word, I wouldn’t either blindly believe anyone with a bias in their field, but as I said he referenced so many sources I’m not familiar with, that I was overwhelmed. I’d love for someone with an interest to look them all up:).
CSParticipantArso,
“I apologize for what I’m about to say, but you are getting really annoying! What proof do you have that he cared about every Jew any more than any other tzaddik does? Because he said so? ”
I think there are many factors.
1) personal time and investment into the needs of every Jew. Some examples: Holding yechidus 3x per week (if I’m not mistaken, definitely 2) throughout all hours of the night (Rabbi Shmuel lew was personally in yechidus at 6am) and then keeping up his normal demanding schedule that same morning on. Later on, the sheer numbers of people were incompatible, so that’s when he instituted dollars, a shorter form of yechidus for 1000s.
Additionally the Rebbe responded to thousands + Of letters that came in from all Jews. The Rebbe spent hours learning but also made time to respond to these and urgent calls that came in all hours of day and night.
The workload and personal responsibility were so great that the Rebbe never went on vacation or took a break. He only left NYC three times to visit newly instituted camps (that’s how seriously the Rebbe viewed children’s chinuch and safety.) even when recovering from a heart attack and after a stroke, The Rebbe refused to take a break because of the seriousness he viewed it.
2) The Rebbes care and concern for the Klal and individual. Whether it was the bochur the Rebbe dispatched early in the am to knock precisely at 6am on a man’s door and put on/ deliver tefillin, because the man had been by yechidus that night and the Rebbe had extracted a promise the man would put on tefillin, but only at 6 precisely, the people the Rebbe dispatched to bring women candles to light for shabbos in the hospital, The Chossid who the Rebbe asked to make a stopover in a random country until he met a Jew who had given Hashem a deadline for a sign He’s there so he shouldn’t convert, the boy who the Rebbe prepared for his fathers passing, and the countless others who got brachos and advice for recovery, and conversely the Rebbes clear guidance for matters of Yiddishkeit, political, military etc leadership, such as the many meetings with top brass or their agents in Israel, The advice to a soldier to bring some ruchnius to the bases, advising Rabbinical leadership etc etc. Whether an individual or leader, the Rebbe empowered each individual to light up his or her part of the world in a practical way.
3) The sheer breadth of the Rebbes guidance. He didn’t suffice with a general bracha or wish for people, rather he knew exactly what to do in each situation. If it was about Avodas Hashem, The Rebbe provided a clear roadmap. With health as well. And with security, politics, The finances of Eretz Yisrael, he was intimately familiar with the particulars of each situation and how to lead. although he never visited Eretz Yisrael, he could and did describe any neighborhood or security layout as needed.
In conclusion, unlike the warped view of a vain leader, to quote Rabbi Jonathan Sacks (who the Rebbe propelled on his journey to what he became) “other leaders create followers. The Rebbe creates leaders.”
CSParticipantArso,
“Can you supply sources for the claims made about Rashi and the Or Hachaim above. And, of course, I mean non-Lubavich sources?”I think this is common info. I didn’t learn it in a sicha, I think The Or hachaim thing I learned in intro to learning his peirush in Chumash class. Rashis daughters also well known- it’s in the non lubavitch film Rashi- I know I’m not supplying a real source- but you can Google or something.
“As to the Baal Hatanya’s grandmother, would I be wrong in assuming that the source is the memoirs of the Rayatz? As I have shown in the past the stories cited there are allegorical and cannot be taken as cold hard facts.”
I’m sorry you personally decided this because of your third grade science knowledge of how shade works on sundials. This is part of Lubavitch’s history, and yes we do take zichronos literally, certainly about our own history.
“One other question, does the Baal Hatanya in Hilchos Talmud Torah refer to women learning Torah sheb’al peh?”
No idea, that’s usually studied by the men.
CSParticipant“ 2) Often, similar to new baalei teshuva, the family of a new Lubavitcher was very nervous about the change and often something so blatant as changing one’s garments could set off bitter family strife.”
Hear hear. I’m friendly with a family who taught Chassidus to those searching for it from other kreizen. My friend who I mentioned earlier, is lubavitch but dresses like her families group for this reason precisely, and her parents are very happy.
CSParticipantHaLeivi- I also didn’t mean it in the stupid sense. I meant it sincerely. My parents turned over their entire lives to become frum. If I had found another path in Yiddishkeit that was definitely superior in its kirvas Elokim than what I’ve experienced in lubavitch, I would definitely consider it. Fact is, more and more, I see my derech as being the best in promoting true yiras shomayim for those interested. If someone else would feel differently, I’d be fascinated and look forward to an interesting discussion and exchange of view points, openmindedly.
CSParticipantHaLeivi,
“ You know, plenty of Chaddarim have internal feelings of pride, or of absolute truth. This is actually ok when you keep it to yourself. It stands to reason that, being that you cannot be in multiple tracks at the same time, you tend to view your current track as the only viable one. And for you, it is actually true — since it would be counter-productive to take on both.
But the trick is: Keep it to yourself!”
We generally do tend to keep it to ourselves. Except when we’re scoffed at. Then you get a taste of our pride in our derech.
CSParticipantYb
“ There is no source whatsoever for this idea that we are meant to ‘look for candidates’ for M.
Nor is there any source that we should promote anyone’s ‘candidacy’.
This is totally HKBH’s job.”Where is your source for this assertion? You know it’s actually pretty common among many frum Jews, or at least was, to dread Moshiach’s coming instead of eagerly anticipating it. This is not in line with Torah, to the best of my knowledge, in fact the Rambam has a harsh term for such a person.
If geula is real to you, and you eagerly anticipate Moshiach’s coming every day, you will be on the lookout for potential candidates as a natural result. I’ve been curious about the yanuka when I heard such rumors, and I’m always keeping an ear open for geula related news.
This would seem to be the natural Torah position (in addition to what’s already posted regarding the Rambam being a Halacha lmaase sefer).
Yes if a seeming candidate turns out to be a false call, then Rabbanim need to correct it. Shabsai tzvi ate chelev, pronounced the shem hameforesh, and converted to Islam. Obviously this isn’t Moshiach. But before that many Rabbanim went along with it. The Rambam also endorsed Bar koziva before he blasphemed. Then he retracted. Obviously yoshka was never considered seriously as Moshiach material. But when the yidden had hope, they went along with it enthusiastically.
CSParticipantYb
“ 2] CS wrote that non habad women MAY fall into watching non Jewish movies .
So MAY the habad women .
Is there any evidence of increased prevalence in the case of non habad women ?
Based on anecdotal evidence it might be just the opposite.”You’ll have to remember this was said in response to Arso who claimed that lubavitch is way behind in yiras shomayim than other groups. My point was other groups demand external appearances etc (with repercussions) and so even someone dressed perfectly may still be tempted to watch movies and other undesirable things/ behaviors. Whereas in Chabad you pretty much see what you get- in fact we overall tend to dress more modern than our personal standards are, than the other way around.
Of course we also have people who are modern, and unfortunately go off. We are not immune, but I would say our yiras shomayim is at least comparable if not better overall, taking into account that many aren’t ffb, certainly not for generations.
“3] CS insinuated that non habad rebeim and rabanim do not feel responsibility for klal yisrael .”
I think this was an obvious fact-Chabad reaches all Jews wherever they’re at. This doesn’t mean satmar provides bikur Cholim packs only to satmar or zaka only treat one type of Jew. Au contraire. But they are not looking, nor are equipped to help every Jew with every issue, spiritual or physical, the way the Rebbe led. If you don’t know what I mean, you can see the my encounter videos from jem from every walk of life, or open the igros kodesh of the Rebbe for that matter. This is not a slur on others, it’s just extraordinary leadership.
CSParticipantLooks like I have a few minutes…
Just to clarify, when I wrote about only lubavitch women having the fire etc, it doesn’t mean that I think there are no women with yiras shomayim outside of Chabad cvs. I have experience mixing with many women outside Chabad, and I guess a good example would be a family friend who never was educated properly with Torah (from that group…) and she is sincere and wants to grow, so she learns a line about Emuna and bitachon daily with a story.
That’s really beautiful and she is sincere, but because she didn’t learn (not because were better by nature cvs) it doesn’t mean she’s not into buying fashion brands, or wouldn’t be tempted by a movie on a airplane say… whereas by learning Chassidus of my own volition, I’m in a completely different headspace. That’s what I’m saying. I have met one person in my city, frum city, so far, outside of lubavitch, that seems to click with me on a yiras shomayim level… She is fascinated by Chassidus- there’s a depth there that she doesn’t have. We mutually respect each other, and we’ve hung out, and are so curious to learn about the other. She asked me why I send my kids to lubavitch school when it’s so far away. I said it’s important that chinuch values at school and home are the same. She said they don’t really have that in the heimish world in her experience- all the Chassidish girls go to school with other frum girls, and make friends based on frumkeit or personality. There’s nothing in their family minhag that makes a difference to their outlook on life. I found that fascinating, but it’s not the first time I’ve heard it.
Regarding the Soviet Union- lubavitch also lost many of its youth to communism. The difference is they were the only Chassidus that were able to maintain organized Yiddishkeit underground for decades. It’s the fire one imbibes from Chassidus…
CSParticipantSo now I’ve caught up on page 5. Enough time spent… iyH will continue a different time.
CSParticipantYb
“ The people who undertook this concerted effort to push such delusional statements on to the public , are the ones who opened themselves up to the public square , and should be prepared to undergo a fact based ,open and honest evaluation by the very public on whom these assessments are being pushed .”
Couldn’t resist this one. If you’re referring to this forum, the pattern has always been, people asking a Lubavitcher on a random thread about a completely different topic, “do you believe the Rebbe is Moshiach? How do you explain the Atzmus sicha?
Then the Lubavitcher don’t understand why we’re switching topics and why you’re asking a question you don’t necessarily want the full answer to. I just say, np I’ll give you an answer.
Then we get called out like we’re pushing something on people. This is the pattern pretty much every time.
Remind me of the guy in London who a Muslim (just) told on a subway that his religion kills Muslims. The guy basically answered you don’t know what kind of person I am. The Muslim referenced the guys yarmulke, and the Jew for all upset and left the train.
If it were me, I’d ask the guy if he actually wants an answer or if he’s just an anti semite. It could end with me giving him a sheva mitzvos card, and explaining that in our religion, everyone can go to heaven, and there’sa special track for non Jews, who are meant to be non Jews (United they really want to convert.)
I think the mode of the day is to stop looking silly and emanated of who you are, and stand by what you wear and believe.
CSParticipantYb,
“
When will the habad apologists understand and agree that criticism does not necessarily equal hate ?
Don’t they realize that usage of the hate excuse , only showcases the weakness of their arguments ?”I think when the term hater is used, is when The person isn’t actually interested in an answer, and any answer you give will not be satisfactory. And even if it is, he just ignores it and brings up something else because it’s not really about the topic, it’s about his personal animosity to lubavitch.
To the best of my knowledge, you do not fit this description, but I could see why Menachem used the term for others.
CSParticipantAvira,
“ It doesn’t mean that if you yourself decided that something chazal forbid or at the very least, you’ll agree, discourage, should be a mitzvah, that Hashem will protect you from the damage that can come from it that is included in chazals own statements. Lubavitchers don’t get a special shmira more than anyone else.”
Again, this wasn’t something decided by women today. Rabbanim encouraged women to have a greater Torah education. My Rebbe wanted women to learn/ have access to all learning, generally, because of the different world states today(same reason as other Rabbonim.) This has nothing to do with feminism. I’m not interested in wearing Tallis and tefillin (in any case I get the Mitzvah by my other half fulfilling them.) it’s about what Hashem wants of me today (not 2000 years ago.) the Alter Rebbe writes that the Torah of the generation is revealed through the Rabbonim of the time. Obviously the mitzvos never change. But this isn’ta Mitzvah and Halacha does change by the situation.
CSParticipantArso,
“ To say that times have changed and women need it now implies that when Chazal said that it was not proper they did not take into account today’s women. Perhaps when they came up with the issur of, say, muktzeh, they also weren’t taking into account today’s generation.”
A. Was never a blanket rule (The mekubalim as a whole encouraged women’s education including gemara.)
B. Torah adapts to every situation, Halacha changes accordingly, Rabbanim decided overwhelmingly in favor of women’s Torah education today.
Lastly, the Rambam writes that everyone will be busy with knowledge of Hashem when Moshiach comes (pretty sure this includes goyim., and obviously women.) obviously your comment doesn’t relate to any of this.
CSParticipantArso
“ In other words, he eventually decided to invent the concept of dor shevi’i so that it would fit himself… which is exactly what I said.”
Not sure what you’re on about. This is basic math. The Alter Rebbe was Chabad Rebbe 1, so obviously the Rebbe is 7. What’s invented?
CSParticipantArso
“ That is so similar to my chassidus. Many of us eat on Yom Kippur so that those baalei teshuva who have not gone the whole way, and the Ffb who has chilled, are equally as part of the community as the most Chassidish. If we would enforce fasting on Yom Kippur it would turn people away, and that is the worst thing possible!”
I don’t know where you get this from. We’re all into holding the highest standards personally, but not enforcing communal repercussions that will result in leaving out many people who could otherwise be on the way up (or their children etc.) This is not the same as what you wrote here. I hope you understand that. Every chossid is meant to uphold the highest standards himself and keep growing along with embracing other Jews. You see this model more famously by the shluchim. They do not eat treif to attract people and they do not take down mechitzas as unpopular as it may be. Au contraire, people are attracted to the shluchim because of their combination of authenticity and loyalty to Yiddishkeit (not personal comfort) while being open and non judgmental to others.
CSParticipantHaLeivi,
Thank you. I find it ironic that Arsos seemingly biggest gripe with lubavitch is that we think the Rebbe was a bigger tzadik than others, while he himself regularly demonstrates the Rebbe shockingly, in a way that should really call out a machaa on a general basis, and ironically how we would never speak any his Rebbe whoever it is.
It’s nice to see another voice on this.Arso,
“ Delete those contacts because they are liars!”
Just for your info these are family friends in a well known chassidishe community (not lubavitch) who are non lubavitch Chassidim.
“ There is an implication there that is truly shocking! Tznius for women is NOT an “external factor”. It is quite possibly the number one mitzvah that women have, as with a lack of tznius women is machshil literally hundreds of men every day. And that is not even dealing with the ramification that “if Mrs So-and-so can dress this way, cerainly I can.”
I’m sorry you misunderstood. What I meant was that a Tznius lubavitch woman can be counted on to be a yarei shomayim through and through, because it is her choice to dress this way- and it can’t be compared to the many more strictly tznius women in other communities who are in many cases dressing because of social/communal pressure. Yes of course she gets the zechus of Tznius regardless, but it doesn’t mean she or her family is equally tznius behind closed doors.
Tznius is very important and the crown midda of women (not just externally but moreover internally.) we had a tznius class in high school, I have run a tznius club myself, have written 3 curricula for different settings on it, and ironically, I hear that those of us who did learn about it, have more appreciation for tznius than those who may dress the dress but have a negative feeling about it because of the community experience.
CSParticipantArso,
“ I disagree. The above is not the case for women. Women can reach true ahavah and yir’ah without learning, by fulfilling their mitzvos and trying to be כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה. Men have to learn, but it is the Torah that affects them, not davka learning about Hashem.”
I was going to list all my personal experiences but I’m not interested in speaking negative. Suffice to say I don’t find that to be the case. Only in lubavitch have I found the women have a passion for their Chassidus, and constantly farbreng on every medium they communicate with in hope to improve Avodas Hashem, or apply it to their lives, with a fire. It’s not hard to see the connection to how we are educated, and how we learn.
CSParticipantArso
“ As to the ‘psak’ against giving back land, do you seriously not realize that not everything that happened in farbrengens became a sicha?! It wasn’t a published sicha; it was what happened at a farbrengen. Ask people who should remember (I certainly do) and they’ll tell you all about it.”
I do know and see myself, how The Rebbe always spoke positive, and wished positive things to happen. Every sicha The Rebbe spoke in the later years about how it was the perfect date and parsha etc for the geula. Those were more Tefilla style, which usually started with vihi ratzon…
And then there were the statements of facts.
CSParticipantArso,
“ What you don’t realise is that for many of us, what constitutes “kol minei nevoloh” is far different to what you consider it. I’ll give you two examples. Amongst other chassidim, chassanim meeting their kallos after the engagement is non-existent or at the very least kept to a VERY bare minimum. In Lubavich it is unfortunately common practice. In Lubavich bochurim eating at the same table as non-related girls is acceptable. Not in other chatzeiros.”
This is a matter of minhagim. The minhag by us is to keep engagements very short (2-3 months) and to speak or
meet about once a week- with specific consultation with a mashpia for exact numbers. We also encourage the chosson and kalla to stay in different cities until the wedding.Other Chassidim by contrast have about a year’s engagement so extra caution would be required.
I have learned about separating boys and girls by meals, and we do this ourselves, although it seems for whatever reason, that it’s still common.In any case, it’s about caring to do what’s right, and following through, ie yiras shomayim. There are many groups within lubavitch (becoming frum, frum but not full standards, Lubavitch, chassidish, modern, going off) and the ones who care are definitely empowered to do what’s right and keep on growing from wherever they’re at.
CSParticipantArso:
“What percentage of unmarried kids in, say, Satmar, Belz, Ger, Vizhnitz, Tsanz etc have access to unfiltered internet and to unfiltered smartphones? Now what is the percentage in Lubavich? I don’t know figures, but I do know that the percentage in Lubavich is many many times greater than in the other groups. The same is unfortunately true with kids – even kids of committed shluchim – going OTD. (If you deny any of this I will conclude one of two things: either you are lying outright or you are completely insane. I KNOW exactly what I am talking about, and I have been asked many times to deal with the problem specifically in Lubavich. I’m sure you’re surprised at that, but it’s true.)”
A gutte voch from my locality. Like I said, you cannot compare numbers where one group- everything is legislated from above, and those who do not keep the standards, do what they do, under cover, so they don’t suffer communal repercussions, (yes I have personal knowledge of this as well), and a community (us) where the responsibility lies with the individual to care and guidelines are suggested but not enforced (so that every child can have a proper chinuch for example.)
I was discussing this with a very frum local woman, not lubavitch, and she said lubavitch is ahead of the game, because in the rest of the chareidi world, the top down system is in danger because devices are so accessible.
My relative- who dressed more modern than he looked was told by a family friend’s son, in probably one of the most enclosed Chassidusin, that he has a smartphone with WhatsApp groups with all the hot stuff with his young feelings…
My relative was surprised because obviously the outside impression didn’t match, and ironically, he didn’t share this fascination with the “hot stuff” despite the fact he looked more modern.
Take this as an illustrative example. No I am not suggesting that there are no true Yarei shomayim in the other communities, but rather you cannot judge because of the different cultures, and ultimately, they’re more vulnerable than we are.
In my case, my husband and I experimented with the different limited filtering options available on our iPhones when we got married, and found the highest one too restrictive, so we settled for basic. This was not to prevent us for searching forthings we shouldn’t, because we had no interest in that. Rather we didn’t want to be surprised with vulgar sites that appeared to be something else. This is how it’s been for years, and we’ve learned more and more how to use our phones and move away from our phones using us (focus mode, 613tube, passion for learning etc etc), and now we’ve recently found a new interest in filters and bH to our luck, tag has told us that there is a new filter which is more smart at blocking out not tznius images or ads that pop up, while still allowing websites so we’re excited to try it out.
I know in the local Mesivta they teach the boys about the concept of filters (although they probably allow smartphones then, as is general policy) and of setting up password buddies for each other.
So it’s not that we don’t care, but it comes from within and you cannot compare to your world.
The only fair comparison, I think, is when the Soviet Union took away the whole communal pressure system by exiting the Rav and Shochet etc to Siberia. What happened to Berdichov which was 80% frum Yidden? And Zhitomir, at least 50%? We all know that Lubavitch was the only one overall (I’ve heard of one non lubavitch teacher who taught in Chabad’s hidden chadarim), who not only didn’t go frei themselves but kept up Yiddishkeit and community life (Mikvah, shochet etc) underground with extreme mesirus nefesh.
Yes there are the modern within Chabad, and the ones who go off. We have bechira chofshis. But our modern dress that way etc.
CSParticipantArso,
“ Only Lubavich has this chauvinistic attitued, and, as I have written in the past, I believe it’s a crutch because they know that the chareidi world has JUSTIFIED complaints against them. By being insular and only thinking about Luabavich, you find it easier to ignore those complaints rather than rectify them”
I don’t know of others, but coming from lubavitch this definitely isn’t the sentiment. Lubavitch has been under attack from its very inception- the Alter Rebbe faced alot of scholarly opposition in Lita where he was sent, there was bitter hisnagdus which actually culminated (physically) in his arrest. There was peace in the time of the Tzemach Tzedek as everyone fought the Maskilim together. But yeah, sometimes in lubavitch we feel like “the Jews among the Jews” persecution wise. But we’re very proud of our Rebbeim and derech.
There’s a difference btw between personal pride and pride in one’s derech. As Jews were eschew gaava, yet we have Geon Yakov. Same here, as individuals, we know we are equal to every Jew, which is why we care to offer every Jew the opportunities we have to do a Mitzvah, and/ or learn Chassidus.
But we are extremely proud of our derech, and yes one of our songs is אשרינו י׳הודים אנו, ומה נעים חסידים אנו ומה יפה חסידי חב״ד של אדונינו מורינו ורבינו.
I don’t see why people find this offensive. If I found another derech to bring me much closer to Hashem, I would seriously consider it. I should hope everyone else feels the same about their derech. And if not, maybe it’s something for them to think about. Not us.
CSParticipantYb,
I don’t care about normative Judaism vs Chabad unless you can list sources. I gave Chabad’s reasoning for looking a candidate based on the Rambam being a practical Halacha sefer, and also showed you it’s not from just this generation.
Alright, that’s it for my time for now. So long till next time
iyHCSParticipantArso,
“ . As I have written a number of times, your rebbes are as much descendants of Beis Dovid as I, and possibly your won husband, are. No proof whatsoever. And, for your information, there are many gedolei Yisroel around today who are descendants of Beis Dovid, and although they may not be able to prove it 100% with witnesses, their claims have more base to it that Lubavich’s.”
Just because you haven’t bothered looking into it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I actually got the pages of a book written with so much info and references I couldn’t read it through to the end. You’re welcome to look them all up yourself. Problem is the book isn’t online. The title is yechi HaMelech HaMoshiach- by Rabbi Wolpo. If you want the page numbers, lmk:)
Btw thanks for reporting but I’m pretty sure the term Nassi wasn’t out of use for the last 1000 years. If you Google נשיא הדור חבדפדי׳ה you’ll get seforim listed, I don’t think they’re all that old.
CSParticipantYankel Berel:
“ All Rebeim are descendants of Beis Dovid .
But ONLY habad claims the title of Nasi .”News to me. I don’t think every Chassidic Rebbe descended from Malchus Beis dovid and you’re welcome to prove otherwise.
“AND ONLY HABAD CLAIMS THE TITLE OF
“Nasi HADOR”
The whole generation .
Without even asking the generation .
I consider myself part of the generation . But no one asked me …2] Are you insinuating other rebeim do not feel responsibility for all Jews ?????
Only the manhig of the habad hasidim does ?”Obviously every Mitzvah of every Jew affects Klal Yisrael. But yes, say Satmar is not looking to engage every Jew from all spectrums and bring them closer to Hashem. They focus on their own community. I do this too. I do my bit in my corner of the world and know that’s doing my part of the whole. Most leaders lead their community and that’s wonderful. In fact I think every group is like this, not unique to Satmar. Please show me another leader invested in caring for every Jew to help them with their issues and needs. This is something extra special and no I don’t see it anywhere else- you’re welcome to show me
posted with apologies to Satmar
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